EPTI love two things: grinding and painting the map. I also love engineering and building shit, but it won't be a major factor, sadly.
Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread - Page 323
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ChillFlame
308 Posts
I love two things: grinding and painting the map. I also love engineering and building shit, but it won't be a major factor, sadly. | ||
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Harris1st
Germany7262 Posts
On June 24 2026 01:39 Jeremy Reimer wrote: This is the whole issue in a nutshell. Frost Giant promised to make the next huge RTS. The other thing they promised was that it would be the next "Blizzard-style RTS", because as we all know, Blizzard abandoned the idea of making RTS games after releasing Starcraft II, the largest and most hugest and most successful RTS of all time. In hindsight, something nobody has really talked about in all these post-Mortems is what the hell a "Blizzard-style RTS" is even supposed to mean. Does it mean a fantasy game with a top-down view where you can only select four units at a time? Or a fantasy game with a higher selection limit that has three resources instead of two, and a strong emphasis on naval combat? Maybe it means a science-fiction game with an isometric view where you can select twelve units at a time. Or maybe it means a fantasy game where you are forced to have fewer numbers of units, combat takes longer, and the focus is on leveling up your powerful heroes by attacking creeps? My point is this: up until the release of Starcraft II, Blizzard changed the definition of what a "Blizzard-style RTS" was with every new RTS they released. They were constantly innovating and trying different ideas. Some of them stuck and some of them didn't. Which is how game development ought to work. But then Starcraft II blew up, and now everybody just wants it to be 2010 again. I mean, sure, 2010 was awesome. But you can't move forward by only looking backwards. Tim Morten couldn't even decide whether "Blizzard-style RTS" meant fantasy with heroes and creeps, or science fiction with no heroes and no creeps. So he thought, eh, why not both? After all, mashing together incompatible styles of games is always the way to guaranteed success! Right? The next "huge RTS" will be something that actually evolves the genre into the future by doing something different. Maybe it will be so different that it gets a whole new genre named after itself, like MOBAs did. That's a good question! We're currently trying to figure out the answer in this thread. In contrast to how other games and genre describe stuff ( for example souls-like) which describes how a game play or what it entails, I for one understand a "Blizzard style RTS" as a polished and refined RTS with a campaign,story, lore and cinematics as well as engaging versus mode. Doesn't matter if sci-fi or dark fantasy or realistic. doesn't matter if there are heroes or not. doesn't matter if one or four different ressources. EDIT: Also Blizzard kept "pushing the envelope" on something. Be it scale, controls, graphics or presentation | ||
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ChillFlame
308 Posts
Click translate on the first comment: "I am someone who participated as a concept artist for Stormgate. After last year's release, most of the team was laid off due to poor performance. Although it was late, I worked for nine months in a nearly empty office trying to somehow revamp the design. I know it is very late, but I would like to take this opportunity in the comments to express my gratitude for you experiencing even a little bit of the changes. As Agu said, it is true that RTS has fallen to an irreversible point since the emergence of MOBAs. They simply cannot compete in terms of multiplayer cooperative gameplay, accessibility, or development difficulty. To overcome all of this, we needed a clear vision, such as innovative gameplay that completely overhauled the game or attractive art... but our dreams were big, and our capabilities were woefully inadequate. I am simply grateful and sorry to the players who had such high expectations. Even though I say all this, I have joined a new job at a place that makes RTS games again. I hope to release a better game this time and see a positive response on Agu's channel. Regardless of the situation... I think there is a unique charm to RTS games where you build bases and manage armies in real-time. Thank you once again for your countless feedback, opinions, and love." Seems legit I love how they repeat Tim's narrative. Wasting rent money on the empty office isn't a problem. Damn MOBA games are a problem. :D | ||
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JimmyJRaynor
Canada17642 Posts
