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On July 28 2025 13:06 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On July 27 2025 22:22 Agh wrote:On July 27 2025 21:05 WombaT wrote:On July 27 2025 19:57 Agh wrote: I mean that's what the current version of infernal is, you just sit on production and make sure you're not at capped charges.
Getting attacked or stormgate spawning? Press key, get units. Tier 2? Even better, use ability, get 3 units.
I don't think I've ever seen an all or nothing angle like that before, make it baseline or remove it. Otherwise the only way you balance it is by giving them the sc2 protoss gateway unit treatment and that isn't an appealing option for anyone.
With smaller maps it gives the advantage of being able to be insanely safer expanding compared to the other two races. And once we inevitably get out of the shoebox map size you run into the issue of production at each base for the best harassment defense. Is this as broken, or at least as frustrating as it sounds? The best mental image I can paint is more or less a sc2 warpgate, except each unit stacks up to 3 and there isn't a warp-in time it just builds instantly. And it's for every unit, not just tier 1. (even the 'hero' dragon unit builds instantly) So yeah, I'll let you form your opinion based on that. Only thing that makes it even remotely acceptable is that the game pace is fast enough that it somewhat blends in. I'm fine with the reverse/instant production but why does it go past a single charge, much less up to 3? Maybe add a tier 3 upgrade that increases it, but not baseline. That sounds, awful, although I dunno the specifics. It sounds like in a sorta even lategame where you’re banking, you can leave spare supply space and have the capacity to almost instantly reinforce any weak point your opponent finds? I don’t know enough about this specific thing, sounds wonky but I don’t know. I’ve fucking zero idea why FG went in certain directions in terms of production. Celestials initially (not sure now) were like the worst aspects of SC2 Protoss that people hate, on steroids. Unless I’m misunderstanding this sound like that again, on steroids. It’s weird, look it’s all good making a mechanically easier game for casuals, but fairness and frustration is part of that too. Some of their decisions feel ‘half right’ in the worst way possible. Let’s make it mechanically easier (good for many), also you know the most frustrating non-mechanical elements of SC2, let’s accentuate those It’s daft, I don’t get why they went this direction other than to respond to allegations it was too safe. Needing high APM to compete, ok that puts people off. Things like ‘oh I missed scouting a proxy pylon and now like shitloads of army are in my face’ are actually way more discouraging for the casual player. Played/followed Protoss since BW. Argued against Warp Gate in its current form for over a decade. At least as a core mechanic. Or at least without a trade-off (I wouldn’t be against late game warp gate if the production cooldown was < than gateways). And this is from both directions. 1. I don’t get units as good as bio, or as fun to micro until blink comes in anyway. Because I can’t. Because if I did, the ability to warp in in combination would be completely broken 2. Playing against Toss, especially at lower levels warp ins have always been incredibly frustrating. Oh I couldn’t get a scout in to see if you threw gateways down. At least versus Zerg or Terran I can have a spotter that gives me 30 seconds or so if I spot a moveout. Warpgate might have a huge allin just be at my door I think a lot of the QoL changes are great but I’ve zero idea why FG decided to double down on some of the worst elements of frustrating volatility in SC2
Lets just wait another week and then play some Stormgate. And then we can happily argue all the flaws. This seems all very hypothetical on your part 
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On July 28 2025 13:06 WombaT wrote: That sounds, awful, although I dunno the specifics.
It sounds like in a sorta even lategame where you’re banking, you can leave spare supply space and have the capacity to almost instantly reinforce any weak point your opponent finds?
I don’t know enough about this specific thing, sounds wonky but I don’t know. Pretty much, there are only 3 "ladder" maps right now and only broken crown could realistically get to that point, even then it's not spread out enough to make a huge difference but even then it still exists.
I’ve fucking zero idea why FG went in certain directions in terms of production.
Celestials initially (not sure now) were like the worst aspects of SC2 Protoss that people hate, on steroids. Unless I’m misunderstanding this sound like that again, on steroids.
It’s weird, look it’s all good making a mechanically easier game for casuals, but fairness and frustration is part of that too.
Some of their decisions feel ‘half right’ in the worst way possible.
Let’s make it mechanically easier (good for many), also you know the most frustrating non-mechanical elements of SC2, let’s accentuate those The macro/QoL features are definitely one of the best aspects of the game. The production indication when using quick macro can be improved a bit but imagining sc2 launching with something like that would be amazing. If Stormgate is remembered for any feature it will be that.
