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On May 18 2019 12:03 Rebs wrote:Show nested quote +On May 18 2019 09:49 Emnjay808 wrote:
Ah I miss the days when I would raid in MC: lightning bolt 7 times, go oom, then play with CT raid frames while keeping totems up the rest of the fight.
Not but really. PvP was fun af. I grinded to Champion (rank 10), mostly AB (I LOVED AB) and world pvp. At the time I had a gf, part-time job and was a full-time student. I wonder now if I have what it takes to grind HWL (single, full-time job, no life) xD We ground HWL on a Feral and we had 3 people in 2 timezones running it non stop in premades. It was rank 3 EU at one point when they used to have that PVP leaderboard.
I grinded to Field Madshal on my Mage, when it was based purely on the amount of time you could spend, but even back then, shortly after I finished people started agreeing on certain thresholds so guys wouldn't kill themselves having to play 24/7. We've now come to know these as honor "brackets".
I suspect it will exist in official Classic as well if the community is organised enough.
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United Kingdom20345 Posts
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This feels like such a meaningless thing to investigate lol..
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Pandemona
Charlie Sheens House51493 Posts
Well i think people got annoyed cuz streamers like Sodapoppin for example are spouting off that "wow these mobs are hitting harder than they are on private servers" or following it up an hour later with "wow the scaling of damage is defo wrong, but im sure blizzard will fix it, these mobs didnt hit this hard back in the day" etc so im guessing someone did some proper testing xD
Meaningless debate i agree, but just annoying with the vanilla elitists spout shit like Soda did xD
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United Kingdom20345 Posts
On May 19 2019 08:28 Rebs wrote:This feels like such a meaningless thing to investigate lol..
I don't understand how you could not only not care about it but assume that others don't either. It's a pretty big deal if a range of mobs from starting zone dudes to level 40 elites hit for less than half of what they used to with no explanation.
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Well i think people got annoyed cuz streamers like Sodapoppin for example are spouting off that "wow these mobs are hitting harder than they are on private servers"
Actually the opposite, some examples in the thread are from popular streamers roflstomping early level dungeons with pulls that shouldn't have been viable. People went back and found videos of that content being done in actual vanilla to see bosses consistently doing twice as much damage etc.
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Pandemona
Charlie Sheens House51493 Posts
Oh i just coming from the Soda stream thought might been linked, thats fair enough then.
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On May 19 2019 09:18 Cyro wrote:Show nested quote +On May 19 2019 08:28 Rebs wrote:This feels like such a meaningless thing to investigate lol.. I don't understand how you could not only not care about it but assume that others don't either. It's a pretty big deal if a range of mobs from starting zone dudes to level 40 elites hit for less than half of what they used to with no explanation.
Its actually a pretty straightforward concept. I dont care because frankly I dont mind if the game speeds a up a bit at a certain level involving certain mobs I couldnt give a fuck. People back then didnt, and since this all about recreating the "classic" experience I can promise you no one was going around theorycrafting the damage taken from mobs at a certain level and that too in a beta at level 6 or 7 or whatever .
At some point you have to let some things go and just enjoy the game. If thats to hard for you and this sort of hypercritical analysis is what floats your boat. Then yeah man, you and all those who have enough time on their hands to do this sort of investigation keep at it. Good for you. Meanwhile the rest of the world will just enjoy the game.
Im pretty sure im going to use this as something to dabble for a few minutes here and there or maybe if I have a free day with nothing planned. And if stuff hits for half. Fine by me.
Heck if it means I have to spend less time eating between mobs is probably enough of QOL improvement that doesnt impinge to much on the gameplay for me to let it go.
I tried watching some of those streamers several times today and each time within 2 minutes I was yawning out.
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On May 19 2019 09:18 Cyro wrote:Show nested quote +On May 19 2019 08:28 Rebs wrote:This feels like such a meaningless thing to investigate lol.. I don't understand how you could not only not care about it but assume that others don't either. It's a pretty big deal if a range of mobs from starting zone dudes to level 40 elites hit for less than half of what they used to with no explanation. --- Show nested quote +Well i think people got annoyed cuz streamers like Sodapoppin for example are spouting off that "wow these mobs are hitting harder than they are on private servers" Actually the opposite, some examples in the thread are from popular streamers roflstomping early level dungeons with pulls that shouldn't have been viable. People went back and found videos of that content being done in actual vanilla to see bosses consistently doing twice as much damage etc.
The thing I always bring up is that we know way more about the game now than we did in vanilla. People make better gear choices, talent choices, use of resources, etc.
Damage did not seem out there for us, and pulling big was a problem in the 2 dungeons I did today.
