EPTGrey Goo - new RTS from original C&C devs - Page 7
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Dangermousecatdog
United Kingdom7084 Posts
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FeyFey
Germany10114 Posts
And yes those trailers are tempting me :< | ||
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TMG26
Portugal2017 Posts
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-Archangel-
Croatia7457 Posts
On January 18 2015 01:08 TMG26 wrote: Is they any video of high level players playing it? The game is not out yet. | ||
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Endymion
United States3701 Posts
also, anyone have keys to beta? are the devs looking to actually balance multiplayer? also calling it now Goo econ is op is you have 350 apm | ||
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JimmyJRaynor
Canada17943 Posts
details are in the thread about no beta. | ||
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Endymion
United States3701 Posts
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JimmyJRaynor
Canada17943 Posts
now they claim they are developing replays and observer mode. i'll believe it when i see it. once those things are in place i'll prolly pick it up at a rock bottom sale price in one of steam's sales. | ||
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TheBloodyDwarf
Finland7524 Posts
On December 20 2014 20:38 amazingxkcd wrote: but SC2 does cater towards the less skilled players. Auto mining, infinite control groups, MBS, anti micro abilities, lack of mechanics, retarded economy designs, warp gates, etc. The list goes on and on and on... What makes an RTS game good is the mechanics. If you dumb down mechanics, you dumb down the game. (Its why Brood war is the best rts game ever created since it has the highest mechanic ceiling of all rts games). This is just only opinion. I think Age of Empires 2 is the best rts game ever. | ||
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Yoav
United States1874 Posts
On January 18 2015 05:10 TheBloodyDwarf wrote: This is just only opinion. I think Age of Empires 2 is the best rts game ever. There are matters for opinion and matters of fact. AoE2 is a wonderful game. It does not compete with Broodwar in any meaningful way. | ||
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FeyFey
Germany10114 Posts
On December 20 2014 20:38 amazingxkcd wrote: but SC2 does cater towards the less skilled players. Auto mining, infinite control groups, MBS, anti micro abilities, lack of mechanics, retarded economy designs, warp gates, etc. The list goes on and on and on... What makes an RTS game good is the mechanics. If you dumb down mechanics, you dumb down the game. (Its why Brood war is the best rts game ever created since it has the highest mechanic ceiling of all rts games). I played rts games with a higher mechanical skill ceiling then BW and I wouldn't call them better because of that. But I do prefer strategical depth over mechanical skill in rts games. Both is needed though and BW was good because it was a good mix that kept the human limitation in mind. And with a ton of lucky constellations it became awesome to look at if you put alot of time into the game. I like Sc2 more then BW, but I think reaching the sweet spot that BW had is not reachable for humans in Sc2. Atleast if we keep playing on fastest. | ||
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Aron Times
United States312 Posts
On January 18 2015 01:08 TMG26 wrote: Is they any video of high level players playing it? I don't know if you've heard of him, but BikeRush was given an early press version of Grey Goo along with several other streamers (including TotalBiscuit). BikeRush is one of the best C&C players, and has much better mechanics and APM than any other player I've seen playing Grey Goo. He played for a short time during the closed alpha (though I never ran into him then), but he recently started streaming multiplayer matches of Grey Goo. He pretty much trashed every single Petroglyph dev he played with once he got the hang of the controls (most devs are good at developing games, but aren't the best at playing them, e.g. Dustin Browder). On January 18 2015 03:55 Endymion wrote: totalbiscuit is streaming this atm, check it out he has some SC2 experience so his insightful is 100x more useful than solely dev produced content: http://www.twitch.tv/totalbiscuit also, anyone have keys to beta? are the devs looking to actually balance multiplayer? also calling it now Goo econ is op is you have 350 apm For those who missed it, TB really liked the game and seemed to really enjoy it. I doubt Petroglyph has the money to bribe TB to shill their game, not that TB would ever do it in the first place. He did have three main concerns: 1. The UI is really large and obtrusive. He mentioned this while playing the Goo, and I agree. The Goo UI is quite large compared to the other factions' UI since it doesn't collapse to show more of the battlefield when you don't have a building selected. Instead, it always shows the status of your Mother Goos. I'm hoping that the devs will fix this or at least allow players to mod the UI into a minimalistic version. 