People keep hinting or referencing a celestial rework. Which given that I really don't like how their buildings and synergy mesh together I can understand. It's pretty much impossible for a new player to pick up the race and figure out its nuances for optimal/advantageous gameplay organically. I don't really think they want attacking your own structures so that your Argents do bonus damage on their first shot a thing but it's a significant difference.
It’s daft, I don’t get why they went this direction other than to respond to allegations it was too safe.
Needing high APM to compete, ok that puts people off. Things like ‘oh I missed scouting a proxy pylon and now like shitloads of army are in my face’ are actually way more discouraging for the casual player.
Meh I think every competitive title has insane apm requirements at the top. I'd argue that 'slower' games feel even worse for new players since they're much more aware of the gap. Eg.) Warcraft 3 skill differences of not even being able to kill a single unit, and then having it be denied when you finally think you got one has to be a sinking feeling.
Stormgate's pace is definitely quick. They are being quite deliberate in making sure TTK isn't too fast, and the things that do "devastating damage" are at least pretty telegraphed and slow (although not necessarily preventable in some cases). Archangel avatar form does seem a bit silly though.
They also want abilities/casters to be a thing. It's just a very fine line to tread and some of the interactions probably aren't ideal. Mass medtech in Vanguard mirror is about as silly as caster/sanctum only in Human mirror warcraft 3, or starcraft 2 TvT (worst matchup currently) where Ravens have such a ridiculous impact. Out of those I think Stormgate has the best and most in depth interaction, but also amongst the worst in terms of snowballing.
Played/followed Protoss since BW. Argued against Warp Gate in its current form for over a decade. At least as a core mechanic. Or at least without a trade-off (I wouldn’t be against late game warp gate if the production cooldown was < than gateways).
And this is from both directions. 1. I don’t get units as good as bio, or as fun to micro until blink comes in anyway. Because I can’t. Because if I did, the ability to warp in in combination would be completely broken 2. Playing against Toss, especially at lower levels warp ins have always been incredibly frustrating. Oh I couldn’t get a scout in to see if you threw gateways down. At least versus Zerg or Terran I can have a spotter that gives me 30 seconds or so if I spot a moveout. Warpgate might have a huge allin just be at my door
I think a lot of the QoL changes are great but I’ve zero idea why FG decided to double down on some of the worst elements of frustrating volatility in SC2
I think Warpgate was always seen as problematic. At least it was addressed, albeit a few years too late. It's main issue was the offensive potential. The infernal production issue is infinitely worse in my eyes, and I think it's hand down the most important gameplay issue to address if they want to attract and retain players.
Starcraft 2's issue that it is just too fast and difficult. The upside being it is "impossible" to play a perfect game, the downside is having to instantly identify the most important threat, then have incredible precision in dealing with it on top of that. I think WoL (*with changes) was the best version of the game but I've complained about that enough in the past, mainly because everything 'new' added to the game made it a worse/more frustrating experience compared to the added value.
Ignoring the obvious flaws stormgate actually plays out quite well, it's easy to see the potential. Things just aren't going to magically happen and they need to take initiative in addressing the issues and experimenting
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On July 28 2025 13:06 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On July 27 2025 22:22 Agh wrote:On July 27 2025 21:05 WombaT wrote:On July 27 2025 19:57 Agh wrote: I mean that's what the current version of infernal is, you just sit on production and make sure you're not at capped charges.
Getting attacked or stormgate spawning? Press key, get units. Tier 2? Even better, use ability, get 3 units.
I don't think I've ever seen an all or nothing angle like that before, make it baseline or remove it. Otherwise the only way you balance it is by giving them the sc2 protoss gateway unit treatment and that isn't an appealing option for anyone.
