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Diablo IV - Page 58

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Miragee
Profile Joined December 2009
8472 Posts
March 28 2023 19:16 GMT
#1141
Well, that was a lot of exclamation marks! :D Interesting and entertaining read though, thanks. I guess I now have to prepare a wall of text as well.
Manit0u
Profile Blog Joined August 2004
Poland17237 Posts
Last Edited: 2023-03-28 19:56:56
March 28 2023 19:47 GMT
#1142
Mentions of D1 bring back so many memories To me it is still probably the best game in the franchise and I totally wouldn't mind D4 being just D1 but maybe with some skill trees (even just passives) and skills for the characters. Simple game with brilliant atmosphere and infinite replayability. I also miss the stats being more meaningful and different classes actually having different caps on stats (no str or vit for you, sorcerer).

I guess the biggest part of it was atmosphere though, and it was the only game in the franchise to do so. Sure your character was pretty slow (but deliberate!) and there were no flashy moves to pull off but the level and sound design made it so you actually felt dread and anxiety deciding if you should brave the next corner. Titles further down the line put you in a lot more open spaces with clear visibility so the sense of claustrophobia and scotophobia was gone with all the narrow labyrynthine corridors and strange sounds in the dark of D1...



Time is precious. Waste it wisely.
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
Last Edited: 2023-03-28 19:53:56
March 28 2023 19:48 GMT
#1143
On March 28 2023 11:44 Vindicare605 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 28 2023 11:15 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:
And how many of those builds are solely due to the vastly increased drop rates for the beta? Legendries should affect skills not be needed to do actual damage.

Also keep in mind 6 slots are not a lot to most of the classes. Two are already taken but then Necros, and Druids would need 2 more for their summons. Wolves, and Vine. Skels and Golem. So now that leaves only two left. Ridiculous.


Summons are not mandatory bro.

You can very easily play Druid without using summons and Necros have an entire mechanic around getting passive bonuses for giving up your summons. It's meant to be a choice, not: you get to have EVERYTHING you want all at once.


They will if Blizz changes nothing from now till June, which I think they will. Necros by all accounts, and have to summons in order to do compatible damage...
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
Miragee
Profile Joined December 2009
8472 Posts
March 28 2023 20:17 GMT
#1144
On March 29 2023 04:47 Manit0u wrote:
Mentions of D1 bring back so many memories To me it is still probably the best game in the franchise and I totally wouldn't mind D4 being just D1 but maybe with some skill trees (even just passives) and skills for the characters. Simple game with brilliant atmosphere and infinite replayability. I also miss the stats being more meaningful and different classes actually having different caps on stats (no str or vit for you, sorcerer).

I guess the biggest part of it was atmosphere though, and it was the only game in the franchise to do so. Sure your character was pretty slow (but deliberate!) and there were no flashy moves to pull off but the level and sound design made it so you actually felt dread and anxiety deciding if you should brave the next corner. Titles further down the line put you in a lot more open spaces with clear visibility so the sense of claustrophobia and scotophobia was gone with all the narrow labyrynthine corridors and strange sounds in the dark of D1...


D1 certainly had the best atmosphere. You described it with the correct words. It's a great display of story-telling without really saying much at all. It just takes a few words of some NPCs combined with going deeper and deeper into the dark unknown of a dungeon with dangerous monsters and some nightmarish sounds to accompany it. The rest happens in your head. I had a similar experience in Legend of Grimrock.
However, lets not forget that D1 was not balanced at all, something that seems to concern everyone nowadays. I remember when I played warrior and really struggled for some time until I hit enough block and the rest of the game was super easy. I was afraid of Diablo and killed everything in the area beforehand, only to face-tank him without losing any life until he dropped dead. That was very anticlimactic.
Manit0u
Profile Blog Joined August 2004
Poland17237 Posts
Last Edited: 2023-03-28 20:52:43
March 28 2023 20:47 GMT
#1145
On March 29 2023 05:17 Miragee wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 29 2023 04:47 Manit0u wrote:
Mentions of D1 bring back so many memories To me it is still probably the best game in the franchise and I totally wouldn't mind D4 being just D1 but maybe with some skill trees (even just passives) and skills for the characters. Simple game with brilliant atmosphere and infinite replayability. I also miss the stats being more meaningful and different classes actually having different caps on stats (no str or vit for you, sorcerer).

I guess the biggest part of it was atmosphere though, and it was the only game in the franchise to do so. Sure your character was pretty slow (but deliberate!) and there were no flashy moves to pull off but the level and sound design made it so you actually felt dread and anxiety deciding if you should brave the next corner. Titles further down the line put you in a lot more open spaces with clear visibility so the sense of claustrophobia and scotophobia was gone with all the narrow labyrynthine corridors and strange sounds in the dark of D1...


D1 certainly had the best atmosphere. You described it with the correct words. It's a great display of story-telling without really saying much at all. It just takes a few words of some NPCs combined with going deeper and deeper into the dark unknown of a dungeon with dangerous monsters and some nightmarish sounds to accompany it. The rest happens in your head. I had a similar experience in Legend of Grimrock.
However, lets not forget that D1 was not balanced at all, something that seems to concern everyone nowadays. I remember when I played warrior and really struggled for some time until I hit enough block and the rest of the game was super easy. I was afraid of Diablo and killed everything in the area beforehand, only to face-tank him without losing any life until he dropped dead. That was very anticlimactic.


Obviously it could be updated, I'm just surprised that this core concept has been abandoned in pursuit of flashy moves and big damage. No one is discussing how cool or scary some stuff in Diablo is any more, just how many hits it takes to clear a bunch of mobs. They obviously don't remember the times when you had to swing like a dozen times to kill one dude while being attacked and stunlocked by a horde of them (but you did feel a sense of accomplishment when you got them) or how you dropped all of your eq upon death and it didn't respawn in town so if you didn't get it back it was gone forever.

Basically, we went from comparing stories to comparing numbers. I still remember some minor elites from D1 because I have epic nightmare stories with them, when it comes to D3 I have a hard time recalling any enemies really, the only thing that comes to mind is this one boss that I don't even know what it looks like because it died before it showed up on my screen...
Time is precious. Waste it wisely.
Archeon
Profile Joined May 2011
3253 Posts
Last Edited: 2023-03-28 23:35:04
March 28 2023 22:30 GMT
#1146
On March 29 2023 04:06 KrillinFromwales wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +
Rather disappointed that I cannot stay shapeshifted to either a werebear or werewolf! The skills are lackluster for the quantity involved and I daresay I preferred the Rune system of Diablo 3 to the spec system of D4! I am sorry to all the people who really disliked Diablo 3!

