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World Championship reunification match begins tomorrow.
Background:
In 1993, due to a growing dissatisfaction of the world chess organization, World Champion Garry Kasparov and challenger Nigel Short announced that they would play their title match outside the jurisdiction of FIDE. Their decision and subsequent events created a schism in the World Championship which continued to this day. Kasparov continued to defend his title, and in the year 2000 he lost a title match to Vladimir Kramnik, who thereby became the 14th Classical World Chess Champion.
In 2005, the FIDE Championship featured eight of the strongest players (but not Kramnik) in a double round-robin tournament in San Luis, Argentina. Leaving competitors in his dust, Bulgarian grandmaster Veselin Topalov won 6 out of his first 7 games, and was soon crowned FIDE World Chess Champion.
In September 2006, these two giants will face off for a 12 game reunification match in Elista, Kalmykia. For the first time in over 13 years, the winner will be declared the one and only World Chess Champion.
Time Controls:
120 minutes for the first 40 moves, 60 minutes for the next 20 moves and then 15 minutes for the rest of the game plus an additional 30 seconds per move starting from move 61.
Obligatory poll:
Poll: Pick the winner
(Vote): Topalov
(Vote): Kramnik
Topalov ftw
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I don't know. Fill me in on this one chess is very cool
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Basically, in 1993, world champion Garry Kasparov broke away from FIDE, the organization that has traditionally hosted the championship match. Since then there has been two world champions: The Classical world champion (Garry Kasparov, until he lost to Kramnik in 2000) and the FIDE world champion, currently Veselin Topalov. Now they are facing off to reunite the two titles.
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I don't see anyone beating Topalov in a match in his current form.
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ok so who's the king and why? and Kasparov is retired?
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Kasparov retired a while ago after the FIDE WC fiasco, he had prepared for a match with Kazimdzhanov, but it never happened. We did see some of his legendary opening preparation in his last games at Linares, and a glimpse of what might have been as he crushed Kaz with Black. This was all a result of his and Short's decision to split from FIDE (as BlackJack said). It would've been a unification match. Instead, Kramnik, being the classical title holder, defended against Peter Leko, and avoided any unification match till now.
Topalov is liked for his aggressive style, so in a way he is taking on the mantle of Kasparov in the battle of dynamism vs. solid positional play. I think Topalov will win, but I'd like to see good form from Kramnik.
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This match will show who is the real king.
And Kramnik is very good match player, while Topalov don't have such big experience in matches.
Also Kramnik plays very unsuitable chess for Topalov.
With this said I think chances are 50-50 right now.
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Bill307
Canada9103 Posts
On September 22 2006 15:40 BlackJack wrote:Basically, in 1993, world champion Garry Kasparov broke away from FIDE, the organization that has traditionally hosted the championship match. Since then there has been two world champions: The Classical world champion (Garry Kasparov, until he lost to Kramnik in 2000) and the FIDE world champion, currently Veselin Topalov. Now they are facing off to reunite the two titles.
Thanks. I understand what's going on now  .
I have no idea what the Chess scene is like, but if he went 6-?-? out of 7 then I'm betting Topalov will take The One Title.
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Kramnik should have this in the bag, since his match play is par none.
if it was a tourny then Topalov would win, but Kramnik turtles like a mofo as black (to use a sc annology) and is one tough cookie to get a win out of. And since drawsare as good as wins with black in match play....
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draw=win if you control black? lol why
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United States20661 Posts
On September 22 2006 16:48 Patriot.dlk wrote:
draw=win if you control black? lol why
white has slight advantage. so if you draw with black, you're ahead.
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I don't really get the time control thing?
If it's 120 minutes for first 40 moves and then 60 minutes for the next 20 moves, why can't they just do 180 minutes for the first 60 moves?
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On September 22 2006 16:56 penitent exile wrote:
[removed quote within quote]
white has slight advantage. so if you draw with black, you're ahead.
that does not make sense to me
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intrigue
Washington, D.C9933 Posts
On September 22 2006 17:06 Patriot.dlk wrote:
[removed quote within quote]
that does not make sense to me
white moves first, and so has a slight advantage. so if they end up drawing, black progressed further.
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But the advantage from moving first seems to be a little to little to losing every draw? Well I guess not seing it's the official rule=p
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On September 22 2006 17:02 Cambium wrote:
I don't really get the time control thing?
If it's 120 minutes for first 40 moves and then 60 minutes for the next 20 moves, why can't they just do 180 minutes for the first 60 moves?
Many games don't go past those first 40 moves, so the extra 60 minutes can't be used unless it's a really long game.
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I think that Kramnik will take this match. Provided that he's in good form and healthy (no problems here as far as I can see), Kramnik should be able to neutralize Topalov with black and press home a couple of positions as white. That said, it's only a 12 game match (why not 24?!), so I anticipate, if the Leko-Kramnik match is anything to go by, only 2-3 decisive games. As a drawn match gives the title to Kramnik, Kramnik is perfectly happy with a draw every single game. Kramnik's health might become an issue later on in the match, so no matter what the score is, don't count out Topalov until it's over.
Basically, re: the white versus black debate: White generally dictates the flow of the game from move one. This leads to positions where, since he got the first move, he has a minor advantage (at least at these exalted levels of play and preparation).
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On September 22 2006 17:27 Patriot.dlk wrote:
But the advantage from moving first seems to be a little to little to losing every draw? Well I guess not seing it's the official rule=p
i don't think they mean that it gets translated into a win, just that black drawing is a "good" play for the black player.
On September 22 2006 17:02 Cambium wrote:
I don't really get the time control thing?
If it's 120 minutes for first 40 moves and then 60 minutes for the next 20 moves, why can't they just do 180 minutes for the first 60 moves?
so that if someone takes over 120 minutes to do the first 40 moves then they will lose
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Hm, I understood everything that happened in that game, yep.
(HEAD EXPLODES LIKE 25 TIMES LOLOLOLOLOLOLOL |-_-|-_-|
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ugh i'm feeling dumb and don't understand why black didn't take the rook at
40 ...Ke7
there must be some really simple mate afterwards that i'm missing or??
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White's bishop can slide to e4. Checks the king and then capture black's rook. Pawn would then have free range.
Black would have been pawned. hahahaha so nerdy 
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how can they see so far in the future?
