EPTOn February 09 2024 19:09 Parser wrote:
I agree that Stormgate has a personality, something in it is "beautiful" and i do also agree that high level games played in the current version show potential. But... it lacks, at least for me, something that hooks me in. I have tried it several times, but i do not feel the desire to really go up the route of really learn it. For example, starting SC2 in 2010 i really wanted to play more of it, getting better while Stormgate does not give me this feeling
Show nested quote +
On February 09 2024 05:15 RogerChillingworth wrote:
Game does not play like a SC2 mod. It's also beautiful. It's just that some assets are unfinished or not yet textured. Have you seen the Vulcan? The Atlas? The swarmy Gaunts and Fiends with those giant, cool freaking Weavers stomping around? There's a lot of personality to this game and a lot more to come.
It really takes getting your hands dirty with the game and watching some really good players to fully grasp the goodness.
Give it a shot. Tune into the EGC tournament coming up! Competitive play is already really delivering for Stormgate imo.
EDIT: For the people with a lot of negative criticism, I'm curious how many games you've played and time you've spent with the game in general.
On February 09 2024 01:23 gTank wrote:
This guy gets it. Basically what I feel like this game will turn out to be something that could be a mod like starbow.
Also, the art style is very weird and "mobile games like", still this game runs worse than I expected it.
It is way too early to doom the whole project but there is lots of work to be done.
This is not an attack on the games or on anyone enjoying it, there are plenty of nice things happening but so far, it feels a bit bland.
On February 08 2024 12:05 WombaT wrote:
Variable turn rates alone goes a hell of a way, ofc animations too although the latter feel an area that’s noted as being very incomplete so there will be a lot of improvement there, hopefully, but I’ll be less critical of at this juncture.
I’ve yet to actually play, some limited stream viewing but it’s not quite the same, running out of time!
But even just watching a game or two from afar, I got this strange vibe that something was a bit off, and you and Hider articulate it well.
Art design is one piece of the puzzle, units moving in different ways at a fundamental level also adds a lot more character to a unit, as well as subtly different forms of micro.
To take one unit, an archer in WC3. Slow, pretty squishy, packs a punch.
One thing they can’t do is instantly turn on a dime. You can’t ’stutter step’ at a moment’s notice, it’s more of a slightly pre-emptive measure before some beefy grunts or other melee units are in range. Or alternatively you actively block paths with other units.
So with your archers you almost perform a staggered fighting retreat with small groups, pull a few back enough for them to get a shot off, pull the next group back, etc.
This isn’t necessarily ‘better’ than bio’s ’kite and fire basically infinitely if you’re good enough’ kind of micro, but it is certainly different. And back to your earlier point, critically it makes the Nelf archer feel like an actual archer.
Some units should be difficult to micro, or merely different for a very micro-based game to be interesting. Your big punchy siege engine should take a while to rotate to target, WC3 ones did that and it adds a bit of believability. Heavy, big units get that bit of weight. It adds small, small windows where an opponent can do something, even if it’s just disengaging.
This doesn’t mean wrestling with a wonky UI, or bad pathing or any of that fun stuff ofc!
On February 08 2024 08:09 LunarC wrote:
Exactly. Just moving a unit around should feel interesting. No more of this smooth gliding stuff. Why do Magnadons look like they're sliding over the ground? Make them feel heavy and stomp around. Why do Fiends glide over the ground? Make them feel like they're crawling around with their arms, lurching forward unevenly. I get the feeling the designers don't understand that you can add so much character to units just by how different they feel to control. It feels so weird to see bloated Brutes glide gracefully over the ground like a group of panthers.
edit: This is not just an animation problem. I want to see Fiends throw their arms out to lurch forward and have to slow down in between to alternate arms. These kinds of things require fundamental changes to the movement code.
edit2: And I do think this is a fundamental misunderstanding by the designers. Evidence is BW Zerglings actually hop around, they don't go from point A to point B in a smooth line. They felt like a pack of predators. But in SC2 they move at constant speed, sliding and gliding around. They feel like an amoeba. These are the same designers responsible for that change.
On February 08 2024 03:27 Hider wrote:
I would argue it looks like you take Starcraft 2 slowed down by 30-50% + a few more melee units relative to ranged units than most sc2 fights have.
Sure, it may have some small QoL improvements but that doesn't matter too much in the grand scheme.
In sc2 I believe the pace of the game functions as a bit of a bandaid for there not being enough micro to do in some engagements. (at least this was true pre LOTV). So by forcing players to do more stuff faster, it created a relatively high skill expression cap.
But when you give players excessive amount of time to do very basic thing/not reward players to do interesting, it becomes very dull. Getting the micro feeling right is the most imortant part about an RTS. Slowing down the game is fine, however, then you need to ensure there are enough new and fun micro interactions relative to Sc2.
On February 07 2024 18:15 Vindicare605 wrote:
I'm right there with you on this. This game just doesn't have a hook that makes me WANT to learn it. The units and maps don't look cool, the battles don't look cool, the gameplay is VERY familiar since it feels almost identical to Starcraft 2 except with very minor differences.