A lot of time seems to have been invested in creating rather similar dungeons and cellars across Sanctuary. I think this is OK but not great. The filler content feels somewhat MMO-like in its mundane presentation. I tend to agree with the previous posters about a rather bleak atmosphere in the Fragmented Peaks and that the skill system could use a considerable expansion. It is not very aesthetically pleasing!

The cooldowns are too long on many skills! Again, I hate to say this but I think Diablo 3's system was somewhat superior in that I could at least use many of my skills frequently. I like to roar as a Druid but cannot roar very often! I did not like the legendaries! There are too many class-specific properties of legendaries at this point and it just reinforces my disappointment in the skill tree!

Overall I am worried about the game! I did not like the Adria dynamic with Leah in Diablo 3, and I did not like the beta content. What could possibly by so seductive about traveling with Lilith? Of course it's a very narrow premise and then to your disappointment it ends exactly as you would expect! The story was very disappointing! I was disappointed Rathma was dead!

I think people want to be very excited for Diablo 4 as Blizzard has not released something catering to its traditional fanbase in some time. But I think the game is focusing on creating content and is too mechanistic in its approach! There is a lot of stuff but it is not compelling! I think of Diablo 1 as the benchmark for the franchise, and Diablo 1 was compelling because the quests were varied and interesting. There seemed to be a point to completing them and then you were rewarded with a unique item! But in this game the quests are very similar, and there are only so many instances where I rescue someone's son or daughter or wife or whatever before I just don't care about the NPCs. Can't they ever do anything compelling themselves? There are so many stupid minor problems in Sanctuary of various possessions and disappearances and so on. Well that's just how it is! The developers need to show some priorities and make the hero a little more compelling!

In the previous Diablo games you were not burdened by a bunch of mishaps like cats stuck in trees or dogs with their tongues frozen to fire hydrants. If there are really going to be 500 side quests, then I think the game will be really disappointing. I would have preferred a more expansive storyline and not so much busywork. Personally I did not care for the MMO-elements. I did not like upgrading my potions! What point could this possibly serve?

Ugh. Well I am somewhat sorry this rant is headed this way. Overall I find the larger world interesting. I like the big towns and a few of the wild quests (coming upon some event). I think the stronghold system is kind of cool--that you're transforming the world as you go. Hopefully this will serve a compelling purpose and not just yield entrance to a single dungeon. I miss my companion from Diablo 2 & 3. I found the companion to be the most interesting part of certain games & I think if executed correctly that companion adds a lot! I certainly hope we get a companion in the final release!

Once upon a time I think Diablo 1 had the perfect qualities of brevity and darkness. I do not think I will appreciate the darkness in this game if it is built upon thin premises. I do not want to trail stupid NPCs who align themselves with Lords of Hell. If the Lords of Hell are to be worth their salt then mortal people should be staying well away from them. Lilith shouldn't require any assistance in simply traversing the world. I was similarly disappointed with Rathma! The first Necromancer and so on. So far his mention has added nothing!

I do not at all like having to rely upon people like Neyrelle. Constantly aiding and searching for Neyrelle is stupid. A lot of these defenseless mortals should simply die walking around with the hero. They don't have any training or means of defending themselves and it's not plausible for them to survive the journey. Why do I need her to open doors or read books or anything whatsoever. Personally I am not going to evaluate the beta story any better than the Diablo 3 story (which was not all that great).

As for content I think the game needs to be much more focused and that if some of the manhours were invested in working on an innovative continuation it would be much better. What I mean is that Rifts and Greater Rifts were aiming to address something (and they didn't do it all that well). On the other hand, the intention is to acknowledge a direction for the game. If the manhours from cellars and various dungeons were invested in some new innovative approach to continuation that would be wonderful. Why can't there be multiple "purposes" to an act? Perhaps a pronged approach would be best wherein the hero could advance some more intriguing plots (like Duran in Starcraft). Again, I really don't see the point of adding countless dungeons just to quiet the voices that some NPC hears at night or collect Druid Sap for some shaman. These quests belong in an MMO but not in Diablo! There should be more significant plot points!

The game is pretty dreary as someone pointed out previously. I hope there is a more colorful presentation to some of the later acts. I don't have a perfect eye for art although I am something of an artist. Nevertheless, I find the slue of reds and greys to blend together all too much. To be honest, I do not find many of the enemies visually appealing. They are either red grey black or tan and do not have significant features. Many times I find them to be monotonous and almost homogeous until the red attack outline appears upon them!

While the quality of the graphics is not bad I just do not like the artwork!

Well, I have ranted a lot, but I was expecting a lot from this game! In summary, I hope the lords of hell will be more compelling in future acts, and that they won't randomly enlist people to no real point and purpose. If there were some grand scheme of corruption then that would be excellent--something somewhat political and focused. Furthermore, I hope the references to religious subject matter will be less overbearing! I do not really like this aspect of Diablo 4! The hero isn't supposed to see or hear struggles of free will versus demonic corruption! There needs to be the subtle undertone of blatant obviousness! It should be granted that Sanctuary is facing real virtually, omnipotent demons and no amount of Earth-bound orthodox religion will be of any use. Overall, I really did not like this plot arc either! The Reverend Mother Prava and so on. With a zillion, real demons roaming the wide world (apparently everywhere and taking over every town in sight) there is no way anyone would pay the slightest heed to her.

Well, I guess I am just in for disappointment! Although I watched many reviews (some positive and some negative) I guess my own take is profoundly negative! I hope the hero will be more heroic as the game progresses and will not have so many crutches for exploring Sanctuary. I hope the lords of hell will be more compelling as the game progresses and will actually have some discernible plot toward malevolence. I hope no more trivial events will inspire such focus (as it is obviously the purpose of the demons to cause mischief). I hope the skill tree shows more promise, and that some universal skills are added. I hope there is more purpose to the open world than has been presented thus far! In short I am not very optimistic, but thanks for listening to my rambling!


