EPTI just played a game with Ziz, Testie, etc., and half of them had bracers or talismans or something. They seem like such a waste; they just get sold halfway through the game. :/
[H] DotA items - Page 33
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rpf
United States2705 Posts
I just played a game with Ziz, Testie, etc., and half of them had bracers or talismans or something. They seem like such a waste; they just get sold halfway through the game. :/ | ||
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paper
13196 Posts
Just get a point booster if you're int/(range)agi or a vit booster if youre (melee)agi/str if you're in dire need of some HP. :| Reasoning: same cost, same benefit, less space, can be used later for heart, vanguard, skadi, soul, etc. You shouldn't look to testie/zizou etc. for perfect advice or as a level you're aiming for -_- They're still learning as well, and shooting for what they are today will just cripple you later. Think about this shit on your own and experiment. DotA is still a changing game. But sadist aura > stats. Oh hi. | ||
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rpf
United States2705 Posts
I mean, if you buy five branches, that 285 gold, and plus five to all stats. If you go circlets, the best you can do is plus four to all stats for 370 gold. One last hit negates selling two branches, and by the time you sell one branch it's completely insignificant anyhow. I don't know, I just get so confused because I still see people I'd see as "good" spamming bracers when people at their level just tell me to go branches and see what's really needed. :/ It sucks spending 1020 gold on bracers just to sell them 10 minutes later when branches would have been more efficient. | ||
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Judicator
United States7270 Posts
On February 06 2008 04:45 rpf wrote: The reason I get so hung up on starting items is because whenever I ask, people I perceive as "good" players always tell me to go tangoes and branches. But then when I play with them, they go bracers and it seems contradictory. I just played a game with Ziz, Testie, etc., and half of them had bracers or talismans or something. They seem like such a waste; they just get sold halfway through the game. :/ Bad habit to get into, I use to have the habit of going for 2 of starting sets. Adapt your item builds, even your starting ones to the heroes you are playing against and playing with. Bracers are needed if you are constantly being focused in fights, otherwise you can just grab a few circlets or branches. | ||
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Judicator
United States7270 Posts
On February 06 2008 05:20 paper wrote: IMO, two bracers are a waste of money in the games you're playing because you can just level up & get stats to raise HP. Just get a point booster if you're int/(range)agi or a vit booster if youre (melee)agi/str if you're in dire need of some HP. :| Reasoning: same cost, same benefit, less space, can be used later for heart, vanguard, skadi, soul, etc. You shouldn't look to testie/zizou etc. for perfect advice or as a level you're aiming for -_- They're still learning as well, and shooting for what they are today will just cripple you later. Think about this shit on your own and experiment. DotA is still a changing game. But sadist aura > stats. Oh hi. Sadist aura...no...last hitting with Necro is hard enough without having a 150+ mana costing spell that early. Vit booster....no...two bracers cost less for marginally less HP and more EHP (1.08*HP), and more int. Not to mention regens and possibly +12 is big damage early. Point Booster situational buy, personally I get this if possible early for Lesh, Necro and other heroes that I might remotely consider making Scepter later (much much much later). | ||
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rpf
United States2705 Posts
On February 06 2008 06:41 Judicator wrote: Bad habit to get into, I use to have the habit of going for 2 of starting sets. Adapt your item builds, even your starting ones to the heroes you are playing against and playing with. Bracers are needed if you are constantly being focused in fights, otherwise you can just grab a few circlets or branches. I totally agree. Unfortunately, I'm one of those people who is very methodological, and so my mind naturally loves things that work out well. I tend to characterize heroes by their main stat, their attack type (ranged vs. melee), and their spell types (spammable, chain casted, etc.). The game doesn't quite work that way, so I tend to get hung up on stupid things. | ||
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BlueRoyaL
United States2493 Posts
branches are good on heroes that you wouldn't need to make any bracers/band/nulls on because they're really cheap and give a quick boost to hp/mana early game. heroes like qop or jug are an example of where i would probably just get branches because they benefit well from the extra mana pool but they need to save gold for their mid-late game items. bracers imo are really situational and dependant on your hero. if your hero has really low hp might as well grab one or two, it can really save you. i remember playing this game laned vs lina/sven and we were getting our asses rocked til we bought some bracers - 0-;; | ||
