EPTGeneral Discussion - Page 12
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Please be advised: We will be closing this General thread in 24 hours. It will remain searchable. After that we will require new threads to discuss topics. Questions should go in the stickied Q&A thread, screenshots and PotG will go in the PotG sticky, QQ/Rage/Complaints should go in the QQ/Rage thread. If you want to talk about maps or strategies open a new thread. Any comments or concerns will be logged please forward them to ZeromuS. This new forum is still fluid so we will try this out. General TL rules will still apply to new threads. | ||
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DEN1ED
United States1087 Posts
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Aando
1304 Posts
On November 09 2014 02:37 beg wrote: Yes it can and yes it was. How are people still taking a shit on consoles? Can you not remember the GM toss who was playing with a controller? I wouldn't call Quake "the pinnacle of fast paced FPS". There's been other great games, revolving around very different ideas, yet allow for a fast paced gameplay, such as the old Team Fortress titles (including TFC, loving it. Excluding TF2, cause it has been stripped of absolutely everything. I mean everything. Literally everything.). Now Overwatch will be an entirely new beast. We didn't really have a hero shooter like that yet. I can only wonder how that's gonna turn out. Come on, Quake being the pinnacle of fast paced FPS was an obvious joke on his part... + Show Spoiler + ...because everyone knows that UT is the pinnacle of fast paced FPS  | ||
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Dubag
Australia82 Posts
On November 09 2014 02:37 beg wrote: How are people still taking a shit on consoles? Can you not remember the GM toss who was playing with a controller? I wouldn't call Quake "the pinnacle of fast paced FPS". There's been other great games, revolving around very different ideas, yet allow for a fast paced gameplay, such as the old Team Fortress titles (including TFC, loving it). Now Overwatch will be an entirely new beast. We didn't really have a hero shooter like that yet. I can only wonder how that's gonna turn out. People talk shit on consoles because they are slower and more clumsy than a mouse and keyboard. I remember the GM toss playing with a xbox controller...Good for him but he's never going to be close to top tier. If you put a keyboard+mouse vs a controller in the same game the keyboard+mouse wins. Especially in FPS. If you can show me a pro controller player I'll gladly link you a bunch of other keyboard+mouse players who are better. I don't even know why you want to argue that point. What FPS titles would you put above Quake? (In terms of highest skill ceiling). The best way I've heard it described is: Anyone who is good at Quake will be good at any other FPS game. How many games would work in reverse? (eg: A good Quake player will be good at Overwatch. A good Overwatch player probably won't be good at Quake). EDIT: Aando GTFO with your double tap dodge bs.  Bow to the King | ||
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iXphobos
Germany1465 Posts
On November 09 2014 02:52 Dubag wrote: People talk shit on consoles because they are slower and more clumsy than a mouse and keyboard. I remember the GM toss playing with a xbox controller...Good for him but he's never going to be close to top tier. If you put a keyboard+mouse vs a controller in the same game the keyboard+mouse wins. What FPS titles would you put above Quake? (In terms of highest skill ceiling). The best way I've heard it described is: Anyone who is good at Quake will be good at any other FPS game. How many games would work in reverse? (eg: A good Quake player will be good at Overwatch. A good Overwatch player probably won't be good at Quake). Not any FPS game i might add. Fast paced movement shooters, yes. But a good Quake player doesn't make a good CS player. ;P | ||
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Dubag
Australia82 Posts
On November 09 2014 02:56 iXphobos wrote: Not any FPS game i might add. Fast paced movement shooters, yes. But a good Quake player doesn't make a good CS player. ;P CS is probably the only real argument (UT is basically in the same vein as Quake). They have a lot of the same skillsets but they are just used completely differently. I would still argue that Quake is a better foundation so to speak. | ||
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beg
991 Posts
On November 09 2014 02:46 udgnim wrote: poor choice of words by me the number of console players that desire to play a Quake style game with a controller are an extremely niche market Well... this is not about the desire to play a Quake style game. I was only making a point that you can play skill based games on consoles. And to be honest, people did love the Quake games on consoles. But Quake died out... both on console and on PC. It seems that Quake style games don't work anymore. CS1.6 never died out. It's as old as Q3, but didn't die whatsoever. It attracted 100k+ viewer numbers on major tournaments, more than SC2 (talking late 2012, while CSGO was about to be released). BUT QUAKE DIED. Why? People dont want to play it anymore (WHICH IS A PITY, I STILL PLAY IT, I'M A DEFRAG PLAYER!!! Defrag is about the movement part of the game... jumping through challenging maps... one of the most fun things I've ever tried. CS1.6 and Team Fortress (not 2) have similar maps.) Sorry for offtopic. Just had to express my love for Quake, after talking down so much  . But it's the truth, Quake doesn't work anymore. If it would, QL would be a much bigger game.BACK TO THE POINT: I was saying, you can play skill based games on consoles. So nothing speaks against Blizzard making Overwatch super skill based, but they probably won't. So I probably won't play it?! But I'm surely gonna try it out. PS: Team Fortress 2 was a boring boring mess. It was stripped of literally everything that made TF and TFC fun. Most of those poor people probably never knew... they were victims of "free to play"  . RIP real Team Fortress | ||