Everyone is going to nitpick something, but a lot of the 'high profile' streamers about classic played on private servers and are taking a lot of their analysis from that, which clearly isn't exact compared to what vanilla was (see some streamers had no idea that a bunch of graveyards did not exist in early vanilla that exist in private servers).
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United Kingdom20345 Posts
On May 19 2019 10:57 Alventenie wrote:Show nested quote +On May 19 2019 09:18 Cyro wrote:On May 19 2019 08:28 Rebs wrote:This feels like such a meaningless thing to investigate lol.. I don't understand how you could not only not care about it but assume that others don't either. It's a pretty big deal if a range of mobs from starting zone dudes to level 40 elites hit for less than half of what they used to with no explanation. --- Well i think people got annoyed cuz streamers like Sodapoppin for example are spouting off that "wow these mobs are hitting harder than they are on private servers" Actually the opposite, some examples in the thread are from popular streamers roflstomping early level dungeons with pulls that shouldn't have been viable. People went back and found videos of that content being done in actual vanilla to see bosses consistently doing twice as much damage etc. The thing I always bring up is that we know way more about the game now than we did in vanilla. People make better gear choices, talent choices, use of resources, etc. Everyone is going to nitpick something, but a lot of the 'high profile' streamers about classic played on private servers and are taking a lot of their analysis from that, which clearly isn't exact compared to what vanilla was (see some streamers had no idea that a bunch of graveyards did not exist in early vanilla that exist in private servers).
Which is exactly why it's so important that we're citing hard evidence from actual vanilla which show the same enemies hitting twice as hard against similar targets.
Did you look at the data? One of the biggest examples: Something must be wrong for a level 7 tiger on the echo isles to hit this level 8 troll hunter for 1-3 damage instead of the 5-8 that was recorded in a speedrun on the actual classic servers and on several other pre-cataclysm videos. That's a threefold difference in average damage.
A difference in gear doesn't explain it, talents don't even exist yet, there's no smarter way to stand there and autoattack a mob so there is clearly some missing factor that needs an explanation. There's even an official beast guide from back in the day that lists the unmitigated damage range as 6-9.
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I am on classic playing right now, and have no issue with how the damage has been so far.
In westfall boars still charge hit me for 60-70 damage when they were equal level.
Defias mobs hit for 25-35 per melee, casters hit for 70.
In VC tank gets hit for ~10-15% of his life per elite hit.
In redridge mobs 4-5 levels higher are doing 80-100 damage per hit (critting for ~150-180). I only have 600 life, I dont see the issue. These damage issues will get sorted out as blizzard gets all the data from the server vs what they should have expected.
I don't get the nit picky 'THIS ONE MOB IS WRONG BLIZZARD IS TERRIBLE' you are going on about. Some level 7 mob has the wrong damage value for some reason, the whole vanilla people go berserk. The entire reason for this beta is to fix this stuff and you're sitting here making it seem like its the end of the world that some level 7 mob hit you for a wrong damage value.
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I love how vastly superior this is to BFA. Watching people playing Classic has made it really obvious all the ways "modern wow" went wrong. This is all just so fascinating. I have absolutely zero intention of continuing to play BFA once classic is released.
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United Kingdom20345 Posts
I don't get the nit picky 'THIS ONE MOB IS WRONG BLIZZARD IS TERRIBLE' you are going on about.
That's not what i said.
I brought up the issue that was being discussed on forums and similar places outside of TL; some people dismissed it without seeming to understand or look into it at all. I backed it up some more because there is enough data to make it clear that something is screwy and it's interesting as to what it is and why.
It's a beta, we're here to talk about quirks in the game that aren't working quite properly. Why spin a casual observation/discussion into an "OMG THE SKY IS FALLING" criticism of the game? If you don't care about the game why are you here replying to the posts of people that are discussing it just to tell them that? It's not adding anything at all to the conversation and it's taking things away with inflammation for no good reason.
Really confusing last page of posts here.
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On May 21 2019 05:08 Cyro wrote:Show nested quote +I don't get the nit picky 'THIS ONE MOB IS WRONG BLIZZARD IS TERRIBLE' you are going on about.
That's not what i said.I brought up the issue that was being discussed on forums and similar places outside of TL; some people dismissed it without seeming to understand or look into it at all. I backed it up some more because there is enough data to make it clear that something is screwy and it's interesting as to what it is and why. It's a beta, we're here to talk about quirks in the game that aren't working quite properly. Why spin a casual observation/discussion into an "OMG THE SKY IS FALLING" criticism of the game? If you don't care about the game why are you here replying to the posts of people that are discussing it just to tell them that? It's not adding anything at all to the conversation and it's taking things away with inflammation for no good reason. Really confusing last page of posts here.
No you said this.. which is close enough..
On May 19 2019 05:52 Cyro wrote:
I don't understand how you could not only not care about it but assume that others don't either. It's a pretty big deal if a range of mobs from starting zone dudes to level 40 elites hit for less than half of what they used to with no explanation.