With smaller maps it gives the advantage of being able to be insanely safer expanding compared to the other two races. And once we inevitably get out of the shoebox map size you run into the issue of production at each base for the best harassment defense. Is this as broken, or at least as frustrating as it sounds? The best mental image I can paint is more or less a sc2 warpgate, except each unit stacks up to 3 and there isn't a warp-in time it just builds instantly. And it's for every unit, not just tier 1. (even the 'hero' dragon unit builds instantly) So yeah, I'll let you form your opinion based on that. Only thing that makes it even remotely acceptable is that the game pace is fast enough that it somewhat blends in. I'm fine with the reverse/instant production but why does it go past a single charge, much less up to 3? Maybe add a tier 3 upgrade that increases it, but not baseline. That sounds, awful, although I dunno the specifics. It sounds like in a sorta even lategame where you’re banking, you can leave spare supply space and have the capacity to almost instantly reinforce any weak point your opponent finds? I don’t know enough about this specific thing, sounds wonky but I don’t know. I’ve fucking zero idea why FG went in certain directions in terms of production. Celestials initially (not sure now) were like the worst aspects of SC2 Protoss that people hate, on steroids. Unless I’m misunderstanding this sound like that again, on steroids. It’s weird, look it’s all good making a mechanically easier game for casuals, but fairness and frustration is part of that too. Some of their decisions feel ‘half right’ in the worst way possible.
If we judge by some of their earlier interviews; They wanted to make very unique and distinct races. People who aren't creative and try this, do this by taking what they already know and making that even more extreme.
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Celestial production is currently not like warpgate/protoss. Units are made from their production buildings as normal.
They used to be able to "designate" a building, such that (to use protoss as an example), all gateway (creation chamber) units come out of one gateway. You could proxy gate and only "risk" one chamber and create a whole army far away on the map.
Celestials also have the morph core, that flying thing that morphs into buildings. It's so buildings don't always have to be made within range of pylon energy (whatever it's called) or the flying town hall. But it was easy to fly a morph core into the corner of your opponent's base, turn it into a creation chamber (gateway) which also builds in like 10 seconds, and then rally a ton of units out of it.
Imbalanced/not really fun to play against, but an interesting idea at least.
So right now Celestial, if anything, are kind of boring/plain with their production. Unless I'm forgetting something major?
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On July 29 2025 06:21 SoleSteeler wrote: Celestial production is currently not like warpgate/protoss. Units are made from their production buildings as normal.
They used to be able to "designate" a building, such that (to use protoss as an example), all gateway (creation chamber) units come out of one gateway. You could proxy gate and only "risk" one chamber and create a whole army far away on the map.
Celestials also have the morph core, that flying thing that morphs into buildings. It's so buildings don't always have to be made within range of pylon energy (whatever it's called) or the flying town hall. But it was easy to fly a morph core into the corner of your opponent's base, turn it into a creation chamber (gateway) which also builds in like 10 seconds, and then rally a ton of units out of it.
Imbalanced/not really fun to play against, but an interesting idea at least.
So right now Celestial, if anything, are kind of boring/plain with their production. Unless I'm forgetting something major? Their production can instantly start spawning on any point of the map so that is pretty neat. Can make them have stronger defensive advantages or more aggressive opportunities.
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So will GM actually exist now that the game is releasing? Or will it still only be up to masters 1? Anyone on frost giant team can tell me?
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Also I recommend some special pet or skin for finishing in certain leagues. In LoL you get a Victorious Skin for finishing in gold or higher. I've seen many of my friends talking about playing the game more because they want to finish the game in a certain league to earn a skin.
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On July 29 2025 06:25 CicadaSC wrote: Also I recommend some special pet or skin for finishing in certain leagues. In LoL you get a Victorious Skin for finishing in gold or higher. I've seen many of my friends talking about playing the game more because they want to finish the game in a certain league to earn a skin.
I honesty do not like skins in RTS games, it makes it harder to differentiate units, and there might be over 100 on the screen at once.
It works better in MOBA and FPS games, even I think it makes the gameplay worse there too.
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On July 29 2025 18:57 Slydie wrote:Show nested quote +On July 29 2025 06:25 CicadaSC wrote: Also I recommend some special pet or skin for finishing in certain leagues. In LoL you get a Victorious Skin for finishing in gold or higher. I've seen many of my friends talking about playing the game more because they want to finish the game in a certain league to earn a skin. I honesty do not like skins in RTS games, it makes it harder to differentiate units, and there might be over 100 on the screen at once. It works better in MOBA and FPS games, even I think it makes the gameplay worse there too. we actually already have skins, thoughts on how they are implemented currently? you can get an army accent for your exo right now. Also, it could be a pet or fog of war shader too, or a player title/banner. I think there are many options doesnt have to be skins but give us something to motivate us to play and grind ladder.
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The problem are not the skins but the showing off of the skins to your opponent. All it takes is a "show opponent skin" checkmark somewhere. At least for ranked.
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