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On September 24 2015 23:44 bardtown wrote: Looks like a worse version of TF2. Funny that Blizzard made such a fuss about Dota 2 and then ripped off TF2 completely. I'd need to play it to really understand though. The potential for comboing abilities with your team is nice, but moving away from Quake-like gameplay to add ARTS elements... meh. I need to see how it plays, but right now I doubt it's gonna be a great FPS.
IMO, looks like a much better version of TF2. The thing that made TF2 suck was that each class was completely linear in what they could do, and 2 specific classes could completely lock the other team out of the game if they were any good (Sniper and Demoman). That and hell, aim only really mattered for 2 classes, the rest could get away with being shit aimers, so I don't know why you'd rate it highly if you're into Quake. There was also no possible way to solo carry a team on offense.
Whereas Overwatch certainly has class roles, but each one appears more flexible and able to adapt via the use of certain abilities and weapons. Teamwork is rewarded, but solo carry is possible. Given I have literally no RL friends that have continued playing multiplayer video games into their 20s, I value the solo experience much higher than some.
I could be wrong, but again, I hate TF2 and am pumped for this game.
Most classes on TF2 are quite straightforward. That's appropriate for an FPS though, and they all have a lot of scope for creative play with a simple toolbox. Sniper, by the way, can never shut down a game unless he is 10x better than the other players, in which case he could do the same on any class. It is countered by other snipers, spy, pyro, scout, a jumping soldier/demo, etc. The overwatch classes may be less linear, but that makes the game look really spammy. I mean, we're looking at 6v6 in these videos, and yet it seems as messy as a 24 man TF2 server.
It's really clear that you have no idea about TF2 if you think you can be anything other than awful on soldier/demo/heavy without very good aim. Demoman has the highest skillcap of all, and twitch aiming is essential for hitting pipes.
We're probably looking at this from different angles though, because I played almost exclusively competitive 6v6 in TF2, and I think it was one of the most enjoyable competitive games out there. Unfortunately Valve had no interest in encouraging TF2 as an eSport, so it died.
1:05, demoman strafe jumps to kill medic, puts the soldier in the air, then double airshots the scout also killing the soldier. Competitive TF2 is all about that quake-style twitch aim and clutch plays. Time will tell if Overwatch has it too, or if it's more about gimmicky abilities.
Nice. From what i can say of having played like Division 3-4 competitive TF2 for a year, it's extremely diverse in 6v6 and extremely tactical with room for huge teamplays and huge solo plays. Like getting a solo medic pickoff can be huge and snowball into a round win, for example.
I actually disagree with the whole demoman / soldier having highest skill cap, i just don't think that classes with projectile weapons can be harder to play than classes with hitscan weapons (scout). With projectile weapons there is always an element of luck involved, you need to predict which way your enemy is going to run / jump yes but if they do move the opposite direction you will miss, you simply cant land 100% of shots no matter how good your aim is unlike hitscan weapons. Also one of the reasons i sometimes disliked TF2 was the spam... random rockets, random pipe grenades, simply ruined the fun a lot of the time and slowed down the pace of the game.
That brings me to probably the only thing i am worried about in Overwatch, when i see classes like pharah who is obviously very much like the soldier, and able to spam rockets in random directions and create this "spam", imagine you're running along and out of a corner and a rocket hits you in the face and takes half /most of your hp, theres no "skill" to that, he simply got lucky and you got unlucky, it happens all the time and i just hope its not as bad in overwatch, i mean i understand that you kind of need classes like that to "please" everyone but i guess im just biased as i was a big RTCW:ET player.
Tldr: Less projectile weapons and more hitscan weapons please Overwatch.
On September 24 2015 23:44 bardtown wrote: Looks like a worse version of TF2. Funny that Blizzard made such a fuss about Dota 2 and then ripped off TF2 completely. I'd need to play it to really understand though. The potential for comboing abilities with your team is nice, but moving away from Quake-like gameplay to add ARTS elements... meh. I need to see how it plays, but right now I doubt it's gonna be a great FPS.
