Today Team Liquid is proud to announce the creation of our Civilization Team and an initiative to launch Civilization VI into the world of competitive esports. We are also excited to introduce our newest addition to the Liquid family, legendary strategy gamer Stephen "MrGameTheory" Takowsky who will serve as the team's captain.
As exciting as this is, I wish I knew more about it. I don't know much about the scene, err I didn't even know there was a scene! Does anyone have any literature about the history of competitive Civ?
I haven't looked at the Civ VI thread, but I hope we can have 50 pages of debate on whether removing tile stacking was a good or bad idea like how we debate MBS in other parts of TL.
On October 22 2016 06:20 graNite wrote: What are the game settings that are used in competitive games? Are these as long as high level chess games? Round based strategy can take a while...
Are there even big tournaments or leagues for CIV?
FFA and 3v3. Random civs or a draft for FFA, identical civs on each side for 3v3. Small maps, Pangaea only, if you don't have the next 6 hours free on your schedule you shouldn't play (for civ 5)
No tournaments for money as far as I'm aware, but maybe that's changing for Civ 6.
I understand wanting to be a leader of the pack, but what if your pack consists of only you? This could either be huge for TL, or fail miserably. Quite a big risk IMO.
On October 22 2016 06:41 Jett.Jack.Alvir wrote: I understand wanting to be a leader of the pack, but what if your pack consists of only you? This could either be huge for TL, or fail miserably. Quite a big risk IMO.
I doubt they invested a lot of money into this and I'd be surprised if the players got a real salary from TL. They got like a dozen different teams in different games already, not seeing any real risk here.
On October 22 2016 06:41 Jett.Jack.Alvir wrote: I understand wanting to be a leader of the pack, but what if your pack consists of only you? This could either be huge for TL, or fail miserably. Quite a big risk IMO.
I doubt they invested a lot of money into this and I'd be surprised if the players got a real salary from TL. They got like a dozen different teams in different games already, not seeing any real risk here.
Also never heard of comp Civ till now.
Yeah you're probably right, I doubt they are investing a huge amount into this.
This is pretty cool, but I'm having trouble processing the idea of Civ as an "esport". Can't help but think a game would last even longer than a Go match.
Interesting. I'm not convinced that Civilization can become an eSport (unless Firaxis pushed specifically towards that, and even then), but best of luck to Liquid Civ.
On October 22 2016 08:16 TwiggyWan wrote: So are people expected to sit and watch a marathon game for 20+ hours? How can it be esport if it can't be watched?
I had no idea civ 6 was competitive. Teamliquid really goes out there sometimes and I love them for it. I will pick up a copy and join in the madness I think.
This is very strange, I'll definitely check out some of whatever this is going to be since I like all kinds of strategy games... But wow is this weird! glhf
after talking to MrGameTheory for this i'm actually pretty interested in seeing what competitive Civ is like. i've been playing since civ1 and didn't know there was a competitive scene, so i'm gonna tune in for sure. the game is certainly deep so it could be really cool.
On October 22 2016 08:16 TwiggyWan wrote: So are people expected to sit and watch a marathon game for 20+ hours? How can it be esport if it can't be watched?
games in MP Civ3 rarely lasted more that 3 hours. everything is about the setup-
MrGameTheory did you play with NQ in civ 5? I don't remember you from there.
Can't wait for firstclick advantage to decide a 6 hour competitive game, that sounds like fun. Maybe someone will make a working hybrid mode mod?
Can the network code even support this? It wouldn't have in 5.
If anyone wants to watch one of the people who was generally considered the best at civ 5 multiplayer, they should watch Arvius/anzleon or filthyrobot.
Great idea. I hope the team also produces good articles, Look forward to how these games are played on a competitive level (as someone who's spent hundreds of hours on the old games but never got competitive).
I can see this working from a streaming perspective since Civ allows for viewer interaction and personality stuff that games like Hearthstone allow, but from a esport standpoint I really would not think anyone would watch comp Civ. Games take hours and it would probably be kind of boring.
I am kind of doubtful about this. I can see it have decent viewership due to pure player numbers but not really having offline tournaments since it would take forever to run them to get a winner.
Awesome. Also amusing people are suprised about competitive play. I guess those people havent spent the last 5-10 years explaining how sc2 is an eSport.
After talking with a few more members of the NQ community I have to ask what liquid is doing here. NQ (No Quitters) has been where competitive civ 5 players have played for years. The scene might be small but the competition is fierce. From what I can tell nobody even has a clue who mrgametheory is. He certainly isn't a rank 1 player in the Civ 5 scene.
Liquid certainly hasn't done its research, and this makes me question whether or not this is real or a joke.
No clue who mrgametheory is. Didn't know Civ5 had a comp scene. NQ? Yeah don't know that either.
This is all very interesting though. I feel like the first time I heard Koreans played BW professionally.
However, I have to say this doesn't seem super exciting. Granted I only played Civ 1-3, so I'm not involved in that scene at all.
And to answer ExO's question, they are here to compete. Just because you are from a community of comp Civ players, doesn't mean that your community is the only one to exist. I don't know any comp Civ communities, but perhaps there is more than just NQ?
On October 22 2016 12:32 Jett.Jack.Alvir wrote: No clue who mrgametheory is. Didn't know Civ5 had a comp scene. NQ? Yeah don't know that either.
This is all very interesting though. I feel like the first time I heard Koreans played BW professionally.
However, I have to say this doesn't seem super exciting. Granted I only played Civ 1-3, so I'm not involved in that scene at all.
And to answer ExO's question, they are here to compete. Just because you are from a community of comp Civ players, doesn't mean that your community is the only one to exist. I don't know any comp Civ communities, but perhaps there is more than just NQ?
There might be. But I doubt anybody who has looked into playing civ 5 multiplayer competitively has managed to avoid hearing about NQ in some way. It's the only way to get stable games since public lobbies the host or another player will just leave when they are bored/irritated/etc... Not only that but every single big Civ 5 streamer is a member of NQ and has been for a long time.
On October 22 2016 12:32 Jett.Jack.Alvir wrote: No clue who mrgametheory is. Didn't know Civ5 had a comp scene. NQ? Yeah don't know that either.
This is all very interesting though. I feel like the first time I heard Koreans played BW professionally.
However, I have to say this doesn't seem super exciting. Granted I only played Civ 1-3, so I'm not involved in that scene at all.
And to answer ExO's question, they are here to compete. Just because you are from a community of comp Civ players, doesn't mean that your community is the only one to exist. I don't know any comp Civ communities, but perhaps there is more than just NQ?
There might be. But I doubt anybody who has looked into playing civ 5 multiplayer competitively has managed to avoid hearing about NQ in some way. It's the only way to get stable games since public lobbies the host or another player will just leave when they are bored/irritated/etc... Not only that but every single big Civ 5 streamer is a member of NQ and has been for a long time.
Well I'm incredibly new to this scene, so I will take your word for it. Anyways, from what you say, it sounds like TL are the new kids on the block. I will tune in to see what goes down.
Maybe the first tournament can be set up between TL and someone from NQ? It would sound like a great way to kick shit off.
edit: WTF I just re-read that announcement, and I didn't know TL had a Clash Royale team.... oh boy what constitutes esports must be a vague definition at best.
Ok so I wanted to see what the hype was all about, and there is no way I can watch Civ 6 tournament.
I am a complete outsider to the game, so I watched a few different streams, and I have no clue what anyone is doing in that game. Also, it seems incredibly boring to watch. I am not a fan of Michael Bay's movies, but they provide a level of entertainment I can expect (violence, gratuitous sexy scenes, homosexual jokes, racial stereotypes, etc.) I don't think an esport should be like a Michael Bay movie, but for crying out loud I have more fun watching decrepit ancients in wheelchairs play a game of bridge.
Now of course these are randoms streaming their shit on the internet, so I can't expect it to be informative or exciting, but these tournaments better have something of value, because right now any Civ 6 stream is boring as fuck.
I assume that this means that 2k is going to try to make competitive civ a thing, which is interesting. I'm also curious how someone who people who people who play competitive has never heard of is called the top civ 5 player.
I have this itchy feeling Civ 6 is going to be like golf. Watching it makes you want to bath in an army of fire ants, but playing it is rather fun.
On October 22 2016 12:57 Jaaaaasper wrote: I assume that this means that 2k is going to try to make competitive civ a thing, which is interesting. I'm also curious how someone who people who people who play competitive has never heard of is called the top civ 5 player.
also want to buy liquid boes
Yeah it is interesting that TL would pick up a guy that seems to be a complete nobody to the competitive Civ scene.
They did provide a cv of Mrgametheory in that announcement, but at least someone from within the community must have heard of him. Mind you, being a pro Clash Royale player isn't something you should polish and pin to your chest.