On June 24 2026 19:38 ChillFlame wrote: To overcome all of this, we needed a clear vision, such as innovative gameplay that completely overhauled the game or attractive art... but our dreams were big, and our capabilities were woefully inadequate. "big dreams" creates a massive smokescreen. Kramer has big dreams as well. It camouflages the fact that he accomplishes nothing. "big dreams" results in guys involved in the making of this "game" running around talking about how they failed ... but they failed heroically in the service of a noble, grandiose, important cause. Alas, Tim Morten and his soldiers are wounded warriors who fought the noble fight. Meanwhile, Rogue Command just released.. it was made by 2 guys and its better than Stormgate. Two guys IN THEIR SPARE TIME. Two guys outperformed a $40M budget and more promotional smoke than a California summer wildfire. And this story, of a David-team 100 times smaller outperforming a Goliath, has been played out 1000+ times since 1975. | ||
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ChillFlame
308 Posts
On June 24 2026 22:54 JimmyJRaynor wrote: "big dreams" creates a massive smokescreen. Kramer has big dreams as well. It camouflages the fact that he accomplishes nothing. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F7bKly7Od8M "big dreams" results in guys involved in the making of this "game" running around talking about how they failed ... but they failed heroically in the service of a noble, grandiose, important cause. Alas, Tim Morten and his soldiers are wounded warriors who fought the noble fight. Meanwhile, Rogue Command just released.. it was made by 2 guys and its better than Stormgate. Two guys outperformed a $40M budget and more promotional smoke than a California summer wildfire. And this story, of a David-team 100 times smaller outperforming a Goliath, has been played out 1000+ times since 1975. I love Rogue Command. It has some problems. It lacks a bit of polish, and some stuff, like attack priorities could use some work. Nevertheless, it is fun, I already spent 80h on it, and I'll definitely spend more. I can't say the same about SG I love AI in this game. It is such a menace :D It harasses your economy, tries to snipe your commander or gather big amounts of units to flank you. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland27032 Posts
On June 24 2026 18:33 Harris1st wrote: In contrast to how other games and genre describe stuff ( for example souls-like) which describes how a game play or what it entails, I for one understand a "Blizzard style RTS" as a polished and refined RTS with a campaign,story, lore and cinematics as well as engaging versus mode. Doesn't matter if sci-fi or dark fantasy or realistic. doesn't matter if there are heroes or not. doesn't matter if one or four different ressources. EDIT: Also Blizzard kept "pushing the envelope" on something. Be it scale, controls, graphics or presentation Yeah it’s hard to 100% codify but I think it’s a reasonable descriptor in that most people kinda get what you’re talking about if you use the phrase. For me there’s some traditional base-building stuff and an economy based on building up your number of workers. You have the ability to micro both groups of units, and individual units, unlike games where units are in squads that are less malleable. You have various abilities that have to be manually cast. I’d maybe also include the ability to upgrade your existing army’s base stats, whole styles and builds across multiple Blizz games are heavily reliant or entirely based around certain upgrade scaling or certain timings. Probably an underrated element IMO, but you probably could have a ‘Blizz-style’ RTS without that specific facet How micro works is something I personally enjoy, and even in some other games that are great they often don’t quite measure up, or indeed often they don’t even attempt to and do something different | ||
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crablogic
25 Posts
On June 24 2026 19:38 ChillFlame wrote: I found a bit of new info on Steam forums. Click translate on the first comment: Yet another FrostGiant employee with nothing bad to say about the leadership. And it looks like we're not the only ones stuck on StormGate. 75k views on that video, 129k on this one from last month: | ||
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ChillFlame
308 Posts
On June 24 2026 23:44 crablogic wrote: Yet another FrostGiant employee with nothing bad to say about the leadership. And it looks like we're not the only ones stuck on StormGate. 75k views on that video, 129k on this one from last month: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dfV8D03_tK8 Talking shit about your ex-boss has no benefits, really. You don't get anything from it, but you might get black-listed, especially in these Cal swinger party IT companies. Unless you testify in a court, I guess. | ||
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JimmyJRaynor
Canada17642 Posts