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On September 22 2006 19:57 mr.bad wrote:
how can they see so far in the future?
beacuse most times you don't have to actually read that far in advance. i would say that most positions (read non-combination freindly ones) require maybe at most a 3 move tree (a "tree" meaning what it would look like if you diagramed it out) to read out. Such a tree requires no extreme calculations and is fairly easy to do for most people, now evalutating the end result is what really seperates the best players.
Combinations on the other hand sometimes require much deeper trees, sometimes 9-10 or more moves. However here there are shortcuts in caluation, forcing moves, forced moves, clearly supiror postions, or mate threats all cut down potential large sections of the tree beacuse the moves are more or less forced to go down a logical path. thus the premutations are not so duanting as they may first seem, but again evaluating the end position is vital (seeing how it will play out in advance does nothing if it is a worse position for you).
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Cayman Islands24199 Posts
I've been waiting for this for a while now. ^^
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i really hope that topalov takes this since i like his style more. however, kramnik is one tough cookie when it comes to matches.
for those that dont follow chess that much it can be hard to understand why one player can be good at matches especially, they play chess the same way they play in tournaments right?
well, in matches where several games are played against the same oponent specific preparation becomes crucial, and in the field kramnik is arguably the best in the world. the best example is when kramnik wrested the title from kasparov ( Topalov is the logical heir to the dynamic style of chess which was the signum of Kaspaov ) by cleverly stearing the games into well rehearsed endgames where kaspaov felt uncomfortable.
As i see it Topalov probably is the slightly stronger player over all. But his lack of match experience makes this a toss up. Also Kramnik has shown that he is capable of shutting down players with similar style to Tpalov.
The unknown factor is Kramniks current healthcondition. He is suffering from some sort of rheumatic disease which has kept him from serious competition for quite some time.
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Kramnik, slow and steady, always comes through.
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I voted for Kramnik.
I prefer his machine flawless gamestyle over Topalov's aggressiveness, but let's see
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Personally I think Kramnik will win, but I'll be rooting for Topa
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Can`t wait! Does anyone know if you need a premium membership at chessgames.com to watch the fames live?
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On September 22 2006 19:20 Locked wrote:
[removed quote within quote]
ugh i'm feeling dumb and don't understand why black didn't take the rook at
40 ...Ke7
there must be some really simple mate afterwards that i'm missing or??
If he did that then B-e4 forks the King and Rook....trading Rooks is not good for black.
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On September 23 2006 00:24 mdb wrote:
Can`t wait! Does anyone know if you need a premium membership at chessgames.com to watch the fames live?
You do not. Get it directly from the world championship site. http://www.worldchess2006.com/main.asp?id=918
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Yeah, I guess I will watch teh moves on the official site and kibitz on chessgames . One hour to go !!! Go Topa. In Bulgarian Top = rook
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1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e6 3.Nf3 d5 4.g3 dxc4 5.Bg2 Bb4+ 6.Bd2 a5 7.Qc2 Bxd2+ 8.Qxd2 c6 9.a4 b5 10. axb5 cxb5 11.Qg5 0-0 12.Qxb5 Ba6
They are playing fast, suppose they both are prepred well for Catalan.
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where did u get those moves from ?
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Official site has coverage, also u can see moves, at playchess, chessbase, chassgames....many sites are covering the match..
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i see .. thx .. btw is the coverage from the official site working ? cuz at the games section i can only see an empty game 1
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If u have yava aplett already opened u need to click on "Kramnik Vladimir vs Toplaove Veselin", down under the board.
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Topalov is in good form and although kramnik is better in matchs than tounys if you're in form its hard to beat you.
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black are in good position now
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i cant read chess, i need a program to see move by move T_T
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it's a java applet.. you can see it move by move..
Anyway, who's winning? They both have exactly the same pieces. To me it looks like white has slightly better positioning now, but I'm not good at chess..
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GM Kramnik,Vladimir(RUS) (2743) - GM Topalov,Veselin(BUL) (2813)
World Championship Match Elista (1), 23.09.2006
[Holger_Lieske]
1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e6 3.Nf3 d5 4.g3 dxc4 5.Bg2 Bb4+ 6.Bd2 a5 7.Qc2 Bxd2+ 8.Qxd2 c6 9.a4 b5 10.axb5 cxb5 11.Qg5 0-0 12.Qxb5 Ba6 13.Qa4 Qb6 14.0-0 Qxb2 15.Nbd2 Bb5 16.Nxc4 Bxa4 17.Nxb2 Bb5 18.Ne5 Ra7 19.Bf3 Nbd7 20.Nec4 Rb8 21.Rfb1 g5 22.e3 g4 23.Bd1 Bc6 24.Rc1 Be4 25.Na4 Rb4 26.Nd6 Bf3 27.Bxf3 gxf3 28.Nc8 Ra8 29.Ne7+ Kg7 30.Nc6 Rb3 31.Nc5 Rb5 32.h3 Nxc5 33.Rxc5 Rb2 34.Rg5+ Kh6 35.Rgxa5 Rxa5 36.Nxa5 Ne4 37.Rf1 Nd2 38.Rc1 Ne4 39.Rf1 f6 40.Nc6 Nd2 41.Rd1 Ne4 42.Rf1 Kg6 Line
Black sacrificed a pawn, in return for getting some positional pressure: His rook is on the second rank, his knight is on a beautiful square and black's king is more active than white's. Not to mention that with Nd2 -> Ne4 he could probably force a draw whenever he wanted. White's main problem is trying to get his knight into play somehow.
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Actually, while a draw is still the most probable result, Kramnik has the winning chances here. (@ move 53)
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If the game score is correct, then Topalov seems to have just thrown the game away. Maybe an improvement would be to sacrifice the Knight on f2 (black's move 57), then give perp check on the first and second rank with the rook?
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Yes, f5 could be a blunder. However, the engines are still saying it's a draw so I'm not going to say Kramnik already won. Especially considering I never read endgame positions right in GM games :-).
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What engine are you using? Fritz 8/9 gives a clear 1.5-2 pawns advantage after the 57... f5 blunder.
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Topa should have been playing for a draw =/
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Kramnik is now a close to a lock for this.
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On September 23 2006 11:46 BlackJack wrote:
Topa should have been playing for a draw =/
Topalov never plays for a draw.