Regardless, I will tune in just to see what its all about.
I love civilization and have been playing since civ 2, but the games taking so long is a big hurdle to overcome if people are going to be watching a competitive scene. It's not insurmountable, however; if you have observers casting from a replay they can speed things up. You could even use some creative editing which could make it a lot of fun to watch. The sacrifice would be not being able to watch games live.
The Steam group where games are organized is here. A man by the name of fruitstrike developed a mod for Civ 5 to help with some of the issues that the Multiplayer balance had. Hellblazer developed a map script to go along with it, so that each starting location would be relatively balanced. A big problem with Civ 5 (including expansions) is you could get screwed over by the map generation and hellblazers map script largely solved this problem. The sub reddit for the mod/map is reddit.com/r/nqmod.
Civ 5 multiplayer had a small but active community. Babayetu_/Filthyrobot/Anzleon (Arvius) are the 3 biggest civ 5 streamers. Now everyone for now is trying out civ 6 and it's a lot of fun. The idea that liquid is looking to make competitive civ 5 a bigger and more mainstream thing really excites me. And if mrgametheory is any good at the game I look forward to a challenge.
On October 22 2016 12:32 Jett.Jack.Alvir wrote: No clue who mrgametheory is. Didn't know Civ5 had a comp scene. NQ? Yeah don't know that either.
This is all very interesting though. I feel like the first time I heard Koreans played BW professionally.
However, I have to say this doesn't seem super exciting. Granted I only played Civ 1-3, so I'm not involved in that scene at all.
And to answer ExO's question, they are here to compete. Just because you are from a community of comp Civ players, doesn't mean that your community is the only one to exist. I don't know any comp Civ communities, but perhaps there is more than just NQ?
There might be. But I doubt anybody who has looked into playing civ 5 multiplayer competitively has managed to avoid hearing about NQ in some way. It's the only way to get stable games since public lobbies the host or another player will just leave when they are bored/irritated/etc... Not only that but every single big Civ 5 streamer is a member of NQ and has been for a long time.
Hmmm it's definitely something different, so it should be thought about in a different way. I'm not sure how long the average civ VI game is, but if it were say something like 3 hours maybe only 1-2 matches would be played in a day. This would make for a very long broadcast, so maybe its viewership would moreso drop in and out throughout the day, while dedicated viewers who are interested in watching the whole thing, or those who have their second monitor playing someting on twitch all day at work will be around for the entirety of the broadcast.
I don't know just how popular or viable it would be, personally my guess would be for it to fall some place in the middle or a little below average in terms of viewership and interest, but still sustainable and noticed.
On October 22 2016 12:55 Jett.Jack.Alvir wrote: Ok so I wanted to see what the hype was all about, and there is no way I can watch Civ 6 tournament.
I am a complete outsider to the game, so I watched a few different streams, and I have no clue what anyone is doing in that game. Also, it seems incredibly boring to watch. I am not a fan of Michael Bay's movies, but they provide a level of entertainment I can expect (violence, gratuitous sexy scenes, homosexual jokes, racial stereotypes, etc.) I don't think an esport should be like a Michael Bay movie, but for crying out loud I have more fun watching decrepit ancients in wheelchairs play a game of bridge.
Now of course these are randoms streaming their shit on the internet, so I can't expect it to be informative or exciting, but these tournaments better have something of value, because right now any Civ 6 stream is boring as fuck.
I can only imagine it would be like watching a chess tournament, in the sense that sitting through hours of play is something very few people can withstand, but reading a write-up afterwards can be entertaining to most.
On October 22 2016 12:32 Jett.Jack.Alvir wrote: No clue who mrgametheory is. Didn't know Civ5 had a comp scene. NQ? Yeah don't know that either.
This is all very interesting though. I feel like the first time I heard Koreans played BW professionally.
However, I have to say this doesn't seem super exciting. Granted I only played Civ 1-3, so I'm not involved in that scene at all.
And to answer ExO's question, they are here to compete. Just because you are from a community of comp Civ players, doesn't mean that your community is the only one to exist. I don't know any comp Civ communities, but perhaps there is more than just NQ?
There might be. But I doubt anybody who has looked into playing civ 5 multiplayer competitively has managed to avoid hearing about NQ in some way. It's the only way to get stable games since public lobbies the host or another player will just leave when they are bored/irritated/etc... Not only that but every single big Civ 5 streamer is a member of NQ and has been for a long time.
If this is the case, I'm certainly not aware of it. He definitely wasn't active in Gods&Kings or Brave New World or NQ Mod era. The Civplayers website stopped being used for a multitude of reasons; the main reasons being that false match reports were quite high and not being fixed by the admins, and the way winning/losing was calculated heavily favored playing to not lose moreso than playing to win. It's hard to make an effective rankings system for an FFA game after all.
I'm a relative newcomer to Civ 5 competitive, having only played now for 3 years. I can tell you the MGT certainly doesn't have the kind of clout that Ken or KDJ did in smash. Maybe for some of the older civ games, but not for Civ 5. Though I'd be interested to hear what some of the older Civ players like Yoruus might know about him.
Seriously though, isn't a big issues with games like Civ that they just can be solved too easily? The key to the "e-sport" aspect of Starcraft is that the game is physically demanding: no amount of information will make you a champion, unless you can actually click all of that into existence. Making a viable competition based solely on intelect is quite difficult - look no further than chess really and observe its exsitential crisis, where openings and finishes are mapped out to many moves, most high-level games ends in draws and computers beat humans pretty hard. And then look at the "solutioin" in form of Go, which is still complex enough to make for a hell of a competition - but also complex enough that watching it casually makes absolutely zero sense. I just don't think this road is viable.
Hey guys. Nice to meet you all. I look forward to playing all the top Civ V players ASAP, especially the ones who got their hands on the early dev build. So which one of you NQ players with 5,000+ hours on Civ V wants to go first?
On October 22 2016 14:54 MrGameTheory wrote: Hey guys. Nice to meet you all. I look forward to playing all the top Civ V players ASAP, especially the ones who got their hands on the early dev build. So which one of you NQ players with 5,000+ hours on Civ V wants to go first?
On October 22 2016 14:38 opisska wrote: Seriously though, isn't a big issues with games like Civ that they just can be solved too easily? The key to the "e-sport" aspect of Starcraft is that the game is physically demanding: no amount of information will make you a champion, unless you can actually click all of that into existence. Making a viable competition based solely on intelect is quite difficult - look no further than chess really and observe its exsitential crisis, where openings and finishes are mapped out to many moves, most high-level games ends in draws and computers beat humans pretty hard. And then look at the "solutioin" in form of Go, which is still complex enough to make for a hell of a competition - but also complex enough that watching it casually makes absolutely zero sense. I just don't think this road is viable.
I think we need to draw a line between "esport" and "competitive game", if that makes sense.
I think there's enough hidden information and random seeding as well as rng from attacks and all those crazy modifiers to make it less "solved"
On October 22 2016 13:28 Shellshock wrote: are you going to make a civ website like liquiddota etc?
I hope to God not, that shit kills communities. I wouldn't mind separate website if I didnt have to visit different sites and relog in just to participate in discussions.
I like Civ as much as the next guy and I would be interested in entertaining and deep commentary, but a game where a single match can take many hours doesn't work as an esport.
Please feel free to pass my challenge along to all the top Civ streamers or Civ V players who are considered the best in the MP community. Just have them send me a message on steam and we can organize the game. I will be around all weekend to play.
added you on steam. Let's play, either Duel or in a 6 player FFA. Feel free to come on the NQ teamspeak most games for civ 6 are either organized there or in NQ chat
On October 22 2016 17:38 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote: We are about as far from april first as we can be but I still had to check the date
Competitive Civ, next we will pick up a Settlers of Catan team.
Say what you want but with the expansion pack with knights and cities, Settlers is an incredibly deep game for how little bookkeeping it needs in the paper form
On October 22 2016 17:38 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote: We are about as far from april first as we can be but I still had to check the date
Competitive Civ, next we will pick up a Settlers of Catan team.
Say what you want but with the expansion pack with knights and cities, Settlers is an incredibly deep game for how little bookkeeping it needs in the paper form
Oh, I like Settlers of Catan and Civ. I just don't see it getting an audience
Also from the article "MrGameTheory currently plays for Team Liquid's Clash Royale team" Wait what? When did this happen
I love that TL is expanding but I don't see Civ catching on as a lucrative competitive e-sport. In an industry large player base, flashy plays, and shorter games dominate, the length and depth of your standard Civ game won't be able to appeal to a large audience, I feel.
Wait, isn't Civ VI still a turn-based game? We're not exactly talking chess or go kind of turn-based either. Can we somewhat play the turns simultaneously because otherwise it'll truly be a bore to watch.
