|
On July 28 2025 13:06 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On July 27 2025 22:22 Agh wrote:On July 27 2025 21:05 WombaT wrote:On July 27 2025 19:57 Agh wrote:
I mean that's what the current version of infernal is, you just sit on production and make sure you're not at capped charges.
Getting attacked or stormgate spawning? Press key, get units.
Tier 2? Even better, use ability, get 3 units.
I don't think I've ever seen an all or nothing angle like that before, make it baseline or remove it. Otherwise the only way you balance it is by giving them the sc2 protoss gateway unit treatment and that isn't an appealing option for anyone.
With smaller maps it gives the advantage of being able to be insanely safer expanding compared to the other two races. And once we inevitably get out of the shoebox map size you run into the issue of production at each base for the best harassment defense. Is this as broken, or at least as frustrating as it sounds? The best mental image I can paint is more or less a sc2 warpgate, except each unit stacks up to 3 and there isn't a warp-in time it just builds instantly. And it's for every unit, not just tier 1. (even the 'hero' dragon unit builds instantly) So yeah, I'll let you form your opinion based on that. Only thing that makes it even remotely acceptable is that the game pace is fast enough that it somewhat blends in. I'm fine with the reverse/instant production but why does it go past a single charge, much less up to 3? Maybe add a tier 3 upgrade that increases it, but not baseline. That sounds, awful, although I dunno the specifics. It sounds like in a sorta even lategame where you’re banking, you can leave spare supply space and have the capacity to almost instantly reinforce any weak point your opponent finds? I don’t know enough about this specific thing, sounds wonky but I don’t know. I’ve fucking zero idea why FG went in certain directions in terms of production. Celestials initially (not sure now) were like the worst aspects of SC2 Protoss that people hate, on steroids. Unless I’m misunderstanding this sound like that again, on steroids. It’s weird, look it’s all good making a mechanically easier game for casuals, but fairness and frustration is part of that too. Some of their decisions feel ‘half right’ in the worst way possible. Let’s make it mechanically easier (good for many), also you know the most frustrating non-mechanical elements of SC2, let’s accentuate those It’s daft, I don’t get why they went this direction other than to respond to allegations it was too safe. Needing high APM to compete, ok that puts people off. Things like ‘oh I missed scouting a proxy pylon and now like shitloads of army are in my face’ are actually way more discouraging for the casual player. Played/followed Protoss since BW. Argued against Warp Gate in its current form for over a decade. At least as a core mechanic. Or at least without a trade-off (I wouldn’t be against late game warp gate if the production cooldown was < than gateways). And this is from both directions. 1. I don’t get units as good as bio, or as fun to micro until blink comes in anyway. Because I can’t. Because if I did, the ability to warp in in combination would be completely broken 2. Playing against Toss, especially at lower levels warp ins have always been incredibly frustrating. Oh I couldn’t get a scout in to see if you threw gateways down. At least versus Zerg or Terran I can have a spotter that gives me 30 seconds or so if I spot a moveout. Warpgate might have a huge allin just be at my door I think a lot of the QoL changes are great but I’ve zero idea why FG decided to double down on some of the worst elements of frustrating volatility in SC2
Lets just wait another week and then play some Stormgate.
And then we can happily argue all the flaws. This seems all very hypothetical on your part 
|
On July 28 2025 13:06 WombaT wrote:
That sounds, awful, although I dunno the specifics.
It sounds like in a sorta even lategame where you’re banking, you can leave spare supply space and have the capacity to almost instantly reinforce any weak point your opponent finds?
I don’t know enough about this specific thing, sounds wonky but I don’t know.
Pretty much, there are only 3 "ladder" maps right now and only broken crown could realistically get to that point, even then it's not spread out enough to make a huge difference but even then it still exists.
I’ve fucking zero idea why FG went in certain directions in terms of production.
Celestials initially (not sure now) were like the worst aspects of SC2 Protoss that people hate, on steroids. Unless I’m misunderstanding this sound like that again, on steroids.
It’s weird, look it’s all good making a mechanically easier game for casuals, but fairness and frustration is part of that too.
Some of their decisions feel ‘half right’ in the worst way possible.
Let’s make it mechanically easier (good for many), also you know the most frustrating non-mechanical elements of SC2, let’s accentuate those
The macro/QoL features are definitely one of the best aspects of the game. The production indication when using quick macro can be improved a bit but imagining sc2 launching with something like that would be amazing.
If Stormgate is remembered for any feature it will be that.
