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United Kingdom20326 Posts
It's ridiculous to imply that blizzard is cheating us because of damage bugs in a beta. It's a beta! The release is like 3 months out and it will more than likely be diagnosed and fixed long before then.. possible causes are stuff like the shaman totem buffs getting stuck on players invisibly. It's nothing to be upset or angry about.
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Pandemona
Charlie Sheens House51493 Posts
Oh shit i got beta access nice, downloading now. Guess a lot more ppl are getting in now?
Oh wait its stress test that everyone got xd
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On May 23 2019 03:09 Pandemona wrote:
Oh shit i got beta access nice, downloading now. Guess a lot more ppl are getting in now?
Stress test later tonight so I think a massive wave of people got the stress test part of it. Its from 4-6pm PDT and everyone can level up to 5. Its to test their layering system (or see how much they need) to make the launch of classic not completely insane.
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On May 22 2019 21:04 Rebs wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2019 15:57 Godwrath wrote:On May 22 2019 10:01 Alventenie wrote:On May 22 2019 05:55 Godwrath wrote:On May 19 2019 08:28 Rebs wrote:This feels like such a meaningless thing to investigate lol.. Completely disagree, even if leveling in WOW was somehow easy for that age since it was soloable, that mobs were dangerous lead to give a greater sense of being in a dangerous place, especially in pvp realms. No, players got better over the years. Blizzard already posted showing elites doing equal damage now as they did before. People still don't believe them. Vanilla was never 'hard' outside of the fact that so many people did not know how to play. There is very little in danger in the world if you know what to expect and how to play around it. Its actually been shown that private servers actually have made some of their fights harder because the original information they had they though was too easy (increasing armor/damage for bosses). Players getting better has nothing to do with the world being easier or not (silly argument to be honest, it is one that is repeated ad nauseum like MMOs didn't exist before WoW, maybe you were a noob back then, not everyone was). I didn't say vanilla was ever hard, or if that was a point of contention, but if your character can't deal with 2-3 mobs at the same time efficiently is not about "skill", just about raw numbers. The danger comes from other players being able to kill you easily if you are engaged. The danger comes from having to rest often. The danger comes from pulling more than what you can deal with. And that relies on how much damage can the mobs dish out and sustain entirely, which was what Rebs was saying "was not worth it to investigate or even better if it was faster". Whatever else you are answering to, is a product of your imagination. Actually if you are saying that a character is unable to deal with 2-3 mobs and able to deal with 1. That automatically makes things more difficult no ? What would you call a situation where handling t one mob and harder against 2-3 is a more "threatening" (whatever the reason might be, in your case "damage") . I would call that an increase in difficulty. What would you call it ? Yeah ... So his assumption that you are making the claim that the game was harder is fair. So I would stop with the act of trying to be clever with semantics. You know what you meant and when he called it out you left yourself a convenient dodge. And my point of contention had nothing to do with the danger in the world and whether it mattered or not. That is an extension you created all on your own because you also seem to be worried that cats on an island had a lower damage value. When none of the other evidence suggests there is a consistent problem with damage values. My contention is that it is a completely isolated case and suggesting based on the evidence that this was a wide spread phenomenon was a meaningless exercise. It is not a player problem to solve. The post is literally "a tiger on an island is doing the wrong damage, we must scour the world to check for incorrect damage values based on this." And unlike you, I actually read the thread fully and concluded it was not worth the exercise. Can you in good faith say that you read the thread he linked properly before disagreeing with me ? Yeah. Think about that. And if people want to investigate, go ahead. I didnt once say that people arent free to exercise their god given right to pursue what to me "felt" like a meaningless activity. The bottom line is its a report and move on observation not a "we must investigate, blizzard might be cheating us investigation." The better if faster was simply my personal opinion. Try pulling more aggressively with halved damage values in Vanilla. I can assure you the dangers you are alluding to would be ever present. You and your pro ass would be in just as much danger from the "world". But the fact is that you are being a bit if an elitist turd if you think that it was just raw numbers that made the world more difficult back then. I promise you I can breeze through Vanilla content now without a single one of the hiccups that I had to face back then.Simply because I know and remember enough to optimize my gameplay around the numbers that doexist. All it really does is make it slower. I understand the numbers enough to know when to disengage if I make a mistake, I understand what content is better served in groups and how to find them, what order to follow it. We know and understand all of the numbers pretty well now so playing around them is simply a matter of speed. Not difficulty. The danger from the world is about as high as trying to do a WQ with warmode on in BFA. Its just that NPC's form a smaller part of that particular conversation. And granted there will be plenty of them this time around aswell. But with all the content sharing going on I doubt it will be that much of a thing as it was. And its rather elitist to suggest that most people back then werent noobs or at the very least knew where things were, how to handle them and how to get around the world. So not only is it a bullshit argument it is the sort of elitist statement + Show Spoiler + (that you have no real grounds for making given we have no evidence of what skills or knowledge you possesed back then ) that firmly belongs back up your ass which is where it appears it came from.
You are reading shit into what i wrote that i did not. It's simple, you are trying to paint me as some hardcore vanilla defender that attempts to get the classic edition with a purity seal. Let me dispel that for you, i am not. At this point i don't really care how the game ends up.
Where did i say that not being able to farm efficiently 2-3 mobs at the same time (which some classes could) was making the game hard? No, i said DANGEROUS, because you are more exposed for a longer time to be ganked, get adds (remember those filthy gnolls running away and bringing more dudes over and over? i member). And i already explained why. You are trying to focus this on hard or whatever, WOW was never hard, but the world felt way better back then for reasons you choose to ignore, the time consuming aspect of grinding/leveling is fundamental to the open world experience.
What i answered to (and i already explained it to you) was that such a quality of life change like making the mobs deal less damage can change how the game feels specially in pvp servers (and i already said that i don't know if what Cyro posted is true, but that's irrelevant to the point i am argueing against, which finds it irrelevant).
It's not elitist to call or suggest that some people weren't MMO noobs, because some of us weren't. It's factual. I am pretty sure you are aware that some of us had played games like SWG, Camelot, Everquest, Ultima and more for years before even stepping a single foot into Azeroth's online version, and in many ways WoW streamlined and simplified how MMO worked back then (in many ways for the better imo). We already knew how to kite, how to purge effects, make our builds, how to search for efficient farming routes, etc. WoW didn't invent anything new in that regard, it just polished the turd to make it more appealing to a wider spectrum of players. That's why when people make the argument about how "the game wasn't even hard back then", "players are better now" are irrelevant, because they are argueing against a strawman. Nobody thinks the game was harder mechanically speaking. And if they do, they are too dumb to deserve your time.
