EPT"You are not sad" - Spartak 2025 AD
This is like terminal discord moderator syndrome.
Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread - Page 285
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ChillFlame
239 Posts
"You are not sad" - Spartak 2025 AD This is like terminal discord moderator syndrome. | ||
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Miragee
8626 Posts
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ChillFlame
239 Posts
This is so in character. | ||
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Miragee
8626 Posts
On November 06 2025 22:27 ChillFlame wrote: I also would (I did and I am). But I'd never say something like "you're not sad" seriously. This is so in character. Fair enough.^^ At this point I'm just confused they don't communicate at all. Maybe they are handling the legal stuff in the background right now. Otherwise I cannot explain it. | ||
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RogerChillingworth
Chad3104 Posts
On November 06 2025 06:26 Jeremy Reimer wrote: But Tim's attitude not only doomed his own company but doomed himself, personally. He can never admit the truth. He's built a little prison around himself that he can never escape from. EDIT: I know I keep saying that I'm going to take a break from talking about Stormgate, but I just can't help myself. It's too fascinating a story, even if it is kind of a sad one. I never believed that not listening to feedback was the issue, but rather not having great ideas to begin with, a la 3rd faction and campaign reveal. If a studio is listening to reddit about core shit, then it's joever as fuck. It's joever as joe. Anyways I agree about not posting. I only post because I'm on my computer so much. And then all these feelings come up like a GERD burp. But yah whatever, so meaningless. Still, I feel violated. #metoo. A bad game touched my no-no place and then fled the scene. | ||
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JimmyJRaynor
Canada17224 Posts
On November 06 2025 16:44 ChillFlame wrote: I can't wait to see BOTH Tims to destroy a Westwood style game. Game studios should avoid media people from FG as a plague. Tim Morten already wrecked C&C in 2014. They brought in the guy who runs GameReplays.org (the TL of C&C). He uprooted his life... Moved to SoCal and ~10 weeks later they sent him home. Tim Morten claimed he was 'blindsided' by EA cancelling the project. Lol. The game was garbage. The guy running GR.org made many substantial contributions to RTS and Victory Games (studio working on C&C) fucked him over hard. | ||
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ChillFlame
239 Posts
If feedback is needed for the core features to work, that can only mean the dev does not have a plan/vision/competence to begin with. Sad to admit, if SG took all our feedback to heart during the alpha/beta, they wouldn't be competent enough to make something good out of it. Also, money were already wasted on esports consultans, archeologicst, marvel stars, and Jesse Brophy's bloody sacrifices to the dark forces (so he could create a hedgehog). | ||
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JimmyJRaynor
Canada17224 Posts
On November 07 2025 01:45 ChillFlame wrote: Feedback only matters in small things. If feedback is needed for the core features to work, that can only mean the dev does not have a plan/vision/competence to begin with. Sad to admit, if SG took all our feedback to heart during the alpha/beta, they wouldn't be competent enough to make something good out of it. Also, money were already wasted on esports consultans, archeologicst, marvel stars, and Jesse Brophy's bloody sacrifices to the dark forces (so he could create a hedgehog). For people who love the smell of burning money that voice actor spotlight video was awesome. It is almost as though Business Consultant Nathan Fielder was brought on to guide the Studio. On November 07 2025 01:45 ChillFlame wrote: Feedback only matters in small things. Ya, good point. | ||
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Miragee
8626 Posts
On November 07 2025 01:45 ChillFlame wrote: Feedback only matters in small things. And from the very beginning Frost Giant said they had no clear idea and wanted to listen to what kinda game the community wants. In essence, feedback to build the core idea of the game instead of feedback for small things. If that wasn't a giant redflag, I don't know... | ||
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ChillFlame
239 Posts
On November 07 2025 02:35 Miragee wrote: And from the very beginning Frost Giant said they had no clear idea and wanted to listen to what kinda game the community wants. In essence, feedback to build the core idea of the game instead of feedback for small things. If that wasn't a giant redflag, I don't know... It was a red flag if you read it carefully. I read it as "lets make the game together with community, bla bla". My brain skips stuff like this. Turns out it was important. | ||
