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On June 27 2016 09:03 Duka08 wrote:
Ok, I'm finally going to buckle down and dedicate some time to this game as well as Awakening. I've been saving them mostly for traveling during work trips since I've never been able to get super comfortable with the 3DS around the house, but I'm in such a mood to play a game like these lately that I'm gonna figure out a way dammit. I'm like 10-15 hours into Awakening and maybe just 2-3 into Fates. I'll probably finish Awakening before fully diving into the 3 campaigns of Fates.
I've glanced at this thread now and then and I'm really intrigued by all the discussion of mechanics I'm totally naive to. I'm familiar enough with the basics and am a big fan of similar titles, but I've ignored some of the more subtle aspects, namely the specifics behind Pairing Up (pros and cons and any differences between Awakening and Fates) and reclassing (who to reclass, to what, and why, etc). Any searching around gives me somewhat vague threads on sites like GameFAQs.
So, at the risk of sounding lazy, anyone willing to treat me like an idiot and spit your favorite tips-for-people-that-understand-the-basics-but-just-camp-like-a-bitch-on-every-map-and-dont-do-anything-complicated-beyond-forwarding-the-story?
In fates defensive pair ups rule all. Pair up bonuses are character specific.
In Birthright just make Corrin a Swordmaster. He and Ryoma can solo the game. Oboro Shiro Mozu other royals etc are all fine.
In Conquest solid team comps are much more important. Effie or Silas are solid early game pickups. Niles is nice for shurikanbreaker/nina. Camilla slaughters everything. Xander is a great lategame pickup. Beruka laslow and peri are pretty trash. Selena is 50/50 depending on if she gets str screwed or not. Arthur and charlotte are nice pair up bots. Benny is pretty alright. Odin and Nyx are both pretty weak but ophelia is really good by comparison.
In Revelations just use royals and healbots.
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On June 27 2016 09:03 Duka08 wrote:
Ok, I'm finally going to buckle down and dedicate some time to this game as well as Awakening. I've been saving them mostly for traveling during work trips since I've never been able to get super comfortable with the 3DS around the house, but I'm in such a mood to play a game like these lately that I'm gonna figure out a way dammit. I'm like 10-15 hours into Awakening and maybe just 2-3 into Fates. I'll probably finish Awakening before fully diving into the 3 campaigns of Fates.
I've glanced at this thread now and then and I'm really intrigued by all the discussion of mechanics I'm totally naive to. I'm familiar enough with the basics and am a big fan of similar titles, but I've ignored some of the more subtle aspects, namely the specifics behind Pairing Up (pros and cons and any differences between Awakening and Fates) and reclassing (who to reclass, to what, and why, etc). Any searching around gives me somewhat vague threads on sites like GameFAQs.
So, at the risk of sounding lazy, anyone willing to treat me like an idiot and spit your favorite tips-for-people-that-understand-the-basics-but-just-camp-like-a-bitch-on-every-map-and-dont-do-anything-complicated-beyond-forwarding-the-story?
Welcome to the thread!
I'm not going to treat you like an idiot (and I don't think you're lazy!), but I will give you some tips!
- Yango and chocorush know a TON about this game. Not saying that nobody else isn't knowledgeable, but you have questions about the subtle details, they're the two to ask. They'll more than likely get back to you in a timely fashion.
- Conquest really, really discourages the strategy that you mentioned. (Which is camping.) If you want the game to force you to switch it up it's going to be Conquest. Also, I think most of the people in the thread think that Conquest has the best level design by a wide margin. I might be exaggerating here, but I think most of the people here are Conquest fans.
- The mechanics are actually pretty easy to pick up, though they are numerous. Also, you don't need to stress out too much about learning the mechanics - on hard and lower I believe you can get by with solid decision making and effective unit management. (Not spreading your experience too thin, etc.)
- Reclassing can give you a TON of mileage, but you don't need to reclass to finish the game. A good reclassing point for any character is at 20/11 or 20/15 and do four levels of what you reclassed into. If you have character specific questions about reclassing, just ask here and someone will get back to you.
- Always feel free to ask any question here. We're here to help you, not to shame you!