IMO, looks like a much better version of TF2. The thing that made TF2 suck was that each class was completely linear in what they could do, and 2 specific classes could completely lock the other team out of the game if they were any good (Sniper and Demoman). That and hell, aim only really mattered for 2 classes, the rest could get away with being shit aimers, so I don't know why you'd rate it highly if you're into Quake. There was also no possible way to solo carry a team on offense.
Whereas Overwatch certainly has class roles, but each one appears more flexible and able to adapt via the use of certain abilities and weapons. Teamwork is rewarded, but solo carry is possible. Given I have literally no RL friends that have continued playing multiplayer video games into their 20s, I value the solo experience much higher than some.
I could be wrong, but again, I hate TF2 and am pumped for this game.
Most classes on TF2 are quite straightforward. That's appropriate for an FPS though, and they all have a lot of scope for creative play with a simple toolbox. Sniper, by the way, can never shut down a game unless he is 10x better than the other players, in which case he could do the same on any class. It is countered by other snipers, spy, pyro, scout, a jumping soldier/demo, etc. The overwatch classes may be less linear, but that makes the game look really spammy. I mean, we're looking at 6v6 in these videos, and yet it seems as messy as a 24 man TF2 server.
It's really clear that you have no idea about TF2 if you think you can be anything other than awful on soldier/demo/heavy without very good aim. Demoman has the highest skillcap of all, and twitch aiming is essential for hitting pipes.
We're probably looking at this from different angles though, because I played almost exclusively competitive 6v6 in TF2, and I think it was one of the most enjoyable competitive games out there. Unfortunately Valve had no interest in encouraging TF2 as an eSport, so it died.
1:05, demoman strafe jumps to kill medic, puts the soldier in the air, then double airshots the scout also killing the soldier. Competitive TF2 is all about that quake-style twitch aim and clutch plays. Time will tell if Overwatch has it too, or if it's more about gimmicky abilities.
Nice. From what i can say of having played like Division 3-4 competitive TF2 for a year, it's extremely diverse in 6v6 and extremely tactical with room for huge teamplays and huge solo plays. Like getting a solo medic pickoff can be huge and snowball into a round win, for example.
Nice video. It's always really sad to see a game with a lot of potential go to waste, and seeing what Valve has done with Dota it's really clear that if they supported TF2 as an eSport it would have been much much bigger.
On September 26 2015 03:52 Reaps wrote: I actually disagree with the whole demoman / soldier having highest skill cap, i just don't think that classes with projectile weapons can be harder to play than classes with hitscan weapons (scout). With projectile weapons there is always an element of luck involved, you need to predict which way your enemy is going to run / jump yes but if they do move the opposite direction you will miss, you simply cant land 100% of shots no matter how good your aim is unlike hitscan weapons. Also one of the reasons i sometimes disliked TF2 was the spam... random rockets, random pipe grenades, simply ruined the fun a lot of the time and slowed down the pace of the game.
That brings me to probably the only thing i am worried about in Overwatch, when i see classes like pharah who is obviously very much like the soldier, and able to spam rockets in random directions and create this "spam", imagine you're running along and out of a corner and a rocket hits you in the face and takes half /most of your hp, theres no "skill" to that, he simply got lucky and you got unlucky, it happens all the time and i just hope its not as bad in overwatch, i mean i understand that you kind of need classes like that to "please" everyone but i guess im just biased as i was a big RTCW:ET player.
Tldr: Less projectile weapons and more hitscan weapons please Overwatch.
I didn't say that soldier had the highest skillcap, just demo. I'm biased because I am a demo/scout player, though. To be frank, demoman is overpowered, and that is why it is limited to 1 per team in competitive. What this means it's that you have a lot of responsibility, and that means you need a lot of gamesense. Should you be spamming stickies into the enemy team, or setting a trap for a scout that you're sure is coming behind? Balancing your responsibilities of being (often) the #1 damage dealer and also controlling the map is difficult. And it's true there's some luck in projectile placement, but 9/10 when a demoman beats a scout using stickies, it's skill, not luck. There's an art to putting stickies in a close-quarters fight that is really hard to explain and takes into account lots of things.