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Jeremy Reimer
Canada1112 Posts
On November 06 2025 23:13 RogerChillingworth wrote: I never believed that not listening to feedback was the issue, but rather not having great ideas to begin with, a la 3rd faction and campaign reveal. If a studio is listening to reddit about core shit, then it's joever as fuck. It's joever as joe. Oh, you're 100% right about that. Frost Giant never had a real plan or any kind of vision other than "we want to make the next Blizzard-style RTS, but Blizzard won't pay us to do it, so we're going to make our own Blizzard, with blackjack and climbing gyms!" Tim Morten liked Starcraft, but Tim Campbell liked Warcraft, so they just plopped down exactly in the middle, sitting directly between two stools, and made a bunch of knock-off Temu Starcraft units on maps with destructible trees and creep camps. Should they add heroes? Sure, but not in 1v1, because Starcraft folks said they didn't want them in 1v1. But leave the creep camps in there, even though without heroes there is no point to them. The list of idiotic non-decisions goes on and on. But having made the stupid decision to "listen to the community" and just try to please everyone in the first place, then after the EA launch, they stopped listening to the community. Because now the community could see what they had made, and they didn't like it. People didn't like the art style, they didn't like the creep camps (which kept getting reworked back and forth for years before being ripped out entirely), they didn't like the boring units, they didn't like the gameplay, they didn't like the balance, and so forth. So in a crazy way, Frost Giant made two giant mistakes, one after the other: 1. Listening to the community, and then 2. Not listening to the community. Mistake 1 was not having a plan or a vision to begin with, and relying on a contradictory mess of ideas from two incompatible Blizzard RTS communities (Starcraft and Warcraft), thus producing a mishmash that satisfied neither community. Mistake 2 was not listening to any of the feedback from the results of Mistake 1. There were other mistakes, of course. Plenty of mistakes. But these were the big two. | ||
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ChillFlame
239 Posts
On November 07 2025 04:00 Jeremy Reimer wrote: But leave the creep camps in there, even though, without heroes, there is no point to them. I broke so many spears fighting this on Discord. I tried to explain that WC3 has multiple complex systems connected by creep camps. Camps give unique items you can't get anywhere else. (Item system) Camps give experience for heroes. (Hero leveling system) Camps give opportunities. For example, you reach important thresholds like lvl 3 or lvl5 and use it to attack. Camps guard expansions (the economy is directly gated by creeps). You can't expand without clearing a pretty tough camp first. Opponents know this, so they might creepjack you. Not only will they get an easier fight, because you will fight both them and creeps, they also might steal the exp/items AND delay your expansions. That's how WC3 manages contesting zones. Camps are sleeping at night (Day-night system). It's easier to creep at night, but it's also easier to creepjack you, because of low night vision. You can also sell creep items if you're doing a rush/fast tech (converting items to gold). There are creep routes for different races and heroes. They enable different plays. You can creep faster than the opponent, creepjack him, or just attack his base/expo while he is away. There's actually more, but it wouldn't be as interesting. I could rant on how genius marketplaces are for an hour. Everything I listed in brackets () is absent in SG. WC3 is such a complex system with lots of moving parts. Creeps fit into this so tightly, it's almost impossible to add or remove something without changing the whole gameplay. FG didn't understand any of this. I tried to explain this in detail with examples and diagrams. I was told I'm arguing for the sake of arguing, and they know better. Yeah, that's why the whole "creep thing" was completely removed a year and a half after. Genius development resource distribution. | ||
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ChillFlame
239 Posts
My point is, if you try to implement creep camps, you HAVE to cleverly tie them to all main mechanics. You can't just slap them because they were a part of WC3. | ||
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RogerChillingworth
Chad3104 Posts
ok if I post here again I legit want someone to kill me. If I read one more post from Chill Flame about THE SAME FUCKIN SHIT my face is gonna rectally prolapse. Love u chillflame fuck | ||
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JimmyJRaynor
Canada17224 Posts