On October 22 2016 19:13 ZenithM wrote: Wait, isn't Civ VI still a turn-based game? We're not exactly talking chess or go kind of turn-based either. Can we somewhat play the turns simultaneously because otherwise it'll truly be a bore to watch.
i dont know about civ VI but simultanous turns were "the standard" way to play Civ IV
I think you guys are missing the point. If you think that Civ is not a fun game to watch then it just means that it's not for you. I don't think that the point of a competitive scene for Civ is to compete with the esport behemoths, but to appeal to a niche audience (like me).
And for those of you who complain that it's too long: Come on, a BO5 of Lol can take up to 4+ hours. A competitive match of Civ with the new "online" speed will last much shorter than this.
On October 22 2016 19:13 ZenithM wrote: Wait, isn't Civ VI still a turn-based game? We're not exactly talking chess or go kind of turn-based either. Can we somewhat play the turns simultaneously because otherwise it'll truly be a bore to watch.
i dont know about civ VI but simultanous turns were "the standard" way to play Civ IV
and it still took weeks to finish a single game
Normally you got simultaneosly turns till you are at war with each other and then it is one after another.
But can anyone who actually knows how CIV esports work, tell me what setups are played? Team games? Mapsize? Mapconfig? From stone age to modern age?
I still miss a game of CIV II (that's how old I am) and no version came close to it in terms of entertainment for me, but I haven't seen the latest versions to be fair.
..and yeah, unless something has changed dramatically with how the game is played, a match could go on for many days, no? Which isn't necessarily a problem. We just have to learn to follow a game over days, much like cricket fans I suppose?
On October 22 2016 19:16 wilio1 wrote: And for those of you who complain that it's too long: Come on, a BO5 of Lol can take up to 4+ hours. A competitive match of Civ with the new "online" speed will last much shorter than this.
You are right about Bo3-Bo5-Bo7 format. (In AoE2 final matches playing Bo11 regularly) but still you are missing a point. These are completely independent matches. Every round matters, every round plays differently, every round has its own story.
On October 22 2016 20:54 BaneRiders wrote: I still miss a game of CIV II (that's how old I am) and no version came close to it in terms of entertainment for me, but I haven't seen the latest versions to be fair.
..and yeah, unless something has changed dramatically with how the game is played, a match could go on for many days, no? Which isn't necessarily a problem. We just have to learn to follow a game over days, much like cricket fans I suppose?
I would about to write exactly the same thing, civ 2 is the broodwar of the franchise, sorta
On October 22 2016 08:16 TwiggyWan wrote: So are people expected to sit and watch a marathon game for 20+ hours? How can it be esport if it can't be watched?
On October 22 2016 11:29 Manit0u wrote: Civ IV was so much better than Civ V...
I'm hesitant to pick up Civ VI just now.
Rule of Civ games: Always wait for the first expansion.
I dunno, I thought Civ II and Civ III were great right out of the box. Civ IV was also pretty good, but buggy for me. But Civ V didn't grab me at all somehow.
On October 22 2016 22:50 Rollora wrote: Goddamnit, I finally got rid of my starcraft addiction and now this....?
Oh and I am so hyped for a 12hr livestream of a 1v1 commented by Tastosis. Are there cheese builds in Civ?
I have no idea about anything but Civ1 which had only play against PC, but there was a lot of space for "bullshit" strategies. I would generally rush for Railroad and build attack railways straight into enemy cities so that I wouldn't lose happiness in my republic having army units in the field. Just build and attack in the same round, capture city, re-assign the unit to that city.
On October 22 2016 17:38 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote: We are about as far from april first as we can be but I still had to check the date
Competitive Civ, next we will pick up a Settlers of Catan team.
Say what you want but with the expansion pack with knights and cities, Settlers is an incredibly deep game for how little bookkeeping it needs in the paper form
Oh, I like Settlers of Catan and Civ. I just don't see it getting an audience
Also from the article "MrGameTheory currently plays for Team Liquid's Clash Royale team" Wait what? When did this happen
Yeah I commented on that also.
Liquid'ClashRoyale? I'm a bit amazed at what franchise TL ventures into.
On October 22 2016 15:20 ExO_ wrote: added you on steam. Let's play, either Duel or in a 6 player FFA. Feel free to come on the NQ teamspeak most games for civ 6 are either organized there or in NQ chat
I'm all for trying civ as an esport but this mrgametheory guy needs to suck his own dick a little less and BM the popular/good streamers/players a little less as well. He's been causing quite a stir in the civ community and made himself look quite bad towards the large majority of civ players, who do not know him.
On October 23 2016 09:57 Achaian wrote: I'm all for trying civ as an esport but this mrgametheory guy needs to suck his own dick a little less and BM the popular/good streamers/players a little less as well. He's been causing quite a stir in the civ community and made himself look quite bad towards the large majority of civ players, who do not know him.
On October 22 2016 11:29 Manit0u wrote: Civ IV was so much better than Civ V...
I'm hesitant to pick up Civ VI just now.
You should be. I bought it yesterday and played all day. It feels like it is missing a lot of stuff, up to and including teams in multiplayer. If I had known that, I wouldnt have bought it.
I had play MrGameTheory in the old days. He was indeed holding no1 position in one monent of time in both civplayers.com and civplayers.ru (in duels only). I am sure you can find his stats on both websites.
On October 24 2016 04:24 MrGameTheory wrote: Hello world. I am now accepting ladder matches on http://civplayers.com/ - Message me on steam if you are up for a duel :D
On October 23 2016 23:34 Titusmaster6 wrote: Ugh I'm the biggest Civ fan ever but how can there be a competitive scene with so much variability in the game?
I checked the calendar when I saw this. This sounded like an April's Fool joke, honestly.
But, hey, if it goes it goes. A different type of competitive eSport is always cool to see. Granted, this doesn't strike me as having a huge potential.
On October 24 2016 04:05 Gorsameth wrote: I dont see a game take off as an esport when a single map is 3 hours long.
Games like LoL and Dota with 40min games are already pushing it.
If you're decent at it you can finish the game on marathon speed (slowest) in about two hours time. You won't get a super optimal score or anything like that but you'll win against the AI. (that was in CIV at least, didn't like CV as much so I don't have experience in that)
If players took their turns simultaneously I can see the game not going past 1 hour mark on small map and faster speed.
I have put +3k hours into Civ5 and watched Arvius and Baba's stream frequently in the past, so I'm really excited about this. Can't find the time to learn about Civ6 yet tho, it's so different :D
I've played the Civilisation series from the very beginning- all awesome games. That being said I don't think I can take a strategy game that doesn't have equal starts serious as a competitive game and I sincerely doubt it's viability as an esport with the games taking so long.
Isn't hearthstone also considered an esport? Afaik there's several cards with a shitton of RNG to them. Poker also has a huge luck/random factor to it.
Even if Civ6 starting locations are not balanced, you can always mod it like the NQ group did with Civ5 and make it fairly more balanced.
Randomness doesn't matter in terms of competition. You need to be able to plan out for several different possibilities accordingly, that's what competition is.
On October 24 2016 23:57 Incognoto wrote: Randomness doesn't matter in terms of competition. You need to be able to plan out for several different possibilities accordingly, that's what competition is.
That depends on the level of randomness, doesn't it? If the starting locations were so imbalanced that they basically decide the outcome of a game, it would be difficult to take that competition seriously
On October 24 2016 23:57 Incognoto wrote: Randomness doesn't matter in terms of competition. You need to be able to plan out for several different possibilities accordingly, that's what competition is.
That depends on the level of randomness, doesn't it? If the starting locations were so imbalanced that they basically decide the outcome of a game, it would be difficult to take that competition seriously
Meanwhile poker tournament is still a thing, and fantasy sports study showing to the contrary belief, the amount of luck involved is small compared to amount of skill (you would lose money unless you are top percentile in term of skill), It is more of a question how to take account of the luck factor in the format.
On October 24 2016 23:57 Incognoto wrote: Randomness doesn't matter in terms of competition. You need to be able to plan out for several different possibilities accordingly, that's what competition is.
That depends on the level of randomness, doesn't it? If the starting locations were so imbalanced that they basically decide the outcome of a game, it would be difficult to take that competition seriously
Meanwhile poker tournament is still a thing, and fantasy sports study showing to the contrary belief, the amount of luck involved is small compared to amount of skill (you would lose money unless you are top percentile in term of skill), It is more of a question how to take account of the luck factor in the format.
I don't think its about the level of randomness, but the management of luck that determines skill.
Poker players have many ways to manage luck, and that oftentimes determines champions.
The question is can a Civ 6 player manage the luck inherent within the game? If luck isn't manageable, than RNG becomes too much of a determining factor and the game doesn't feel satisfying and can't succeed as an esport.