The economy is dumbed down and boring, the maps are boring, the idea of there being neutral creeps is COMPLETELY underused especially when compared to Warcraft 3.
The factions don't seem cool or interesting especially when there's zero lore or anything in the game that makes me want to care about which faction I want to play. They might as well just be different colored versions of the same race for all I care.
Sure it plays like an RTS, but so what? There's nothing here that makes me want to play this RTS instead of another round of SC2, or even booting up an older RTS like AoE2 which offers a different experience that doesn't feel exactly like Starcraft.
There's no selling point here for me except for who is making the game. If this wasn't FrostGiant I would have zero reason to give this game even a second glance in the steam store. It just doesn't offer anything that makes me want to play it in its current state, and it feels like it has a LONG LOOONG way to go before it does.
On February 07 2024 06:08 Hider wrote:
I think about it in this way: For me to spend time learning a new thing, there has to be a payoff. Something that motivates you to to learn and improve.
I watched some streams in the last beta, and even though I had a beta key, I simply couldn't be bothered to actually play the game. There was just nothing in it that made it interesting for me. Micro appears incredibly boring. In many fights I watched, there would be a big fight but almost no micro. Players would simply just stare at the battle and have no clue how to use their APM.
Why should I spend time learning this type of game when it appears there is no payoff that interests me?
On February 06 2024 19:38 Harris1st wrote:
For me it's a similar feeling but for completely different reasons: Somehow I can't be bother to learn the new controls, units, abilities and strategies. Maybe I'm just getting old and lazy. The game needs to give me a reason to do all that and rather start a game of SG than booting up SC2.
On February 06 2024 19:03 Vindicare605 wrote:
Try as I might, this game just doesn't appeal to me like even a little bit right now. The gameplay is similar enough to Starcraft 2 but lacking the polish and smoothness in gameplay, the aesthetic feels VERY bland and uninteresting, the economy feels overly simplified to the point of pointlessness, and the two factions just don't seem very interesting either.
Maps are small and boring, and the Co Op feels similar enough to SC2's co Op (except it's 3 player which is nice) that again it makes me wonder why am I playing this instead of just booting up SC2?
It doesn't help that my PC doesn't run this anywhere near as well as it runs SC2 and I hate its UI currently. Reminds me way too much of League of Legends in a bad way.
Might be that it's just too early to tell, and the game will improve a ton as it receives additional development time, but for what it is right now, I just don't have any enjoyment when playing it. Every game I play of it makes me think I'd be better off booting up SC2 and playing that instead.
Try as I might, this game just doesn't appeal to me like even a little bit right now. The gameplay is similar enough to Starcraft 2 but lacking the polish and smoothness in gameplay, the aesthetic feels VERY bland and uninteresting, the economy feels overly simplified to the point of pointlessness, and the two factions just don't seem very interesting either.
Maps are small and boring, and the Co Op feels similar enough to SC2's co Op (except it's 3 player which is nice) that again it makes me wonder why am I playing this instead of just booting up SC2?
It doesn't help that my PC doesn't run this anywhere near as well as it runs SC2 and I hate its UI currently. Reminds me way too much of League of Legends in a bad way.
Might be that it's just too early to tell, and the game will improve a ton as it receives additional development time, but for what it is right now, I just don't have any enjoyment when playing it. Every game I play of it makes me think I'd be better off booting up SC2 and playing that instead.
For me it's a similar feeling but for completely different reasons: Somehow I can't be bother to learn the new controls, units, abilities and strategies. Maybe I'm just getting old and lazy. The game needs to give me a reason to do all that and rather start a game of SG than booting up SC2.
I think about it in this way: For me to spend time learning a new thing, there has to be a payoff. Something that motivates you to to learn and improve.
I watched some streams in the last beta, and even though I had a beta key, I simply couldn't be bothered to actually play the game. There was just nothing in it that made it interesting for me. Micro appears incredibly boring. In many fights I watched, there would be a big fight but almost no micro. Players would simply just stare at the battle and have no clue how to use their APM.
Why should I spend time learning this type of game when it appears there is no payoff that interests me?
I'm right there with you on this. This game just doesn't have a hook that makes me WANT to learn it. The units and maps don't look cool, the battles don't look cool, the gameplay is VERY familiar since it feels almost identical to Starcraft 2 except with very minor differences.
The economy is dumbed down and boring, the maps are boring, the idea of there being neutral creeps is COMPLETELY underused especially when compared to Warcraft 3.
The factions don't seem cool or interesting especially when there's zero lore or anything in the game that makes me want to care about which faction I want to play. They might as well just be different colored versions of the same race for all I care.
Sure it plays like an RTS, but so what? There's nothing here that makes me want to play this RTS instead of another round of SC2, or even booting up an older RTS like AoE2 which offers a different experience that doesn't feel exactly like Starcraft.