What vanilla had over current wow iteration is how the world felt. And while some people believe it's because of the pink colored glasses, the reality is that the game had changed so much over the years that you could not possibly make a convincing argument either way.
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Pandemona
Charlie Sheens House51493 Posts
On May 23 2019 03:20 Alventenie wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2019 03:09 Pandemona wrote:
Oh shit i got beta access nice, downloading now. Guess a lot more ppl are getting in now? Stress test later tonight so I think a massive wave of people got the stress test part of it. Its from 4-6pm PDT and everyone can level up to 5. Its to test their layering system (or see how much they need) to make the launch of classic not completely insane.
Haha yeah i thought i was special 
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On May 23 2019 03:09 Pandemona wrote:
Oh shit i got beta access nice, downloading now. Guess a lot more ppl are getting in now?
Oh wait its stress test that everyone got xd
Lol I had the exact same reaction today. I'm soooo sad now.
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On May 23 2019 03:37 Godwrath wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2019 21:04 Rebs wrote:On May 22 2019 15:57 Godwrath wrote:On May 22 2019 10:01 Alventenie wrote:On May 22 2019 05:55 Godwrath wrote:On May 19 2019 08:28 Rebs wrote:This feels like such a meaningless thing to investigate lol.. Completely disagree, even if leveling in WOW was somehow easy for that age since it was soloable, that mobs were dangerous lead to give a greater sense of being in a dangerous place, especially in pvp realms. No, players got better over the years. Blizzard already posted showing elites doing equal damage now as they did before. People still don't believe them. Vanilla was never 'hard' outside of the fact that so many people did not know how to play. There is very little in danger in the world if you know what to expect and how to play around it. Its actually been shown that private servers actually have made some of their fights harder because the original information they had they though was too easy (increasing armor/damage for bosses). Players getting better has nothing to do with the world being easier or not (silly argument to be honest, it is one that is repeated ad nauseum like MMOs didn't exist before WoW, maybe you were a noob back then, not everyone was). I didn't say vanilla was ever hard, or if that was a point of contention, but if your character can't deal with 2-3 mobs at the same time efficiently is not about "skill", just about raw numbers. The danger comes from other players being able to kill you easily if you are engaged. The danger comes from having to rest often. The danger comes from pulling more than what you can deal with. And that relies on how much damage can the mobs dish out and sustain entirely, which was what Rebs was saying "was not worth it to investigate or even better if it was faster". Whatever else you are answering to, is a product of your imagination. Actually if you are saying that a character is unable to deal with 2-3 mobs and able to deal with 1. That automatically makes things more difficult no ? What would you call a situation where handling t one mob and harder against 2-3 is a more "threatening" (whatever the reason might be, in your case "damage") . I would call that an increase in difficulty. What would you call it ? Yeah ... So his assumption that you are making the claim that the game was harder is fair. So I would stop with the act of trying to be clever with semantics. You know what you meant and when he called it out you left yourself a convenient dodge. And my point of contention had nothing to do with the danger in the world and whether it mattered or not. That is an extension you created all on your own because you also seem to be worried that cats on an island had a lower damage value. When none of the other evidence suggests there is a consistent problem with damage values. My contention is that it is a completely isolated case and suggesting based on the evidence that this was a wide spread phenomenon was a meaningless exercise. It is not a player problem to solve. The post is literally "a tiger on an island is doing the wrong damage, we must scour the world to check for incorrect damage values based on this." And unlike you, I actually read the thread fully and concluded it was not worth the exercise. Can you in good faith say that you read the thread he linked properly before disagreeing with me ? Yeah. Think about that. And if people want to investigate, go ahead. I didnt once say that people arent free to exercise their god given right to pursue what to me "felt" like a meaningless activity. The bottom line is its a report and move on observation not a "we must investigate, blizzard might be cheating us investigation." The better if faster was simply my personal opinion. Try pulling more aggressively with halved damage values in Vanilla. I can assure you the dangers you are alluding to would be ever present. You and your pro ass would be in just as much danger from the "world". But the fact is that you are being a bit if an elitist turd if you think that it was just raw numbers that made the world more difficult back then. I promise you I can breeze through Vanilla content now without a single one of the hiccups that I had to face back then.Simply because I know and remember enough to optimize my gameplay around the numbers that doexist. All it really does is make it slower. I understand the numbers enough to know when to disengage if I make a mistake, I understand what content is better served in groups and how to find them, what order to follow it. We know and understand all of the numbers pretty well now so playing around them is simply a matter of speed. Not difficulty. The danger from the world is about as high as trying to do a WQ with warmode on in BFA. Its just that NPC's form a smaller part of that particular conversation. And granted there will be plenty of them this time around aswell. But with all the content sharing going on I doubt it will be that much of a thing as it was. And its rather elitist to suggest that most people back then werent noobs or at the very least knew where things were, how to handle them and how to get around the world. So not only is it a bullshit argument it is the sort of elitist statement + Show Spoiler + (that you have no real grounds for making given we have no evidence of what skills or knowledge you possesed back then ) that firmly belongs back up your ass which is where it appears it came from. You are reading shit into what i wrote that i did not. It's simple, you are trying to paint me as some hardcore vanilla defender that attempts to get the classic edition with a purity seal. Let me dispel that for you, i am not. At this point i don't really care how the game ends up. Where did i say that not being able to farm efficiently 2-3 mobs at the same time (which some classes could) was making the game hard? No, i said DANGEROUS, because you are more exposed for a longer time to be ganked, get adds (remember those filthy gnolls running away and bringing more dudes over and over? i member). And i already explained why. You are trying to focus this on hard or whatever, WOW was never hard, but the world felt way better back then for reasons you choose to ignore, the time consuming aspect of grinding/leveling is fundamental to the open world experience. What i answered to (and i already explained it to you) was that such a quality of life change like making the mobs deal less damage can change how the game feels specially in pvp servers (and i already said that i don't know if what Cyro posted is true, but that's irrelevant to the point i am argueing against, which finds it irrelevant). It's not elitist to call or suggest that some people weren't MMO noobs, because some of us weren't. It's factual. I am pretty sure you are aware that some of us had played games like SWG, Camelot, Everquest, Ultima and more for years before even stepping a single foot into Azeroth's online version, and in many ways WoW streamlined and simplified how MMO worked back then (in many ways for the better imo). We already knew how to kite, how to purge effects, make our builds, how to search for efficient farming routes, etc. WoW didn't invent anything new in that regard, it just polished the turd to make it more appealing to a wider spectrum of players. That's why when people make the argument about how "the game wasn't even hard back then", "players are better now" are irrelevant, because they are argueing against a strawman. Nobody thinks the game was harder mechanically speaking. And if they do, they are too dumb to deserve your time. What vanilla had over current wow iteration is how the world felt. And while some people believe it's because of the pink colored glasses, the reality is that the game had changed so much over the years that you could not possibly make a convincing argument either way.