I disagree with some of the criticism of the story tbh. Neyrelle is a pupil of something like a mixture of Horadrim and graverobber, which in this world where every grave is filled with undead means she's probably a hundred times more qualified than the hero. I also think it's quite early in the story, we aren't talking about her running along to fight the prime evil but mostly a bunch of fallen and their like, enemies a decently skilled warrior like the sisterhood could easily dispatch in D2 f.e. too. Her mother got corrupted by the major antagonist easily enough.

I also don't agree on the religion part. Inarius, the core of the religion, is very real to the point where it's followers can literally visit him (even if he's a dick) and some of the prayers are shown to grant protection and drive out demons in the story. I also don't think the demons are as omnipresent and omnipotent as you make them out to be, I think their presence is growing with Lilith's return and before that they were more of a rare encounter. The exorcist questline has the preacher very shocked to find someone so possessed that the demon could resist her prayer (which is shown to work on a weaker demon before). To boot most of the demons in the game come from human sin, so following a church that tries to teach a way to stay away from that makes perfect sense, because only a religious society is a safe society in this context. And generally there's a tendency that the more dreadful the situation the more religious people become IRL.

Overall I was very positively surprised by the story because to me it felt palpable and think that if demons existed we'd see them succeed in the way portrayed, by feeding on human weaknesses. Considering that in D3 and throughout most of D2 demons and humans were mostly separated into the tide of hell vs the poor victims I think this is a very good change that gives the universe a lot of depth.

I agree on the MMO aspects though, I like the larger world, but I hate all the 'gather this shit' 'upgrade your potions' 'use an emote' elements and especially the emote part felt jarring to me. I thought most of the quests were a good way to show how people fell to corruption which is Lilith's theme so far, but maybe I just got the good ones, there's a lot of them. I'm also not sure the level scaling works out the way it is right now, as a melee Rogue I felt like 95% of the fights were too easy and 5% of the fights were very very hard and considering that the world all is on the same level this may become a problem with less excessive unique drops.
low gravity, yes-yes!
andrewlt
Profile Joined August 2009
United States7702 Posts
March 29 2023 00:43 GMT
#1147
On March 29 2023 05:47 Manit0u wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 29 2023 05:17 Miragee wrote:
On March 29 2023 04:47 Manit0u wrote:
Mentions of D1 bring back so many memories To me it is still probably the best game in the franchise and I totally wouldn't mind D4 being just D1 but maybe with some skill trees (even just passives) and skills for the characters. Simple game with brilliant atmosphere and infinite replayability. I also miss the stats being more meaningful and different classes actually having different caps on stats (no str or vit for you, sorcerer).

I guess the biggest part of it was atmosphere though, and it was the only game in the franchise to do so. Sure your character was pretty slow (but deliberate!) and there were no flashy moves to pull off but the level and sound design made it so you actually felt dread and anxiety deciding if you should brave the next corner. Titles further down the line put you in a lot more open spaces with clear visibility so the sense of claustrophobia and scotophobia was gone with all the narrow labyrynthine corridors and strange sounds in the dark of D1...


D1 certainly had the best atmosphere. You described it with the correct words. It's a great display of story-telling without really saying much at all. It just takes a few words of some NPCs combined with going deeper and deeper into the dark unknown of a dungeon with dangerous monsters and some nightmarish sounds to accompany it. The rest happens in your head. I had a similar experience in Legend of Grimrock.
However, lets not forget that D1 was not balanced at all, something that seems to concern everyone nowadays. I remember when I played warrior and really struggled for some time until I hit enough block and the rest of the game was super easy. I was afraid of Diablo and killed everything in the area beforehand, only to face-tank him without losing any life until he dropped dead. That was very anticlimactic.


Obviously it could be updated, I'm just surprised that this core concept has been abandoned in pursuit of flashy moves and big damage. No one is discussing how cool or scary some stuff in Diablo is any more, just how many hits it takes to clear a bunch of mobs. They obviously don't remember the times when you had to swing like a dozen times to kill one dude while being attacked and stunlocked by a horde of them (but you did feel a sense of accomplishment when you got them) or how you dropped all of your eq upon death and it didn't respawn in town so if you didn't get it back it was gone forever.

Basically, we went from comparing stories to comparing numbers. I still remember some minor elites from D1 because I have epic nightmare stories with them, when it comes to D3 I have a hard time recalling any enemies really, the only thing that comes to mind is this one boss that I don't even know what it looks like because it died before it showed up on my screen...


I have fond memories of Diablo 1. I remember being very deliberate in blocking off areas with my warrior so I can melee with as few demons hitting me as possible. And also of kiting very big areas with my rogue to kill a group with so much hp.

Then Diablo 2 increased player and mob mobility so much. And when you get enough mana steal items, you can keep spamming your skills all over the screen.

I welcomed Diablo 3's generator and spender system because it slowed the gameplay back down to somewhere between D1 and D2. For a brief time early in the game, it worked. Then they added Marauder set machine-gun sentries. After that, Tal Rasha Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan Blue Ultra Instinct Silver kamehameha all over the screen mode.
KrillinFromwales
Profile Blog Joined March 2022
51 Posts
March 29 2023 00:56 GMT
#1148
On March 29 2023 07:30 Archeon wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 29 2023 04:06 KrillinFromwales wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +
Rather disappointed that I cannot stay shapeshifted to either a werebear or werewolf! The skills are lackluster for the quantity involved and I daresay I preferred the Rune system of Diablo 3 to the spec system of D4! I am sorry to all the people who really disliked Diablo 3!

A lot of time seems to have been invested in creating rather similar dungeons and cellars across Sanctuary. I think this is OK but not great. The filler content feels somewhat MMO-like in its mundane presentation. I tend to agree with the previous posters about a rather bleak atmosphere in the Fragmented Peaks and that the skill system could use a considerable expansion. It is not very aesthetically pleasing!

The cooldowns are too long on many skills! Again, I hate to say this but I think Diablo 3's system was somewhat superior in that I could at least use many of my skills frequently. I like to roar as a Druid but cannot roar very often! I did not like the legendaries! There are too many class-specific properties of legendaries at this point and it just reinforces my disappointment in the skill tree!