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Dubag
Australia82 Posts
On November 09 2014 03:00 beg wrote: the whole post. Fair enough. I just wasn't understanding why you thought console gamers could complete at a top level with keyboard/mouse. (I mean they obviously can play competitive, Halo LAN finals etc speak to that...but it's never going to reach the same level. I do know what defrag is, I linked to the Final Torture video in an earlier post (well worth a look because it's pretty phenomenal). I think I also mentioned elsewhere that I think arena/fast-paced FPS can work...it just needs a huge company to back it. Think about it...what big esports titles have come out lately that were from a smaller company? None. BW, SC2, CoD, LOL, Dota 2 etc. It's not that they are doing anything incredible esports wise (they are to certain extents) but games like Hearthstone having an esports backing is ridiculous really. It would take a company like Valve to regenerate arena FPS imo, but I also think Quake would be hard pressed to be improved on. I don't think console success has anything to do with it either, considering LOL and Dota 2. One of the reasons why I think games like Quake don't work anymore is because people want a quick fix, but then they also get bored and move on quickly. If they can't get quick enjoyment out of the game (ie: be competitive) they move on. But if the ground work was there I think it would work well. (Personally I think a lot of the reason for Quake failing was lack of support by iD. | ||
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SKC
Brazil18828 Posts
WoT wasn't from a huge company, HoN wasn't from a huge company, CS wasn't originally from a huge company, WC3 Dota wasn't supported by a major company, etc. Fighting games didn't get big because of the support of the developers, even though some of them were made by big developers. | ||
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Slaughter
United States20255 Posts
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Dubag
Australia82 Posts
On November 09 2014 03:22 SKC wrote: Riot was a smaller company.... Of course you won't find any example of a huge title by a small company because when the title gets huge the company will obviously also grow. WoT wasn't from a huge company, HoN wasn't from a huge company, CS wasn't originally from a huge company, WC3 Dota wasn't supported by a major company, etc. Fighting games didn't get big because of the support of the developers, even though some of them were made by big developers. Yes I agree with what you are saying. My point is for an arena FPS game to get back into the big stage it would have to be backed by Valve or another such company. It's like how Blizzard has the RTS esports scene on lockdown. I can't picture a small up-and-coming company dethroning Blizzard for the number 1 RTS esports title (even if they did make a better game). RIOT and whoever made HoN basically took a good idea and ran with it. Riot became huge, the only company to challenge them is Valve in that regard. There is little to no room for a smaller company to even breathe in there and come out ahead. Blizzard is like the small fish in that pond at the moment. Missing out on all the free food and trying to find it's own place in HotS (Which it has done well). Basically I'm fully agreeing with what you just said (though I can't speak on WoT) but you are kinda backing up my argument. Can you picture a new upstart company taking over the esports market using a clone of CSGO? No. Which is why I think arena FPS is basically done. Quake was the best of it's kind, It's not worth trying to do the same thing anymore unless you have the huge backing that a company like Blizzard or Valve does. (Which is why I said I think games like Hearthstone are only big because of who made them). | ||
Plexa
Aotearoa39261 Posts
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beg
991 Posts
On November 09 2014 02:52 Dubag wrote: People talk shit on consoles because they are slower and more clumsy than a mouse and keyboard. I remember the GM toss playing with a xbox controller...Good for him but he's never going to be close to top tier. If you put a keyboard+mouse vs a controller in the same game the keyboard+mouse wins. Especially in FPS. If you can show me a pro controller player I'll gladly link you a bunch of other keyboard+mouse players who are better. I don't even know why you want to argue that point. What FPS titles would you put above Quake? (In terms of highest skill ceiling). The best way I've heard it described is: Anyone who is good at Quake will be good at any other FPS game. How many games would work in reverse? (eg: A good Quake player will be good at Overwatch. A good Overwatch player probably won't be good at Quake). EDIT: Aando GTFO with your double tap dodge bs. Bow to the King You didnt mention you were talking about skill ceiling specifically, but either way, why would you believe Team Fortress was less skilled based than Quake? Also, someone who is good at Quake will not be good at CS CS1.6 is a really deep game. It has a movement system, not dissimilar to Quake3, yet completely unique. On top of that, it requires a certain game sense revolving around stealthing skills. Also, the weapons need recoil control, which is an art in itself. On November 09 2014 03:45 Plexa wrote: I'm not sure I agree with that. If any large company makes a genuinely fun to play Arena FPS game which gains popularity I'm sure it can be a successful esport. Of course, the prerequisite for that is for the game to actually be fun which is easier said than done. I think if we ever want a new arena shooter getting really big again, it's gonna need some kind of twist, such as... heroes. Maybe. ... I know nothing about Overwatch now, but I'd be excited to see it become such a game. But I'm afraid it'll be quite the casual game. (IMAGINE THEY WOULD USE THE QUAKE3 MOVEMENt, LOL!!! I'D CUM IN MY PANTS) | ||