On October 24 2016 23:57 Incognoto wrote: Randomness doesn't matter in terms of competition. You need to be able to plan out for several different possibilities accordingly, that's what competition is.
That depends on the level of randomness, doesn't it? If the starting locations were so imbalanced that they basically decide the outcome of a game, it would be difficult to take that competition seriously
Meanwhile poker tournament is still a thing, and fantasy sports study showing to the contrary belief, the amount of luck involved is small compared to amount of skill (you would lose money unless you are top percentile in term of skill), It is more of a question how to take account of the luck factor in the format.
The difference is the "luck" is reset hand to hand. If at the start of the session the dealer tells you "you have a 50% less chance of getting an Ace this tourney" nobody would watch/play. That's what bad starting positions feel like.
On October 24 2016 23:57 Incognoto wrote: Randomness doesn't matter in terms of competition. You need to be able to plan out for several different possibilities accordingly, that's what competition is.
That depends on the level of randomness, doesn't it? If the starting locations were so imbalanced that they basically decide the outcome of a game, it would be difficult to take that competition seriously
Meanwhile poker tournament is still a thing, and fantasy sports study showing to the contrary belief, the amount of luck involved is small compared to amount of skill (you would lose money unless you are top percentile in term of skill), It is more of a question how to take account of the luck factor in the format.
The difference is the "luck" is reset hand to hand. If at the start of the session the dealer tells you "you have a 50% less chance of getting an Ace this tourney" nobody would watch/play. That's what bad starting positions feel like.
But is a bad starting position manageable? Your poker example of getting an Ace is a bit extreme.
In Civ 6, is a bad starting position so detrimental that the player would lose all the time?
Luck is part of every game, the question isn't how it affects the game, its about what tools are the players given to manage luck?
On October 24 2016 23:57 Incognoto wrote: Randomness doesn't matter in terms of competition. You need to be able to plan out for several different possibilities accordingly, that's what competition is.
That depends on the level of randomness, doesn't it? If the starting locations were so imbalanced that they basically decide the outcome of a game, it would be difficult to take that competition seriously
Meanwhile poker tournament is still a thing, and fantasy sports study showing to the contrary belief, the amount of luck involved is small compared to amount of skill (you would lose money unless you are top percentile in term of skill), It is more of a question how to take account of the luck factor in the format.
The difference is the "luck" is reset hand to hand. If at the start of the session the dealer tells you "you have a 50% less chance of getting an Ace this tourney" nobody would watch/play. That's what bad starting positions feel like.
But is a bad starting position manageable? Your poker example of getting an Ace is a bit extreme.
In Civ 6, is a bad starting position so detrimental that the player would lose all the time?
Luck is part of every game, the question isn't how it affects the game, its about what tools are the players given to manage luck?
Usually it is manageable. It's rare, but some starting positions are simply too bad. The variation is too big, but most starts are playable. Taking about Civ V here, i don't think its the case, but maybe Civ VI is different.
The main problem is that games are long, so its really frustrating to get a bad start. Vs AI most people just leave and start again. A competitive setting might be frustrating too.
However, map settings can be adjusted (or modded) to be more fair.
On October 22 2016 06:21 lestye wrote: As exciting as this is, I wish I knew more about it. I don't know much about the scene, err I didn't even know there was a scene! Does anyone have any literature about the history of competitive Civ?
I haven't looked at the Civ VI thread, but I hope we can have 50 pages of debate on whether removing tile stacking was a good or bad idea like how we debate MBS in other parts of TL.
Last Civilization Clan Championship Cup tournament was number 55 i guess, but don't quote me for it. Tournament happened every six weeks, so it lasted about six years. Edit: actually, for a while Civ 3 and Civ 4 tournaments were happening at the same time, so i guess it was a little bit less than six years total. Maybe five?
When i was playing it it was something like 9 to 11 different "disciplines" (map, age and rule settings), and about 8 clans competing. I think it started back in Civ 3. Tournament took about 60 hours to complete, and it wasn't an easy thing, given that people all over the world from the different timezones were competing in it.
look at age of empires 2 how to deal with random maps.
Add 1 restart for a player during first X turns per BO3 or something, they just type "re" and its a restart no questions asked. And you add rules that trigger a restart by ref if the affected player agrees to it, in age of empires that would for example be bugged gold spots.
also civ 6 has map seeds, so refs could roll a fair map in advance, reducing the amound of restarts visible to spectators.
Would not be surprised if they end up doing map seeds/made maps with set starting positions and resource balances to make things more "fair." Hopefully doesn't end up as stagnant/identical across maps as SC2/BW though (which had more reasons to be uniform between matches than Civ).
On October 25 2016 22:22 LaNague wrote: look at age of empires 2 how to deal with random maps.
Add 1 restart for a player during first X turns per BO3 or something, they just type "re" and its a restart no questions asked. And you add rules that trigger a restart by ref if the affected player agrees to it, in age of empires that would for example be bugged gold spots.
also civ 6 has map seeds, so refs could roll a fair map in advance, reducing the amound of restarts visible to spectators.
You could do that system and only show the game after the first X turns... kinda like how WC3 match replays often start after the initial few seconds have already elapsed. Nothing much happens in the first 3 turns of a Civ game either.
On October 25 2016 22:22 LaNague wrote: look at age of empires 2 how to deal with random maps.
Add 1 restart for a player during first X turns per BO3 or something, they just type "re" and its a restart no questions asked. And you add rules that trigger a restart by ref if the affected player agrees to it, in age of empires that would for example be bugged gold spots.
also civ 6 has map seeds, so refs could roll a fair map in advance, reducing the amound of restarts visible to spectators.
You could do that system and only show the game after the first X turns... kinda like how WC3 match replays often start after the initial few seconds have already elapsed. Nothing much happens in the first 3 turns of a Civ game either.
Goodie huts get popped and barbarian swarms start!
On October 26 2016 00:58 Khalum wrote: You can delete your first settler on turn one!
Interesting. Delete settler, conquer neighbouring civ with single warrior, win anyway!
Anybody remember that AoE 1 scenario where you got one priest and the whole map was divided between these two enemy factions and it was like, good luck! Go convert dudes! Happy wololoing!
On October 25 2016 23:03 TheTenthDoc wrote: Would not be surprised if they end up doing map seeds/made maps with set starting positions and resource balances to make things more "fair." Hopefully doesn't end up as stagnant/identical across maps as SC2/BW though (which had more reasons to be uniform between matches than Civ).
An interesting notion, but I think making Civ maps will be a lot more difficult than an SC2/BW map.
For one thing, resources are everywhere and so many various types that balancing maps just around resources would be a tremendous endeavour.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not against it. I just feel making a Civ 6 map would require a small team with many many iterations and testing.
However, for touranment purposes, I think made maps is the way to go to reduce the chances of wildly imbalanced starting positions that automated maps might design.
On October 25 2016 23:03 TheTenthDoc wrote: Would not be surprised if they end up doing map seeds/made maps with set starting positions and resource balances to make things more "fair." Hopefully doesn't end up as stagnant/identical across maps as SC2/BW though (which had more reasons to be uniform between matches than Civ).
An interesting notion, but I think making Civ maps will be a lot more difficult than an SC2/BW map.
For one thing, resources are everywhere and so many various types that balancing maps just around resources would be a tremendous endeavour.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not against it. I just feel making a Civ 6 map would require a small team with many many iterations and testing.
However, for touranment purposes, I think made maps is the way to go to reduce the chances of wildly imbalanced starting positions that automated maps might design.
What would be nice is auto-generated mirrored map. It would be even for all players at the start so no complaining about a bad start.
On October 25 2016 23:03 TheTenthDoc wrote: Would not be surprised if they end up doing map seeds/made maps with set starting positions and resource balances to make things more "fair." Hopefully doesn't end up as stagnant/identical across maps as SC2/BW though (which had more reasons to be uniform between matches than Civ).
An interesting notion, but I think making Civ maps will be a lot more difficult than an SC2/BW map.
For one thing, resources are everywhere and so many various types that balancing maps just around resources would be a tremendous endeavour.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not against it. I just feel making a Civ 6 map would require a small team with many many iterations and testing.
However, for touranment purposes, I think made maps is the way to go to reduce the chances of wildly imbalanced starting positions that automated maps might design.
What would be nice is auto-generated mirrored map. It would be even for all players at the start so no complaining about a bad start.
Lack of iron hurts most civs, whereas civs like Rome/Kongo just trolololol unit spam anyway.
On October 25 2016 23:03 TheTenthDoc wrote: Would not be surprised if they end up doing map seeds/made maps with set starting positions and resource balances to make things more "fair." Hopefully doesn't end up as stagnant/identical across maps as SC2/BW though (which had more reasons to be uniform between matches than Civ).