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To be fair conquest has shit tier writing/story. Granted all of Fates plots are pretty meh, conquest is especially terrible.
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Conquest's story seems especially weak after replaying the Sacred Stones. Of course, I don't really play Fire Emblem games for the plot. Conquest really squandered it's potential as far as story goes I feel.
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Sacred Stones has some of the best story/character development in the series so that's not totally fair to Conquest.
Sacred Stones' shortcomings are mostly a low amount of maingame content and disappointingly low difficulty.
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How is that comparison not fair to Conquest? Because of the disparity of the quality?
I think it's a fair comparison if they're both games in the same franchise.
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On June 27 2016 09:52 TheYango wrote:
Sacred Stones has some of the best story/character development in the series so that's not totally fair to Conquest.
Sacred Stones' shortcomings are mostly a low amount of maingame content and disappointingly low difficulty.
It is fair because story was one of the primary focuses of fates. They recognized Awakening was a bit weak on this regard so they put extra effort towards it. Despite this we get a whole bunch of nonsense. Garon is clearly evil. No moral grey etc
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On June 27 2016 10:00 Cricketer12 wrote:
It is fair because story was one of the primary focuses of fates.
I think it was a primary focus of Birthright.
Birthright got the somewhat-decent story with insipid gameplay. Conquest got the great gameplay with awful story. Each game had one good aspect and filler in the other.
As a whole they still only spent the effort of making 1 game, they just split it up over 2 games, counting on people favoring the part they valued more.
Awakening is actually decently close to having a reasonable story. The two stand-out flaws are a) everyone sucks the Avatar's dick for the entire game and the existence of the player avatar actively detracts from the development of other characters (Chrom especially), and b) the Valm arc ends up being a huge filler where nothing happens and a bunch of nonsensical contrivances occur (in addition to having some terrible maps like the Mila Tree and the Walhart chapters). If you remove those 2 elements, the rest of the story is pretty medium for an FE story and would be acceptable.
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On June 27 2016 10:02 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2016 10:00 Cricketer12 wrote:
It is fair because story was one of the primary focuses of fates. I think it was a primary focus of Birthright. Birthright got the somewhat-decent story with insipid gameplay. Conquest got the great gameplay with awful story. Each game had one good aspect and filler in the other. As a whole they still only spent the effort of making 1 game, they just split it up over 2 games, counting on people favoring the part they valued more. Awakening is actually decently close to having a reasonable story. The two stand-out flaws are a) everyone sucks the Avatar's dick for the entire game and the existence of the player avatar actively detracts from the development of other characters (Chrom especially), and b) the Valm arc ends up being a huge filler where nothing happens and a bunch of nonsensical contrivances occur (in addition to having some terrible maps like the Mila Tree and the Walhart chapters). If you remove those 2 elements, the rest of the story is pretty medium for an FE story and would be acceptable.
There are some very weird contrived incidents towards the end in regards to the last two gems.
Or the fact that grima coulda barrel rolled and killed everyone 
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Nah, the fliers would survive and its the Dark Fliers that do the work of carrying you lategame anyway
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I really don't like the execution of the split. The whole conquest route makes even less sense if you didn't play Birthright, because most of it is fighting against all these people that are for all intents and purposes just generic boss units but you were supposed to get some greater significance out of it than is possible if you didn't play BR.
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On June 27 2016 10:21 chocorush wrote:
I really don't like the execution of the split. The whole conquest route makes even less sense if you didn't play Birthright, because most of it is fighting against all these people that are for all intents and purposes just generic boss units but you were supposed to get some greater significance out of it than is possible if you didn't play BR.
Whats worse is + Show Spoiler +the whole decision is trivialized by the fact that Corrin is Vallite.
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On June 27 2016 09:44 Frudgey wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2016 09:03 Duka08 wrote:
Ok, I'm finally going to buckle down and dedicate some time to this game as well as Awakening. I've been saving them mostly for traveling during work trips since I've never been able to get super comfortable with the 3DS around the house, but I'm in such a mood to play a game like these lately that I'm gonna figure out a way dammit. I'm like 10-15 hours into Awakening and maybe just 2-3 into Fates. I'll probably finish Awakening before fully diving into the 3 campaigns of Fates.