I understand what you are trying to say, and my counter point is that the world isn't dangerous anymore. There is nothing dangerous out there. With 15 years of knowledge we know nearly every bit of what classic is and will be. We know every mob, we know the ins and outs of every quest, we know where everything is. Nothing is dangerous. In vanilla I was in duskwood and got killed by stitches and mor'ladim. In classic I never once pulled them because I am aware of them before hand. That is not dangerous. The danger is gone because we know all of it.
15 years ago many people did not know how to maximize their classes dps, equip themselves with the proper items, do professions in tandem to leveling, know how to pull 1 mob at a time, etc. You might have, but a vast majority of people WoW was their first MMO and were completely clueless.
There is no danger in wow except the danger you as the player make. In the past players on average were worse, thus took longer to kill mobs, making it feel more dangerous. But now most fights against mobs are shorter, lessening this time frame. You are pulling mobs to safer spots to not have this issue. You are making better use of other tangible things (items/dps/consumables/talents) to make mobs die faster. You are making better choices on what quests to do and mobs to kill to not be in this dangerous spots.
You keep saying the world should be dangerous, but the point I (and maybe Rebs I don't want to quote for him) are making is that the world is not dangerous anymore because we have all of the knowledge. There is nothing we don't know about classic and thats why it isnt dangerous. You can mention pvp servers but that isn't a 'danger' part of the game because that is just another player in the game. Its not the game against you, its a player against you.
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Uhm, I just recently played a Shaman to lvl 30 on a private server with normal experience gain and broken herbalism spawns (so constantly selfbuffing with potions wasn't really possible).
Is the game truely hard? No, for sure not.
But it is unforgiving and will kill you again and again if you don't pay attention, some quests are basically designt for you to take on more mobs than most classes can chew. You are forced to go slow and steady because else you will die from time to time.
You seem to have this weird idea that all players were horrible back then and sorry, thats just bullshit. Not everyone was 10 years old and had no clue, there were MMORPGs before, there were plenty of competetive gamers from other areas that came to WoW. Do you think all these people spontaneously decided to become bads? If you made it to lvl 30, chances are high, that you kinda knew how to solo PvE. Not pitch perfect, but we are not speedrunning here.
I now know plenty more than back then, my leveling pace most likely won't be any faster than it was for my second char anyway, why would it? I knew most quests allready and the rest is down to lucky drops or buying buffs.
The one thing that would make people really much faster, is a quest tracker and i strongly hope they make these things illegal.
You seem to be talking about people that map out their entire leveling route beforehand, including group quests and all that stuff. Well, sorry, thats not how 99% of people will play WoW and for these 99% people classic is much "harder" than anything the world in retail throws at you.
Why you even think mobs doing less damage than they have (if true), doesn't matter, i can't even really understand. I mean... It is a numbers game.
Question about early leveling:
As mentioned i played an alliance Shaman to lvl ~30 on a TBC server and, I got just one question, could it be that Shaman is the WORST class to Level ever? Does it get better once you get to higher Levels? Because that was such a pain. I leveled a horde Mage on the same server to lvl ~16 just to "check" if it was me and that felt much better, sure you drink alot but that was the same with the shaman.
I had leveled just about every class during TBC do Level ~3X at least and to me it felt something like Hunter > Warlock/Rogue > Mage (no AE)/Priest > Warrior > Shaman (no comment on Pala/Druid because they changed pretty hard from classic to TBC?).
I was actually interested in rolling Shaman and i know that leveling doesn't really matter in the long run, but it just felt so horrible ^^ (and a friend decided to go Shaman).
Btw: Alliance sucks, never again. These city layouts are just so bad...
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United Kingdom20326 Posts
As mentioned i played an alliance Shaman to lvl ~30 on a TBC server and, I got just one question, could it be that Shaman is the WORST class to Level ever?
Warrior is absolute ass at medium levels 
Shaman has a lot of stuff which scales well into small groups but alone it's pretty awful ya
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Shaman is not THAT bad tbh, they rely a lot on WF procs and on having a good weapon, but they have a heal, a slow, decent armor, and wolf form for movement speed. They kill slowly but have relatively little downtime. So I'd rate them right in the middle of the pack in overall leveling speed. Only hunters,warlocks and possibly druids are significantly faster.
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Pandemona
Charlie Sheens House51493 Posts
Played to level 5 on beta with warlock was ok, was so many people though haha, trying to get groups going so u can actually tag mobs and such xD
Will defo play it, for how long im not so sure but i do enjoy leveling when things feel new and wow classic to me feels new !