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SKC
Brazil18828 Posts
On November 09 2014 03:41 Dubag wrote: Yes I agree with what you are saying. My point is for an arena FPS game to get back into the big stage it would have to be backed by Valve or another such company. It's like how Blizzard has the RTS esports scene on lockdown. I can't picture a small up-and-coming company dethroning Blizzard for the number 1 RTS esports title (even if they did make a better game). RIOT and whoever made HoN basically took a good idea and ran with it. Riot became huge, the only company to challenge them is Valve in that regard. There is little to no room for a smaller company to even breathe in there and come out ahead. Blizzard is like the small fish in that pond at the moment. Missing out on all the free food and trying to find it's own place in HotS (Which it has done well). Basically I'm fully agreeing with what you just said (though I can't speak on WoT) but you are kinda backing up my argument. Can you picture a new upstart company taking over the esports market using a clone of CSGO? No. Which is why I think arena FPS is basically done. Quake was the best of it's kind, It's not worth trying to do the same thing anymore unless you have the huge backing that a company like Blizzard or Valve does. (Which is why I said I think games like Hearthstone are only big because of who made them). If the game picks up hype, it doesn't matter if it was from a big company. All it matters is if people want to play it. A new company making an RTS wont be able to compete because there is no market for RTS, not many people like playing them. If any company created a fast paced FPS that was fun to play and attracted the masses it could become huge. Either way, there is no saturated market for Arena FPS'. There is not a single title that's actually big. A small company took over the market by making a Dota clone, even though people still believe the original was the best of it's kind, because people were not playing Dota anymore. You can apply that to either HoN or LoL. The same situation Quake would be in. | ||
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Jusba
Finland189 Posts
I miss simple but hard shooters :/. | ||
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Dubag
Australia82 Posts
On November 09 2014 03:45 beg wrote: You didnt mention you were talking about skill ceiling specifically ??? On November 09 2014 03:45 beg wrote: CS1.6 is a really deep game. It has a movement system, not dissimilar to Quake3, yet completely unique. On top of that, it requires a certain game sense revolving around stealthing skills. Also, the weapons need recoil control, which is an art in itself. Once again I agree. I suppose it's how you feel about either game since I think CS is probably the closest in terms of skill ceiling. They have a lot of similarities...positioning, pathing, raw aim, weapon control, movement, etc... Timing, weapon selection, map control, item control, in and out of control play, etc... are big parts of Quake as well, as is individual playstyle (which is cool to watch at a high level). On the flip side to that, CS has the teamplay element (which is evident in Quake...but Quake is mainly a duel mode at the high level). On November 09 2014 03:58 SKC wrote: If the game picks up hype, it doesn't matter if it was from a big company. All it matters is if people want to play it. A new company making an RTS wont be able to compete because there is no market for RTS, not many people like playing them. If any company created a fast paced FPS that was fun to play and attracted the masses it could become huge. This is basically what I'm saying. The potential is there, the means aren't. If you are a small time company with a better RTS game about to come out at the same time as SC3...your game is stuffed. You can't compete because of the position Blizzard is in. A smaller company can't generate the hype a large one can. If hearthstone was made by 'SKC and Co' you wouldn't see one streamed event. There is a market for RTS games, as evidenced by the tens of thousands of viewers watching WCS. There just isn't a market for another esports RTS title until Blizzard puts a 3 at the end of SC. (Basically...or another big breakthrough). | ||
Spaylz
Japan1743 Posts
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Dubag
Australia82 Posts
On November 09 2014 04:39 Spaylz wrote: So, can this be considered as Blizzard's equivalent of "Your move, Gabe"? No, it's basically "We like the move you made Gabe...we're going to copy it." | ||
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GumBa
United Kingdom31935 Posts
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LaNague
Germany9118 Posts
At least they go out of their comfort zone. So, can this be considered as Blizzard's equivalent of "Your move, Gabe"? Uhm, Steam, TF, dota 2. vs 2 alpha games and ....battlenet downloader? | ||
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The_Red_Viper
19533 Posts
On November 09 2014 05:42 LaNague wrote: what a shame, i hate FPS just as much as cardgames. At least they go out of their comfort zone. It is FPS, but the importance of aiming is reduced, you have 4 abilities with each hero afaik | ||
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