Being the victim of demoman spam is annoying, that's true. It was a natural part of the push/defend gametype though I guess, and you have to be skilled to roll out fast enough to get to the centre of the map before the enemy scouts/demo and shut them down. I didn't really have a problem with the spam stuff. As demo it was me doing it, and as scout I was usually running away from the chokepoints where it was happening :p.
Ah, talking about it makes me want to play again though.
For the record, I really don't give a damn about these kinds of games as e-sports. Overwatch may or may not be an e-sport, but the whole point in my mind is to be a casual reprieve from the more "serious" FPS games. It's kind of like how I play Heroes of the Storm to decompress after LoL solo queue. HotS is too dumb and imbalanced to be a proper e-sport IMO, but it makes for a damn good casual decompress game/gateway drug.
From a casual soloer's perspective, TF2 was a disaster because (precisely as you said) the Demoman was so completely overpowered. Having one good Demoman on defense with the rest of his team being really shitty vs. a team of average solo queue players, the game is not even close. Snipers could do the same thing if they had a half decent team to protect them. Basically, whenever I saw that I just had to find another server. Once all the new items and shit came out it just got worse because I started trying to play after a year or so only to find that everyone else had all these cool and much more powerful options that I didn't have (Flare gun being an example).
Overwatch looks to me like no single person can utterly dominate a game, but you can pull off flashy plays that feel good even when you're behind thanks to the ultimate system. Even if you end up losing the game, you can feel like you're having a big impact when you get those multi-man gravity bombs and the like, whereas in TF2, even if you crit rocket that sniper that was destroying you, you just died right after to the rest of his team and he was just back in a few seconds like nothing happened and it didn't even feel good.
On September 24 2015 23:44 bardtown wrote: Looks like a worse version of TF2. Funny that Blizzard made such a fuss about Dota 2 and then ripped off TF2 completely. I'd need to play it to really understand though. The potential for comboing abilities with your team is nice, but moving away from Quake-like gameplay to add ARTS elements... meh. I need to see how it plays, but right now I doubt it's gonna be a great FPS.
Blizzard didn't care about DotA the MOBA game.
They cared about Leoric the Skeleton King, Sylvanas Windrunner, (Mal)furion, etc. being in the game.
>For the record, I really don't give a damn about these kinds of games as e-sports. Overwatch may or may not be an e-sport, but the whole point in my mind is to be a casual reprieve from the more "serious" FPS games. It's kind of like how I play Heroes of the Storm to decompress after LoL solo queue. HotS is too dumb and imbalanced to be a proper e-sport IMO, but it makes for a damn good casual decompress game/gateway drug.
That sounds like what a lot of Dota and Starcraft fans said about LoL. Just because its casual doesn't mean its not worthy of being an e-sport or not. The only thing if its interesting enough for people to play over time, and if its interesting to watch.
On September 26 2015 09:34 deth2munkies wrote: For the record, I really don't give a damn about these kinds of games as e-sports. Overwatch may or may not be an e-sport, but the whole point in my mind is to be a casual reprieve from the more "serious" FPS games. It's kind of like how I play Heroes of the Storm to decompress after LoL solo queue. HotS is too dumb and imbalanced to be a proper e-sport IMO, but it makes for a damn good casual decompress game/gateway drug.
From a casual soloer's perspective, TF2 was a disaster because (precisely as you said) the Demoman was so completely overpowered. Having one good Demoman on defense with the rest of his team being really shitty vs. a team of average solo queue players, the game is not even close. Snipers could do the same thing if they had a half decent team to protect them. Basically, whenever I saw that I just had to find another server. Once all the new items and shit came out it just got worse because I started trying to play after a year or so only to find that everyone else had all these cool and much more powerful options that I didn't have (Flare gun being an example).