People keep hinting or referencing a celestial rework.
Which given that I really don't like how their buildings and synergy mesh together I can understand. It's pretty much impossible for a new player to pick up the race and figure out its nuances for optimal/advantageous gameplay organically. I don't really think they want attacking your own structures so that your Argents do bonus damage on their first shot a thing but it's a significant difference.
It’s daft, I don’t get why they went this direction other than to respond to allegations it was too safe.
Needing high APM to compete, ok that puts people off. Things like ‘oh I missed scouting a proxy pylon and now like shitloads of army are in my face’ are actually way more discouraging for the casual player.
Meh I think every competitive title has insane apm requirements at the top.
I'd argue that 'slower' games feel even worse for new players since they're much more aware of the gap.
Eg.) Warcraft 3 skill differences of not even being able to kill a single unit, and then having it be denied when you finally think you got one has to be a sinking feeling.
Stormgate's pace is definitely quick. They are being quite deliberate in making sure TTK isn't too fast, and the things that do "devastating damage" are at least pretty telegraphed and slow (although not necessarily preventable in some cases).
Archangel avatar form does seem a bit silly though.
They also want abilities/casters to be a thing. It's just a very fine line to tread and some of the interactions probably aren't ideal. Mass medtech in Vanguard mirror is about as silly as caster/sanctum only in Human mirror warcraft 3, or starcraft 2 TvT (worst matchup currently) where Ravens have such a ridiculous impact.
Out of those I think Stormgate has the best and most in depth interaction, but also amongst the worst in terms of snowballing.
Played/followed Protoss since BW. Argued against Warp Gate in its current form for over a decade. At least as a core mechanic. Or at least without a trade-off (I wouldn’t be against late game warp gate if the production cooldown was < than gateways).
And this is from both directions.
1. I don’t get units as good as bio, or as fun to micro until blink comes in anyway. Because I can’t. Because if I did, the ability to warp in in combination would be completely broken
2. Playing against Toss, especially at lower levels warp ins have always been incredibly frustrating. Oh I couldn’t get a scout in to see if you threw gateways down. At least versus Zerg or Terran I can have a spotter that gives me 30 seconds or so if I spot a moveout. Warpgate might have a huge allin just be at my door
I think a lot of the QoL changes are great but I’ve zero idea why FG decided to double down on some of the worst elements of frustrating volatility in SC2
I think Warpgate was always seen as problematic. At least it was addressed, albeit a few years too late. It's main issue was the offensive potential.
The infernal production issue is infinitely worse in my eyes, and I think it's hand down the most important gameplay issue to address if they want to attract and retain players.
Starcraft 2's issue that it is just too fast and difficult. The upside being it is "impossible" to play a perfect game, the downside is having to instantly identify the most important threat, then have incredible precision in dealing with it on top of that.
I think WoL (*with changes) was the best version of the game but I've complained about that enough in the past, mainly because everything 'new' added to the game made it a worse/more frustrating experience compared to the added value.
Ignoring the obvious flaws stormgate actually plays out quite well, it's easy to see the potential. Things just aren't going to magically happen and they need to take initiative in addressing the issues and experimenting
|
On July 28 2025 13:06 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On July 27 2025 22:22 Agh wrote:On July 27 2025 21:05 WombaT wrote:On July 27 2025 19:57 Agh wrote:
I mean that's what the current version of infernal is, you just sit on production and make sure you're not at capped charges.
Getting attacked or stormgate spawning? Press key, get units.
Tier 2? Even better, use ability, get 3 units.
I don't think I've ever seen an all or nothing angle like that before, make it baseline or remove it. Otherwise the only way you balance it is by giving them the sc2 protoss gateway unit treatment and that isn't an appealing option for anyone.
With smaller maps it gives the advantage of being able to be insanely safer expanding compared to the other two races. And once we inevitably get out of the shoebox map size you run into the issue of production at each base for the best harassment defense. Is this as broken, or at least as frustrating as it sounds? The best mental image I can paint is more or less a sc2 warpgate, except each unit stacks up to 3 and there isn't a warp-in time it just builds instantly. And it's for every unit, not just tier 1. (even the 'hero' dragon unit builds instantly) So yeah, I'll let you form your opinion based on that. Only thing that makes it even remotely acceptable is that the game pace is fast enough that it somewhat blends in. I'm fine with the reverse/instant production but why does it go past a single charge, much less up to 3? Maybe add a tier 3 upgrade that increases it, but not baseline. That sounds, awful, although I dunno the specifics. It sounds like in a sorta even lategame where you’re banking, you can leave spare supply space and have the capacity to almost instantly reinforce any weak point your opponent finds? I don’t know enough about this specific thing, sounds wonky but I don’t know. I’ve fucking zero idea why FG went in certain directions in terms of production. Celestials initially (not sure now) were like the worst aspects of SC2 Protoss that people hate, on steroids. Unless I’m misunderstanding this sound like that again, on steroids. It’s weird, look it’s all good making a mechanically easier game for casuals, but fairness and frustration is part of that too. Some of their decisions feel ‘half right’ in the worst way possible.