Overall I am worried about the game! I did not like the Adria dynamic with Leah in Diablo 3, and I did not like the beta content. What could possibly by so seductive about traveling with Lilith? Of course it's a very narrow premise and then to your disappointment it ends exactly as you would expect! The story was very disappointing! I was disappointed Rathma was dead!

I think people want to be very excited for Diablo 4 as Blizzard has not released something catering to its traditional fanbase in some time. But I think the game is focusing on creating content and is too mechanistic in its approach! There is a lot of stuff but it is not compelling! I think of Diablo 1 as the benchmark for the franchise, and Diablo 1 was compelling because the quests were varied and interesting. There seemed to be a point to completing them and then you were rewarded with a unique item! But in this game the quests are very similar, and there are only so many instances where I rescue someone's son or daughter or wife or whatever before I just don't care about the NPCs. Can't they ever do anything compelling themselves? There are so many stupid minor problems in Sanctuary of various possessions and disappearances and so on. Well that's just how it is! The developers need to show some priorities and make the hero a little more compelling!

In the previous Diablo games you were not burdened by a bunch of mishaps like cats stuck in trees or dogs with their tongues frozen to fire hydrants. If there are really going to be 500 side quests, then I think the game will be really disappointing. I would have preferred a more expansive storyline and not so much busywork. Personally I did not care for the MMO-elements. I did not like upgrading my potions! What point could this possibly serve?

Ugh. Well I am somewhat sorry this rant is headed this way. Overall I find the larger world interesting. I like the big towns and a few of the wild quests (coming upon some event). I think the stronghold system is kind of cool--that you're transforming the world as you go. Hopefully this will serve a compelling purpose and not just yield entrance to a single dungeon. I miss my companion from Diablo 2 & 3. I found the companion to be the most interesting part of certain games & I think if executed correctly that companion adds a lot! I certainly hope we get a companion in the final release!

Once upon a time I think Diablo 1 had the perfect qualities of brevity and darkness. I do not think I will appreciate the darkness in this game if it is built upon thin premises. I do not want to trail stupid NPCs who align themselves with Lords of Hell. If the Lords of Hell are to be worth their salt then mortal people should be staying well away from them. Lilith shouldn't require any assistance in simply traversing the world. I was similarly disappointed with Rathma! The first Necromancer and so on. So far his mention has added nothing!

I do not at all like having to rely upon people like Neyrelle. Constantly aiding and searching for Neyrelle is stupid. A lot of these defenseless mortals should simply die walking around with the hero. They don't have any training or means of defending themselves and it's not plausible for them to survive the journey. Why do I need her to open doors or read books or anything whatsoever. Personally I am not going to evaluate the beta story any better than the Diablo 3 story (which was not all that great).

As for content I think the game needs to be much more focused and that if some of the manhours were invested in working on an innovative continuation it would be much better. What I mean is that Rifts and Greater Rifts were aiming to address something (and they didn't do it all that well). On the other hand, the intention is to acknowledge a direction for the game. If the manhours from cellars and various dungeons were invested in some new innovative approach to continuation that would be wonderful. Why can't there be multiple "purposes" to an act? Perhaps a pronged approach would be best wherein the hero could advance some more intriguing plots (like Duran in Starcraft). Again, I really don't see the point of adding countless dungeons just to quiet the voices that some NPC hears at night or collect Druid Sap for some shaman. These quests belong in an MMO but not in Diablo! There should be more significant plot points!

The game is pretty dreary as someone pointed out previously. I hope there is a more colorful presentation to some of the later acts. I don't have a perfect eye for art although I am something of an artist. Nevertheless, I find the slue of reds and greys to blend together all too much. To be honest, I do not find many of the enemies visually appealing. They are either red grey black or tan and do not have significant features. Many times I find them to be monotonous and almost homogeous until the red attack outline appears upon them!

While the quality of the graphics is not bad I just do not like the artwork!

Well, I have ranted a lot, but I was expecting a lot from this game! In summary, I hope the lords of hell will be more compelling in future acts, and that they won't randomly enlist people to no real point and purpose. If there were some grand scheme of corruption then that would be excellent--something somewhat political and focused. Furthermore, I hope the references to religious subject matter will be less overbearing! I do not really like this aspect of Diablo 4! The hero isn't supposed to see or hear struggles of free will versus demonic corruption! There needs to be the subtle undertone of blatant obviousness! It should be granted that Sanctuary is facing real virtually, omnipotent demons and no amount of Earth-bound orthodox religion will be of any use. Overall, I really did not like this plot arc either! The Reverend Mother Prava and so on. With a zillion, real demons roaming the wide world (apparently everywhere and taking over every town in sight) there is no way anyone would pay the slightest heed to her.

Well, I guess I am just in for disappointment! Although I watched many reviews (some positive and some negative) I guess my own take is profoundly negative! I hope the hero will be more heroic as the game progresses and will not have so many crutches for exploring Sanctuary. I hope the lords of hell will be more compelling as the game progresses and will actually have some discernible plot toward malevolence. I hope no more trivial events will inspire such focus (as it is obviously the purpose of the demons to cause mischief). I hope the skill tree shows more promise, and that some universal skills are added. I hope there is more purpose to the open world than has been presented thus far! In short I am not very optimistic, but thanks for listening to my rambling!


I disagree with some of the criticism of the story tbh. Neyrelle is a pupil of something like a mixture of Horadrim and graverobber, which in this world where every grave is filled with undead means she's probably a hundred times more qualified than the hero. I also think it's quite early in the story, we aren't talking about her running along to fight the prime evil but mostly a bunch of fallen and their like, enemies a decently skilled warrior like the sisterhood could easily dispatch in D2 f.e. too. Her mother got corrupted by the major antagonist easily enough.

I also don't agree on the religion part. Inarius, the core of the religion, is very real to the point where it's followers can literally visit him (even if he's a dick) and some of the prayers are shown to grant protection and drive out demons in the story. I also don't think the demons are as omnipresent and omnipotent as you make them out to be, I think their presence is growing with Lilith's return and before that they were more of a rare encounter. The exorcist questline has the preacher very shocked to find someone so possessed that the demon could resist her prayer (which is shown to work on a weaker demon before). To boot most of the demons in the game come from human sin, so following a church that tries to teach a way to stay away from that makes perfect sense, because only a religious society is a safe society in this context. And generally there's a tendency that the more dreadful the situation the more religious people become IRL.