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On May 23 2019 04:46 Alventenie wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2019 03:37 Godwrath wrote:On May 22 2019 21:04 Rebs wrote:On May 22 2019 15:57 Godwrath wrote:On May 22 2019 10:01 Alventenie wrote:On May 22 2019 05:55 Godwrath wrote:On May 19 2019 08:28 Rebs wrote:This feels like such a meaningless thing to investigate lol.. Completely disagree, even if leveling in WOW was somehow easy for that age since it was soloable, that mobs were dangerous lead to give a greater sense of being in a dangerous place, especially in pvp realms. No, players got better over the years. Blizzard already posted showing elites doing equal damage now as they did before. People still don't believe them. Vanilla was never 'hard' outside of the fact that so many people did not know how to play. There is very little in danger in the world if you know what to expect and how to play around it. Its actually been shown that private servers actually have made some of their fights harder because the original information they had they though was too easy (increasing armor/damage for bosses). Players getting better has nothing to do with the world being easier or not (silly argument to be honest, it is one that is repeated ad nauseum like MMOs didn't exist before WoW, maybe you were a noob back then, not everyone was). I didn't say vanilla was ever hard, or if that was a point of contention, but if your character can't deal with 2-3 mobs at the same time efficiently is not about "skill", just about raw numbers. The danger comes from other players being able to kill you easily if you are engaged. The danger comes from having to rest often. The danger comes from pulling more than what you can deal with. And that relies on how much damage can the mobs dish out and sustain entirely, which was what Rebs was saying "was not worth it to investigate or even better if it was faster". Whatever else you are answering to, is a product of your imagination. Actually if you are saying that a character is unable to deal with 2-3 mobs and able to deal with 1. That automatically makes things more difficult no ? What would you call a situation where handling t one mob and harder against 2-3 is a more "threatening" (whatever the reason might be, in your case "damage") . I would call that an increase in difficulty. What would you call it ? Yeah ... So his assumption that you are making the claim that the game was harder is fair. So I would stop with the act of trying to be clever with semantics. You know what you meant and when he called it out you left yourself a convenient dodge. And my point of contention had nothing to do with the danger in the world and whether it mattered or not. That is an extension you created all on your own because you also seem to be worried that cats on an island had a lower damage value. When none of the other evidence suggests there is a consistent problem with damage values. My contention is that it is a completely isolated case and suggesting based on the evidence that this was a wide spread phenomenon was a meaningless exercise. It is not a player problem to solve. The post is literally "a tiger on an island is doing the wrong damage, we must scour the world to check for incorrect damage values based on this." And unlike you, I actually read the thread fully and concluded it was not worth the exercise. Can you in good faith say that you read the thread he linked properly before disagreeing with me ? Yeah. Think about that. And if people want to investigate, go ahead. I didnt once say that people arent free to exercise their god given right to pursue what to me "felt" like a meaningless activity. The bottom line is its a report and move on observation not a "we must investigate, blizzard might be cheating us investigation." The better if faster was simply my personal opinion. Try pulling more aggressively with halved damage values in Vanilla. I can assure you the dangers you are alluding to would be ever present. You and your pro ass would be in just as much danger from the "world". But the fact is that you are being a bit if an elitist turd if you think that it was just raw numbers that made the world more difficult back then. I promise you I can breeze through Vanilla content now without a single one of the hiccups that I had to face back then.Simply because I know and remember enough to optimize my gameplay around the numbers that doexist. All it really does is make it slower. I understand the numbers enough to know when to disengage if I make a mistake, I understand what content is better served in groups and how to find them, what order to follow it. We know and understand all of the numbers pretty well now so playing around them is simply a matter of speed. Not difficulty. The danger from the world is about as high as trying to do a WQ with warmode on in BFA. Its just that NPC's form a smaller part of that particular conversation. And granted there will be plenty of them this time around aswell. But with all the content sharing going on I doubt it will be that much of a thing as it was. And its rather elitist to suggest that most people back then werent noobs or at the very least knew where things were, how to handle them and how to get around the world. So not only is it a bullshit argument it is the sort of elitist statement + Show Spoiler + (that you have no real grounds for making given we have no evidence of what skills or knowledge you possesed back then ) that firmly belongs back up your ass which is where it appears it came from. You are reading shit into what i wrote that i did not. It's simple, you are trying to paint me as some hardcore vanilla defender that attempts to get the classic edition with a purity seal. Let me dispel that for you, i am not. At this point i don't really care how the game ends up. Where did i say that not being able to farm efficiently 2-3 mobs at the same time (which some classes could) was making the game hard? No, i said DANGEROUS, because you are more exposed for a longer time to be ganked, get adds (remember those filthy gnolls running away and bringing more dudes over and over? i member). And i already explained why. You are trying to focus this on hard or whatever, WOW was never hard, but the world felt way better back then for reasons you choose to ignore, the time consuming aspect of grinding/leveling is fundamental to the open world experience. What i answered to (and i already explained it to you) was that such a quality of life change like making the mobs deal less damage can change how the game feels specially in pvp servers (and i already said that i don't know if what Cyro posted is true, but that's irrelevant to the point i am argueing against, which finds it irrelevant). It's not elitist to call or suggest that some people weren't MMO noobs, because some of us weren't. It's factual. I am pretty sure you are aware that some of us had played games like SWG, Camelot, Everquest, Ultima and more for years before even stepping a single foot into Azeroth's online version, and in many ways WoW streamlined and simplified how MMO worked back then (in many ways for the better imo). We already knew how to kite, how to purge effects, make our builds, how to search for efficient farming routes, etc. WoW didn't invent anything new in that regard, it just polished the turd to make it more appealing to a wider spectrum of players. That's why when people make the argument about how "the game wasn't even hard back then", "players are better now" are irrelevant, because they are argueing against a strawman. Nobody thinks the game was harder mechanically speaking. And if they do, they are too dumb to deserve your time. What vanilla had over current wow iteration is how the world felt. And while some people believe it's because of the pink colored glasses, the reality is that the game had changed so much over the years that you could not possibly make a convincing argument either way. You keep saying the world should be dangerous, but the point I (and maybe Rebs I don't want to quote for him) are making is that the world is not dangerous anymore because we have all of the knowledge. There is nothing we don't know about classic and thats why it isnt dangerous. You can mention pvp servers but that isn't a 'danger' part of the game because that is just another player in the game. Its not the game against you, its a player against you.
I am saying that you are both wrong if you think halving damage output from mobs doesn't make the world feel less dangerous,and i feel like i shouldn't have to state something that obvious.
All the stuff you mention, i already did back then, and the reason I did it was, surprise, because i already knew how to farm and because it was dangerous not to do it, in pvp servers you still had to keep an eye in your resources and your surroundings all the time even if you found a safe spot (which i did plenty, if you are interested my gaming routine back then was to grind a few hours leveling and afterwards farming for raids, and dedicate the rest of my time to outdoor pvp or organized bgs).
Tell me, when was the last time you were pulling mobs one by one to safe spots and checking your surroundings all the time, timing repops to avoid being caught and maximize your farming time, reading the general in case there were parties ganking people. When was the last time that you would had been sneaking from enemy players to be able to kill mobs to continue your progress, or even better to get the jump on them. That was day by day leveling in vanilla, not something that happened to you once in a blue moon. Hell even at max level that was a good chunk of my time spent in game outside of raids.
Is this hard? No. Does it require something from you other than smashing buttons? Yes. Does it help to inmerse yourself into the world where you are playing? Absolutely.
The reason this has changed through the years isn't that "players got better, but that blizzard accommodated the game to a good chunk of people who do not enjoy that thrill. And that's perfectly fine, i have friends who hate being ganked and just can't play that kind of game where they can be jumped, they just don't have fun, but don't come to tell me that "players were bad back then that's why the game felt harder" when i am telling (repeatdly) you that the point wasn't that it was harder, but that it was thrilling to be in the outside, especially in contrast to nowadays queueing or safely tagging mobs for your world quests. And mobs damage is a fundamental part of it, as were respawn times, mob's health, player's damage output, player's resources (it's not the same being able to throw 10 frostbolts, than 20 before resting, even if it doesn't make the game harder, right?), etc.