In one article I read that his psyhologist forbided him to make draw if there are slimmest chances to win. On the other hand - to win almost equal position against top GM - you must risk. So did Topalov today and failed. No big deal - I believe in him
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Sweden33719 Posts
On September 23 2006 13:35 Shymon wrote:
Kramnik is now a close to a lock for this.
Hum, I don't play chess but can you explain to me why winning 1 game matters THAT much? Or is it HOW he won?
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On September 23 2006 13:51 FrozenArbiter wrote:
[removed quote within quote]
Hum, I don't play chess but can you explain to me why winning 1 game matters THAT much? Or is it HOW he won?
It's only a 12 game match and most chess games at this level end in a draw. Kramnik has somewhat of a reputation for being "draw happy." Now Kramnik will most likely play a "draw with black, win with white" strategy. Conservative, boring, and the reason a lot of people don't like his style.
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FrozenArbiter, chess at this level isn't like Starcraft; draws are *more* likely to happen than someone actually winning. Especially with a player as rock-solid as Kramnik, who doesn't usually push for a win and now has to lose *2* games in 11 games to lose the title. Anyone see it happening? Another thing to notice is that an early win, especially one by Kramnik, puts psychological pressure on his opponent to try and press home small advantages that ordinarily, Topalov would simply draw. This could lead to Topalov overpressing and putting him at an even greater disadvantage.
Topalov pressing today may have been a test to see how well Kramnik would fare in a long game and perhaps, even try and break him down physically down a bit for later in the match. It certainly wasn't worth a loss and the match is only 12 games, so I don't know if it was such a good idea (hindsight being 20-20 and all)...
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this is beutiful. Go kramnik.. And the possibility of draw is what makes GO a better game
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Ay Carumba! Topalov missing a clear, forced win at move 32 doesn't happen often. According to Fritz, white was up by 7-8 pawns!
GM Topalov,Veselin(BUL) (2813) - GM Kramnik,Vladimir(RUS) (2743)
World Championship Match Elista (2), 24.09.2006
[Robot 2]
1.d4 d5 2.c4 c6 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.Nf3 dxc4 5.a4 Bf5 6.e3 e6 7.Bxc4 Bb4 8.0-0 Nbd7 9.Qe2 Bg6 10.e4 0-0 11.Bd3 Bh5 12.e5 Nd5 13.Nxd5 cxd5 14.Qe3 Bg6 15.Ng5 Re8 16.f4 Bxd3 17.Qxd3 f5 18.Be3 Nf8 19.Kh1 Rc8 20.g4 Qd7 21.Rg1 Be7 GM Short: Ne6! 22.Nf3 Rc4 23.Rg2 fxg4 24.Rxg4 Rxa4 25.Rag1 g6 26.h4 Rb4 27.h5 Qb5 28.Qc2 Rxb2 29.hxg6 h5 30.g7 hxg4 31.gxf8Q+ Bxf8 32.Qg6+ Bg7 Line
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HiFi's sig is very appropriate to this thread
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topalov gonna win this i think
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Kramnik has a strong advantage for me.
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It`s a pity that Topalov could have made one of the best games ever and now he is losing
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Playchess works fine. Go to www.chessbase.com and download the client, enter in as a guest and enter the broadcast room.
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How could have topalov won?
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if he doesnt Rc1 at the 36th move , he should Bh6
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Where is the commentator (Christiansen?) inputting the moves? ICC?
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On September 24 2006 08:03 Agone wrote:
How could have topalov won?
On move 32 there is a forced mate for white - 32.Qg6 [32.Rxg4+ Bg7 33.Qc7 Qf1+ 34.Ng1]
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On September 24 2006 08:12 goldrush wrote:
[removed quote within quote]
Where is the commentator (Christiansen?) inputting the moves? ICC?
I dont know. I am trying to find out too.
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On September 24 2006 07:57 goldrush wrote:Playchess works fine. Go to www.chessbase.com and download the client, enter in as a guest and enter the broadcast room.
i get server is down
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yeah lolz .
but topolov play like shit man
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lol after Queen exchange , two black pawn a2 b2 gonna rape his ass
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Server back up.
but topolov play like shit man
And if we didn't have computers, we wouldn't be nearly so nitpicky as we are now.
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Why didn't he take the bishop with his pawn in f6? (move 44)
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look like a draw after 56 moves
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its over i think black won
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Once again, Topalov fans will say 'lucky' and Kramnik fans will simply look at the scoreboard, as teams that have just won are wont to do.
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On September 24 2006 10:14 goldrush wrote:
Once again, Topalov fans will say 'lucky' and Kramnik fans will simply look at the scoreboard, as teams that have just won are wont to do.
lol do chess followers really say lucky O_o
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On September 24 2006 07:17 goldrush wrote:
Ay Carumba! Topalov missing a clear, forced win at move 32 doesn't happen often. According to Fritz, white was up by 7-8 pawns!
I really don't understand how Topalov could have missed that. Maybe he is being threatened by the Russian Mafia O_O
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I suspect he tampered with Topalov's yogurt...
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haha 
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It wasn't exactly subtle either: 32. Rxg4+ Bg7 33. Qc7! Qf1+ 34. Ng1 and mate is coming. Come on...
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On September 24 2006 11:54 BlackJack wrote:
[removed quote within quote]
I really don't understand how Topalov could have missed that. Maybe he is being threatened by the Russian Mafia O_O
 check the photos from the even, i bet you'd find a midget somewhere in the background.
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Both of the games show that Topalov is very capable of beating Kramnik so long as he doesn't blunder it away. Don't forget that at Mtel Masters '06 Topalov went 2.5/6 for the first 6 games and then came back and won 4 straight games to win the tournament. This could be a very exciting match if Topalov gets into a rhythm.
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That's true. If Kramnik keeps allowing Topalov opportunities like he did today, sooner or later, Topalov will convert them into a win. But people are paying *way* too much attention, IMO, to Topalov's blunders and acting as if they're the sole reason for the outcomes. Kramnik's blunders, in fact, are what gave Topalov such a chance to win. Look at both sides of the story and realize that while both players blundered, not just Topalov.
While Topalov did go 2.5/6 in Mtel, he also didn't start at -2 and he didn't play the same opponent every single round. Tournaments are very different animals from matches, part of the reason why incredibly strong match players aren't necessary good tournament players and vice versa.