Overall I was very positively surprised by the story because to me it felt palpable and think that if demons existed we'd see them succeed in the way portrayed, by feeding on human weaknesses. Considering that in D3 and throughout most of D2 demons and humans were mostly separated into the tide of hell vs the poor victims I think this is a very good change that gives the universe a lot of depth.

I agree on the MMO aspects though, I like the larger world, but I hate all the 'gather this shit' 'upgrade your potions' 'use an emote' elements and especially the emote part felt jarring to me. I thought most of the quests were a good way to show how people fell to corruption which is Lilith's theme so far, but maybe I just got the good ones, there's a lot of them. I'm also not sure the level scaling works out the way it is right now, as a melee Rogue I felt like 95% of the fights were too easy and 5% of the fights were very very hard and considering that the world all is on the same level this may become a problem with less excessive unique drops.


Ultimately, I hope you're right. I wasn't really taken by Inarius and the dynamic between Neyrelle and her mother but I guess that's alright, since it's the beginning of the game. It's a narrative but I guess it's just not for me. I suppose I just don't like people "hangin' out." Cain was a pro, obviously, but a lot of the characters just strike me as not being in the right place. Someone compared Leah to a Disney princess (who sort of randomly transforms into Diablo), and that made me laugh. I just want the hero to execute everything himself. Open the doors, read the books, kill the demons, decipher the runes, whatever it is.

I don't have much nice to say so... hehe. Hopefully Inarius will evolve into an interesting angel actually getting some work done. I'd like to see the angels take an active part in the combat. I liked Tyrael in Diablo 2, for instance. I guess we'll see how things unfold. Maybe with the big world there will be a place for a truly malevolent plot. So far, since their introduction, the angels have felt pretty thin. I wouldn't mind seeing more activity between the populace of Sanctuary and the Prime Evils. A lot of Diablo has always been left to imagination but with the open world there are a lot of gaps to fill. Hopefully D4 lives up to expectation.
Harris1st
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Germany6805 Posts
March 29 2023 07:29 GMT
#1149
On March 29 2023 05:47 Manit0u wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 29 2023 05:17 Miragee wrote:
On March 29 2023 04:47 Manit0u wrote:
Mentions of D1 bring back so many memories To me it is still probably the best game in the franchise and I totally wouldn't mind D4 being just D1 but maybe with some skill trees (even just passives) and skills for the characters. Simple game with brilliant atmosphere and infinite replayability. I also miss the stats being more meaningful and different classes actually having different caps on stats (no str or vit for you, sorcerer).

I guess the biggest part of it was atmosphere though, and it was the only game in the franchise to do so. Sure your character was pretty slow (but deliberate!) and there were no flashy moves to pull off but the level and sound design made it so you actually felt dread and anxiety deciding if you should brave the next corner. Titles further down the line put you in a lot more open spaces with clear visibility so the sense of claustrophobia and scotophobia was gone with all the narrow labyrynthine corridors and strange sounds in the dark of D1...


D1 certainly had the best atmosphere. You described it with the correct words. It's a great display of story-telling without really saying much at all. It just takes a few words of some NPCs combined with going deeper and deeper into the dark unknown of a dungeon with dangerous monsters and some nightmarish sounds to accompany it. The rest happens in your head. I had a similar experience in Legend of Grimrock.
However, lets not forget that D1 was not balanced at all, something that seems to concern everyone nowadays. I remember when I played warrior and really struggled for some time until I hit enough block and the rest of the game was super easy. I was afraid of Diablo and killed everything in the area beforehand, only to face-tank him without losing any life until he dropped dead. That was very anticlimactic.


Obviously it could be updated, I'm just surprised that this core concept has been abandoned in pursuit of flashy moves and big damage. No one is discussing how cool or scary some stuff in Diablo is any more, just how many hits it takes to clear a bunch of mobs. They obviously don't remember the times when you had to swing like a dozen times to kill one dude while being attacked and stunlocked by a horde of them (but you did feel a sense of accomplishment when you got them) or how you dropped all of your eq upon death and it didn't respawn in town so if you didn't get it back it was gone forever.

Basically, we went from comparing stories to comparing numbers. I still remember some minor elites from D1 because I have epic nightmare stories with them, when it comes to D3 I have a hard time recalling any enemies really, the only thing that comes to mind is this one boss that I don't even know what it looks like because it died before it showed up on my screen...


The Succubuses were the real endboss in Diablo 1. I remember beeing hit locked by them, chasing them and stuff. A lot of dieing was involved. Probably a bit of crying, too.
Oh and I remember frying all my friends with my chain lightning sorc, because friendly fire hrhrhr.

I played Elden Ring recently and it reminded me a lot of those times where you are scared to open a door or turn a corner. Good times
Go Serral! GG EZ for Ence. Flashbang dance FTW
Manit0u
Profile Blog Joined August 2004
Poland17237 Posts
Last Edited: 2023-03-29 08:48:30
March 29 2023 08:46 GMT
#1150
On March 29 2023 16:29 Harris1st wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 29 2023 05:47 Manit0u wrote:
On March 29 2023 05:17 Miragee wrote:
On March 29 2023 04:47 Manit0u wrote:
Mentions of D1 bring back so many memories To me it is still probably the best game in the franchise and I totally wouldn't mind D4 being just D1 but maybe with some skill trees (even just passives) and skills for the characters. Simple game with brilliant atmosphere and infinite replayability. I also miss the stats being more meaningful and different classes actually having different caps on stats (no str or vit for you, sorcerer).

I guess the biggest part of it was atmosphere though, and it was the only game in the franchise to do so. Sure your character was pretty slow (but deliberate!) and there were no flashy moves to pull off but the level and sound design made it so you actually felt dread and anxiety deciding if you should brave the next corner. Titles further down the line put you in a lot more open spaces with clear visibility so the sense of claustrophobia and scotophobia was gone with all the narrow labyrynthine corridors and strange sounds in the dark of D1...