I've glanced at this thread now and then and I'm really intrigued by all the discussion of mechanics I'm totally naive to. I'm familiar enough with the basics and am a big fan of similar titles, but I've ignored some of the more subtle aspects, namely the specifics behind Pairing Up (pros and cons and any differences between Awakening and Fates) and reclassing (who to reclass, to what, and why, etc). Any searching around gives me somewhat vague threads on sites like GameFAQs.
So, at the risk of sounding lazy, anyone willing to treat me like an idiot and spit your favorite tips-for-people-that-understand-the-basics-but-just-camp-like-a-bitch-on-every-map-and-dont-do-anything-complicated-beyond-forwarding-the-story? Welcome to the thread! I'm not going to treat you like an idiot (and I don't think you're lazy!), but I will give you some tips! - Yango and chocorush know a TON about this game. Not saying that nobody else isn't knowledgeable, but you have questions about the subtle details, they're the two to ask. They'll more than likely get back to you in a timely fashion. - Conquest really, really discourages the strategy that you mentioned. (Which is camping.) If you want the game to force you to switch it up it's going to be Conquest. Also, I think most of the people in the thread think that Conquest has the best level design by a wide margin. I might be exaggerating here, but I think most of the people here are Conquest fans. - The mechanics are actually pretty easy to pick up, though they are numerous. Also, you don't need to stress out too much about learning the mechanics - on hard and lower I believe you can get by with solid decision making and effective unit management. (Not spreading your experience too thin, etc.) - Reclassing can give you a TON of mileage, but you don't need to reclass to finish the game. A good reclassing point for any character is at 20/11 or 20/15 and do four levels of what you reclassed into. If you have character specific questions about reclassing, just ask here and someone will get back to you. - Always feel free to ask any question here. We're here to help you, not to shame you!
Nice info, thanks! The reclassing thing is probably the most interesting but unknown element for me right now. I wasn't sure if there was a specific reason to (i.e. if it's ALWAYS GOOD) or if it's personal preference to round out a lineup or just have a powerful combo like Cricketer mentioned above you. Can you only do it after reaching 20 like you said? Is there any reason to leave a character even after you hit 20? Or do you stop gaining xp? Things like this are the sort of basic knowledge I feel like the game doesn't just beat you over the head with.
Cool to hear about Conquest's more dynamic style. I've been the most interested in that branch for a while, after eavesdropping on all the Lunatic conversation in this thread that seems to discuss Conq a lot. I do plan on playing Fates "in order" (BR, Conq, Rev), but I'll look forward to that (and apparently enjoy BR's story while I can, for that matter lol). And I do think I'll finish Awakening first just for posterity's sake too. Plus apparently that game is a breeze if you start abusing pair up, which I wasn't doing at all, hence why I asked in my original post because I just wasn't sure on the math and pros/cons behind specific mechanics like that. Though I don't think it's exactly the same in Fates either? Lots to keep track of. Seems like an amazing series of games and I'd love to play some of the older titles too if I can find them (any good ones on modern virtual consoles?). I'm a long time FFTactics fan and I've appreciated the FE games for the past couples years for a number of reasons, but it can feel daunting to get in to with such a long history and lots of hidden depth.
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On June 27 2016 12:06 Duka08 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2016 09:44 Frudgey wrote:On June 27 2016 09:03 Duka08 wrote:
Ok, I'm finally going to buckle down and dedicate some time to this game as well as Awakening. I've been saving them mostly for traveling during work trips since I've never been able to get super comfortable with the 3DS around the house, but I'm in such a mood to play a game like these lately that I'm gonna figure out a way dammit. I'm like 10-15 hours into Awakening and maybe just 2-3 into Fates. I'll probably finish Awakening before fully diving into the 3 campaigns of Fates.
I've glanced at this thread now and then and I'm really intrigued by all the discussion of mechanics I'm totally naive to. I'm familiar enough with the basics and am a big fan of similar titles, but I've ignored some of the more subtle aspects, namely the specifics behind Pairing Up (pros and cons and any differences between Awakening and Fates) and reclassing (who to reclass, to what, and why, etc). Any searching around gives me somewhat vague threads on sites like GameFAQs.