2. The game potentially doesn't have a lot of depth. Base-building and unit production are simplified and streamlined, and units don't have any activated abilities. As the meta hasn't been established yet, it remains to be seen if the game truly doesn't have any depth. 3. The game feels slow paced. I agree with this somewhat. The slow pace is a deliberate design choice, as the game is meant to be slower paced than its contemporaries (SC2). However, the default settings force a mixed group of units to move at the speed of the slowest unit. Players who have turned off this setting have noticeably faster units (since they aren't being slowed down by the heavier units). I'm not a subscriber, so I can't review the VOD to make sure, but TB seemed to play on the default settings. The game is still slower paced than SC2 with this setting turned off, but much, much faster than the streams I've watched where it hasn't been turned off. As for the multiplayer balance, the devs have promised to support this game. The background information available in the new website suggests future expansions on other planets, including the what is speculated to be the original Beta homeworld, Ecosystem Psi, with some mysterious text in an unknown language: https://www.greybox.com/greygoo/en/info/galaxy/ecosystem-psi/ | ||
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algue
France1436 Posts
On January 18 2015 15:46 Eternal Dalek wrote: (most devs are good at developing games, but aren't the best at playing them, e.g. Dustin Browder). You mean the guy who's being blamed by the entire Sc2 communtiy for all the game's design problems (and god knows there's a lot of them) ? | ||
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BEARDiaguz
Australia2362 Posts
On January 18 2015 20:43 algue wrote: You mean the guy who's being blamed by the entire Sc2 communtiy for all the game's design problems (and god knows there's a lot of them) ? Well yes who else do you think he meant? And he's right. Sort of. Game design requires a more creative sort of mind. For example, the lead designer for Magic the Gathering for the past 10 years has been Mark Rosewater and he'll readily admit that he's not good enough to qualify for a pro tour let alone beat anyone there. Same with most of the design team really. They know how to create interesting and fun cards. | ||
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ZAiNs
United Kingdom6525 Posts
On January 18 2015 20:43 algue wrote: You mean the guy who's being blamed by the entire Sc2 communtiy for all the game's design problems (and god knows there's a lot of them) ? You mean the guy who isn't really responsible for SC2's exaggerated design problems, blamed by a vocal minority of people who lost too many ladder games? | ||
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Simberto
Germany12036 Posts
On January 18 2015 21:49 ROOTiaguz wrote: Well yes who else do you think he meant? And he's right. Sort of. Game design requires a more creative sort of mind. For example, the lead designer for Magic the Gathering for the past 10 years has been Mark Rosewater and he'll readily admit that he's not good enough to qualify for a pro tour let alone beat anyone there. Same with most of the design team really. They know how to create interesting and fun cards. Does that surprise anyone? A game designers job is to design games, not to play them most efficiently. Of course there is some overlap in skillsets here, but also obviously a person whose only job it to play games and who does not "waste" time doing other non-playing things involved in game making is bound to be better at the game. Noone would expect an engineer at ferrari to be a better race driver than their actual drivers. | ||
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TheBloodyDwarf
Finland7524 Posts
On January 18 2015 06:45 Yoav wrote: There are matters for opinion and matters of fact. AoE2 is a wonderful game. It does not compete with Broodwar in any meaningful way. Not in competitive aspect but yes in every other way. | ||
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KeksX
Germany3634 Posts
On January 19 2015 00:38 TheBloodyDwarf wrote: Not in competitive aspect but yes in every other way. What ways? Also, I want to point out that while Game Designers certainly don't have to be good gamers, they require feedback of those guys. If you can think of fun ways to play, but they are horribly imbalanced and don't work given to the right person, you have to change something(given that your goal is that at every levely, including highest of the higherst, is balanced and even; if you don't care about that you don't need it). If you're not the guy that is able to pull off something like that, you gotta bring in someone who can. Thats why having a focus testing group thats actually somewhat skilled is important, just as having a group thats NOT (as) skilled so you can see it on a different level. | ||