Overwatch looks to me like no single person can utterly dominate a game, but you can pull off flashy plays that feel good even when you're behind thanks to the ultimate system. Even if you end up losing the game, you can feel like you're having a big impact when you get those multi-man gravity bombs and the like, whereas in TF2, even if you crit rocket that sniper that was destroying you, you just died right after to the rest of his team and he was just back in a few seconds like nothing happened and it didn't even feel good.
I understand where you're coming from because I don't enjoy playing solo in public servers, but I don't think it's that easy to dominate a server in TF2, unless you have a friend who will heal you. I saw a gameplay video of Tracer(? I think) in which she got a 25 kill streak. That would be very difficult on TF2 unless you were playing spy vs new F2Pers or something.
For me the competitive gamemodes of TF2 were the only ones worth playing (which could be part of the reason Overwatch is 6v6 by default), but hey, millions of people disagree with us. TF2 was the most popular game on Steam for the longest time.
Yo guys, new hero champion characters announced, maybe from a while ago (?) but I didn't see anything about them in the thread. One looks kinda like Nader from Dirty Bomb, the other one has a license plate where it counts. So yeah here's a link to them:
On September 26 2015 03:52 Reaps wrote: I actually disagree with the whole demoman / soldier having highest skill cap, i just don't think that classes with projectile weapons can be harder to play than classes with hitscan weapons (scout). With projectile weapons there is always an element of luck involved, you need to predict which way your enemy is going to run / jump yes but if they do move the opposite direction you will miss, you simply cant land 100% of shots no matter how good your aim is unlike hitscan weapons. Also one of the reasons i sometimes disliked TF2 was the spam... random rockets, random pipe grenades, simply ruined the fun a lot of the time and slowed down the pace of the game.
That brings me to probably the only thing i am worried about in Overwatch, when i see classes like pharah who is obviously very much like the soldier, and able to spam rockets in random directions and create this "spam", imagine you're running along and out of a corner and a rocket hits you in the face and takes half /most of your hp, theres no "skill" to that, he simply got lucky and you got unlucky, it happens all the time and i just hope its not as bad in overwatch, i mean i understand that you kind of need classes like that to "please" everyone but i guess im just biased as i was a big RTCW:ET player.
Tldr: Less projectile weapons and more hitscan weapons please Overwatch.
You are misinformed. If you play enough quake you know "spamming" itself is a whole body of knowledge. In quake I think rockets aren't as strong though so it's more balanced out. Ammo is limited. Time is limited. If you spam an area you're not spamming another area. And if you miss you've just wasted a rocket (the rocket gun only comes with 10 rockets).
I admit I have never played TF2 and I could be wrong on certain things. In quake the opponent could be anywhere, and if you spam like an idiot you're wasting ammo, revealing your position, and you risk not being able to shoot if you need an important shot due to cooldown. When I play I need to keep track of my opponent's location. At the same time it's our job to dodge and avoid the spammed rockets/plasma gun
I do realise that there is also another difference in quake where everyone can use all the weapons.
Also, in quake, prediction shots are also used with non hitscan weapons.
They only appear random to the uninitiated. I play quake at a low level and I applaud and cheer when my brother hits me with a well timed and aimed prediction rocket. Of course I cheer like crazy too when I manage to predict his movements correctly. Spamming is also used to prevent or discourage a person from moving into an area, or at least to slow him down, while you go on doing something else.
Check this out this video commentary by the top quake pro. Everything I've mentioned will be apparent in this clip. Projectile shots increase the depth of the game by so much, at least for quake. They manage to land quite a number of prediction shots too because well they are great at reading each other.