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From chessgames.com :
"Very worrying news from Elista
Danailov (Topalov`s manager) says there are scandalous omissions in the organization of the match and there is a double standart treatment of the players. Topalov is being searched before the games with a mine detector, a device that is not reccommended to be used on people. His rest room is being guarded by 6 policemen and Kramnik's by none. Kramnik used his room in the first game 27 times for a total of 2 hours, while Topalov used it only 3 times for 24 mins. Various people had access to the rooms during the games and there was no camera control. Also there have been a lot of people with mobile phones on and other electronical devices in the playing hall."
I think it was gross mistake to play this match on russian territory. Everything before and during the match is being done to distract and psyche Topalov out. He would have nailed the second game down any day in normal conditions
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On September 24 2006 19:52 goldrush wrote:
That's true. If Kramnik keeps allowing Topalov opportunities like he did today, sooner or later, Topalov will convert them into a win. But people are paying *way* too much attention, IMO, to Topalov's blunders and acting as if they're the sole reason for the outcomes. Kramnik's blunders, in fact, are what gave Topalov such a chance to win. Look at both sides of the story and realize that while both players blundered, not just Topalov.
While Topalov did go 2.5/6 in Mtel, he also didn't start at -2 and he didn't play the same opponent every single round. Tournaments are very different animals from matches, part of the reason why incredibly strong match players aren't necessary good tournament players and vice versa.
The games are also around 70 moves each and Topalov is in better physical condition than Kramnik. This should be an exciting match.
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Cayman Islands24199 Posts
On September 25 2006 03:30 mdb wrote:
From chessgames.com :
"Very worrying news from Elista
Danailov (Topalov`s manager) says there are scandalous omissions in the organization of the match and there is a double standart treatment of the players. Topalov is being searched before the games with a mine detector, a device that is not reccommended to be used on people. His rest room is being guarded by 6 policemen and Kramnik's by none. Kramnik used his room in the first game 27 times for a total of 2 hours, while Topalov used it only 3 times for 24 mins. Various people had access to the rooms during the games and there was no camera control. Also there have been a lot of people with mobile phones on and other electronical devices in the playing hall."
I think it was gross mistake to play this match on russian territory. Everything before and during the match is being done to distract and psyche Topalov out. He would have nailed the second game down any day in normal conditions
bleh, nationalists. if this is true then the world is more fucked up than i have imagined.
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True, but this match has more frequent rest days (after 2 games, there is a rest day) than most tournaments and the match is also fairly short. I don't know if Topalov's better physical conditioning will be as much as factor due tot his short period than... say... the first Kaspaorv-Karpov match.
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Kasparov is the best (ex)World Chess Champion ever. Both Kramnik+Topalov combined together would not be able to beat him in a 12-game match if he had not decided to retire.
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On September 25 2006 23:29 MOBAJOBG wrote:
Kasparov is the best (ex)World Chess Champion ever. Both Kramnik+Topalov combined together would not be able to beat him in a 12-game match if he had not decided to retire.
Kramnik ALREADY defeated The Man-eater (Kasparov) in a match (2000 year IIRC).
And Kasparov is getting older ..., so your state is very doubtfull.
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@One Page Memory
Well, I knew about the fact that Kasparov had lost to Kramnik (who was once upon a time, a former student and protégé of his) as you've mentioned but of course, Kramnik is the best successor to Kasparov and not Topalov or Anand atm.
Out of 2 games played so far between Kramnik and Topalov, Kramnik is leading the series 2-0. Probably more through Topalov overconfidence and reckless mistakes, Kramnik won the first game which should have been a draw and won the second game which should have been a loss.
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This time I agree 100 %.
Looking for entertaining game today. GL to Topalov.
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i have an idea . This game gonna start in about 2 hour . Watching them play for like 6 hour really boring . Why we dont play couple of blitz while watching ? It would be fun and make us know more about each other . Playchess server is the best i think , becasue they broadcast the match as well .
About me I am just a novice player , got around 1200 Blitz after like 65 games there .
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chess at this level is about capitalizing mistakes.
the one player that makes more mistakes will be the eventual loser (if the other player is able to capitalize them). if both players make no mistakes on a perfectly suited position then we have a draw.
people really need to stop saying "oh he won cause the other guy made mistake". It's very easy for everyone sitting at the outside to say that. I would like to see any of them face to face sitting in the chessboard with a monster like Kramnik whose presence is already intimidating right infront of you in the other chair. Errors, that's part of the game, to make mistakes, blunder, choke, fail under pressure.... if not ... ask Kasparov about losing game #6 to deep blue in 1998 (99?) with a blunder move of a textbook opening !
game #1 the f5 move.... what did you expect ? the guy had been playing for 6 frigging hours... do you really expect your brain to work fresh and exactly as it did in the beginning ? They're humans, not machines ....they get tired you know ?
topalov has commited more mistakes than kramnik, and that's why kramnik is winning fare and square to me.
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On September 25 2006 23:29 MOBAJOBG wrote:
Kasparov is the best (ex)World Chess Champion ever. Both Kramnik+Topalov combined together would not be able to beat him in a 12-game match if he had not decided to retire.
I don't understand what you mean ?
Kramnik defeated Kasparov in 2000 +2-0=13 ....... undefeated
The only other player that won a championship match undefeated was Capablanca vs Lasker +4-0=10, and everyone knows Lasker was no match for Capablanca as he was the clear better player and favorite (it was like an OSL final between Midas vs Testie). Kramnik vs Kasparov was like Anytime beating Julyzerg 3-0 in OSL Final
Not even Fischer nor Kasparov himself were able to do that.
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On September 26 2006 03:04 lightman wrote:
game #1 the f5 move.... what did you expect ? the guy had been playing for 6 frigging hours... do you really expect your brain to work fresh and exactly as it did in the beginning ? They're humans, not machines ....they get tired you know ?
well he is fucking pro player , his job is playing chess so ofc we expect his mind is still fresh after even 10 hours .
if you speak like that so why the motherfucking Nada has 13123123 APM , it sound so fucking impossible man
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right Nada has 400 apm..... "f**king proplayer" . -no need to use the brown word by the way, we're all educated persons here and chess players -
let's suppose he gets involved in the longest game ever,,,, 6 hours long and still playing ....do you still expect him to have 400 apm and keep his flawless micro by the sixth hour ?