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On May 24 2019 07:32 Godwrath wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2019 04:46 Alventenie wrote:On May 23 2019 03:37 Godwrath wrote:On May 22 2019 21:04 Rebs wrote:On May 22 2019 15:57 Godwrath wrote:On May 22 2019 10:01 Alventenie wrote:On May 22 2019 05:55 Godwrath wrote:On May 19 2019 08:28 Rebs wrote:This feels like such a meaningless thing to investigate lol.. Completely disagree, even if leveling in WOW was somehow easy for that age since it was soloable, that mobs were dangerous lead to give a greater sense of being in a dangerous place, especially in pvp realms. No, players got better over the years. Blizzard already posted showing elites doing equal damage now as they did before. People still don't believe them. Vanilla was never 'hard' outside of the fact that so many people did not know how to play. There is very little in danger in the world if you know what to expect and how to play around it. Its actually been shown that private servers actually have made some of their fights harder because the original information they had they though was too easy (increasing armor/damage for bosses). Players getting better has nothing to do with the world being easier or not (silly argument to be honest, it is one that is repeated ad nauseum like MMOs didn't exist before WoW, maybe you were a noob back then, not everyone was). I didn't say vanilla was ever hard, or if that was a point of contention, but if your character can't deal with 2-3 mobs at the same time efficiently is not about "skill", just about raw numbers. The danger comes from other players being able to kill you easily if you are engaged. The danger comes from having to rest often. The danger comes from pulling more than what you can deal with. And that relies on how much damage can the mobs dish out and sustain entirely, which was what Rebs was saying "was not worth it to investigate or even better if it was faster". Whatever else you are answering to, is a product of your imagination. Actually if you are saying that a character is unable to deal with 2-3 mobs and able to deal with 1. That automatically makes things more difficult no ? What would you call a situation where handling t one mob and harder against 2-3 is a more "threatening" (whatever the reason might be, in your case "damage") . I would call that an increase in difficulty. What would you call it ? Yeah ... So his assumption that you are making the claim that the game was harder is fair. So I would stop with the act of trying to be clever with semantics. You know what you meant and when he called it out you left yourself a convenient dodge. And my point of contention had nothing to do with the danger in the world and whether it mattered or not. That is an extension you created all on your own because you also seem to be worried that cats on an island had a lower damage value. When none of the other evidence suggests there is a consistent problem with damage values. My contention is that it is a completely isolated case and suggesting based on the evidence that this was a wide spread phenomenon was a meaningless exercise. It is not a player problem to solve. The post is literally "a tiger on an island is doing the wrong damage, we must scour the world to check for incorrect damage values based on this." And unlike you, I actually read the thread fully and concluded it was not worth the exercise. Can you in good faith say that you read the thread he linked properly before disagreeing with me ? Yeah. Think about that. And if people want to investigate, go ahead. I didnt once say that people arent free to exercise their god given right to pursue what to me "felt" like a meaningless activity. The bottom line is its a report and move on observation not a "we must investigate, blizzard might be cheating us investigation." The better if faster was simply my personal opinion. Try pulling more aggressively with halved damage values in Vanilla. I can assure you the dangers you are alluding to would be ever present. You and your pro ass would be in just as much danger from the "world". But the fact is that you are being a bit if an elitist turd if you think that it was just raw numbers that made the world more difficult back then. I promise you I can breeze through Vanilla content now without a single one of the hiccups that I had to face back then.Simply because I know and remember enough to optimize my gameplay around the numbers that doexist. All it really does is make it slower. I understand the numbers enough to know when to disengage if I make a mistake, I understand what content is better served in groups and how to find them, what order to follow it. We know and understand all of the numbers pretty well now so playing around them is simply a matter of speed. Not difficulty. The danger from the world is about as high as trying to do a WQ with warmode on in BFA. Its just that NPC's form a smaller part of that particular conversation. And granted there will be plenty of them this time around aswell. But with all the content sharing going on I doubt it will be that much of a thing as it was. And its rather elitist to suggest that most people back then werent noobs or at the very least knew where things were, how to handle them and how to get around the world. So not only is it a bullshit argument it is the sort of elitist statement + Show Spoiler + (that you have no real grounds for making given we have no evidence of what skills or knowledge you possesed back then ) that firmly belongs back up your ass which is where it appears it came from. You are reading shit into what i wrote that i did not. It's simple, you are trying to paint me as some hardcore vanilla defender that attempts to get the classic edition with a purity seal. Let me dispel that for you, i am not. At this point i don't really care how the game ends up. Where did i say that not being able to farm efficiently 2-3 mobs at the same time (which some classes could) was making the game hard? No, i said DANGEROUS, because you are more exposed for a longer time to be ganked, get adds (remember those filthy gnolls running away and bringing more dudes over and over? i member). And i already explained why. You are trying to focus this on hard or whatever, WOW was never hard, but the world felt way better back then for reasons you choose to ignore, the time consuming aspect of grinding/leveling is fundamental to the open world experience. What i answered to (and i already explained it to you) was that such a quality of life change like making the mobs deal less damage can change how the game feels specially in pvp servers (and i already said that i don't know if what Cyro posted is true, but that's irrelevant to the point i am argueing against, which finds it irrelevant). It's not elitist to call or suggest that some people weren't MMO noobs, because some of us weren't. It's factual. I am pretty sure you are aware that some of us had played games like SWG, Camelot, Everquest, Ultima and more for years before even stepping a single foot into Azeroth's online version, and in many ways WoW streamlined and simplified how MMO worked back then (in many ways for the better imo). We already knew how to kite, how to purge effects, make our builds, how to search for efficient farming routes, etc. WoW didn't invent anything new in that regard, it just polished the turd to make it more appealing to a wider spectrum of players. That's why when people make the argument about how "the game wasn't even hard back then", "players are better now" are irrelevant, because they are argueing against a strawman. Nobody thinks the game was harder mechanically speaking. And if they do, they are too dumb to deserve your time. What vanilla had over current wow iteration is how the world felt. And while some people believe it's because of the pink colored glasses, the reality is that the game had changed so much over the years that you could not possibly make a convincing argument either way. You keep saying the world should be dangerous, but the point I (and maybe Rebs I don't want to quote for him) are making is that the world is not dangerous anymore because we have all of the knowledge. There is nothing we don't know about classic and thats why it isnt dangerous. You can mention pvp servers but that isn't a 'danger' part of the game because that is just another player in the game. Its not the game against you, its a player against you. I am saying that you are both wrong if you think halving damage output from mobs doesn't make the world feel less dangerous,and i feel like i shouldn't have to state something that obvious. All the stuff you mention, i already did back then, and the reason I did it was, surprise, because i already knew how to farm and because it was dangerous not to do it, in pvp servers you still had to keep an eye in your resources and your surroundings all the time even if you found a safe spot (which i did plenty, if you are interested my gaming routine back then was to grind a few hours leveling and afterwards farming for raids, and dedicate the rest of my time to outdoor pvp or organized bgs). Tell me, when was the last time you were pulling mobs one by one to safe spots and checking your surroundings all the time, timing repops to avoid being caught and maximize your farming time, reading the general in case there were parties ganking people. When was the last time that you would had been sneaking from enemy players to be able to kill mobs to continue your progress, or even better to get the jump on them. That was day by day leveling in vanilla, not something that happened to you once in a blue moon. Hell even at max level that was a good chunk of my time spent in game outside of raids. Is this hard? No. Does it require something from you other than smashing buttons? Yes. Does it help to inmerse yourself into the world where you are playing? Absolutely. The reason this has changed through the years isn't that "players got better, but that blizzard accommodated the game to a good chunk of people who do not enjoy that thrill. And that's perfectly fine, i have friends who hate being ganked and just can't play that kind of game where they can be jumped, they just don't have fun, but don't come to tell me that "players were bad back then that's why the game felt harder" when i am telling (repeatdly) you that the point wasn't that it was harder, but that it was thrilling to be in the outside, especially in contrast to nowadays queueing or safely tagging mobs for your world quests. And mobs damage is a fundamental part of it, as were respawn times, mob's health, player's damage output, player's resources (it's not the same being able to throw 10 frostbolts, than 20 before resting, even if it doesn't make the game harder, right?), etc.