On September 26 2015 03:52 Reaps wrote: I actually disagree with the whole demoman / soldier having highest skill cap, i just don't think that classes with projectile weapons can be harder to play than classes with hitscan weapons (scout). With projectile weapons there is always an element of luck involved, you need to predict which way your enemy is going to run / jump yes but if they do move the opposite direction you will miss, you simply cant land 100% of shots no matter how good your aim is unlike hitscan weapons. Also one of the reasons i sometimes disliked TF2 was the spam... random rockets, random pipe grenades, simply ruined the fun a lot of the time and slowed down the pace of the game.
That brings me to probably the only thing i am worried about in Overwatch, when i see classes like pharah who is obviously very much like the soldier, and able to spam rockets in random directions and create this "spam", imagine you're running along and out of a corner and a rocket hits you in the face and takes half /most of your hp, theres no "skill" to that, he simply got lucky and you got unlucky, it happens all the time and i just hope its not as bad in overwatch, i mean i understand that you kind of need classes like that to "please" everyone but i guess im just biased as i was a big RTCW:ET player.
Tldr: Less projectile weapons and more hitscan weapons please Overwatch.
You are misinformed. If you play enough quake you know "spamming" itself is a whole body of knowledge. In quake I think rockets aren't as strong though so it's more balanced out. Ammo is limited. Time is limited. If you spam an area you're not spamming another area. And if you miss you've just wasted a rocket (the rocket gun only comes with 10 rockets).
I admit I have never played TF2 and I could be wrong on certain things. In quake the opponent could be anywhere, and if you spam like an idiot you're wasting ammo, revealing your position, and you risk not being able to shoot if you need an important shot due to cooldown. When I play I need to keep track of my opponent's location. At the same time it's our job to dodge and avoid the spammed rockets/plasma gun
I do realise that there is also another difference in quake where everyone can use all the weapons.
Also, in quake, prediction shots are also used with non hitscan weapons.
They only appear random to the uninitiated. I play quake at a low level and I applaud and cheer when my brother hits me with a well timed and aimed prediction rocket. Of course I cheer like crazy too when I manage to predict his movements correctly. Spamming is also used to prevent or discourage a person from moving into an area, or at least to slow him down, while you go on doing something else.
Check this out this video commentary by the top quake pro. Everything I've mentioned will be apparent in this clip. Projectile shots increase the depth of the game by so much, at least for quake. They manage to land quite a number of prediction shots too because well they are great at reading each other.
You say I am "misinformed" yet you have never played a single game of TF2 and start talking about Quake, a game I didn't even mention in my post. I have actually played both these games, and they are different, the spam in quake is nowhere near as much as tf2 for many reasons, main one being that quake is a solo / ffa game while tf2 is a team based game where you're entire team can focus "spam" on a certain point with almost unlimited ammo.
And about projectile weapons, I was talking about explosive projectile's like pipe bombs / rockets that can 2 shot a lot of classes, the main problem with rockets is the splash damage is too big though so you can simply shoot at random places on the ground hoping to hurt your target. I don't really mind these classes actually I simply disagreed that demo man had highest skill cap and that hitscan or even non explosive projectile's had higher skill cap. (there isn't many non explosive projectile's in TF2 so I didn't mention them in my first post.)
The only type of class that really bothers me in TF2 is pyro, you can go full w+m1 mode and still manage to kill people no matter how bad you are, my 8 year old niece can do that. As long as Overwatch doesn't have a class like that i'll be happy.
And again I just want to point out I wasn't talking about projectile weapons but the explosive / splash damage weapons.
On September 29 2015 20:23 Pandemona wrote: Beta is Q3 2015 yea? Or is it going to be Q1 2016? TT
"Fall tenth" is the start date of beta, whatever that may mean. My guess would be in October - at the latest it will be at Blizzcon I bet, probably before that though.