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6 hour long for chess is like 30-40 min game in SC man
and we all know Nada can have that apm in the whole game like that .
anyway it began . Another Catalan game . They are playing pretty fast
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Gacha we can play if you want.
I don't have account, just guest at palychess.com
Your handle?
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ok meet in the children's room lolz
my ID is cloti
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10x for games gacha
back to work mode
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actually something like 5m+3s is better but you much better than me anyway :D
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And yet, without going into the specifics of the match clauses, Kramnik clearly didn't want to play Kasparov a rematch. Kasparov may have been overconfident going into the first match, true, but he would've been a vastly different opponent the second time around.
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lol reading GMs comment really nice . There are like 10 GMs watching this match and they are talking alot
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@gacha, sure np, next time we play 5+3
That's why I waited after second game - you to challenge me on suitable time control.
It's very frustraiting that being guest I can't write, but no way I am paying for the site.
Anyway I will look for you when I log on playchess.com for few games.
Edit: Wow, I got firebat icon. Hoooooray
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congratz :D
and i cant write either no money sux :D
Krammik is winning again if he 16. Bg5
and he've done that lolz . I think hes cheating
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lol even Garry Kasparov joined us hahahaha
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i heard kramnik has a sprained finger so topolov clearly has the advantage in this one
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Well, exciting draw.
I think it suits both: Kramnik, because match is short, and Topalov because he must lick his wounds of previous two defeats + he had black pieces today.
I predict tomorrow Topa to go all guns blazing to have a chance ...
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Kramnik turned nerd mode on. Impossible to beat
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Game 4 coming up, with Topalov as white. Should be a great game - Topalov basically needs to win this, otherwise Kramnik has one hand on the title.
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From Chessbase
(1) Topalov - Kramnik [D47]
1.d4 d5 2.c4 c6 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.e3 e6 5.Nf3 Nbd7 6.Bd3 dxc4 7.Bxc4 b5 8.Bd3 Bb7 9.a3 b4 10.Ne4 Nxe4 11.Bxe4 bxa3 12.0-0 Bd6 13.b3 Nf6 14.Nd2 [14.Nd2 Nxe4 15.Nxe4 Bxh2+ 16.Kxh2 Qh4+ 17.Kg1 Qxe4 18.f3 Qd5 19.Bxa3 Analysis on Playchess]
14...Qc7 15.Bf3 Bxh2+ 16.Kh1 Bd6 17.Nc4 Local time 15:30h. Seirawan: "Such an interesting position, I will start my broadcast early!" Susan Polgar: "Topalov is playing mind games with Kramnik by playing as fast as possible." Nigel Short: " I am not so sure, Susan. If he has not analysed this all, he is taking terrible risks because the position is already critical." Susan: "Agreed Nigel, I am sure it is all home prep."
17...Be7 18.Bxa3 0-0 19.Bxe7 Qxe7 20.Ra5 Rfd8 *
so far........
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Game 4 ends in a draw. Kramnik is so difficult to beat in match play!
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im disapointed in topalovs opening choices.. i guess he just gave up on trying to breach the berling wall or something. but all of the positions in the games so far seem to be taken from a wet dream of kramniks.  somewhat boring and positional to their nature. i think that if topalov stands any chance to turn this thing around he need to start creating complications earlier.
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Nerd mode or not, I want Kramink to win. He is in my eyes the sole World Champion already, after defeating Kasparov in a match back in 2000. Not many people would be able to come through 14 games with Kasparov and not lose a single game.
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Agreed
Kramnik along with Fischer may be the best match player ever. Like I said, the only other player that won a Championship match undefeated was Capablanca vs Lasker, and Lasker was no match as he was miles behind Capablanca's level, while Kramnnik defeated Kasparov when Garry was still on peak of his play.
As an extra comment, Fischer went through the candidates tournament 12-0 (+6-0=0) vs both Taimanov and Larssen. That is yes, two back to back matches featured six games, six wins no draws no losses vs two Grandmasters and top 10 players of that time. Overall he only lost 1 game in the entire candidates match vs Petrossian, to finish with a +17-1=3= score.
And remember that ok he lost 3 games vs Spassky in the World Championship, but one of those games was a forfiet loss, the other one was Fischer just complaining and playing dumb moves like falling for a poisned pawn (in Bw terms.... like that time midas went firebats in a TvsT game of WCG to lose on purpose)... nothing to say about his 3rd loss.
So objectively he +24-3=14 vs 4 (including two +6-0=0) of the top 10 players including the World Champion
Never seen in chess history.
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Um... Saying Fischer is a great match player just because of a single great run may be exaggerating things. Sure, for about one year he was better than everyone else. No argument with that. But to say that he's the best *match* player ever because of that is a bit stretching it. Same thing with Kramnik. He won in 2000 against Kasparov, that's all well and good. But it takes more than one good match to make "the best match player in history". Just as it takes more than one 2800 performance level in a tournament before a person starts claiming to be the best tournament player ever seen in chess. Somewhere along the line, I think that Kasparov really doesn't get enough credit as a match player too. He lost one World Championship match, sure (let's not get into Comp vs Comp). However, he's defended his title against the likes of Karpov (3/4 times), Nigel Short and Anand. And beaten the latter two fairly decisively.
As for creating complications earlier: I highly doubt it if it is possible, as least with the level of opening preparation these guys should have. The complications that Topalov have tried with his pawn sacrifices are about as 'wild' as you're going to get with Kramnik as Black or White. It's not as easy to play agressively with or against 1. d4 as against 1. e4.
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fifty? Seems kind of exaggerated. I remember Kasparov liked to get up and walk around when playing Fritz on ESPN.
Here's what Eric Schiller, international chess arbiter, author, and FIDE master said at CG.com:
I can comment on crime makes trips to the bathroom. This came up in the 2000 match against Kasparov, and it turns out that Kramnik has a condition which causes frequent bathroom visits. That's all there is to it.
Oh yeah, about Topalov's Mananger
From the Ottawa Chess Club board:
GM Kevin Spraggett:
"I know a little bit about Topalov because he lives in Spain, less than 200 miles from where I live in Portugal. From time to time I see him, and once I even slept over at his apartment. He is a very simple and kind person. Easy to like, too.