And to follow on from this, if the reduction in danger is coming from players getting better and Classic being a known quantity then that would be one thing, but this line of posting started because investigating why mobs are doing 50% damage was characterised as a pointless thing to investigate. The implication being that giving players a flat 50% damage reduction would be some sort of irrelevance.
It's arguing a completely different point and one that's more than a bit silly tbh.
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On May 24 2019 07:32 Godwrath wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2019 04:46 Alventenie wrote:On May 23 2019 03:37 Godwrath wrote:On May 22 2019 21:04 Rebs wrote:On May 22 2019 15:57 Godwrath wrote:On May 22 2019 10:01 Alventenie wrote:On May 22 2019 05:55 Godwrath wrote:On May 19 2019 08:28 Rebs wrote:This feels like such a meaningless thing to investigate lol.. Completely disagree, even if leveling in WOW was somehow easy for that age since it was soloable, that mobs were dangerous lead to give a greater sense of being in a dangerous place, especially in pvp realms. No, players got better over the years. Blizzard already posted showing elites doing equal damage now as they did before. People still don't believe them. Vanilla was never 'hard' outside of the fact that so many people did not know how to play. There is very little in danger in the world if you know what to expect and how to play around it. Its actually been shown that private servers actually have made some of their fights harder because the original information they had they though was too easy (increasing armor/damage for bosses). Players getting better has nothing to do with the world being easier or not (silly argument to be honest, it is one that is repeated ad nauseum like MMOs didn't exist before WoW, maybe you were a noob back then, not everyone was). I didn't say vanilla was ever hard, or if that was a point of contention, but if your character can't deal with 2-3 mobs at the same time efficiently is not about "skill", just about raw numbers. The danger comes from other players being able to kill you easily if you are engaged. The danger comes from having to rest often. The danger comes from pulling more than what you can deal with. And that relies on how much damage can the mobs dish out and sustain entirely, which was what Rebs was saying "was not worth it to investigate or even better if it was faster". Whatever else you are answering to, is a product of your imagination. Actually if you are saying that a character is unable to deal with 2-3 mobs and able to deal with 1. That automatically makes things more difficult no ? What would you call a situation where handling t one mob and harder against 2-3 is a more "threatening" (whatever the reason might be, in your case "damage") . I would call that an increase in difficulty. What would you call it ? Yeah ... So his assumption that you are making the claim that the game was harder is fair. So I would stop with the act of trying to be clever with semantics. You know what you meant and when he called it out you left yourself a convenient dodge. And my point of contention had nothing to do with the danger in the world and whether it mattered or not. That is an extension you created all on your own because you also seem to be worried that cats on an island had a lower damage value. When none of the other evidence suggests there is a consistent problem with damage values. My contention is that it is a completely isolated case and suggesting based on the evidence that this was a wide spread phenomenon was a meaningless exercise. It is not a player problem to solve. The post is literally "a tiger on an island is doing the wrong damage, we must scour the world to check for incorrect damage values based on this." And unlike you, I actually read the thread fully and concluded it was not worth the exercise. Can you in good faith say that you read the thread he linked properly before disagreeing with me ? Yeah. Think about that. And if people want to investigate, go ahead. I didnt once say that people arent free to exercise their god given right to pursue what to me "felt" like a meaningless activity. The bottom line is its a report and move on observation not a "we must investigate, blizzard might be cheating us investigation." The better if faster was simply my personal opinion. Try pulling more aggressively with halved damage values in Vanilla. I can assure you the dangers you are alluding to would be ever present. You and your pro ass would be in just as much danger from the "world". But the fact is that you are being a bit if an elitist turd if you think that it was just raw numbers that made the world more difficult back then. I promise you I can breeze through Vanilla content now without a single one of the hiccups that I had to face back then.Simply because I know and remember enough to optimize my gameplay around the numbers that doexist. All it really does is make it slower. I understand the numbers enough to know when to disengage if I make a mistake, I understand what content is better served in groups and how to find them, what order to follow it. We know and understand all of the numbers pretty well now so playing around them is simply a matter of speed. Not difficulty. The danger from the world is about as high as trying to do a WQ with warmode on in BFA. Its just that NPC's form a smaller part of that particular conversation. And granted there will be plenty of them this time around aswell. But with all the content sharing going on I doubt it will be that much of a thing as it was. And its rather elitist to suggest that most people back then werent noobs or at the very least knew where things were, how to handle them and how to get around the world. So not only is it a bullshit argument it is the sort of elitist statement + Show Spoiler + (that you have no real grounds for making given we have no evidence of what skills or knowledge you possesed back then ) that firmly belongs back up your ass which is where it appears it came from. You are reading shit into what i wrote that i did not. It's simple, you are trying to paint me as some hardcore vanilla defender that attempts to get the classic edition with a purity seal. Let me dispel that for you, i am not. At this point i don't really care how the game ends up. Where did i say that not being able to farm efficiently 2-3 mobs at the same time (which some classes could) was making the game hard? No, i said DANGEROUS, because you are more exposed for a longer time to be ganked, get adds (remember those filthy gnolls running away and bringing more dudes over and over? i member). And i already explained why. You are trying to focus this on hard or whatever, WOW was never hard, but the world felt way better back then for reasons you choose to ignore, the time consuming aspect of grinding/leveling is fundamental to the open world experience. What i answered to (and i already explained it to you) was that such a quality of life change like making the mobs deal less damage can change how the game feels specially in pvp servers (and i already said that i don't know if what Cyro posted is true, but that's irrelevant to the point i am argueing against, which finds it irrelevant). It's not elitist to call or suggest that some people weren't MMO noobs, because some of us weren't. It's factual. I am pretty sure you are aware that some of us had played games like SWG, Camelot, Everquest, Ultima and more for years before even stepping a single foot into Azeroth's online version, and in many ways WoW streamlined and simplified how MMO worked back then (in many ways for the better imo). We already knew how to kite, how to purge effects, make our builds, how to search for efficient farming routes, etc. WoW didn't invent