An interesting notion, but I think making Civ maps will be a lot more difficult than an SC2/BW map.
For one thing, resources are everywhere and so many various types that balancing maps just around resources would be a tremendous endeavour.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not against it. I just feel making a Civ 6 map would require a small team with many many iterations and testing.
However, for touranment purposes, I think made maps is the way to go to reduce the chances of wildly imbalanced starting positions that automated maps might design.
What would be nice is auto-generated mirrored map. It would be even for all players at the start so no complaining about a bad start.
Lack of iron hurts most civs, whereas civs like Rome/Kongo just trolololol unit spam anyway.
But i think we are in the realm of manageable bad luck. The thing with Rome is that you can spam legionaries no matter what. If you pick some other civilization, you should never depend on iron. You need an alternate plan and its entirely doable. You can even win a domination game, the real problem is surviving, but you don't need iron for that.
Removing the luck factor is nice, but the importance of exploration should not be removed.
anygameplay videos of MP in a competetive matter or just MP in general? This thread got me interested, perhaps the game itself can to and i might start to play this MP purely.
Looked at some at youtube, i dont understand anything and nothing happens either. Its a slow game isnt it?
On October 26 2016 02:36 Manit0u wrote: What would be nice is auto-generated mirrored map. It would be even for all players at the start so no complaining about a bad start.
Looks like map generator is the same LUA script as it was in Civ 4. So it's easy to make mirror versions of all map types.
On October 26 2016 03:23 Foxxan wrote: anygameplay videos of MP in a competetive matter or just MP in general? This thread got me interested, perhaps the game itself can to and i might start to play this MP purely.
Looked at some at youtube, i dont understand anything and nothing happens either. Its a slow game isnt it?
Yes it's slow, you could probably get faster games by reducing the timer like in Blitz Chess. That would also add more mechanical skill to the game since you'd have a limited time to do potentially a lot of actions.
FilthyRobot is probably the player that uploads the most games to youtube. You can also look at Arvius (twitch.tv/anzleon) for another skilled player.
On another note, has MrGameTheory played in a streamed game yet? (not necessarily on his stream)
On October 24 2016 23:57 Incognoto wrote: Randomness doesn't matter in terms of competition. You need to be able to plan out for several different possibilities accordingly, that's what competition is.
That depends on the level of randomness, doesn't it? If the starting locations were so imbalanced that they basically decide the outcome of a game, it would be difficult to take that competition seriously
Meanwhile poker tournament is still a thing, and fantasy sports study showing to the contrary belief, the amount of luck involved is small compared to amount of skill (you would lose money unless you are top percentile in term of skill), It is more of a question how to take account of the luck factor in the format.
The comparison to poker is frankly ridiculous. Over the course of a tournament poker players will play hundreds or even thousands of hands. This is why variance cancels itself out to some degree and the more skilled players are more likely to go far. With Civ each "hand" takes several hours and while you can absolutely be dealt a "game over" in poker (at least in no limit) for Civ it's just not feasible to have people watch a competitive game where one player starts with a worker less, so to speak. I'm sure there are ways to drastically reduce the luck factor, but that still leaves a huge question mark over the insanely long/slow games and if people would actually watch.
If someone has any stream viewer numbers for the last big Carlsen/Anand match I'd be very interested. IIRC they weren't that impressive considering Chess is a world wide accepted and popular sport with a several centuries long tradition.
On October 24 2016 23:57 Incognoto wrote: Randomness doesn't matter in terms of competition. You need to be able to plan out for several different possibilities accordingly, that's what competition is.
That depends on the level of randomness, doesn't it? If the starting locations were so imbalanced that they basically decide the outcome of a game, it would be difficult to take that competition seriously
Meanwhile poker tournament is still a thing, and fantasy sports study showing to the contrary belief, the amount of luck involved is small compared to amount of skill (you would lose money unless you are top percentile in term of skill), It is more of a question how to take account of the luck factor in the format.
The comparison to poker is frankly ridiculous. Over the course of a tournament poker players will play hundreds or even thousands of hands. This is why variance cancels itself out to some degree and the more skilled players are more likely to go far. With Civ each "hand" takes several hours and while you can absolutely be dealt a "game over" in poker (at least in no limit) for Civ it's just not feasible to have people watch a competitive game where one player starts with a worker less, so to speak. I'm sure there are ways to drastically reduce the luck factor, but that still leaves a huge question mark over the insanely long/slow games and if people would actually watch.
If someone has any stream viewer numbers for the last big Carlsen/Anand match I'd be very interested. IIRC they weren't that impressive considering Chess is a world wide accepted and popular sport with a several centuries long tradition.
Most people wait for the game sheets to get posted for chess, or for their favorite GM analysis to be finished and posted elsewhere. It's a hard game to digest live to say the least.
On October 25 2016 23:03 TheTenthDoc wrote: Would not be surprised if they end up doing map seeds/made maps with set starting positions and resource balances to make things more "fair." Hopefully doesn't end up as stagnant/identical across maps as SC2/BW though (which had more reasons to be uniform between matches than Civ).
An interesting notion, but I think making Civ maps will be a lot more difficult than an SC2/BW map.
For one thing, resources are everywhere and so many various types that balancing maps just around resources would be a tremendous endeavour.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not against it. I just feel making a Civ 6 map would require a small team with many many iterations and testing.
However, for touranment purposes, I think made maps is the way to go to reduce the chances of wildly imbalanced starting positions that automated maps might design.
There was a map editor in civ 2 amd the basic concepts of terrain haven't really changed much. I doubt we'll get one for civ 6 but it would definitely work to balance things out. I am picturing mirror maps with set starting locations, then the map maker can do things like create spots for 2nd and 3rd cities (expansions) where the player has to choose between different resources based on expansion pattern.
Mrgametheory loses two games to arvius, then changes the map setting to 6 players without telling him. Arvius no longer wants to play because two players playing on a six player map is silly. This on top of Exo beating gametheory a few days ago. Catch all the drama and people making fools of themselves live!
It seems the general consensus among the NQ community is that mrgametheory is full of shit. That's detrimental, to say the least, to growing civ as an esport if he wants to be on top of it in any fashion. I repeat my earlier suggestion that mrgametheory re-evaluate his attitude to how he interacts with other players, as it is causing him quite a lot of negative animus in the community.
Anyone have butter? I enjoy my popcorn buttered during the drama.
edit: Just so I don't get a warning, I will add a bit of meat to my content, and maybe fuel to the fire.
MGT can do whatever he pleases, and he doesn't have to act like he owes anyone anything. With that being said, of course he will alienate a sub-community (ie. NQ) with his actions. However, it remains to be seen how this affects his career and image.
I've known TL to usually recruit players that show respect, but I also didn't know TL had a Clash Royale team, so what the fuck do I know.
Anyways, from what it sounds like, MGT is shaping up to be the Idra of SC2. Or Naniwa. Or maybe Lilbow, but first he needs to announce his preparation for Civ 7.
Honestly, I don't mind if he acts like a douchebag. I've yet to be invested in this scene. I'm just keeping an eye on it to see how things develop.
last edit: I watched Anzleon's stream, and he seems pretty cool. Not overly entertaining, but not a complete bore. He is educational, so I would recommend his stream to anyone that wants to learn a bit more about the game.
very last edit I promise: Trump is streaming Civ 6, and he is also educational. However, I find him to be mostly boring, but very good at explaining his actions/choices.
Mr Game Theory is a complete fruad. No one in the nq group has ever heard of this guy. He hasn't played civ 5 in 5 years. He doesn't even stream his games. The achievements he claims he has are all from websites no one has used in forever. The NQ group doesn't even have rankings because they found that rankings in civ just did not work because people would unfairly team up on people and it just made for an unfair gameplay experience. Maybe he was good a long time ago, but they guy only has like 600 hours of civilization 5 gameplay when others have upwards of 4000 +. How can you say he is a legend when he hardly plays the game?
Anyone who watched MGT theory play against Arvius would know that not only is he not one of the best players, he makes rather noobish mistakes. The guy tried to rush someone with warriors. He spammed catapults. These things are traits of a horrible player, not a good one. And not only is he a bad player, he has a horrible attitude and tries to cheat people. Today he set a duel match to a 6 player landmass thinking Arvius woudn't notice and it worked. Who the hell plays a duel on a 6 player landmass? It's unplayable and he only did it to try to get an advantage being able to settle more land without arvius noticing the map is larger.
TL did a absolutely horrible job vetting this guy. There are many civ streamers you could have chosen to be the leader of team liquid's civ team. MGT isn't even one of them. He doesn't even stream. He hasn't played civ in 5 years until now. He is a charlatan with an ego the size of Donald Trump's. He cheats people. He has a horrible attitude. He quits when he is about to lose making excuses like, "I've gotta go to sleep" And worse of all, he isn't even good at the game. Why would you want a guy who isn't even good to be the leader of a competitive team? TL is supposed to be the New England Patriots not the Cleveland Browns.