There's no selling point here for me except for who is making the game. If this wasn't FrostGiant I would have zero reason to give this game even a second glance in the steam store. It just doesn't offer anything that makes me want to play it in its current state, and it feels like it has a LONG LOOONG way to go before it does.
I would argue it looks like you take Starcraft 2 slowed down by 30-50% + a few more melee units relative to ranged units than most sc2 fights have.
Sure, it may have some small QoL improvements but that doesn't matter too much in the grand scheme.
In sc2 I believe the pace of the game functions as a bit of a bandaid for there not being enough micro to do in some engagements. (at least this was true pre LOTV). So by forcing players to do more stuff faster, it created a relatively high skill expression cap.
But when you give players excessive amount of time to do very basic thing/not reward players to do interesting, it becomes very dull. Getting the micro feeling right is the most imortant part about an RTS. Slowing down the game is fine, however, then you need to ensure there are enough new and fun micro interactions relative to Sc2.
Exactly. Just moving a unit around should feel interesting. No more of this smooth gliding stuff. Why do Magnadons look like they're sliding over the ground? Make them feel heavy and stomp around. Why do Fiends glide over the ground? Make them feel like they're crawling around with their arms, lurching forward unevenly. I get the feeling the designers don't understand that you can add so much character to units just by how different they feel to control. It feels so weird to see bloated Brutes glide gracefully over the ground like a group of panthers.
edit: This is not just an animation problem. I want to see Fiends throw their arms out to lurch forward and have to slow down in between to alternate arms. These kinds of things require fundamental changes to the movement code.
edit2: And I do think this is a fundamental misunderstanding by the designers. Evidence is BW Zerglings actually hop around, they don't go from point A to point B in a smooth line. They felt like a pack of predators. But in SC2 they move at constant speed, sliding and gliding around. They feel like an amoeba. These are the same designers responsible for that change.
Variable turn rates alone goes a hell of a way, ofc animations too although the latter feel an area that’s noted as being very incomplete so there will be a lot of improvement there, hopefully, but I’ll be less critical of at this juncture.
I’ve yet to actually play, some limited stream viewing but it’s not quite the same, running out of time!
But even just watching a game or two from afar, I got this strange vibe that something was a bit off, and you and Hider articulate it well.
Art design is one piece of the puzzle, units moving in different ways at a fundamental level also adds a lot more character to a unit, as well as subtly different forms of micro.
To take one unit, an archer in WC3. Slow, pretty squishy, packs a punch.
One thing they can’t do is instantly turn on a dime. You can’t ’stutter step’ at a moment’s notice, it’s more of a slightly pre-emptive measure before some beefy grunts or other melee units are in range. Or alternatively you actively block paths with other units.
So with your archers you almost perform a staggered fighting retreat with small groups, pull a few back enough for them to get a shot off, pull the next group back, etc.
This isn’t necessarily ‘better’ than bio’s ’kite and fire basically infinitely if you’re good enough’ kind of micro, but it is certainly different. And back to your earlier point, critically it makes the Nelf archer feel like an actual archer.
Some units should be difficult to micro, or merely different for a very micro-based game to be interesting. Your big punchy siege engine should take a while to rotate to target, WC3 ones did that and it adds a bit of believability. Heavy, big units get that bit of weight. It adds small, small windows where an opponent can do something, even if it’s just disengaging.
This doesn’t mean wrestling with a wonky UI, or bad pathing or any of that fun stuff ofc!
This guy gets it. Basically what I feel like this game will turn out to be something that could be a mod like starbow.
Also, the art style is very weird and "mobile games like", still this game runs worse than I expected it.
It is way too early to doom the whole project but there is lots of work to be done.
This is not an attack on the games or on anyone enjoying it, there are plenty of nice things happening but so far, it feels a bit bland.
Game does not play like a SC2 mod. It's also beautiful. It's just that some assets are unfinished or not yet textured. Have you seen the Vulcan? The Atlas? The swarmy Gaunts and Fiends with those giant, cool freaking Weavers stomping around? There's a lot of personality to this game and a lot more to come.
It really takes getting your hands dirty with the game and watching some really good players to fully grasp the goodness.
Give it a shot. Tune into the EGC tournament coming up! Competitive play is already really delivering for Stormgate imo.
EDIT: For the people with a lot of negative criticism, I'm curious how many games you've played and time you've spent with the game in general.
I agree that Stormgate has a personality, something in it is "beautiful" and i do also agree that high level games played in the current version show potential. But... it lacks, at least for me, something that hooks me in. I have tried it several times, but i do not feel the desire to really go up the route of really learn it. For example, starting SC2 in 2010 i really wanted to play more of it, getting better while Stormgate does not give me this feeling
I hear you. Perhaps as more updates roll out it becomes more exciting.
I also feel like as we all get older, it's harder to be truly wowed by things. Or at least I feel this way. Stormgate attracts me because I do vibe with the 1v1 and am quite interested to explore the editor.