So, at the risk of sounding lazy, anyone willing to treat me like an idiot and spit your favorite tips-for-people-that-understand-the-basics-but-just-camp-like-a-bitch-on-every-map-and-dont-do-anything-complicated-beyond-forwarding-the-story? Welcome to the thread! I'm not going to treat you like an idiot (and I don't think you're lazy!), but I will give you some tips! - Yango and chocorush know a TON about this game. Not saying that nobody else isn't knowledgeable, but you have questions about the subtle details, they're the two to ask. They'll more than likely get back to you in a timely fashion. - Conquest really, really discourages the strategy that you mentioned. (Which is camping.) If you want the game to force you to switch it up it's going to be Conquest. Also, I think most of the people in the thread think that Conquest has the best level design by a wide margin. I might be exaggerating here, but I think most of the people here are Conquest fans. - The mechanics are actually pretty easy to pick up, though they are numerous. Also, you don't need to stress out too much about learning the mechanics - on hard and lower I believe you can get by with solid decision making and effective unit management. (Not spreading your experience too thin, etc.) - Reclassing can give you a TON of mileage, but you don't need to reclass to finish the game. A good reclassing point for any character is at 20/11 or 20/15 and do four levels of what you reclassed into. If you have character specific questions about reclassing, just ask here and someone will get back to you. - Always feel free to ask any question here. We're here to help you, not to shame you! Nice info, thanks! The reclassing thing is probably the most interesting but unknown element for me right now. I wasn't sure if there was a specific reason to (i.e. if it's ALWAYS GOOD) or if it's personal preference to round out a lineup or just have a powerful combo like Cricketer mentioned above you. Can you only do it after reaching 20 like you said? Is there any reason to leave a character even after you hit 20? Or do you stop gaining xp? Things like this are the sort of basic knowledge I feel like the game doesn't just beat you over the head with. Cool to hear about Conquest's more dynamic style. I've been the most interested in that branch for a while, after eavesdropping on all the Lunatic conversation in this thread that seems to discuss Conq a lot. I do plan on playing Fates "in order" (BR, Conq, Rev), but I'll look forward to that (and apparently enjoy BR's story while I can, for that matter lol). And I do think I'll finish Awakening first just for posterity's sake too. Plus apparently that game is a breeze if you start abusing pair up, which I wasn't doing at all, hence why I asked in my original post because I just wasn't sure on the math and pros/cons behind specific mechanics like that. Though I don't think it's exactly the same in Fates either? Lots to keep track of. Seems like an amazing series of games and I'd love to play some of the older titles too if I can find them (any good ones on modern virtual consoles?). I'm a long time FFTactics fan and I've appreciated the FE games for the past couples years for a number of reasons, but it can feel daunting to get in to with such a long history and lots of hidden depth.
So once you hit 20 you can promote using a master seal. Then as a new class you max at 20 (swordmaster palla etc). However at any point you can use a heart seal to change your class and keep your current level. Sometimes you just do this to gain skills (Xander into hero for sol, Effie for luna for pavise etc). Other times but much less often because a new class is vastly superior (Corrin into a secondary, instead of noble, Jakob into Paladin as a standalone/pair up). I would look up what class get what skills and play around with heart seals accordingly. Some of the most recommended heart seals are for corrin and jakob as permanants,xander for chap 26, Niles, Nina, Anna for shurikanbreaker/pass.
In terms of legally playing older games, if you have a wii u you have play FE7 and FE8 the GBA games on wii u virtual console.
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Awakening and Fates reclassing mechanics are very different. It's important to distinguish the differences to utilize them effectively. Note: what's detailed below is related to *reclassing*. Promotion, which uses Master Seals in both games, is different and far less complex.
Awakening reclassing uses one seal: the Second Seal. Using a Second Seal drops your level down to 1 in the class you change to (with a somewhat higher internal level for determining XP gain). You must be higher than level 10 to use a Second Seal, and if you are lower than level 10 promoted, you will only be able to second seal into non-promoted classes.