Arvius is most likely the best. Have been watching his civ 5 stream for a long time. Guy is just a beast at everything turn based. He is 100% the best xcom single player. Also would make a good leader.
On October 26 2016 16:34 Salteador Neo wrote: Arvius is most likely the best. Have been watching his civ 5 stream for a long time. Guy is just a beast at everything turn based. He is 100% the best xcom single player. Also would make a good leader.
I would say FiltyRobots is better but it's hard to argue on the skill in Civiliztion
but I also agree that MGT is currentyl pretty far from being a great player.
I understand Anzleon's Twitch stream just poured in after he just conceded. Welcome guys. Anzleon won his first duel with me, was caught breaking the rules in his second duel when he deleted a unit when he was -14 gold with 0 gold in reserve (https://www.twitch.tv/anzleon/v/97033165 Look at 1:34.22) and he just lost his 3rd duel just now. In the last duel Anzleon agreed to play a larger map so that there could be more building and he had the ability to review all settings before the match started. It is fine and fun to support your favorite streamer, but try to keep the trolling to a minimum. We are here to have a good time and to try and expand competitive civilization. We are only in our 5th day of Civilization VI and there will be plenty of great games to come. Anzleon has 7,000 hours of Civ V and is an amazing player. I look forward to more matches with Anzleon, NQ players, and other passionate players so stay tuned because we are only getting started.
On October 26 2016 16:34 Salteador Neo wrote: Arvius is most likely the best. Have been watching his civ 5 stream for a long time. Guy is just a beast at everything turn based. He is 100% the best xcom single player. Also would make a good leader.
I would say FiltyRobots is better but it's hard to argue on the skill in Civiliztion
but I also agree that MGT is currentyl pretty far from being a great player.
I agree its super hard to tell who is better but then again i cant imagine FilthyRobot being better because Arv is just too damn involved. He studies the games until he trivializes them, like he did with xcom long war. He is an aggro player but knows when to simcity too, and always keeps tabs on whats going on with the other players. Then again im biased because FR is too whiny for me so I stopped watching him. Always complains and never accepts his mistakes. All around solid player tho. My second fav is Baba. Such a nice guy and still with a casual attitude towards about a game he has more than 4-5k hours in. His style is way different too, he is more passive/simcity/wonderwhoring. Probably wins even more often than Arv. Yoorus probably fights with FR for the third best player spot in my head. Super aggro player for sure. I think he is russian or very close so poker players can probably relate heh.
On October 26 2016 16:34 Salteador Neo wrote: Arvius is most likely the best. Have been watching his civ 5 stream for a long time. Guy is just a beast at everything turn based. He is 100% the best xcom single player. Also would make a good leader.
I would say FiltyRobots is better but it's hard to argue on the skill in Civiliztion
but I also agree that MGT is currentyl pretty far from being a great player.
I agree its super hard to tell who is better but then again i cant imagine FilthyRobot being better because Arv is just too damn involved. He studies the games until he trivializes them, like he did with xcom long war. He is an aggro player but knows when to simcity too, and always keeps tabs on whats going on with the other players. Then again im biased because FR is too whiny for me so I stopped watching him. Always complains and never accepts his mistakes. All around solid player tho. My second fav is Baba. Such a nice guy and still with a casual attitude towards about a game he has more than 4-5k hours in. His style is way different too, he is more passive/simcity/wonderwhoring. Probably wins even more often than Arv. Yoorus probably fights with FR for the third best player spot in my head. Super aggro player for sure. I think he is russian or very close so poker players can probably relate heh.
On October 26 2016 16:57 MrGameTheory wrote: I understand Anzleon's Twitch stream just poured in after he just conceded. Welcome guys. Anzleon won his first duel with me, was caught breaking the rules in his second duel when he deleted a unit when he was -14 gold with 0 gold in reserve (https://www.twitch.tv/anzleon/v/97033165 Look at 1:34.22) and he just lost his 3rd duel just now. In the last duel Anzleon agreed to play a larger map so that there could be more building and he had the ability to review all settings before the match started. It is fine and fun to support your favorite streamer, but try to keep the trolling to a minimum. We are here to have a good time and to try and expand competitive civilization. We are only in our 5th day of Civilization VI and there will be plenty of great games to come. Anzleon has 7,000 hours of Civ V and is an amazing player. I look forward to more matches with Anzleon, NQ players, and other passionate players so stay tuned because we are only getting started.
Why are you guys not playing on NQ fruity mod? It prevents any rules issues.
On October 26 2016 16:57 MrGameTheory wrote: I understand Anzleon's Twitch stream just poured in after he just conceded. Welcome guys. Anzleon won his first duel with me, was caught breaking the rules in his second duel when he deleted a unit when he was -14 gold with 0 gold in reserve (https://www.twitch.tv/anzleon/v/97033165 Look at 1:34.22) and he just lost his 3rd duel just now. In the last duel Anzleon agreed to play a larger map so that there could be more building and he had the ability to review all settings before the match started. It is fine and fun to support your favorite streamer, but try to keep the trolling to a minimum. We are here to have a good time and to try and expand competitive civilization. We are only in our 5th day of Civilization VI and there will be plenty of great games to come. Anzleon has 7,000 hours of Civ V and is an amazing player. I look forward to more matches with Anzleon, NQ players, and other passionate players so stay tuned because we are only getting started.
If they were an official ladder games, Anzleon would have had one win and two technical defeats. Unfortunately, they weren't ladder games, so it's two wins and one cancelled game
And seriously, who are you and where you put a real MrGameTheory? Do you use polyjuice potion, and keep the real one in a closet, or something? You were like the biggest proponent of trolling with your cocky attitude in entire Civ 4 community (it was almost real, someone actually believed it's your real personality). And now you're all about "try to keep the trolling to a minimum" and boring stuff like that. Where is all that old fun stuff? You're getting old, man I really enjoyed reading your posts
On October 26 2016 14:43 Hidious wrote: Mr Game Theory is a complete fruad. No one in the nq group has ever heard of this guy. He hasn't played civ 5 in 5 years. He doesn't even stream his games. The achievements he claims he has are all from websites no one has used in forever. The NQ group doesn't even have rankings because they found that rankings in civ just did not work because people would unfairly team up on people and it just made for an unfair gameplay experience. Maybe he was good a long time ago, but they guy only has like 600 hours of civilization 5 gameplay when others have upwards of 4000 +. How can you say he is a legend when he hardly plays the game?
He was a monster in Civ 4. And there was a ladder and a regular tournament back then, see my post #173. So Civ 5 stuff is not even competitive, it doesn't count.
Achievements did happen as far as i know. Actually, noone else even considered such a ridiculous things as playing 1v5 vs ladder players (even if it was a bit easier than it sounds given team mechanics of Civ 4, it is really ridiculous thing to try, let alone actually win it). And MrGameTheory was winning against other top duelists. I didn't like duels, so i don't think we played, or at least i don't remember it (i played less than 10 duels in Civ 4 anyway...), but i know he got some wins against all top ones. Not sure about exact win/losses though.
Civ 5 was a joke anyway, so playing 600 hours... Wow, that's an achievement by itself, i played only 171 hours. And zero hours MP.
Anyone who watched MGT theory play against Arvius would know that not only is he not one of the best players, he makes rather noobish mistakes. The guy tried to rush someone with warriors.
Cockiness and lack of preparation. Totally what i would have expected from MrGameTheory. He thought he'll autowin by default
And that's a lack of knowledge. Given that game is released several days ago, it's kinda not really surprising, no?
Today he set a duel match to a 6 player landmass thinking Arvius woudn't notice and it worked. Who the hell plays a duel on a 6 player landmass? It's unplayable and he only did it to try to get an advantage being able to settle more land without arvius noticing the map is larger.
Well, it is totally different. If it was a serious match, i would have called it quits (for preparation time) in a starting screen because it does require different strategy, and that requires time...
But i checked a stream, Arvius's mouse cursor was over "small" map size like 3 times when he obviously was checking settings. I guess this time Arvius got cocky and didn't think he will need to plan the strategy so to defeat MrGameTheory. And btw MrGameTheory is known for some crazy fast ICS, so that's exactly what he did this time. Again, no surprises here.
On October 26 2016 14:43 Hidious wrote:Why would you want a guy who isn't even good to be the leader of a competitive team? TL is supposed to be the New England Patriots not the Cleveland Browns.
Actually, MrGameTheory was a leader of a good competitive team in Civ 4.
On October 27 2016 10:44 lestye wrote: Can someone link some sort of standings or grids that MATTER before we call out people as frauds or actually good at the game?