If we judge by some of their earlier interviews; They wanted to make very unique and distinct races. People who aren't creative and try this, do this by taking what they already know and making that even more extreme.
|
Celestial production is currently not like warpgate/protoss. Units are made from their production buildings as normal.
They used to be able to "designate" a building, such that (to use protoss as an example), all gateway (creation chamber) units come out of one gateway. You could proxy gate and only "risk" one chamber and create a whole army far away on the map.
Celestials also have the morph core, that flying thing that morphs into buildings. It's so buildings don't always have to be made within range of pylon energy (whatever it's called) or the flying town hall. But it was easy to fly a morph core into the corner of your opponent's base, turn it into a creation chamber (gateway) which also builds in like 10 seconds, and then rally a ton of units out of it.
Imbalanced/not really fun to play against, but an interesting idea at least.
So right now Celestial, if anything, are kind of boring/plain with their production. Unless I'm forgetting something major?
|
On July 29 2025 06:21 SoleSteeler wrote:
Celestial production is currently not like warpgate/protoss. Units are made from their production buildings as normal.
They used to be able to "designate" a building, such that (to use protoss as an example), all gateway (creation chamber) units come out of one gateway. You could proxy gate and only "risk" one chamber and create a whole army far away on the map.
Celestials also have the morph core, that flying thing that morphs into buildings. It's so buildings don't always have to be made within range of pylon energy (whatever it's called) or the flying town hall. But it was easy to fly a morph core into the corner of your opponent's base, turn it into a creation chamber (gateway) which also builds in like 10 seconds, and then rally a ton of units out of it.
Imbalanced/not really fun to play against, but an interesting idea at least.
So right now Celestial, if anything, are kind of boring/plain with their production. Unless I'm forgetting something major?
Their production can instantly start spawning on any point of the map so that is pretty neat. Can make them have stronger defensive advantages or more aggressive opportunities.
|
So will GM actually exist now that the game is releasing? Or will it still only be up to masters 1? Anyone on frost giant team can tell me?
|
Also I recommend some special pet or skin for finishing in certain leagues. In LoL you get a Victorious Skin for finishing in gold or higher. I've seen many of my friends talking about playing the game more because they want to finish the game in a certain league to earn a skin.
|
On July 29 2025 06:25 CicadaSC wrote:
Also I recommend some special pet or skin for finishing in certain leagues. In LoL you get a Victorious Skin for finishing in gold or higher. I've seen many of my friends talking about playing the game more because they want to finish the game in a certain league to earn a skin.
I honesty do not like skins in RTS games, it makes it harder to differentiate units, and there might be over 100 units on the screen at once.
It works better in MOBA and FPS games, even I think it makes the gameplay worse there too.
|
On July 29 2025 18:57 Slydie wrote:Show nested quote +On July 29 2025 06:25 CicadaSC wrote:
Also I recommend some special pet or skin for finishing in certain leagues. In LoL you get a Victorious Skin for finishing in gold or higher. I've seen many of my friends talking about playing the game more because they want to finish the game in a certain league to earn a skin. I honesty do not like skins in RTS games, it makes it harder to differentiate units, and there might be over 100 on the screen at once. It works better in MOBA and FPS games, even I think it makes the gameplay worse there too.
we actually already have skins, thoughts on how they are implemented currently? you can get an army accent for your exo right now. Also, it could be a pet or fog of war shader too, or a player title/banner. I think there are many options doesnt have to be skins but give us something to motivate us to play and grind ladder.
|
The problem are not the skins but the showing off of the skins to your opponent.
All it takes is a "show opponent skin" checkmark somewhere. At least for ranked.
|
I am very much anti skin, but I'm not going disregard the fact they are probably the best way to generate money.
If implemented they need to be extremely subtle, to the point where they are hard to notice. If they alter the silhouette at all then it's an absolute no.