D1 certainly had the best atmosphere. You described it with the correct words. It's a great display of story-telling without really saying much at all. It just takes a few words of some NPCs combined with going deeper and deeper into the dark unknown of a dungeon with dangerous monsters and some nightmarish sounds to accompany it. The rest happens in your head. I had a similar experience in Legend of Grimrock.
However, lets not forget that D1 was not balanced at all, something that seems to concern everyone nowadays. I remember when I played warrior and really struggled for some time until I hit enough block and the rest of the game was super easy. I was afraid of Diablo and killed everything in the area beforehand, only to face-tank him without losing any life until he dropped dead. That was very anticlimactic.


Obviously it could be updated, I'm just surprised that this core concept has been abandoned in pursuit of flashy moves and big damage. No one is discussing how cool or scary some stuff in Diablo is any more, just how many hits it takes to clear a bunch of mobs. They obviously don't remember the times when you had to swing like a dozen times to kill one dude while being attacked and stunlocked by a horde of them (but you did feel a sense of accomplishment when you got them) or how you dropped all of your eq upon death and it didn't respawn in town so if you didn't get it back it was gone forever.

Basically, we went from comparing stories to comparing numbers. I still remember some minor elites from D1 because I have epic nightmare stories with them, when it comes to D3 I have a hard time recalling any enemies really, the only thing that comes to mind is this one boss that I don't even know what it looks like because it died before it showed up on my screen...


The Succubuses were the real endboss in Diablo 1. I remember beeing hit locked by them, chasing them and stuff. A lot of dieing was involved. Probably a bit of crying, too.
Oh and I remember frying all my friends with my chain lightning sorc, because friendly fire hrhrhr.

I played Elden Ring recently and it reminded me a lot of those times where you are scared to open a door or turn a corner. Good times


Yeah, succubi and sorcerers were really harsh for Warrior. But then again Sorcerer could struggle with the vipers as they were fast and had good resists so if they got to you it wasn't pretty.

So many great monster ideas in D1... Beastmen running away to heal if they got low (and kiting you if they were ranged), doggos that turn to pools of acid (it hurt a lot) when they die etc.
Time is precious. Waste it wisely.
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
March 29 2023 14:04 GMT
#1151
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
andrewlt
Profile Joined August 2009
United States7702 Posts
March 29 2023 15:30 GMT
#1152
On March 29 2023 17:46 Manit0u wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 29 2023 16:29 Harris1st wrote:
On March 29 2023 05:47 Manit0u wrote:
On March 29 2023 05:17 Miragee wrote:
On March 29 2023 04:47 Manit0u wrote:
Mentions of D1 bring back so many memories To me it is still probably the best game in the franchise and I totally wouldn't mind D4 being just D1 but maybe with some skill trees (even just passives) and skills for the characters. Simple game with brilliant atmosphere and infinite replayability. I also miss the stats being more meaningful and different classes actually having different caps on stats (no str or vit for you, sorcerer).

I guess the biggest part of it was atmosphere though, and it was the only game in the franchise to do so. Sure your character was pretty slow (but deliberate!) and there were no flashy moves to pull off but the level and sound design made it so you actually felt dread and anxiety deciding if you should brave the next corner. Titles further down the line put you in a lot more open spaces with clear visibility so the sense of claustrophobia and scotophobia was gone with all the narrow labyrynthine corridors and strange sounds in the dark of D1...


D1 certainly had the best atmosphere. You described it with the correct words. It's a great display of story-telling without really saying much at all. It just takes a few words of some NPCs combined with going deeper and deeper into the dark unknown of a dungeon with dangerous monsters and some nightmarish sounds to accompany it. The rest happens in your head. I had a similar experience in Legend of Grimrock.
However, lets not forget that D1 was not balanced at all, something that seems to concern everyone nowadays. I remember when I played warrior and really struggled for some time until I hit enough block and the rest of the game was super easy. I was afraid of Diablo and killed everything in the area beforehand, only to face-tank him without losing any life until he dropped dead. That was very anticlimactic.


Obviously it could be updated, I'm just surprised that this core concept has been abandoned in pursuit of flashy moves and big damage. No one is discussing how cool or scary some stuff in Diablo is any more, just how many hits it takes to clear a bunch of mobs. They obviously don't remember the times when you had to swing like a dozen times to kill one dude while being attacked and stunlocked by a horde of them (but you did feel a sense of accomplishment when you got them) or how you dropped all of your eq upon death and it didn't respawn in town so if you didn't get it back it was gone forever.

Basically, we went from comparing stories to comparing numbers. I still remember some minor elites from D1 because I have epic nightmare stories with them, when it comes to D3 I have a hard time recalling any enemies really, the only thing that comes to mind is this one boss that I don't even know what it looks like because it died before it showed up on my screen...


The Succubuses were the real endboss in Diablo 1. I remember beeing hit locked by them, chasing them and stuff. A lot of dieing was involved. Probably a bit of crying, too.
Oh and I remember frying all my friends with my chain lightning sorc, because friendly fire hrhrhr.

I played Elden Ring recently and it reminded me a lot of those times where you are scared to open a door or turn a corner. Good times


Yeah, succubi and sorcerers were really harsh for Warrior. But then again Sorcerer could struggle with the vipers as they were fast and had good resists so if they got to you it wasn't pretty.

So many great monster ideas in D1... Beastmen running away to heal if they got low (and kiting you if they were ranged), doggos that turn to pools of acid (it hurt a lot) when they die etc.


The sorcerors in floor 16 were immune to all spells. I think Warrior with stone curse was the best against them. Sorceror has more mana to cast stone curse but would need more whacks to kill those.

Warrior and rogue really had to take advantage of terrain. Gotta zigzag walk with the warrior to avoid succubi projectiles while walking them into a corner (or against doodads) one by one. When you open a door with a warrior, you stay there since only one mob face you at a time. Rogue had to kite mobs all over the entire floor. Mobs with tons of hp like overlords were tough.

Those overlords were also our introduction to Inarius. From what I remember, he got captured by Mephisto and his follower angels were turned into those demons.
ProMeTheus112
Profile Joined December 2009
France2027 Posts
March 29 2023 19:58 GMT
#1153
Diablo 1 is quite amazing story/music/atmosphere, very good gameplay and has difficulty, I particularly loved how it actually ends badly and you pretty much seem to have fallen into Diablo's trap haha.
Titusmaster6
Profile Blog Joined September 2007
United States5937 Posts
March 30 2023 14:07 GMT
#1154
On March 30 2023 04:58 ProMeTheus112 wrote:
Diablo 1 is quite amazing story/music/atmosphere, very good gameplay and has difficulty, I particularly loved how it actually ends badly and you pretty much seem to have fallen into Diablo's trap haha.