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rpf
United States2705 Posts
I prefer to get bracers/bands/talismans as more of a reaction than a "standard build." | ||
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LeoTheLion
China958 Posts
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paper
13196 Posts
On February 06 2008 06:52 Judicator wrote: Sadist aura...no...last hitting with Necro is hard enough without having a 150+ mana costing spell that early. Vit booster....no...two bracers cost less for marginally less HP and more EHP (1.08*HP), and more int. Not to mention regens and possibly +12 is big damage early. Point Booster situational buy, personally I get this if possible early for Lesh, Necro and other heroes that I might remotely consider making Scepter later (much much much later). Last hitting is hard enough? What kind of logic is that? You could probably say that for 90% of all the heroes if lyte's attack animation / dmg is "hard enough." The hp regen is sooo negligible, even more than your 1.08 * early game HP, and +12 only applies ~1/3 of the time. The only redeeming factor is the +mana (although point booster does that too, and better), but, oh, hi sadist aura. You're not going to be spamming your skills at level 2. -_- Obv, buying a point/vit booster every game is using the same train of thought as buying two bracers every game, but it was advice tailored to rpf because HP is something noobs are always lacking and the boosters help gear them toward a higher tier item. | ||
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Judicator
United States7270 Posts
On February 07 2008 05:00 paper wrote: Last hitting is hard enough? What kind of logic is that? You could probably say that for 90% of all the heroes if lyte's attack animation / dmg is "hard enough." The hp regen is sooo negligible, even more than your 1.08 * early game HP, and +12 only applies ~1/3 of the time. The only redeeming factor is the +mana (although point booster does that too, and better), but, oh, hi sadist aura. You're not going to be spamming your skills at level 2. -_- Obv, buying a point/vit booster every game is using the same train of thought as buying two bracers every game, but it was advice tailored to rpf because HP is something noobs are always lacking and the boosters help gear them toward a higher tier item. Wow, you don't really pay attention playing DotA do you? Look at Necro's base damage, yeah ok, 44-48 pretty low and his animation isn't the fastest in the world, he doesn't have a stun like Lina, his spell requires him to charge towards the enemy early but he really doesn't have the health/mana to do it effectively. So logically you are going to get Sadist to return mana for a spell that you probably won't be able to use effectively, instead of going for stats which help your hp and mana issues, yes thats the logical thing to do with hero that gets one of the lower int growths in the game. And level 3 is a popular time for dual lanes to make a pass at one of the opposing heroes. 2 Bracers >>> Boosters, I already proved that in my previous post. Lets put it this way, every time I have seen Necro used in leagues, no one has ever leveled Sadist past one. | ||
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paper
13196 Posts
You are not going to charge in to harass. What the fuck? Why even get death pulse if you can't use it? By your logic, you might as well go stats and diffusal aura because necro apparently can't do shit and has to play defensively. You will use death pulse and you will kill creepS using it, mitigating the cost substantially. Sadist is essentially regen, and regen > higher pools early game. And just because level three is "popular" means you should do it. What the hell? If you can't make a pass, then you don't fucking do it, especially when you essentially claim that necro can't do shit. Your proof was shit, and rpf doesn't play in leagues, as if leagues were the end-all to dota mechanics. | ||
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paper
13196 Posts
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rpf
United States2705 Posts
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IntoTheWow
is awesome32278 Posts
I have been in tons of situations where im left with 50 hp or so with 1 or 2 bracers in my inventory. Without them i would have died. pudge for example is bound to die sometimes when you ge into a abig fight. You have a nice Hp but not as other tanks, your are usually targetted first to stop dismember hook rot whatever. So you need extra HP. Also you need extra hp if you are ganking other tanks with mroe HP than you. Some heroes benefit a lot from this items. Harbringer more mana + damage + ulti power, Troll more damage + HP (shitty hp and damage), Necro for last hitting for mana, more mana pool, more hp -> everything helps you survive. I love buying them on heroes who shine in early mid game, they give you a little edge to abuse your momentum. | ||