Pretty sure they already announced portraits and achievements recently.
|
I hate skins, but as Harris1st mentioned, all it takes is a "Show opponent skin" toggle. If you want, you can even have that option disabled outside of ranked.
My heart says it'd be less of an issue in RTS, because mobas these days have 100+ units and typically require you to recognize abilities quick enough to know how to dodge them... but then I think back to Reforged's release and how much worse the reforged skins made visibility in that game.
Maybe the best of both worlds allows YOU to pick how you see your opponent's skins, either default or your favourite infernal skins or what-have-you.
|
Skins will likely be a major revenue source for them, along with the campaign. I imagine they'll want them to be displayed.
Unless, does a game like League or DOTA2 allow you to disable skins completely? I guess those are also free to play under a similar model.
|
On July 30 2025 03:43 SoleSteeler wrote:
Skins will likely be a major revenue source for them, along with the campaign. I imagine they'll want them to be displayed.
Unless, does a game like League or DOTA2 allow you to disable skins completely? I guess those are also free to play under a similar model.
No. A large part of having a skin is knowing other people can "admire" them. If you remove that you lose some people that would have bought it. If you are in the non-buyer camp you are only adding value by lowering queue time/driving engagement for the actual customers.
|
I have no faith in performance improvements. I'm convinced that part of the team has no idea what it is doing. I remember my game used to crash constantly and they were just spouting nonsense. I was communicating directly with staff on discord and It lasted for months and like no one understood my situation. They wanted me to like send screenshots of the unreal fatal crash screen for them to diagnose (and then sometimes I wouldn't even get that the game would just close and there would be nothing.) then they would say ok thanks and a performance patch would release and nothing would change. Eventually after 2 or 3 performance improvement patches and nothing changing I gave up on them knowing how to fix this. Stormgate was the only game that would crash while I was able to play brand new AAA releases. Turns out my CPU usage was 100% and it couldn't sustain the game so I replaced that and it was fine but none of their "performance" updates did anything, and I think Frost Giant needs to seriously get this under wraps. It's not just me, this is feedback I've seen EVERYWHERE. on forums, on discord, on steam reviews. There is a joke people say when they launch stormgate it sounds like their computer is about to take off in flight or explode. It's nice for people who have decent PCs don't encounter these issues, but as someone who can play cyberpunk, can play Elden Ring, why couldn't I play stormgate? Optimization was, and still sorta is in the toilet. Again, I don't know where you spent your 30-40 million but you spent it very poorly. Wow, just thinking about it makes me want to rant about 5 other things. Going to stop now. Fix your performance. This is one of the most crucial parts of a games success for obvious reasons. Look at Wuchang Fallen Feathers which just released. Check the steam reviews. Everyone loves the game, but it's Mostly Negative on steam. Why? Because every single negative review is about performance and there are a wholeee lot of them.
|
On July 30 2025 07:41 CicadaSC wrote:
I have no faith in performance improvements. I'm convinced that part of the team has no idea what it is doing. I remember my game used to crash constantly and they were just spouting nonsense. I was communicating directly with staff on discord and It lasted for months and like no one understood my situation. They wanted me to like send screenshots of the unreal fatal crash screen for them to diagnose (and then sometimes I wouldn't even get that the game would just close and there would be nothing.) then they would say ok thanks and a performance patch would release and nothing would change. Eventually after 2 or 3 performance improvement patches and nothing changing I gave up on them knowing how to fix this. Stormgate was the only game that would crash while I was able to play brand new AAA releases. Turns out my CPU usage was 100% and it couldn't sustain the game so I replaced that and it was fine but none of their "performance" updates did anything, and I think Frost Giant needs to seriously get this under wraps. It's not just me, this is feedback I've seen EVERYWHERE. on forums, on discord, on steam reviews. There is a joke people say when they launch stormgate it sounds like their computer is about to take off in flight or explode. It's nice for people who have decent PCs don't encounter these issues, but as someone who can play cyberpunk, can play Elden Ring, why couldn't I play stormgate? Optimization was, and still sorta is in the toilet. Again, I don't know where you spent your 30-40 million but you spent it very poorly. Wow, just thinking about it makes me rant about 5 other things. Going to stop now. Fix your performance. This is one of the most crucial parts of a games success for obvious reasons. Look at Wuchang Fallen Feathers which just released. Check the steam reviews. Everyone loves the game, but it's Mostly Negative on steam. Why? Because every single negative review is about performance and there are a wholeee lot of them.