On September 26 2015 03:52 Reaps wrote: I actually disagree with the whole demoman / soldier having highest skill cap, i just don't think that classes with projectile weapons can be harder to play than classes with hitscan weapons (scout). With projectile weapons there is always an element of luck involved, you need to predict which way your enemy is going to run / jump yes but if they do move the opposite direction you will miss, you simply cant land 100% of shots no matter how good your aim is unlike hitscan weapons. Also one of the reasons i sometimes disliked TF2 was the spam... random rockets, random pipe grenades, simply ruined the fun a lot of the time and slowed down the pace of the game.
That brings me to probably the only thing i am worried about in Overwatch, when i see classes like pharah who is obviously very much like the soldier, and able to spam rockets in random directions and create this "spam", imagine you're running along and out of a corner and a rocket hits you in the face and takes half /most of your hp, theres no "skill" to that, he simply got lucky and you got unlucky, it happens all the time and i just hope its not as bad in overwatch, i mean i understand that you kind of need classes like that to "please" everyone but i guess im just biased as i was a big RTCW:ET player.
Tldr: Less projectile weapons and more hitscan weapons please Overwatch.
You are misinformed. If you play enough quake you know "spamming" itself is a whole body of knowledge. In quake I think rockets aren't as strong though so it's more balanced out. Ammo is limited. Time is limited. If you spam an area you're not spamming another area. And if you miss you've just wasted a rocket (the rocket gun only comes with 10 rockets).
I admit I have never played TF2 and I could be wrong on certain things. In quake the opponent could be anywhere, and if you spam like an idiot you're wasting ammo, revealing your position, and you risk not being able to shoot if you need an important shot due to cooldown. When I play I need to keep track of my opponent's location. At the same time it's our job to dodge and avoid the spammed rockets/plasma gun
I do realise that there is also another difference in quake where everyone can use all the weapons.
Also, in quake, prediction shots are also used with non hitscan weapons.
They only appear random to the uninitiated. I play quake at a low level and I applaud and cheer when my brother hits me with a well timed and aimed prediction rocket. Of course I cheer like crazy too when I manage to predict his movements correctly. Spamming is also used to prevent or discourage a person from moving into an area, or at least to slow him down, while you go on doing something else.
Check this out this video commentary by the top quake pro. Everything I've mentioned will be apparent in this clip. Projectile shots increase the depth of the game by so much, at least for quake. They manage to land quite a number of prediction shots too because well they are great at reading each other.
You say I am "misinformed" yet you have never played a single game of TF2 and start talking about Quake, a game I didn't even mention in my post. I have actually played both these games, and they are different, the spam in quake is nowhere near as much as tf2 for many reasons, main one being that quake is a solo / ffa game while tf2 is a team based game where you're entire team can focus "spam" on a certain point with almost unlimited ammo.
And about projectile weapons, I was talking about explosive projectile's like pipe bombs / rockets that can 2 shot a lot of classes, the main problem with rockets is the splash damage is too big though so you can simply shoot at random places on the ground hoping to hurt your target. I don't really mind these classes actually I simply disagreed that demo man had highest skill cap and that hitscan or even non explosive projectile's had higher skill cap. (there isn't many non explosive projectile's in TF2 so I didn't mention them in my first post.)
The only type of class that really bothers me in TF2 is pyro, you can go full w+m1 mode and still manage to kill people no matter how bad you are, my 8 year old niece can do that. As long as Overwatch doesn't have a class like that i'll be happy.
And again I just want to point out I wasn't talking about projectile weapons but the explosive / splash damage weapons.
Right I misunderstood your post especially since I was focusing on the tldr
So actually you're not really against projectile weapons or explosive/spalsh but just bad game design (eg balancing it by limiting the spalsh range and/or damage, ammo, cooldown etc)
On September 29 2015 21:04 Salteador Neo wrote: Is it me or Junkrat looks like a ripoff from demoman? Didn't even watch the vid, but the weapon looks like the same.
He doesn't have sticky bombs, which is why I went with the Nader comparison instead (he has both of her exact moves, the nade launcher and the martyrdom). But yeah with the nade launcher.
EPT
I misunderstood your post especially since I was focusing on the tldr