In Bulgaria he was a chess prodigy of sorts, but not like Kasparov. His talent developed in a different way and rhythm. He had no state support. But when he was about 12 years old Danailov, his actual trainer and companion, spoke to Topalov’s family and got permission to personally train him.
Danailov took Topalov to his apartment and told him ‘From now on, you live here and this will become your new home. I am not just your trainer, but I am also your mother and your father. I am your cook. I am the one who will wash your clothes. I am the one who will pay your bills and expenses to tournaments. All I want from you is to think only about chess!’’
Topalov developed very quickly under Danailov’s guideance [sic]. He became a super star in the chessworld by the time he was 19. This relationship has remained just as strong until today. Topalov does not have a girlfriend or any real friends in the classical meaning of it. He has only his chess, but he would not change his universe for any other.
And he has Danailov. Danailov is paid, I am told, 50 percent of everything that Topalov wins, and while many might think that is excessive, the Topalov-Danailov relationship is very unique. And mutually beneficial. And now it seems as though their faith in each other will make history in this tournament."
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is there anywhere i can get a site where i can look at past sweet chess matches with amazing players?? :D:D:D:D
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these games make me want to play chess again
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BlackJack, Thank You for the entertaining links.
There has been attempts at the past which horribly failed but I think it's about time to create and maintain TL Chess League. Anyone else thinks this deserves its own thread?
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I think you're the one to lead it, OPM. gogogo
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Well I would be interested, but I'm horrible at chess though. But I'm not sure at what you mean by a league? A kind of championship?
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
Hell, id be interested in it!!
and OPM is the most deserving man ont he site to lead it..
ill stand and support this worthy cause
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This is ludicrous. Anyone "watching"?
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They delayed the match because of urine(g)ate?
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I am. This crazy chess drama! Latest news are that Topa is at the table and the clock started and Kramnik is in his restroom waiting for his toilet to be opened.
LOL
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Oh, more drama ...
As for the league/tournament/etc: I am going off town for 5-6 days. When I return I will make discussion thread with propositions.
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While waiting anyone for a blitz (5-0/3-0) games at playchess.com?
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I may play. What is your nick there?
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I don't have nick, just number - Guest 28134
Meet at the children's room, I am there already.
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Sad moment for the chess world. Wonder if Kramnik will forfeit the game, making it 3-2. Don't think this has ever happened since Fischer-Spassky 1972 Wch match.
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Well Kramnik acts stupidly. His behaviour is suspicious and can't be accepted during such an event. I don't see any reason for him to have a private bathroom.
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
Elista Express: Game five abandoned
29.09.2006 Two hours after the scheduled start the game was abandoned, after Kramnik failed to appear on the stage. He attended the press conference and accused the Appeals Committe of bias towards his opponent. Kramnik stated that he was willing to play game five tomorrow, according to the rules agreed prior to the match. Express report.
The start of the game has been delayed to settle the controversy between the two sides. Update 15:30h: Topalov is sitting at the board, Kramnik's clock is running. The 'game' started at 15:22h Elista time. 15:45h: Kramnik is in his rest room, and is waiting for his toilet to open. The press conference of Makropoulos is about to start. So far it seems the game is not going to start unless the toilet is opened... We do not know whether the forfeit is official, but by normal rules Kramnik has lost game five on time. Kramnik appeared at the Makropoulos press conference and made a statement, saying that the Appeals committee is clearly biased. Kramnik demands replacing all members of the Appeals committee, and said he is prepared to play the fifth game of the match tomorrow, according to the rules accepted prior to the match. * oh the drama
The Topalov team includes a parapsychologist and more people which are obviously having no other tasks as to distract and to insult Mr. Kramnik especially since their team is realizing that Mr. Topalov finds himself in a difficult situation. This is what we call an utterly unfair behaviour which is not in accordance with the FIDE Code of Ethics. The decision taken by the Appeals Committee can only be seen as another attempt to disturb Mr. Kramniks concentration since it is difficult to understand what kind of improvement it shall be to have one toilet instead of two.
Our team does not trust the objectivity of the Appeals Committee anymore. Therefore it makes no sense for us to bring a protest to this table and Mr. Kramnik strongly insists once again that the members of the Appeals Committee will be changed immediately and that the heads of the Organizing Committee are taking their responsibilities.
In the meanwhile Mr. Kramnik will stop playing this match as long as FIDE is not ready to respect Mr. Kramnik’s rights, in this case to use the toilet of his own restroom whenever he wishes to do so.
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Kramnik's manager is now accussing Topalov for creating a not suitable chess playing atmosphere as his team includes bringing a psychic to the tournament.
Oh my....
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Kramnik is trying really hard to make the public believe he actually DID cheat in the previous games -_-.
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Sweden33719 Posts
On September 29 2006 08:11 crystalis-x wrote:
Kramnik's manager is now accussing Topalov for creating a not suitable chess playing atmosphere as his team includes bringing a psychic to the tournament.
Oh my....
....
A psychic?
It's not like they are playing poker, what would you need a psychic for 
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this is going to be better than anything fischer ever did :D
but yeah seriously why doesn't kramnik just use the bathroom they gave to him?
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On September 29 2006 08:35 sUng wrote:
this is going to be better than anything fischer ever did :D
but yeah seriously why doesn't kramnik just use the bathroom they gave to him?
I dunno man, Fischer forfeited game 2 vs Spassky '72. He also forfeited his title to Karpov. Not to mention all the controversial anti-semetic, anti-US comments he has made and the incredible chess he has played.
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These two guys are acting like 5 year olds:
15:30h: Topalov is sitting at the board, Kramnik's clock is running. The "game" was started at 15:22h Elista time.
15:45h: Kramnik is in his rest room, and is waiting for his toilet to open.
-------------------------------
I would have peed over the board, screw them.
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Sweden33719 Posts
On September 29 2006 10:52 lightman wrote:
These two guys are acting like 5 year olds:
15:30h: Topalov is sitting at the board, Kramnik's clock is running. The "game" was started at 15:22h Elista time.
15:45h: Kramnik is in his rest room, and is waiting for his toilet to open.
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I would have peed over the board, screw them.
Yeah, instead of acting like a 5 year old they should act like 3 year olds, I see your point
But yeah, what the hell are they arguing about.. Do they think he's shooting up in there? Having someone phone in / leave notes with analyzis by some chess computer :[?!