On June 24 2026 23:44 crablogic wrote: Yet another FrostGiant employee with nothing bad to say about the leadership. the leadership committed fraud. the employees are circling the wagons to protect their future job prospects. Leadership of EA called gambling mechanics "surprise mechanics" as their tactics were being made illegal by several governments. EA employed behavioural psychologists with aim of getting children addicted to gambling. Not a single EA employee stepped out of line and challenged EA management on this. Not one. Is this evidence EA was right ... and the goverments classifying their predatory tactics as illegal wrong? huh? THe video game industry is scum. | ||
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ChillFlame
308 Posts
On June 25 2026 00:15 JimmyJRaynor wrote: THe video game industry is scum. Yep, in reality, where everything is heavily regulated, there are either no laws to protect customers, or there are laws, but companies straight up break them by putting some bullshit in TOS. It shouldn't have any power since it breaks the law, but for some reason, they get away with it every time. That's why the existence of the SKG movement is so absurd, and Ross Scott looks surprised every time. We have to fight tooth and nail for the most basic of rights. For example, the right to fucking use the product you bought. Game dev industry is truly special. | ||
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JimmyJRaynor
Canada17642 Posts
On June 25 2026 00:38 ChillFlame wrote: Yep, in reality, where everything is heavily regulated, there are either no laws to protect customers, or there are laws, but companies straight up break them by putting some bullshit in TOS. It shouldn't have any power since it breaks the law, but for some reason, they get away with it every time. That's why the existence of the SKG movement is so absurd, and Ross Scott looks surprised every time. We have to fight tooth and nail for the most basic of rights. For example, the right to fucking use the product you bought. Game dev industry is truly special. and i want to be clear that the Video Game Industry is not some kind of "primal force" in this phenomenon. It is the motives of the video game industry leaders that makes it scummy... not the industry itself. Before video games came along Pinball Machines fulfilled the same part of life and the leaders of that industry had the same motives... draining every dime and occupying every minute of spare time from every citizen. The Pinball Machine industry was just as scummy before the video game industry came along. The video game industry effectively replaced most of it. Also, I think a better, broader, and more accurate term would be "Amusement Machine" rather than "Pinball Machine". | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland27032 Posts
On June 24 2026 23:59 ChillFlame wrote: Talking shit about your ex-boss has no benefits, really. You don't get anything from it, but you might get black-listed, especially in these Cal swinger party IT companies. Unless you testify in a court, I guess. Would be my read anyway. | ||
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TheDougler
Canada8312 Posts
On June 25 2026 00:50 JimmyJRaynor wrote: and i want to be clear that the Video Game Industry is not some kind of "primal force" in this phenomenon. It is the motives of the video game industry leaders that makes it scummy... not the industry itself. Before video games came along Pinball Machines fulfilled the same part of life and the leaders of that industry had the same motives... draining every dime and occupying every minute of spare time from every citizen. The Pinball Machine industry was just as scummy before the video game industry came along. The video game industry effectively replaced most of it. Also, I think a better, broader, and more accurate term would be "Amusement Machine" rather than "Pinball Machine". No doubt. It's all essentially just casino owners at the end of the day, realizing "hey if we call this something other than gambling, we sell to kids too, and people won't care if customers get addicted!" | ||
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ChillFlame
308 Posts
On June 25 2026 00:50 JimmyJRaynor wrote: and i want to be clear that the Video Game Industry is not some kind of "primal force" in this phenomenon. It is the motives of the video game industry leaders that makes it scummy... not the industry itself. Before video games came along Pinball Machines fulfilled the same part of life and the leaders of that industry had the same motives... draining every dime and occupying every minute of spare time from every citizen. The Pinball Machine industry was just as scummy before the video game industry came along. The video game industry effectively replaced most of it. Also, I think a better, broader, and more accurate term would be "Amusement Machine" rather than "Pinball Machine". I agree, it will get properly regulated in time. It just takes too long. The industry is 50y old, but we are trying to push laws that forbid companies to take away the product we paid for at any moment, without any reason just now. You might think we would just take the laws from the adjacent spheres, modify them a bit, and use them to protect consumers, but no, we have to do all this shit from scratch. P.S. Old pinball machines are a technological wonder. P.P.S. Solenoids suck, it was so annoying to fix them. | ||