Ya lol you just brought back memories of my 14 year old self finishing the game, watching the end cinematic, and thought...ok is there a chapter 2? Lol I couldnt believe thats how it ended!
Shorts down shorts up, BOOM, just like that.
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
March 30 2023 20:45 GMT
#1155
Wait... so items cannot be traded, but gold can? Add to the scaling respec cost this is going to be a RMT bots wet dream.

"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
EchelonTee
Profile Joined February 2011
United States5244 Posts
March 30 2023 21:11 GMT
#1156
This was a list I saw floating around:

Diablo 4 Tradeable Items/Currency
Common, Magic items
Rare items
Elixirs
Gems
Gold

Items & Currencies Not Tradeable in Diablo 4
Legendary items
Unique items
Any Enchanted items
Quest items
Any currency except for gold

I guess this means crafting mats are untradable? Still, gold is a big one. And having perfect rares sellable will matter too
aka "neophyte". learn lots. dont judge. laugh for no reason. be nice. seek happiness. -D[9]
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
Last Edited: 2023-03-30 21:37:14
March 30 2023 21:35 GMT
#1157
Bizarre. Because if they are going to introduce more crafting, you know it I know it, then what? Introduce crafting type jobs in order to make special attribute weapons, gear etc? They will have to introduce some type of AH. I can't see Blizz giving that all to one type of NPC.
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
March 31 2023 01:47 GMT
#1158
Some stats from the beta.

"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
Archeon
Profile Joined May 2011
3253 Posts
Last Edited: 2023-03-31 02:38:07
March 31 2023 02:36 GMT
#1159
On March 29 2023 09:56 KrillinFromwales wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 29 2023 07:30 Archeon wrote:
On March 29 2023 04:06 KrillinFromwales wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +
Rather disappointed that I cannot stay shapeshifted to either a werebear or werewolf! The skills are lackluster for the quantity involved and I daresay I preferred the Rune system of Diablo 3 to the spec system of D4! I am sorry to all the people who really disliked Diablo 3!

A lot of time seems to have been invested in creating rather similar dungeons and cellars across Sanctuary. I think this is OK but not great. The filler content feels somewhat MMO-like in its mundane presentation. I tend to agree with the previous posters about a rather bleak atmosphere in the Fragmented Peaks and that the skill system could use a considerable expansion. It is not very aesthetically pleasing!

The cooldowns are too long on many skills! Again, I hate to say this but I think Diablo 3's system was somewhat superior in that I could at least use many of my skills frequently. I like to roar as a Druid but cannot roar very often! I did not like the legendaries! There are too many class-specific properties of legendaries at this point and it just reinforces my disappointment in the skill tree!

Overall I am worried about the game! I did not like the Adria dynamic with Leah in Diablo 3, and I did not like the beta content. What could possibly by so seductive about traveling with Lilith? Of course it's a very narrow premise and then to your disappointment it ends exactly as you would expect! The story was very disappointing! I was disappointed Rathma was dead!

I think people want to be very excited for Diablo 4 as Blizzard has not released something catering to its traditional fanbase in some time. But I think the game is focusing on creating content and is too mechanistic in its approach! There is a lot of stuff but it is not compelling! I think of Diablo 1 as the benchmark for the franchise, and Diablo 1 was compelling because the quests were varied and interesting. There seemed to be a point to completing them and then you were rewarded with a unique item! But in this game the quests are very similar, and there are only so many instances where I rescue someone's son or daughter or wife or whatever before I just don't care about the NPCs. Can't they ever do anything compelling themselves? There are so many stupid minor problems in Sanctuary of various possessions and disappearances and so on. Well that's just how it is! The developers need to show some priorities and make the hero a little more compelling!

In the previous Diablo games you were not burdened by a bunch of mishaps like cats stuck in trees or dogs with their tongues frozen to fire hydrants. If there are really going to be 500 side quests, then I think the game will be really disappointing. I would have preferred a more expansive storyline and not so much busywork. Personally I did not care for the MMO-elements. I did not like upgrading my potions! What point could this possibly serve?

Ugh. Well I am somewhat sorry this rant is headed this way. Overall I find the larger world interesting. I like the big towns and a few of the wild quests (coming upon some event). I think the stronghold system is kind of cool--that you're transforming the world as you go. Hopefully this will serve a compelling purpose and not just yield entrance to a single dungeon. I miss my companion from Diablo 2 & 3. I found the companion to be the most interesting part of certain games & I think if executed correctly that companion adds a lot! I certainly hope we get a companion in the final release!

Once upon a time I think Diablo 1 had the perfect qualities of brevity and darkness. I do not think I will appreciate the darkness in this game if it is built upon thin premises. I do not want to trail stupid NPCs who align themselves with Lords of Hell. If the Lords of Hell are to be worth their salt then mortal people should be staying well away from them. Lilith shouldn't require any assistance in simply traversing the world. I was similarly disappointed with Rathma! The first Necromancer and so on. So far his mention has added nothing!

I do not at all like having to rely upon people like Neyrelle. Constantly aiding and searching for Neyrelle is stupid. A lot of these defenseless mortals should simply die walking around with the hero. They don't have any training or means of defending themselves and it's not plausible for them to survive the journey. Why do I need her to open doors or read books or anything whatsoever. Personally I am not going to evaluate the beta story any better than the Diablo 3 story (which was not all that great).

As for content I think the game needs to be much more focused and that if some of the manhours were invested in working on an innovative continuation it would be much better. What I mean is that Rifts and Greater Rifts were aiming to address something (and they didn't do it all that well). On the other hand, the intention is to acknowledge a direction for the game. If the manhours from cellars and various dungeons were invested in some new innovative approach to continuation that would be wonderful. Why can't there be multiple "purposes" to an act? Perhaps a pronged approach would be best wherein the hero could advance some more intriguing plots (like Duran in Starcraft). Again, I really don't see the point of adding countless dungeons just to quiet the voices that some NPC hears at night or collect Druid Sap for some shaman. These quests belong in an MMO but not in Diablo! There should be more significant plot points!