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EXCLUSIVE PHOTOS OF KRAMNIKS TOILET@!@!@!@!@@
hahaha
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On September 29 2006 11:14 FrozenArbiter wrote: [removed quote within quote]Yeah, instead of acting like a 5 year old they should act like 3 year olds, I see your point But yeah, what the hell are they arguing about.. Do they think he's shooting up in there? Having someone phone in / leave notes with analyzis by some chess computer :[?!
They obviously think Kramnik is using computer assistance there.
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5 year olds or not, Topalov has closed the gap to 3-2. Would be funny if he wins this match 10-2.
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haha i loaded up the game on chessgames and i was like, why doesn't it work, it only says 0-1. Retried a few times, then read the thread.
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Didn't the two players agree to separate bathrooms? Didn't the two players look at both, inspect them and the security around it and decide it was acceptable? Come on... This is Topalov just being a poor sport and being down in the match.
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Poor sport? look at the time passed by Kramnik in these toilet during the game... And "inspected them" is of no use when people with cell phone were around and none can see what was going on inside.
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The toilets, I believe, are inspected prior to every match. So there isn't much chance of a phone being hidden there. Kramnik most likely doesn't have his phone with him, as it going off is enough to forfeit the game (even set on vibrate, it would cause more trouble than its worth). any changes to the environs of the facility had to be approved by both parties, so it's not really a question that the Appeals commitee acted erroneously there. As for spending time in the bathroom; it's the only place where Kramnik can have some peace! Why not try and make the important decisions in private instead of in front of everyone?
Remember, innocent until proven guilty. And unless Topalov has some *proof* (tapes of tapping or whatever you think is going on), not just 'he spends too much time on the pot', why should Kramnik be considered guilty?
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On September 29 2006 11:43 BlackJack wrote:EXCLUSIVE PHOTOS OF KRAMNIKS TOILET@!@!@!@!@@ hahaha
OMG!!!!!!! LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL!!!! AHAHAHAHA. omg that's funny ;_;
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why not a plastic phone set to vibrate on a nerve, implanted up his ass? then people can morse code him moves while he's playing. no need for the toilet there.
topalov - adopted at age 12 to play only chess all day every day.
Kramnik - toilet fetish.
2 top chess players i the world ladies and gentlemen ^_^. i love eccentric people. that's why i like people who like anime and chinese people and uhh... MMRPG players, though they sometimes get so boring.
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this is too silly.. still i can understand why kramnik is upset, basically topalov and his team is questioning his integrity. further on if he was just to give in for topalovs demands it would in fact mean a psychological victory that shouldnt be underestimated.
back in fischers day this was one of his favourite way of trying to wear down his oponent. making outrageous demands and when the oponent gave in they lost horribly as a consequence. coinsidence? hardly. spassky for example openly admitted afterwards that if he had stood his ground he would probably had won, but he was very gentlemanlike and wanted more than anything to secure the future of the match when fischer started to threaten to abandon the match.
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for example one of fischers demands during the world championship match with spassky was that when he went from his hotel to the playing venue there should only be green lights at every intersection.. also he was disapointed with the lights over the board and demanded that special lightbulbs would be flown in from the states.
this seems pretty petty compared to the problems they had to deal with back then..
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On September 29 2006 17:27 goldrush wrote:
Kramnik most likely doesn't have his phone with him, as it going off is enough to forfeit the game (even set on vibrate, it would cause more trouble than its worth).
They go through metal dectectors as they enter the building.
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Okay, now it's even more unlikely that he's cheating.
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Russian Federation1953 Posts
Topalov is loser
he can't win at the chessboard....
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And apparently the match is on, according to: http://fide.com/news.asp?id=1136.
After the numerous rounds of the negotiations with the teams of Veselin Topalov and Vladimir Kramnik, FIDE President Kirsan Ilyumzhinov managed to reach the considerable progress.
As it was informed before, the question on the bathrooms was solved positively by mutual agreement of both teams.
After the voluntary resignation of the members of the 2006 World Chess Championship Appeals Committee, the new members of the Committee, who have already arrived to Elista, were assigned.
The FIDE President has made several proposals for further continuation of the match, which unfortunately were not accepted. After the detailed study of the current situation and the consultation with the FIDE Legal Advisor, the FIDE President decided:
Tomorrow, 2 October 2006, at 15.00, the 6th Game of the World Chess Championship Match Topalov-Kramnik with the score 3:2 in favour of Kramnik, will take place.
Quite ridiculous. If they thought it was hard to get sponsors for tournaments, think of how hard it will be now.
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This is simply breaking the hearts of all chess fans. Glad to know they will resume the match, however. I think Kramnik has only himself to blame for giving Topalov Game 5.
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Kramnik shouldn't have forfeited game 5, I guess he didn't quite handle that situation well.
This was a clear strategy from Topalov's team to make him lose his concentration and obtain more rest days and eventually the free win. Plus, both teams now are really doing their best in making chess players look stupid in front of the whole world.
If Topalov was the one up 2-0, do you really think he would be complaining on how many times does Kramnik go to the bathroom ? I don't think so.
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On October 01 2006 21:27 lightman wrote:
Kramnik shouldn't have forfeited game 5, I guess he didn't quite handle that situation well.
This was a clear strategy from Topalov's team to make him lose his concentration and obtain more rest days and eventually the free win. Plus, both teams now are really doing their best in making chess players look stupid in front of the whole world.
If Topalov was the one up 2-0, do you really think he would be complaining on how many times does Kramnik go to the bathroom ? I don't think so.
True that. I too can't help thinking that Team Topalov just invented this whole debacle up.
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Kramnik is playing for the draw one more time and Topalov is very agressive as always.
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Game 6: Position looks drawn after 20 moves
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But Kramnik plays 20. ... f6, creating some complications. He should have attempted to simplify further with 20. .... Bc5!
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Draw... And a boring one sadly.
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For those who haven't followed this, it might actually seem like Topalov's accusation is reasonable, but it's so incredibly stupid. Just look at the games, and it's utterly obvious Kramnik isn't cheating.
Guess Danailov got what he wanted though, a free win for his player. -_-
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On October 02 2006 09:37 Orome wrote:
For those who haven't followed this, it might actually seem like Topalov's accusation is reasonable, but it's so incredibly stupid. Just look at the games, and it's utterly obvious Kramnik isn't cheating.