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And none of us said we didnt care about the game either, granted I dont care alot, but thats not the same as not caring. I said I dont care about this particular issue and if anything I dont even mind it.
The other point being that the bugs you found if bugs at all, are hardly a big deal worthy of a discussion Your evidence is a few you tube videos of streamers operating with 1 mob type a ta low level with a before and after of damage values. Its not interesting. its just a report and move on type of find.
Your first and subsequent post on the subject made it sound like there are some game breaking ramifications that merit some discussion, which in my opinion it isnt. Let agree we are here to talk about the quirks in the game, whatever that means.
I offered to humor you by suggesting that it didnt merit a discussion and my opinion on it. Almost veryone else on this board so far has decided to ignore it. I acknowledge my mistake. So will I.
A person actively playing the beta has reported to you that his experience differs from the implications you are raising. But he can speak for his position himself. Id rather not say.
And so you are deciding to get butthurt when no one agrees that its a big deal except your buddies on whatever internet board that discussion is on and that the ones who did offer a response dont give a shit.
There is nothing confusing here. Everything is crystal clear to me. This is the last I am willing to offer this subject, I am not interested in your issues. Thank you.
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On May 21 2019 05:08 Cyro wrote:Show nested quote +I don't get the nit picky 'THIS ONE MOB IS WRONG BLIZZARD IS TERRIBLE' you are going on about. That's not what i said. I brought up the issue that was being discussed on forums and similar places outside of TL; some people dismissed it without seeming to understand or look into it at all. I backed it up some more because there is enough data to make it clear that something is screwy and it's interesting as to what it is and why. It's a beta, we're here to talk about quirks in the game that aren't working quite properly. Why spin a casual observation/discussion into an "OMG THE SKY IS FALLING" criticism of the game? If you don't care about the game why are you here replying to the posts of people that are discussing it just to tell them that? It's not adding anything at all to the conversation and it's taking things away with inflammation for no good reason. Really confusing last page of posts here.
The issue you raised is one that the players themselves don't specifically need to address. Blizzard will get a large amount of raw data that we couldn't possibly give them individually just by playing on the beta and leveling. They will have combat data from tens of thousands of people regarding damage values and combat times. They will be able to find these anomalies better than any of us will ever be able to. Us making discussion regarding some specific mob that maybe at most 10-15% of the entire classic population will ever encounter is not worth our time.
If it becomes a more regular thing as we level and see more things like this, then it may be a thing to regard to blizzard. But it is something blizzard is very likely aware of and already had planned to look at (damage values in beta vs expected damage values).
By in large the beta has been good so far, its just as tedious as it was in vanilla. Nearly all the damage values I have run into felt in line with what I should expect. And with more experience regarding wow compared to the first time I played vanilla it has been easier than the first time.
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On May 19 2019 08:28 Rebs wrote:This feels like such a meaningless thing to investigate lol..
Completely disagree, even if leveling in WOW was somehow easy for that age since it was soloable, that mobs were dangerous lead to give a greater sense of being in a dangerous place, especially in pvp realms.
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On May 22 2019 05:55 Godwrath wrote:Show nested quote +On May 19 2019 08:28 Rebs wrote:This feels like such a meaningless thing to investigate lol.. Completely disagree, even if leveling in WOW was somehow easy for that age since it was soloable, that mobs were dangerous lead to give a greater sense of being in a dangerous place, especially in pvp realms.
No, players got better over the years. Blizzard already posted showing elites doing equal damage now as they did before. People still don't believe them.
Vanilla was never 'hard' outside of the fact that so many people did not know how to play. There is very little in danger in the world if you know what to expect and how to play around it.
Its actually been shown that private servers actually have made some of their fights harder because the original information they had they though was too easy (increasing armor/damage for bosses).
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On May 22 2019 10:01 Alventenie wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2019 05:55 Godwrath wrote:On May 19 2019 08:28 Rebs wrote:This feels like such a meaningless thing to investigate lol.. Completely disagree, even if leveling in WOW was somehow easy for that age since it was soloable, that mobs were dangerous lead to give a greater sense of being in a dangerous place, especially in pvp realms. No, players got better over the years. Blizzard already posted showing elites doing equal damage now as they did before. People still don't believe them. Vanilla was never 'hard' outside of the fact that so many people did not know how to play. There is very little in danger in the world if you know what to expect and how to play around it. Its actually been shown that private servers actually have made some of their fights harder because the original information they had they though was too easy (increasing armor/damage for bosses).
Players getting better has nothing to do with the world being easier or not (silly argument to be honest, it is one that is repeated ad nauseum like MMOs didn't exist before WoW, maybe you were a noob back then, not everyone was).