Results of international tournaments aren't good enough for you? I already gave you links.
Duels are duels. Cton is FFA with banned diplomacy. Ironman is like Cton but without a time limit IIRC. And MrGameTheory mostly competed in these events, usually reserved for a strongest duelists (other matches were team games IIRC).
And he was a leader of his clan too in this clan tournament.
On October 26 2016 00:58 Khalum wrote: You can delete your first settler on turn one!
Interesting. Delete settler, conquer neighbouring civ with single warrior, win anyway!
Anybody remember that AoE 1 scenario where you got one priest and the whole map was divided between these two enemy factions and it was like, good luck! Go convert dudes! Happy wololoing!
I don't think the game will succeed as an e-sport because Firaxis doesn't give a shit about bugs, exploits, or anything resembling decent balance. It came out almost two weeks ago and there are no signs they will even attempt to make the game decent for multiplayer.
On October 30 2016 23:37 goswser wrote: I don't think the game will succeed as an e-sport because Firaxis doesn't give a shit about bugs, exploits, or anything resembling decent balance. It came out almost two weeks ago and there are no signs they will even attempt to make the game decent for multiplayer.
Of all the reasons Civ isn't going to work as an esport, bugs and things like that are at the bottom of the list I think.
OK so I saw some of that game on live stream, at least I think I saw it, and there was no way I could watch 2 hours and 40 minutes of Civ 6. I caught that game halfway through, I think over an hour, and it was getting interesting to a certain degree, but I watched maybe 30 minutes.
The number of decisions really starts to add up, and there is not enough time to make them. That makes for some exciting spectatorship. For 6 players to go for over 2 hours is ridiculous, and even worse to expect anyone to watch it.
On October 29th, Team Liquid will announce two additions to the Civilization VI roster. Our choices will consist of players who have consistently demonstrated an impressive understanding of the strategic elements required to dominate in this game. On November 19th, Team Liquid will begin hosting a series of grueling tournaments in an attempt to find the most exceptional players in the community. Please stay tuned for additional details on this epic Civilization challenge.
I watched both of Trump's Russia Multiplayer episodes, but the second one I watched the whole thing on 2x speed and skipping forward through some parts. Diplomacy and subversion are clearly important skills in multiplayer FFA.
I could see someone editing down a game from 2+ hours into nice 30 minute to an hour blocks for people to watch being successful. there has to be a bunch of garbage time where people arn't doing anything important or are running through builds that can be condensed a bit.
On November 03 2016 05:06 Sermokala wrote: I could see someone editing down a game from 2+ hours into nice 30 minute to an hour blocks for people to watch being successful. there has to be a bunch of garbage time where people arn't doing anything important or are running through builds that can be condensed a bit.
Yep that's how I can see Civ as a multiplayer working. Not live matches but rebroadcasts of a ~30min per game summarizing what happened
On October 29th, Team Liquid will announce two additions to the Civilization VI roster. Our choices will consist of players who have consistently demonstrated an impressive understanding of the strategic elements required to dominate in this game. On November 19th, Team Liquid will begin hosting a series of grueling tournaments in an attempt to find the most exceptional players in the community. Please stay tuned for additional details on this epic Civilization challenge.
So how does MrGameTheory have #1 ranks on Civ 4 and Civ 5 but only 647 hours in Civ 4 and 615 hours in Civ 5? It's on his Steam profile (Google MrGameTheory; it's the first link that pops up)... he hasn't won a non-scenario game on Deity yet either.
And how does he have "the records for most 1v2, 1v3, 1v4, and 1v5 ladder victories in Civilization IV" with only 647 hours into the game? And how has he "completed hundreds of the top games on every platform" with only this many hours?
We began working with the team behind the popular Fruity MOD to develop a Blitz MOD and competitive map. We are going to release the new MOD/MAP in the next couple of weeks. We are then going to host a cash prize tournament shortly after the release. Since there was no set team play available we are taking a little extra time before we announce the new Civilization additions to the team. We will provide an update on the MOD next week and we are going to allow 10 MOD play testers to try it out before public release. Please send me a message on steam if you are interested in play testing this new MOD.
From the name i would assume that they are going to try for a version of the NQ mod that allows for faster games, as to appeal to more viewers or something? maybe to make the game more 1on1 friendly too or something?
Personally I'm never planning on playing/following all of it but I'm very curious on what it all could look like, just to get a glimpse... I can't imagine competitive matches or even offline events myself, so I need to see it. Announcements please :D
On November 10 2016 01:11 aQuaSC wrote: Personally I'm never planning on playing/following all of it but I'm very curious on what it all could look like, just to get a glimpse... I can't imagine competitive matches or even offline events myself, so I need to see it. Announcements please :D
Did you guys miss the not-so-old post from MrGameTheory? It pretty much says it'll happen, just it'll take a while more because it needs a special mod to be entertaining/fair enough I suppose.
On November 09 2016 12:20 MrGameTheory wrote: We began working with the team behind the popular Fruity MOD to develop a Blitz MOD and competitive map. We are going to release the new MOD/MAP in the next couple of weeks. We are then going to host a cash prize tournament shortly after the release. Since there was no set team play available we are taking a little extra time before we announce the new Civilization additions to the team. We will provide an update on the MOD next week and we are going to allow 10 MOD play testers to try it out before public release. Please send me a message on steam if you are interested in play testing this new MOD.
How long is the average week in TL land? First the initial announcement, then your post... I really get the feeling we have a different understanding of how long a week is.
On November 09 2016 12:20 MrGameTheory wrote: We began working with the team behind the popular Fruity MOD to develop a Blitz MOD and competitive map. We are going to release the new MOD/MAP in the next couple of weeks. We are then going to host a cash prize tournament shortly after the release. Since there was no set team play available we are taking a little extra time before we announce the new Civilization additions to the team. We will provide an update on the MOD next week and we are going to allow 10 MOD play testers to try it out before public release. Please send me a message on steam if you are interested in play testing this new MOD.
How long is the average week in TL land? First the initial announcement, then your post... I really get the feeling we have a different understanding of how long a week is.
i mean he said a couple of weeks, which is 14 days, so really it's only been a couple of weeks today. then add the natural time dilation effects of the internet, and i'd say they still have a week before you should getting impatient
LOL 'natural time dilation effects of the internet'
You make it sound like using the Internet can stretch or shrink time.
However, there might be some truth to it, because there are times I've procrastinated on FB/YT/TL which I assumed was only a few minutes, but actually was several hours.
On November 09 2016 12:20 MrGameTheory wrote: We began working with the team behind the popular Fruity MOD to develop a Blitz MOD and competitive map. We are going to release the new MOD/MAP in the next couple of weeks. We are then going to host a cash prize tournament shortly after the release. Since there was no set team play available we are taking a little extra time before we announce the new Civilization additions to the team. We will provide an update on the MOD next week and we are going to allow 10 MOD play testers to try it out before public release. Please send me a message on steam if you are interested in play testing this new MOD.
How long is the average week in TL land? First the initial announcement, then your post... I really get the feeling we have a different understanding of how long a week is.
i mean he said a couple of weeks, which is 14 days, so really it's only been a couple of weeks today. then add the natural time dilation effects of the internet, and i'd say they still have a week before you should getting impatient
He said: "We will provide an update on the MOD next week"
The Liquid Mod is almost complete. We are currently play-testing the second version of the Liquid Mod and should have a final version by next week. We also beat Firaxis to developing a mirror map.
Here are a list of several of the changes in our MOD:
* Anti-Cavalry units (Spearmen, Pikemen) now have +20 vs cavalry (up from +10) * Archers now have 10 melee strength (down from 15) * Chopping jungles, marshes, and forests is at 80% of the normal value. * [Bug Fix] Player-based Global Production Modifiers (like God of the Forge) now only affect YOU globally instead of all players. * Horsemen now have -12 Combat Strength when fighting cities and districts * Farms provide +3 Food * Mines provide +3 Production * Pastures provide +1 Production and +2 Food * Irrigation improvements provide +1 Food and +3 Gold * All Civics cost 25% less Culture to research * All Units available from the Medieval Era and on cost 50% less Production * All Technologies cost 25% less Science to research * Scouts have 15 combat strength (up from 10) * Policy Cards unlocked by researching 'The Enlightenment' Civic (Rationalism, Free Market & Liberalism) now give 5 times their respective bonus. * Walls and Encampments have 50% HP. * 300% Great Person Point Generation for all types of Great People. * Turn Timers are now 30 sec base + 1 sec per unit + 6 sec per city. * All Districts cost 25% less * Temple provides +10 gold +10 faith * Colosseum provides +10 Amenities to city * Amphitheater provides +10 Amenities to city * Art museum provides +10 Amenities to city * Stables provides +50% experience to mounted units built in the city * Barracks provides +50% experience to melee units built in the city * Armory provides +50% experience to all units built in the city * Market provides +10 gold * Library provides +10 beakers * University provides +25 beakers * Workshop provides +10 production * Shrine provides +10 faith * Lighthouse provides +3 gold for each ocean tile used. * Granary provides +10 housing * Water mill provides +5 production * Harbor (and English Royal Navy Dockyard as well) provides +20 gold * Aqueduct provides +10 housing (Roman Bath +10)
LIQUID MAP V1 * Set starting locations. All start locations set to plains hills (required because without it sometimes people were on oasis and sometimes not, which couldn't be mirrored properly). * Removed all advanced options start position, temp, rainfall etc * Added a new advanced option called Rivers. Rivers can either be enabled or disabled, if enabled they will spawn randomly across the whole map (they can't be mirrored currently). * City states removed. * Goody huts disabled. * Barbarians disabled.