Because of this level-resetting/internal-level-increasing property, Awakening's reclassing mechanics require insane grinding to really interact with fully. In normal play, most characters will only practically be able to reclass once, if at all. Generally the time to do this is either immediately at level 10 unpromoted (for characters in especially weak base classes that really need to change classes to reach their potential, like Panne and Donnel) or at level 15/16 promoted (to go into a better class after obtaining all the skills in your class). Some characters don't make sense to reclass at all in a no/low-grind context (for example, Dark Flier is so much better than all of Sumia's other class options that for normal play, you really just never want to be in any other class after promotion).
Fates reclassing uses 3 seals: the Heart Seal (switches to one of your own alternate class options), and the Friendship and Partner Seals (switch to the main class of an A+/S supported character, respectively). All these reclassing methods share key differences from Awakening. First, in Fates, reclassing does NOT reset your character's level. Second, reclassing in Fates can be done at any level, and always lets you switch to a class of an equivalent tier. Lastly, if the class you switch to has skills that you have not yet learned, you will retroactively gain missed skills on subsequent levelups.
It's important to note that the kind of reclassing that Cricketer and Frudgey mention solely to get skills is exclusive to lategame. Until chapter 20 of an route in Fates, the shop stocks a limited number of Heart/Friendship/Partner seals, which means that reclassing consumes a valuable limited resource. Generally, all reclassing done before chapter 20 has to be higher-impact than simply getting skills. Characters reclassed before chapter 20 are largely done to gain massive improvements to their mobility or combat effectiveness based on being in a better class. Birthright and Conquest only give you 5-6 Heart Seals before chapter 20, so the number of characters that legitimately can compete for one of those isn't much more than that.
Even after chapter 20, the lategame reclassing-for-skills is pretty low impact, and it won't significantly hurt your ability to beat the game without doing it.
EDIT: As far as references for the nitty-gritty mechanics of Fire Emblem, serenesforest.net is easily the best English-language resource. If you're unsure of how something works, that's always a good place to start.
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For the most part, saving your reclass to get skills in one go is kind of a noobie trap. Almost every character that wants to reclass before you have access to unlimited heart seals should reclass immediately to start getting the benefits of the new class earlier. Waiting to promoted 5 or 15 is just way too long, and most of the game would be over by then.
Strategically speaking, being too stingy with your resources is the easiest mistake to make, and you'll have a lot easier time of you actually use your gold on items like vulneraries, tonics, and using the stat boosters you get rather than waiting for a perfect situation.
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I'd say the 2 biggest newbie mistakes are being too stingy with resources and overvaluing growths/undervaluing bases.
In the words of an FE speedrunner: "in Fire Emblem, 'good enough' is just good". New players tend to be drawn to the high-growth trainee units like Mozu/Donnel due to their tendency to cap out stats, and likewise shy away from pre-promoted units with high bases due to their tamer growths (on Serenes there was even a ridiculous thread saying even Ryoma/Xander weren't worth using 'cuz prepromote'). The fact of the matter is that because of how much FE is based around thresholds (speed to double, Strength to kill in 1 round, bulk to survive an enemy phase), overkill amounts of a stat isn't much better than being just barely good enough.
This is not to say that growth units are bad, but generally good units are doing useful things the moment you get them (even if that's not necessarily combat--e.g. Sumia takes some time for her combat to kick in but she has flier utility until then). If a unit is a complete liability at their recruit time, its very hard for them to pull enough weight to make up for that later.
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On June 27 2016 12:41 TheYango wrote:
Generally the time to do this is either immediately at level 10 unpromoted (for characters in especially weak base classes that really need to change classes to reach their potential, like Panne and Donnel) or at level 15/16 promoted (to go into a better class after obtaining all the skills in your class). Some characters don't make sense to reclass at all in a no/low-grind context (for example, Dark Flier is so much better than all of Sumia's other class options that for normal play, you really just never want to be in any other class after promotion).
See this shit is what's really interesting to me, but it seems hard to know without just looking into detailed guides or strategies for higher difficulties. Or trial and error lol. What makes a class bad and what makes other classes good for switching to? I'll probably just start trolling through tables and wikis a bit. I think this kind of stuff will really enhance my experience with the game, even though I've enjoyed both so far already.