anything new in that regard, it just polished the turd to make it more appealing to a wider spectrum of players. That's why when people make the argument about how "the game wasn't even hard back then", "players are better now" are irrelevant, because they are argueing against a strawman. Nobody thinks the game was harder mechanically speaking. And if they do, they are too dumb to deserve your time. What vanilla had over current wow iteration is how the world felt. And while some people believe it's because of the pink colored glasses, the reality is that the game had changed so much over the years that you could not possibly make a convincing argument either way. You keep saying the world should be dangerous, but the point I (and maybe Rebs I don't want to quote for him) are making is that the world is not dangerous anymore because we have all of the knowledge. There is nothing we don't know about classic and thats why it isnt dangerous. You can mention pvp servers but that isn't a 'danger' part of the game because that is just another player in the game. Its not the game against you, its a player against you. I am saying that you are both wrong if you think halving damage output from mobs doesn't make the world feel less dangerous,and i feel like i shouldn't have to state something that obvious.
No where did I state this. The information provided was that people are suggesting that mobs hit half as hard. The evidence from both blizzard and other players doing research into it is that this fact of all mobs doing half damage is wrong.
People are stating from that very isolated incident of a tiger and stoneskin totem bug that a good number of mobs aren't doing correct damage and as such making classic easy.
All my comments refer to that the damage numbers are the same as they were in vanilla, and that people are looking back at vanilla being hard as nostalgia. Many people are saying that vanilla felt harder, but all the numbers are the same when compared back to them.
I don't get why you keep bringing up that you were some great person at MMOs before WoW. I never said that was wrong, but a vast majority of players that started wow were not great/experts at the game (myself included). Even if you did have experience in MMOs before wow, its unlikely that you had as much experience in 2004 as you do now about wow.
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On May 24 2019 12:44 Alventenie wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2019 07:32 Godwrath wrote:On May 23 2019 04:46 Alventenie wrote:On May 23 2019 03:37 Godwrath wrote:On May 22 2019 21:04 Rebs wrote:On May 22 2019 15:57 Godwrath wrote:On May 22 2019 10:01 Alventenie wrote:On May 22 2019 05:55 Godwrath wrote:On May 19 2019 08:28 Rebs wrote:This feels like such a meaningless thing to investigate lol.. Completely disagree, even if leveling in WOW was somehow easy for that age since it was soloable, that mobs were dangerous lead to give a greater sense of being in a dangerous place, especially in pvp realms. No, players got better over the years. Blizzard already posted showing elites doing equal damage now as they did before. People still don't believe them. Vanilla was never 'hard' outside of the fact that so many people did not know how to play. There is very little in danger in the world if you know what to expect and how to play around it. Its actually been shown that private servers actually have made some of their fights harder because the original information they had they though was too easy (increasing armor/damage for bosses). Players getting better has nothing to do with the world being easier or not (silly argument to be honest, it is one that is repeated ad nauseum like MMOs didn't exist before WoW, maybe you were a noob back then, not everyone was). I didn't say vanilla was ever hard, or if that was a point of contention, but if your character can't deal with 2-3 mobs at the same time efficiently is not about "skill", just about raw numbers. The danger comes from other players being able to kill you easily if you are engaged. The danger comes from having to rest often. The danger comes from pulling more than what you can deal with. And that relies on how much damage can the mobs dish out and sustain entirely, which was what Rebs was saying "was not worth it to investigate or even better if it was faster". Whatever else you are answering to, is a product of your imagination. Actually if you are saying that a character is unable to deal with 2-3 mobs and able to deal with 1. That automatically makes things more difficult no ? What would you call a situation where handling t one mob and harder against 2-3 is a more "threatening" (whatever the reason might be, in your case "damage") . I would call that an increase in difficulty. What would you call it ? Yeah ... So his assumption that you are making the claim that the game was harder is fair. So I would stop with the act of trying to be clever with semantics. You know what you meant and when he called it out you left yourself a convenient dodge. And my point of contention had nothing to do with the danger in the world and whether it mattered or not. That is an extension you created all on your own because you also seem to be worried that cats on an island had a lower damage value. When none of the other evidence suggests there is a consistent problem with damage values. My contention is that it is a completely isolated case and suggesting based on the evidence that this was a wide spread phenomenon was a meaningless exercise. It is not a player problem to solve. The post is literally "a tiger on an island is doing the wrong damage, we must scour the world to check for incorrect damage values based on this." And unlike you, I actually read the thread fully and concluded it was not worth the exercise. Can you in good faith say that you read the thread he linked properly before disagreeing with me ? Yeah. Think about that. And if people want to investigate, go ahead. I didnt once say that people arent free to exercise their god given right to pursue what to me "felt" like a meaningless activity. The bottom line is its a report and move on observation not a "we must investigate, blizzard might be cheating us investigation." The better if faster was simply my personal opinion. Try pulling more aggressively with halved damage values in Vanilla. I can assure you the dangers you are alluding to would be ever present. You and your pro ass would be in just as much danger from the "world". But the fact is that you are being a bit if an elitist turd if you think that it was just raw numbers that made the world more difficult back then. I promise you I can breeze through Vanilla content now without a single one of the hiccups that I had to face back then.Simply because I know and remember enough to optimize my gameplay around the numbers that doexist. All it really does is make it slower. I understand the numbers enough to know when to disengage if I make a mistake, I understand what content is better served in groups and how to find them, what order to follow it. We know and understand all of the numbers pretty well now so playing around them is simply a matter of speed. Not difficulty. The danger from the world is about as high as trying to do a WQ with warmode on in BFA. Its just that NPC's form a smaller part of that particular conversation. And granted there will be plenty of them this time around aswell. But with all the content sharing going on I doubt it will be that much of a thing as it was. And its rather elitist to suggest that most people back then werent noobs or at the very least knew where things were, how to handle them and how to get around the world. So not only is it a bullshit argument it is the sort of elitist statement + Show Spoiler + (that you have no real grounds for making