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IntoTheWow
is awesome32278 Posts
On February 07 2008 05:00 paper wrote: Last hitting is hard enough? What kind of logic is that? You could probably say that for 90% of all the heroes if lyte's attack animation / dmg is "hard enough." The hp regen is sooo negligible, even more than your 1.08 * early game HP, and +12 only applies ~1/3 of the time. The only redeeming factor is the +mana (although point booster does that too, and better), but, oh, hi sadist aura. You're not going to be spamming your skills at level 2. -_- Obv, buying a point/vit booster every game is using the same train of thought as buying two bracers every game, but it was advice tailored to rpf because HP is something noobs are always lacking and the boosters help gear them toward a higher tier item. The necros attacking delay is awful. On some 50ms or less games i play its not a big deal maybe. But when you also deal with 200ms + necro delay attack + not big attack, heroes with a good base damage will deny you a lot. Those items help necro a lot imo on a close game. + HP + damage for deny + mana for casting. Cheap. Parts can be bought as starting items. What else could you want : O?! | ||
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rpf
United States2705 Posts
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Judicator
United States7270 Posts
On February 07 2008 07:12 paper wrote: His animation is not bad. You are not going to charge in to harass. What the fuck? Why even get death pulse if you can't use it? By your logic, you might as well go stats and diffusal aura because necro apparently can't do shit and has to play defensively. You will use death pulse and you will kill creepS using it, mitigating the cost substantially. Sadist is essentially regen, and regen > higher pools early game. And just because level three is "popular" means you should do it. What the hell? If you can't make a pass, then you don't fucking do it, especially when you essentially claim that necro can't do shit. Your proof was shit, and rpf doesn't play in leagues, as if leagues were the end-all to dota mechanics. His damage coupled with his animation makes him not so good, animation = more than the projectile animation, its the character animation, thats the whole point of animation canceling and why Void has a horrible animation. Look, the game in lanes is more about harassing than CS, any noob can farm in a lane, not many people can stay in a lane. My point about Boosters is that its really not as cost effective for support heroes over Bracers so you should avoid them until you figure out how to work them into games. Necro "can't" do shit because his skills require him to be up close, in other words, hes not a back line nuker like Zeus/Lina. If you feel comfortable charging against heroes early game with a 450 base HP hero go for it. So Sadist, as good as it seems, is less effective than Stats because you aren't going to spam Pulse effectively early game, you need both HP and Mana (especially for a chance at chain casting your ulti @6), your damage/int isn't great and doesn't grow well either. Additionally, Pulse doesn't clear waves (or even the Ranged for that matter) so its effect is further diminished. If you want to think about it a different way, say between the levels of 12-15 and you have your Euls/Book/Dagon or w/e, would you rather have Sadist 4 whose regen really isn't worth that much (or anything) at that point or +8 stats? See the problem with Sadist? It doesn't scale well at all for both against creeps and with your own items. My point is that the way Necro works and plays, you'll benefit more from stat pumping early over Sadist. To put it another way, its the same exact concept with Sand King as no decent SK player goes Caustic over Stats early. And thats with Caustic >>>> Sadist usefulness. | ||
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Judicator
United States7270 Posts
On February 08 2008 01:58 rpf wrote: Nobody is really saying they're bad, just that they aren't always a necessity. I mean, think about it: say you go bracer x 2 on some hero. In that game, maybe you'll need those bracers to stay alive. Maybe you won't need them at all, or maybe you won't need them at all. I'd rather buy branches at the start to "feel out" the opposition and decide if I need any bracers at all, and how many, rather than just blindly buy them at the start when I may not need them. Thats why you need to learn when you know you need to buy branches over circs. Either way, +HP means less trips to fountain and more survivability so its never a horrible buy unless you are carrying. | ||
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Heen
Korea (South)2178 Posts
The way I see it, +stats is much easier to make up with items than it is to get mana regen (or mana cost reduction on death pulse) comparable to sadist. Also, not all lanes are going to be 'difficult' even if the skill level of the game is high. It's what makes necrolyte who he is, fast leveling and farming, which makes him one of the better late game casters. | ||
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