Specific examples might be the best way to fill in the gaps. You mentioned Panne; I'm familiar, so it would be a good example case. What is her base class, why is it suboptimal (Growths? Poor stat allocation? What she can/can't wield? ... Honestly what are even the most significant differences between classes in these games in the first place?), what are the options to switch to, and what makes a "good" switch good? Can anyone reclass to any other class, or does each character have a certain set of options? And I'm assuming promotions (thanks for clarifying the difference Yango) give you options specific to the class you hit level 20(?) or whatever with.
For now I'd assume that I'm not going to do any CRAZY grinding and will be mostly focusing on just getting through the game on Hard or whatever, so it's not like I need to go crazy with this stuff to be successful of course. But I think I'll enjoy it more. Especially early reclasses that bring the most out of a character, rather than the thorough late-game grinding just to squeeze out every skill like yall were mentioning probably isn't crucial. Details like this interest me. The games are vague enough about it to bug me a bit (unless I just really missed some important menus or guides somewhere in game), and rather than remaining ignorant and just plowing through the game I'd rather absorb all this great info about the stuff I'm missing.
Amazing info so far. You folks are too generous lol
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On June 27 2016 13:39 TheYango wrote:+ Show Spoiler +I'd say the 2 biggest newbie mistakes are being too stingy with resources and overvaluing growths/undervaluing bases.
In the words of an FE speedrunner: "in Fire Emblem, 'good enough' is just good". New players tend to be drawn to the high-growth trainee units like Mozu/Donnel due to their tendency to cap out stats, and likewise shy away from pre-promoted units with high bases due to their tamer growths (on Serenes there was even a ridiculous thread saying even Ryoma/Xander weren't worth using 'cuz prepromote'). The fact of the matter is that because of how much FE is based around thresholds (speed to double, Strength to kill in 1 round, bulk to survive an enemy phase), overkill amounts of a stat isn't much better than being just barely good enough.
This is not to say that growth units are bad, but generally good units are doing useful things the moment you get them (even if that's not necessarily combat--e.g. Sumia takes some time for her combat to kick in but she has flier utility until then). If a unit is a complete liability at their recruit time, its very hard for them to pull enough weight to make up for that later.
I've dabbled enough in these style of games to realize the differences between high growth and good base. I don't split hairs about that stuff lol, unless you're really challenging yourself or pushing the limits I tend to just enjoy using characters I like and staying well rounded. Not gonna grind out a character I don't care for just because they'll be a numerical powerhouse eventually. Doesn't float my boat.
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In Panne's case, the reason why the Taguel class is bad is pretty clear-cut. It has no promotion class and simply continues to gain levels after 20. What this means in practice is that if she continues in the Taguel class, she is at a large statistical disadvantage relative to the rest of your team after that point because everyone else gets a big stat bump from promoting while she gets nothing.
Generally, the motivation to reclass comes from gaining better movement options (e.g. mounted movement or flight) or better weapon options (Sorcerer is particularly notable for this in Awakening). Sometimes certain skills motivate reclassing but these tend to be less impactful/necessary.
In Awakening, each character has 2 alternate class lines and can Second Seal to either of those class lines (you'll have to look up what they are). In Fates each character has only 1 alternate class line and can Heart Seal to that, but can gain access to other classes through supports. The support-based reclassing tends to be not be used as often though due to the requirement of support building resulting in them becoming available relatively late.
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On June 27 2016 13:55 TheYango wrote:
In Panne's case, the reason why the Taguel class is bad is pretty clear-cut. It has no promotion class and simply continues to gain levels after 20. What this means in practice is that if she continues in the Taguel class, she is at a large statistical disadvantage relative to the rest of your team after that point because everyone else gets a big stat bump from promoting while she gets nothing.
And the advantages (if any) of the Taguel class don't outweigh having that ceiling? Makes sense.
There aren't as many classes to choose from for each character as I expected, so I'll probably just fuck around with it a bit to get a feel for how it works. Good call on detailing the difference between Awakening and Fates reclassing though, since I'll probably be starting with Awakening. I'll just try to use stuff sooner as I collect it, rather than cling to it and overthink it.
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EPT