This is a Blitz mode version of Civ VI. We are removing several luck factors and dramatically speeding up the game. The Liquid Mirror Map is the shape of a giant Hex with a smaller hex 8x8x8x8x8x8 located in the center. Each civ will spawn on each corner of the small hex. This map is ideal for a 6 person ffa, 3v3, or 1v1. We are also trying to be first to get a stable 3v3 game running.
After the release of the Liquid Mod, we are going to attempt to add several more updates gradually.
Here are just a few of the updates we are gradually making:
Civ IV City Elimination: If a player loses x amount of cities then their entire empire is instantly destroyed Technology or Culture victory if one player on a team has 5-10 more technologies or civics than the highest on the opposite team. Ability to ban 1-3 leaders per game. Spectator Mode where a 7th player can broadcast the game with no fog of war. Balanced leaders: We love the random leader option, but unfortunately, the leaders are not even close to balanced. In attempt to bring back random leaders we are looking to make dramatic changes to the leaders gradually and may even limit the total amount of leaders that are enabled in the MOD. For Example:
Gorgo - Combat victories provide culture equal to 100% of the combat strength Hoplite get + 20 strength if there is at least one adjacent hoplite unit. Acropolis - Citizens yield 10 culture
Gandhi - Satyagraha + 50 faith Varu - 4 movement points - +15 strength Stepwell + 10 food and +2 Housing if adjacent to holy site. +5 food if Adjacent to a farm + 10 faith at Feudalism + 20 food at professional sports
Japan - Hojo Tokimune - Dramatically increase district adjacency bonus to +15 Divine wind - Land units revive +15 combat strength in land tiles adjacent to ocean or lake. Samuri - +15 strength
Russia - Extra territory upon founding cities - Give the full 3 tiles of culture The grand embassy - +25 science + 25 culture Cossack - 75 strength 5 movement 330 production and gold - 5 gold and +10 if fighting in or adjacent to home territory Lavra - Border expands 10 hexs when a great person is expended in holy site.
China - Qin Shi Huang Dynastic Cycle - 85% Eureka and Inspiration 25% charge on speeding production Crouching tiger +15 strength Great wall - +5 gold for each adjacent great wall
Saladin - Starts the game with a great prophet +25 science for each foreign city with religion Righteousness of the faith - 50% enhanced Mamluk - 4 movement 65 melee strength 180 production Madrasa - + 25 science
Teddy Roosevelt - Founding fathers - Earn legacy bonuses in 85% the usual time Roosevelt Corollary - Units receive +5 combat strength +25 appeal to all tiles in a city with a national park Rough Rider +25 strength Film studio +250 tourism P=51 Mustang - +40 attack against fighter aircraft
Trajan - All Roads lead to Rome - +25 gold Legion + Chops all trees and jungle Bath and Aqueduct - + 10 housing + 3 amenity
We are allowing an additional 5-6 play-testers a chance to test out the Mod/Map so if you are interested then feel free to send me a message on steam. https://steamcommunity.com/id/MrGameTheory
Because we are making several dramatic changes we will be gradually making additional balance changes as we progress through the play-testing, but we are looking at average games that are 25-50 minutes in length :D
And then the ultimate goal is to some how, some way, create a single standard esport setting and build a rank system into the MOD
On December 02 2016 22:53 disformation wrote: you don't just go and make a game changing mod and ensure that it is fairly balanced as well and fun to watch on top of that overnight.
still not sure if overly ambitious and if it will be fun to watch, but:
The original announcement didn't even mention creating a mod, but I'm not asking for overnight just something close to the times that TL gave us or a more official update on what is going on.
On December 02 2016 22:53 disformation wrote: you don't just go and make a game changing mod and ensure that it is fairly balanced as well and fun to watch on top of that overnight.
still not sure if overly ambitious and if it will be fun to watch, but:
The original announcement didn't even mention creating a mod, but I'm not asking for overnight just something close to the times that TL gave us or a more official update on what is going on.
It's pretty much what most people suspected: when you have to rebuild the game in order to have a chance at a somewhat interesting spectator experience, the game might just not be esport material. I'd really be curious who thought this would be a good move, and why.
Two months since the initial announcement. You know TL, it's a matter of both professionalism and common courtesy to give an update if a project is heavily delayed or even fails. You don't just remain silent and hope everyone has forgotten.
On December 23 2016 23:44 Scorch wrote: Two months since the initial announcement. You know TL, it's a matter of both professionalism and common courtesy to give an update if a project is heavily delayed or even fails. You don't just remain silent and hope everyone has forgotten.
Wow it hasn't hit me until you said it but it's actually been two months... This whole development is really un-TL like. Hopefully there will be an update from the brass.
On December 23 2016 23:44 Scorch wrote: Two months since the initial announcement. You know TL, it's a matter of both professionalism and common courtesy to give an update if a project is heavily delayed or even fails. You don't just remain silent and hope everyone has forgotten.
On January 15 2017 05:09 Ansibled wrote: Eventually someone will say something.
Pretty optimistic at this point. Like, as if it is hard to write a comment here or something similar. People surely won't be satisfied if it's just another "we expect it to be done in 2 weeks", but it'd be better than nothing.
I'd be interested to read some news about it. Maybe some streamed and commented showmatches could be interesting.
What I disliked about Civ5 multiplayer is the mixture of turn-based and APM based. It sounds like a joke, but the battles are resolved simultaneous and so units can kill/damage other units before they can fire back. And the interface is not perfect, especially in Civ6. Not sure if that was resolved with the Civ6 mods or if it's actually considered to be an interesting feature.
On January 25 2017 17:07 Hildegard wrote: I'd be interested to read some news about it. Maybe some streamed and commented showmatches could be interesting.
What I disliked about Civ5 multiplayer is the mixture of turn-based and APM based. It sounds like a joke, but the battles are resolved simultaneous and so units can kill/damage other units before they can fire back. And the interface is not perfect, especially in Civ6. Not sure if that was resolved with the Civ6 mods or if it's actually considered to be an interesting feature.
IIRC there was an option to make CIV 6 go non-simultaneous turn based whenever there is a war.
On January 25 2017 17:07 Hildegard wrote: I'd be interested to read some news about it. Maybe some streamed and commented showmatches could be interesting.
What I disliked about Civ5 multiplayer is the mixture of turn-based and APM based. It sounds like a joke, but the battles are resolved simultaneous and so units can kill/damage other units before they can fire back. And the interface is not perfect, especially in Civ6. Not sure if that was resolved with the Civ6 mods or if it's actually considered to be an interesting feature.
IIRC there was an option to make CIV 6 go non-simultaneous turn based whenever there is a war.
Yeah, Civ5 had this too in a mode that was released in a patch: Hybrid Mode.
Well, most people were suspicious when this announcement was made and now it's fairly obvious our scepticism was well founded. What's still baffling me is how someone pretty high up at TL seriously thought this would be a good idea when the majority of users could see the problems. Has TL become such a big unwieldy beast with the 50 fusions, takeovers, partnerships and whatnot that the people in charge don't know what's happening anymore ?
On January 26 2017 07:36 nothingmuch wrote: Well, most people were suspicious when this announcement was made and now it's fairly obvious our scepticism was well founded. What's still baffling me is how someone pretty high up at TL seriously thought this would be a good idea when the majority of users could see the problems. Has TL become such a big unwieldy beast with the 50 fusions, takeovers, partnerships and whatnot that the people in charge don't know what's happening anymore ?
I don't think so. I think this was just a passion project from Liquid112 that went awry.
Nothing much was lost or gained from this...just a whole lot of confusion.
The mod being used changes a LOT, it'll play out really differently than all the civilization games I've played over the years. Not necessarily a bad thing (the mod will definitely speed up the games) but definitely a barrier to entry for competitors and spectators.
EPT![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/staff/shiroiusagi/2016/1021_civ.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/jT7gIwx.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/L7HR7Nr.jpg)
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