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Aron Times
United States312 Posts
tl;dr Games that balance casual play with esports have different rules for casual vs. competitive. Grey Goo's developers have said that esports is not their main priority, but will support it if there is enough demand. One of the things that really hurts SC2's casual player base, in addition to its high skill floor, is that casual ladder play (ladder quickmatch, that is) and competitive BoX (best of 3, best of 5, etc.) games use the exact same rules (the only difference is that comp matches have multiple games while ladder matches are single games). This means that game balance changes affect everyone whether they're Flash or JD or some other elite progamer or if they're just a casual Bronzie who plays once a week. Because the rules of the game apply to everyone, Blizzard has to decide whether to balance the game for the highest skill level (its core audience) or for all skill levels. The latter is much, much harder to accomplish than the former, which is why SC2 is balanced for the highest level of play. This is why Protoss is horribly underpowered in the lower leagues (at least when I was still active). Forcefields are so powerful that basic Protoss units were made weaker pound-for-pound to compensate. However, they require a significant amount of skill to use, which means that while the game is theoretically balanced at the highest level of play, where everyone can place good forcefields, the game is quite unbalanced at the lower leagues, where your typical Protoss player can't even forcefield his or her ramp to cut off the A-moving Terran bio ball. Compare this to Valve's esports titles: Counterstrike, DotA, and Team Fortress. Now, I only play TF2 and DotA 2, so I'll only comment on those: Casual TF2 (pubs) vs. competitive TF2 (comp) are played very differently. In most pub servers, there are no class limits, and you can freely switch to the other team whether by choice or through autobalance to keep the game fair (for a certain value of fair). Any item loadout and strategy is allowed, with few exceptions. Also, depending on the server, it can be up to 12v12 or 16v16. The vast majority of pub servers enable random crits (random chance to deal triple the maximum amount of damage on an attack) and weapon damage spread (weapons deal anywhere from -10% to +10% of the base damage on any given attack). Comp TF2 is much more regulated than pub TF2, and comes in two formats: 6v6 and Highlander. 6v6, as the name suggests, limits the team size to six players, and there is also a limit of one Demoman and one Medic per team (because these two classes are horribly overpowered when you only have half the amount of people compared to a normal pub game). Newly-released items are always banned until some time has passed and they've been determined not to unbalance the game (unless they're simply reskins that don't actually differ mechanically from currently allowed items). Highlander is similar to 6v6 except that it forces teams to have one of each class (nine classes = nine players per team). And finally, there are no random crits or weapon damage spread in comp games to eliminate random luck. DotA 2, like TF2, makes a distinction between casual play and competitive play. The default game mode in casual DotA 2 is Allpick, where anyone can pick any hero at any time. On the other hand, competitive DotA 2 is almost always played in Captains Mode, where a significant amount of time is spent having both teams take turns banning, picking, and counterpicking their respective heroes. Also, like TF2, newly-released heroes are always banned from Captains Mode until they've been around for a while. Grey Goo's developers have outright said that esports wouldn't be the primary focus of the game, though they would support it if there is enough demand. For example, the game won't have replays and observer mode at launch, but because of the huge community demand, they've announced that these two features will be among the first to be added post-launch. The target audience of Grey Goo are players who like traditional RTS games with base-building, resource gathering, unit production, and actual combat but don't enjoy the incredibly high skill floor and cutthroat competitiveness of SC2 or the single controllable unit with no base-building in DotA and LoL. Outside of dedicated SC2 forums like TeamLiquid.net, SC2 isn't very popular or looked upon as fun to play, though almost everyone agrees that it is fun to watch. Personally, and I don't think I'm alone in this, I'd rather have a game that I can enjoy playing even if I can't really watch it on the big screen compared to a game that I don't find fun to play but only fun to watch. | ||
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-Archangel-
Croatia7457 Posts
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