On November 07 2025 04:32 RogerChillingworth wrote: This thread is like those dreams as a kid where you're walking through endless tunnels. Holy shit. I couldn't get out. That's this thread 100%. Also like when you're scrolling too long and your eyes turn to shit and your brain fucks itself. ok if I post here again I legit want someone to kill me. If I read one more post from Chill Flame about THE SAME FUCKIN SHIT my face is gonna rectally prolapse. Love u chillflame fuck This thread is great comedy. Relax and have fun. I think this is the last video Frost Giant released. "Rain on the scarecrow, blood on the plow... The previous game franchise ignited esports industry... And made me so proud." 🤠 The honesty, truth, and raw courage of all these voice actors who fought so hard through brutal life circumstances to make Stormgate just makes my skin tingle. Let's face it, Voice Actors are the fountainhead of human progress. Where would we be without Voice Actors? | ||
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ChillFlame
239 Posts
On November 07 2025 04:32 RogerChillingworth wrote: This thread is like those dreams as a kid where you're walking through endless tunnels. Holy shit. I couldn't get out. That's this thread 100%. Also like when you're scrolling too long and your eyes turn to shit and your brain fucks itself. ok if I post here again I legit want someone to kill me. If I read one more post from Chill Flame about THE SAME FUCKIN SHIT my face is gonna rectally prolapse. Love u chillflame fuck I'm too old to remember shit. This must be hilarious to read me ranting over the same stuff. P.S. Welcome to the club. Congratz on your rectal prolapse. | ||
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JimmyJRaynor
Canada17224 Posts
https://www.ebay.ca/itm/187218330113 | ||
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ChillFlame
239 Posts
My eyes, they bleed. They could at least use some medium-quality resin for the collectible figurine. | ||
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Jeremy Reimer
Canada1112 Posts
On November 07 2025 04:32 RogerChillingworth wrote: This thread is like those dreams as a kid where you're walking through endless tunnels. Holy shit. I couldn't get out. That's this thread 100%. Also like when you're scrolling too long and your eyes turn to shit and your brain fucks itself. ok if I post here again I legit want someone to kill me. If I read one more post from Chill Flame about THE SAME FUCKIN SHIT my face is gonna rectally prolapse. Love u chillflame fuck LOL. Okay, well I for one appreciated Chillflame's more granular breakdown of why creeps worked so well in Warcraft III and were so dumb and pointless in Stormgate that they eventually got ripped out. I didn't follow the War3 scene that closely and never played War3 multiplayer, so I didn't know there were so many neat little systems in there. And Stormgate, indeed, had none of them. Even leveling was missing: because the genius designers at Frost Giant thought that level upgrades for weapons and armor were unnecessary and "confusing", so they just took them out. They didn't realize the whole thing about how putting money into level upgrades created tension over timing attacks, and if you didn't have them, you just... didn't get timing attacks. | ||
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ChillFlame
239 Posts
On November 07 2025 06:20 Jeremy Reimer wrote: LOL. Okay, well I for one appreciated Chillflame's more granular breakdown of why creeps worked so well in Warcraft III and were so dumb and pointless in Stormgate that they eventually got ripped out. I didn't follow the War3 scene that closely and never played War3 multiplayer, so I didn't know there were so many neat little systems in there. And Stormgate, indeed, had none of them. Even leveling was missing: because the genius designers at Frost Giant thought that level upgrades for weapons and armor were unnecessary and "confusing", so they just took them out. They didn't realize the whole thing about how putting money into level upgrades created tension over timing attacks, and if you didn't have them, you just... didn't get timing attacks. Upgrades in WC3 are less important than SC2 ones, because they're percentage-based (~12% for an upgrade if I remember it right). Supply caps are lower, army compositions are often mixed. So you might skip early game attack/defence upgrades. On the other hand, level thresholds are insane power spikes. LVL 3 heroes are very strong. That's why creeps enable timing attacks. People know which camps give how many XP, so they can stop enemy heroes from getting a LVL 3. You can get rid of attack/armor upgrades, but you have to give something in return. WC3 has both, that's why it's so complex. Both SC2 and WC3 have eco, tech, and army, but WC3 also has heroes, and it increases the complexity significantly. There's also one thing I forgot to mention. WC3 creeps are a zero sum game. They don't respawn. That's why players NEVER idle. If you won't clear your side of the map, your opponent will. (They might even punish your passive playstyle by clearing your side of the map first). | ||
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