I think a lot of people think if they can run SC2 they can run this game as well. Single player games don't have high CPU requirements. A late game 2v2 SC2 game from 2010 would have more CPU requirements than most single player AAA games.
Simulation games require a lot of CPU power, and since they've increased the tick rate substantially, it also increases the CPU reqs substantially (as I understand it). Less optimization + higher tick rate = much stronger CPU needed than other simulation games (which is mostly multiplayer games).
So what CPU do you have, I'm curious?
I have a 7800x3D and the game runs very smoothly for me. When I had an i5-6600 (a 10 year old CPU) it ran decently in 1v1 (playable, but much less so late game) but co-op was basically unplayable after 3-4 minutes.
|
Feels like any performace issues they still have are a big fumble. I don't think most players playing SC2 looked at it and said that it is unrensponsive or overly laggy. Surely more precision through tickrate is nice and a good lag compensation setup could maybe allow more valid competition over bigger distances or so, but none of that is even remotely as important as a game that runs smoothly on wide variety of hardware and gameplay scenarios.
I don't know if they made some binding promises on Kickstarter or if they're otherwise unable to change the underlying approach, but it feels like at some point they should have pivoted from the original plan and made some compromises to ensure the performance is sufficient at the big launches.
|
Northern Ireland27355 Posts
On July 31 2025 02:26 Bacillus wrote:
Feels like any performace issues they still have are a big fumble. I don't think most players playing SC2 looked at it and said that it is unrensponsive or overly laggy. Surely more precision through tickrate is nice and a good lag compensation setup could maybe allow more valid competition over bigger distances or so, but none of that is even remotely as important as a game that runs smoothly on wide variety of hardware and gameplay scenarios.
I don't know if they made some binding promises on Kickstarter or if they're otherwise unable to change the underlying approach, but it feels like at some point they should have pivoted from the original plan and made some compromises to ensure the performance is sufficient at the big launches.
Agreed. In terms of feel, and something that is actually noticeable, versus technically more responsive, can you even really improve from SC2? And the pathing not being quite as good (still decent) basically immediately wipes out any response improvement in terms of feel anyway
A good lag compensation system, now that is a real tangible improvement if it works well.
I think it’s doubly a mistake as, least myself and many of my SC buddies from our local scene don’t tend to have real high-end hardware. What’s the point if many of the games you play are either old, or built for performance and visual clarity over demanding high fidelity?
Granted I’m going anecdotally and with my gut one that one, but I wouldn’t imagine it’s atypical.
|
I much prefer stormgate's unit micro to sc2. If you want to pull a singular unit back in front it doesn't try to walk around your units, it will just path into your own repeatedly unless you move the units behind. Makes it much more similar to war3 and other games. Of course that's just preference but it allows skill expression, and I don't consider it "fighting" with the controls.
If they're going to tackle any issue with unit behavior it should the logic for at least move commands to avoid clumping, unless something like two clicks in close proximity. the 4+ ultra repetitive actions of keeping your concave for engagements is tiresome, with how frequent it is required. (Box click, box click, for your 3 segment arc to infinity).
It just turns into a mindless apm sink that you can't ignore because of its importance. And yes they added the click drag arc but the units still converge too quickly.
The rollback isn't great since it isn't smooth. When it occurs the stutters are typically jarring. It's pretty frequent vs korean opponents, but it's miserable for both parties whenever it occurs since whoever is going to be pulling back is basically forfeiting X units for free depending on the armies.
Competitive players are always going to use the lowest visual settings to get maximum performance and the least amount of visual noise, but I do recall reading that higher settings had significant resources devoted to map/weather/environment rendering and that is absurd if it's that noticeable.
|
Going through Tim Mortens secret reddit account https://www.reddit.com/user/voidlegacy.
Its just fantastic. I am surprised at how poor he is at hiding at. Tbh in his position I would probably do a similar thing but I would paranoid about anyone figuring out things. I think I would also make more comments around game-design. E.g. if people say this unit is dumb, I would try to explain the rationale for why it could lead to good games.
One interesting comment from him.
Stormgate's success hinges on their 1.0 version. Either Frost Giant will raise the funding to get there, or they won't. Obsessing over current CCU is pointless. Their ability to fundraise is going to be about investors' belief in their long-term vision. You can doomsay (or conversely cheer them on) as much as you feel like, but no one here has actual insight into investor mindset. We'll all just have time wait and see.
I guess this isn't really the 1.0 they imagined. So with that, I think it's fair to say Tim believes it's dead.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