given we have no evidence of what skills or knowledge you possesed back then ) that firmly belongs back up your ass which is where it appears it came from. You are reading shit into what i wrote that i did not. It's simple, you are trying to paint me as some hardcore vanilla defender that attempts to get the classic edition with a purity seal. Let me dispel that for you, i am not. At this point i don't really care how the game ends up. Where did i say that not being able to farm efficiently 2-3 mobs at the same time (which some classes could) was making the game hard? No, i said DANGEROUS, because you are more exposed for a longer time to be ganked, get adds (remember those filthy gnolls running away and bringing more dudes over and over? i member). And i already explained why. You are trying to focus this on hard or whatever, WOW was never hard, but the world felt way better back then for reasons you choose to ignore, the time consuming aspect of grinding/leveling is fundamental to the open world experience. What i answered to (and i already explained it to you) was that such a quality of life change like making the mobs deal less damage can change how the game feels specially in pvp servers (and i already said that i don't know if what Cyro posted is true, but that's irrelevant to the point i am argueing against, which finds it irrelevant). It's not elitist to call or suggest that some people weren't MMO noobs, because some of us weren't. It's factual. I am pretty sure you are aware that some of us had played games like SWG, Camelot, Everquest, Ultima and more for years before even stepping a single foot into Azeroth's online version, and in many ways WoW streamlined and simplified how MMO worked back then (in many ways for the better imo). We already knew how to kite, how to purge effects, make our builds, how to search for efficient farming routes, etc. WoW didn't invent anything new in that regard, it just polished the turd to make it more appealing to a wider spectrum of players. That's why when people make the argument about how "the game wasn't even hard back then", "players are better now" are irrelevant, because they are argueing against a strawman. Nobody thinks the game was harder mechanically speaking. And if they do, they are too dumb to deserve your time. What vanilla had over current wow iteration is how the world felt. And while some people believe it's because of the pink colored glasses, the reality is that the game had changed so much over the years that you could not possibly make a convincing argument either way. You keep saying the world should be dangerous, but the point I (and maybe Rebs I don't want to quote for him) are making is that the world is not dangerous anymore because we have all of the knowledge. There is nothing we don't know about classic and thats why it isnt dangerous. You can mention pvp servers but that isn't a 'danger' part of the game because that is just another player in the game. Its not the game against you, its a player against you. I am saying that you are both wrong if you think halving damage output from mobs doesn't make the world feel less dangerous,and i feel like i shouldn't have to state something that obvious. No where did I state this. The information provided was that people are suggesting that mobs hit half as hard. The evidence from both blizzard and other players doing research into it is that this fact of all mobs doing half damage is wrong.
Show nested quote +I understand what you are trying to say, and my counter point is that the world isn't dangerous anymore.
You have a fixation that the world isn't dangerous because players are ellevated to such level where they won't die anymore, they won't get ganked and they will be able to farm no problem in contested zones. We both know it's not true, because we have played retail.
People are stating from that very isolated incident of a tiger and stoneskin totem bug that a good number of mobs aren't doing correct damage and as such making classic easy.
All my comments refer to that the damage numbers are the same as they were in vanilla, and that people are looking back at vanilla being hard as nostalgia. Many people are saying that vanilla felt harder, but all the numbers are the same when compared back to them.
Perfect, and my comments were against the idea that mobs dealing half the damage would be irrelevant, and you already were making the argument that numbers don't matter in that regard because players are so much better now.
I don't get why you keep bringing up that you were some great person at MMOs before WoW. I never said that was wrong, but a vast majority of players that started wow were not great/experts at the game (myself included). Even if you did have experience in MMOs before wow, its unlikely that you had as much experience in 2004 as you do now about wow.
That's not what i am saying, but good misscharacterization, because instead of answering to my point (where i am telling you that players who had played MMORPGs before already knew how to play and still found the world immersion good and dangerous enough) you think i am bragging for something as irrelevant as that.
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On May 23 2019 16:07 Velr wrote:
Question about early leveling:
As mentioned i played an alliance Shaman to lvl ~30 on a TBC server and, I got just one question, could it be that Shaman is the WORST class to Level ever? Does it get better once you get to higher Levels? Because that was such a pain. I leveled a horde Mage on the same server to lvl ~16 just to "check" if it was me and that felt much better, sure you drink alot but that was the same with the shaman.
I had leveled just about every class during TBC do Level ~3X at least and to me it felt something like Hunter > Warlock/Rogue > Mage (no AE)/Priest > Warrior > Shaman (no comment on Pala/Druid because they changed pretty hard from classic to TBC?).
I was actually interested in rolling Shaman and i know that leveling doesn't really matter in the long run, but it just felt so horrible ^^ (and a friend decided to go Shaman).
Btw: Alliance sucks, never again. These city layouts are just so bad...
I cannot tell you how leveling speed compares to other classes, it has been too long for me to compare.
What I can say is, as soon as you unlock Dual Wield, Shaman kills way faster with Windfury. I remember loving my big two hander, one-shoting mobs from time to time. But switching to Dual Wield was a real eye-opener.
I don't know at what level you can reach the talent though, I think it was a 21 or 31 points, so lvl30 or lvl40.
So yeah, the first 30 levels might be slow.
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Hey, PM me if somebody is forming a WoW Classic guild or interested in one on EU. I was raid leader for AQ40 and Nax progression back in the day. We cleared AQ40 except Cthun, and first 6 Nax bosses.
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I was excited to play a priest when the game comes out but it looks like everyone's going to roll one. Damn.
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I am probably going to play a mage again, kinda going back to the roots since the mage was the first character I created back in 2004... ah the nostalgia. Plus, leveling as a mage was amazing compared to other classes. Downtimes were managable since you could provide yourself with unlimited food, blink made you go faster and beeing able to cast portals was paid well and saved you an enormous amount of time.
All in all a great experience.
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Gonna make another druid main and wpvp my way to 60 and some beyond^^
might make a alt or a few if I feel like it but it's hard to play more than a char at a time
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EPT