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crablogic
25 Posts
On June 24 2026 23:59 ChillFlame wrote: Talking shit about your ex-boss has no benefits, really. You don't get anything from it, but you might get black-listed, especially in these Cal swinger party IT companies. Unless you testify in a court, I guess. I suppose that makes sense. Morten did claim that his competitors were running a smear campaign against his game, though. You'd think an underling could get a pass for criticizing him. The rules are different at the top. Speaking of video game industry ethics: it's funny how mad people get over the fake reviews thing. Did Brood War devs never do anything to sway a reviewer's opinion? I'm certain that every beloved game you can think of had something equally shady going on. The difference was that those games were good and deserved to succeed, and they got away with whatever they did; they didn't get caught in embarrassing fashion. | ||
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ChillFlame
308 Posts
On June 25 2026 01:21 crablogic wrote: I suppose that makes sense. Morten did claim that his competitors were running a smear campaign against his game, though. You'd think an underling could get a pass for criticizing him. The rules are different at the top. I think this is total bullshit. Tim just made this up to justify his failure. We don't have any proof to back this up, quite the opposite, some of the devs supported SG. On June 25 2026 01:21 crablogic wrote: Speaking of video game industry ethics: it's funny how mad people get over the fake reviews thing. Did Brood War devs never do anything to sway a reviewer's opinion? I'm certain that every beloved game you can think of had something equally shady going on. The difference was that those games were good and deserved to succeed, and they got away with whatever they did; they didn't get caught in embarrassing fashion. I bring up fake reviews, because it is the most illustrative case IMO 1. It is 100% true and admitted by the devs. 2. It breaks Steam ToS. 3. It is generally considered deceiving and immoral. It gives less space for Tim and his undead minions to wiggle, like with "Funded until release" or "Get all year zero commanders". Other studios doing the same are irrelevant to the topic. It's not fine to kill people, because Harold Shipman existed. | ||
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JimmyJRaynor
Canada17642 Posts
On June 25 2026 01:02 ChillFlame wrote: P.S. Old pinball machines are a technological wonder. P.P.S. Solenoids suck, it was so annoying to fix them. The guy who ran the best Starcraft PC Bang in the 00s in the biggest city in Canada... His parents ran a big Pinball arcade just down the street from the PC Bang 30 years earlier. They came by occasionally. It was really cool getting their perspectives on the amusement machine business. His dad could fix anything. | ||
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Jeremy Reimer
Canada1182 Posts
On June 24 2026 18:33 Harris1st wrote: In contrast to how other games and genre describe stuff ( for example souls-like) which describes how a game play or what it entails, I for one understand a "Blizzard style RTS" as a polished and refined RTS I think you can stop right there. I think you nailed it. What we think of as a "Blizzard RTS" is really just an "RTS with Blizzard polish". And that's something that's hard to define, and even harder to replicate. One tiny example that I remember from the days of dozens of failed "WoW-killers": the little inventory icons. In World of Warcraft, every icon was beautiful, colorful, easy to distinguish from each other, and most of them were unique. The imitators seldom spent much time on their inventory icons, usually just spitting them out with no thoughtfulness. For a lot of these clone MMOs, the icons were even monochrome! Now, obviously these MMOs didn't fail because of their poor inventory icons. But it was just one tiny example of how Blizzard cared about every little detail, and their competitors didn't. And where did many of the original WoW icons come from? Warcraft III of course! EDIT: Also Blizzard kept "pushing the envelope" on something. Be it scale, controls, graphics or presentation Yes, they did. And this was probably the one thing that Tim Morten thought he had a handle on. Because he was pushing the technological envelope with "3x the tick rate" and "rollback netcode"! Except that these things didn't matter one bit for the player experience, and ended up being a complete waste of time and resources. | ||
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JimmyJRaynor
Canada17642 Posts
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ChillFlame
308 Posts
Therefore, WC3R is a "Blizzard-style RTS" and a Blizzard RTS at the same time. | ||
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