I didn't say vanilla was ever hard, or if that was a point of contention, but if your character can't deal with 2-3 mobs at the same time efficiently is not about "skill", just about raw numbers.
The danger comes from other players being able to kill you easily if you are engaged. The danger comes from having to rest often. The danger comes from pulling more than what you can deal with. And that relies on how much damage can the mobs dish out and sustain entirely, which was what Rebs was saying "was not worth it to investigate or even better if it was faster". Whatever else you are answering to, is a product of your imagination.
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On May 22 2019 15:57 Godwrath wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2019 10:01 Alventenie wrote:On May 22 2019 05:55 Godwrath wrote:On May 19 2019 08:28 Rebs wrote:This feels like such a meaningless thing to investigate lol.. Completely disagree, even if leveling in WOW was somehow easy for that age since it was soloable, that mobs were dangerous lead to give a greater sense of being in a dangerous place, especially in pvp realms. No, players got better over the years. Blizzard already posted showing elites doing equal damage now as they did before. People still don't believe them. Vanilla was never 'hard' outside of the fact that so many people did not know how to play. There is very little in danger in the world if you know what to expect and how to play around it. Its actually been shown that private servers actually have made some of their fights harder because the original information they had they though was too easy (increasing armor/damage for bosses). Players getting better has nothing to do with the world being easier or not (silly argument to be honest, it is one that is repeated ad nauseum like MMOs didn't exist before WoW, maybe you were a noob back then, not everyone was). I didn't say vanilla was ever hard, or if that was a point of contention, but if your character can't deal with 2-3 mobs at the same time efficiently is not about "skill", just about raw numbers. The danger comes from other players being able to kill you easily if you are engaged. The danger comes from having to rest often. The danger comes from pulling more than what you can deal with. And that relies on how much damage can the mobs dish out and sustain entirely, which was what Rebs was saying "was not worth it to investigate or even better if it was faster". Whatever else you are answering to, is a product of your imagination.
Actually if you are saying that a character is unable to deal with 2-3 mobs and able to deal with 1.
That automatically makes things more difficult no ? What would you call a situation where handling t one mob and harder against 2-3 is a more "threatening" (whatever the reason might be, in your case "damage") . I would call that an increase in difficulty. What would you call it ? Yeah ...
So his assumption that you are making the claim that the game was harder is fair. So I would stop with the act of trying to be clever with semantics. You know what you meant and when he called it out you left yourself a convenient dodge.
And my point of contention had nothing to do with the danger in the world and whether it mattered or not. That is an extension you created all on your own because you also seem to be worried that cats on an island had a lower damage value. When none of the other evidence suggests there is a consistent problem with damage values.
My contention is that it is a completely isolated case and suggesting based on the evidence that this was a wide spread phenomenon was a meaningless exercise. It is not a player problem to solve. The post is literally "a tiger on an island is doing the wrong damage, we must scour the world to check for incorrect damage values based on this."
And unlike you, I actually read the thread fully and concluded it was not worth the exercise.
Can you in good faith say that you read the thread he linked properly before disagreeing with me ? Yeah. Think about that.
And if people want to investigate, go ahead. I didnt once say that people arent free to exercise their god given right to pursue what to me "felt" like a meaningless activity.
The bottom line is its a report and move on observation not a "we must investigate, blizzard might be cheating us investigation."
The better if faster was simply my personal opinion. Try pulling more aggressively with halved damage values in Vanilla. I can assure you the dangers you are alluding to would be ever present. You and your pro ass would be in just as much danger from the "world".
But the fact is that you are being a bit if an elitist turd if you think that it was just raw numbers that made the world more difficult back then. I promise you I can breeze through Vanilla content now without a single one of the hiccups that I had to face back then.Simply because I know and remember enough to optimize my gameplay around the numbers that doexist.
All it really does is make it slower. I understand the numbers enough to know when to disengage if I make a mistake, I understand what content is better served in groups and how to find them, what order to follow it. We know and understand all of the numbers pretty well now so playing around them is simply a matter of speed. Not difficulty. The danger from the world is about as high as trying to do a WQ with warmode on in BFA. Its just that NPC's form a smaller part of that particular conversation.
And granted there will be plenty of them this time around aswell. But with all the content sharing going on I doubt it will be that much of a thing as it was.
And its rather elitist to suggest that most people back then werent noobs or at the very least knew where things were, how to handle them and how to get around the world.
So not only is it a bullshit argument it is the sort of elitist statement+ Show Spoiler + (that you have no real grounds for making given we have no evidence of what skills or knowledge you possesed back then
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Opinion: Blizzard should be legally liable for the emotional pain I feel needing to wait 3 months for classic. It isn't humane and they have the ability to just release it now. Millions of people are suffering.
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EPT