The game is pretty dreary as someone pointed out previously. I hope there is a more colorful presentation to some of the later acts. I don't have a perfect eye for art although I am something of an artist. Nevertheless, I find the slue of reds and greys to blend together all too much. To be honest, I do not find many of the enemies visually appealing. They are either red grey black or tan and do not have significant features. Many times I find them to be monotonous and almost homogeous until the red attack outline appears upon them!

While the quality of the graphics is not bad I just do not like the artwork!

Well, I have ranted a lot, but I was expecting a lot from this game! In summary, I hope the lords of hell will be more compelling in future acts, and that they won't randomly enlist people to no real point and purpose. If there were some grand scheme of corruption then that would be excellent--something somewhat political and focused. Furthermore, I hope the references to religious subject matter will be less overbearing! I do not really like this aspect of Diablo 4! The hero isn't supposed to see or hear struggles of free will versus demonic corruption! There needs to be the subtle undertone of blatant obviousness! It should be granted that Sanctuary is facing real virtually, omnipotent demons and no amount of Earth-bound orthodox religion will be of any use. Overall, I really did not like this plot arc either! The Reverend Mother Prava and so on. With a zillion, real demons roaming the wide world (apparently everywhere and taking over every town in sight) there is no way anyone would pay the slightest heed to her.

Well, I guess I am just in for disappointment! Although I watched many reviews (some positive and some negative) I guess my own take is profoundly negative! I hope the hero will be more heroic as the game progresses and will not have so many crutches for exploring Sanctuary. I hope the lords of hell will be more compelling as the game progresses and will actually have some discernible plot toward malevolence. I hope no more trivial events will inspire such focus (as it is obviously the purpose of the demons to cause mischief). I hope the skill tree shows more promise, and that some universal skills are added. I hope there is more purpose to the open world than has been presented thus far! In short I am not very optimistic, but thanks for listening to my rambling!


I disagree with some of the criticism of the story tbh. Neyrelle is a pupil of something like a mixture of Horadrim and graverobber, which in this world where every grave is filled with undead means she's probably a hundred times more qualified than the hero. I also think it's quite early in the story, we aren't talking about her running along to fight the prime evil but mostly a bunch of fallen and their like, enemies a decently skilled warrior like the sisterhood could easily dispatch in D2 f.e. too. Her mother got corrupted by the major antagonist easily enough.

I also don't agree on the religion part. Inarius, the core of the religion, is very real to the point where it's followers can literally visit him (even if he's a dick) and some of the prayers are shown to grant protection and drive out demons in the story. I also don't think the demons are as omnipresent and omnipotent as you make them out to be, I think their presence is growing with Lilith's return and before that they were more of a rare encounter. The exorcist questline has the preacher very shocked to find someone so possessed that the demon could resist her prayer (which is shown to work on a weaker demon before). To boot most of the demons in the game come from human sin, so following a church that tries to teach a way to stay away from that makes perfect sense, because only a religious society is a safe society in this context. And generally there's a tendency that the more dreadful the situation the more religious people become IRL.

Overall I was very positively surprised by the story because to me it felt palpable and think that if demons existed we'd see them succeed in the way portrayed, by feeding on human weaknesses. Considering that in D3 and throughout most of D2 demons and humans were mostly separated into the tide of hell vs the poor victims I think this is a very good change that gives the universe a lot of depth.

I agree on the MMO aspects though, I like the larger world, but I hate all the 'gather this shit' 'upgrade your potions' 'use an emote' elements and especially the emote part felt jarring to me. I thought most of the quests were a good way to show how people fell to corruption which is Lilith's theme so far, but maybe I just got the good ones, there's a lot of them. I'm also not sure the level scaling works out the way it is right now, as a melee Rogue I felt like 95% of the fights were too easy and 5% of the fights were very very hard and considering that the world all is on the same level this may become a problem with less excessive unique drops.


Ultimately, I hope you're right. I wasn't really taken by Inarius and the dynamic between Neyrelle and her mother but I guess that's alright, since it's the beginning of the game. It's a narrative but I guess it's just not for me. I suppose I just don't like people "hangin' out." Cain was a pro, obviously, but a lot of the characters just strike me as not being in the right place. Someone compared Leah to a Disney princess (who sort of randomly transforms into Diablo), and that made me laugh. I just want the hero to execute everything himself. Open the doors, read the books, kill the demons, decipher the runes, whatever it is.

I don't have much nice to say so... hehe. Hopefully Inarius will evolve into an interesting angel actually getting some work done. I'd like to see the angels take an active part in the combat. I liked Tyrael in Diablo 2, for instance. I guess we'll see how things unfold. Maybe with the big world there will be a place for a truly malevolent plot. So far, since their introduction, the angels have felt pretty thin. I wouldn't mind seeing more activity between the populace of Sanctuary and the Prime Evils. A lot of Diablo has always been left to imagination but with the open world there are a lot of gaps to fill. Hopefully D4 lives up to expectation.

Perfectly fair. I didn't like Leah as well, imo she was too naive for a world that's so obviously really difficult to survive in. I get that she's there to get stuff explained to her for the player as well as to portray how helpless she is in the face of evil in the same way Marius was, but Marius was fucking terrified most of the time and Leah wasn't, which imo felt unbelievable. Her being turned into Diablo was probably the only plot point I liked in d3.

So far I think most of the D4 chars are there to grant exposition. I get people though that want to look for exposition in the world instead of it getting shoved in their face, it's one of the aspects I enjoyed about Metroid Prime f.e. and it definitely worked for D2. I doubt the story will end up being as character driven as D3 though, I expect it more to mimic D2 in that you chase the prime evil a bunch while characters introduce the world.

Tbh I doubt Inarius is going to play an active role, I think his whole thing is to portray that while the demons utilize mortals, the angels only care about their greater conflict, so both kinda suck for the humans, angels just less so. Overall I'm expecting him to mirror Imperius, aka fight Lilith and loose to hype up Lilith tbh and else be a passive aggressive asshat.
low gravity, yes-yes!
emperorchampion
Profile Blog Joined December 2008
Canada9496 Posts
March 31 2023 04:47 GMT
#1160
As a necro I was hoping to join Lilith, seemed more lore aligned given all the blood spells and such, screw the angles and humans
TRUEESPORTS || your days as a respected member of team liquid are over
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