Guess Danailov got what he wanted though, a free win for his player. -_-
You cannot say that , because even if you are right and this is just a trick that Topalov team made to distract Kramnik, no one stopped Kramnik to play that fifth game. Topalov had a problem with Kramnik WC however he went to play the fifth game
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What a bunch of pansies. Do you see Boxer taking 10 trips to the WC when he plays SC?
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On October 02 2006 10:34 Hippopotamus wrote:
What a bunch of pansies. Do you see Boxer taking 10 trips to the WC when he plays SC?
True, but most BW games are only 30 mins long
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and i think kramnik claims to have some kind of condition that requires him to use the bathroom rather frequently.
btw i hoped for more drama...or none at all
so now i hope for ggs.
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On October 02 2006 09:46 M2 wrote:
[removed quote within quote]
You cannot say that , because even if you are right and this is just a trick that Topalov team made to distract Kramnik, no one stopped Kramnik to play that fifth game. Topalov had a problem with Kramnik WC however he went to play the fifth game
Topalov did not have a problem with Kramnik's WC because Kramnik's WC was locked for the 5th game. imo, Kramnik has been 100% in the right during this entire debacle. It's pretty honorable for him to continue on 3:2 for the sake of chess fans.
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On October 02 2006 09:46 M2 wrote:
[removed quote within quote]
You cannot say that , because even if you are right and this is just a trick that Topalov team made to distract Kramnik, no one stopped Kramnik to play that fifth game. Topalov had a problem with Kramnik WC however he went to play the fifth game
I'm not saying it was right for him not to have played the fifth game, I'm only talking about Danailov's accusation, which was clearly bs. Whether or not Kramnik should've turned up for the fifth game is another question, and I really don't know enough about the FIDE and the whole commity Kramnik didn't like to answer that.
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If Kramnik's WC had not been locked, Topalov would in the most likelihood not have come out to play Game 5. In addition, I am pretty sure that Kramnik's concentration would have been severely affected and is in no position to play Game 5.
I do admire Kramnik's decision to continue playing Game 6 with the score of 3-2 but under protest and take a forfeit for Game 5 which was actually "won" by Danailov for Team Topalov.
Extracted from Kramnik's public statement which was officially released, "I deeply regret the unsportsmanlike and unequaled behaviour of my opponent whom FIDE donated a victory outside of the board by using dirty tricks." "dirty tricks" should have been better quoted with "underhanded tactics". Nonetheless, I do believe in his innocence.
GoGoGo Kramnik for the undisputed World Chess Champion title.
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I thought games with bishop of the same color weren't draws?
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Coincidence Statistics of the moves of GM Kramnik
with recommendations of the chess program Fritz 9
Elista, October 4, 2006
After very detailed analyze of all games of the match we would like to present to your attention coincidence statistics of the moves of GM Kramnik with recommendations of chess program Fritz 9.
First game:
From 75 moves: After the 12th move of Topalov Ba6, a novelty, from 65 remaining moves – 41 moves match with the first line of Fritz 9. (63% of matches)
Second game:
From 63 moves: After 17th move, where the theory ends, from remaining 46 moves – 40 moves match with the first line of Fritz 9. (87% of matches)
Third game
From 38 moves: after 10th move, when the theory ends, from 46 remaining moves – 40 match with the first line of Fritz 9. (86% of matches)
Forth game:
From 54 moves: After 14th move, when the theory ends, from 40 remaining moves – 30 match with the first line of Fritz 9. (75% of matches)
Sixth game:
From 31 moves: After 13th move, when the theory ends, from 18 remaining moves – 14 match with the first line of Fritz9. (78% of matches)
Thus, out of 5 games – 78% of GM Kramnik’s moves match with the first line of Fritz9.
Sincerely
Silvio Danailov
rofl, this is too good.
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It would be interesting to know how many of topalov's moves match with those of Fritz 9
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Game 7 has begun, Kramnik's play is very defensive.
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Yes, but structurally, it's very solid. I would say black has equalized in this position if he doesn't allow any cheap tricks.
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yep white doesn't seem to be able to break through. It's an interesting game so far.
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Kramnik has only 30 minutes left to play the next 15 moves? that's not a lot.
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On October 04 2006 04:45 BlackJack wrote:
[removed quote within quote]
rofl, this is too good.
The Kramnik - Fritz coincidence should be no surprise to anyone.
Kramnik (to me) plays like a machine. He simply does not play like a human player, and I have been following his career since the mid 90s. He himself has said in interviews that he trains with fritz.
Then it should be no surprise that Kramnik has high success against aggressive players, like Judit Polgar, Kasparov and Topalov himself. Kramnik holds an impressive +22-0=25 (may be wrong but it's something like that) record against Polgar (that's right no losses),,,, and is one of the few players that holds a positive record against Kasparov and Topalov,,, perhaps maybe the only player to hold positve record against both of them.
A lot of people do not like Kramnik's style, but personally I love it. He plays safe secure and for the win of the overall match, not the game. When he's winning he plays not to lose. When losing he plays to win. He simply plays cold minded and solid as a rock, waiting until his opponent blunders, which is ok. I mean.... Strategically he's perfect.
He truly must be the most passive World champion player of all time, and like I said,,, his cold mind play is simply awesome.
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It's efficient but far from perfect. He will probably win this championship but mainly because Topalov blundered in the game he had a forced mat.
When he take an early lead because of a blunder it works, but if Topalov would have been more patient the result could have been totaly different.
That's why I don't like his style a lot. it depend too much on what the others do.
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team topalov claims team kramnik cheats w/ fritz...
http://chessbase.com/newsdetail.asp?newsid=3401
in all seriousness, is it possible that any of top GM can have identical moves(incredibly, all in 1st line analysis) with a super computer chess program such as fritz9? imo i doubt it, but i hope there should be a thorough investigation on the matter esp. that kramnik has been accussed of having an excessive/(unprecedented lol) visits on his pivate toilet during all his games in this match. 
btw, fritz9 - this chess monster can have multipe line analysis with the 1st line being the strongest line the computer can have.
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I would be surprised if the other matches are played. This has gone too far.
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what happened to the one guy Bobby Fisher? he wasn't fictional was he? i thought he was like a master chess guy that went into seclusion.
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On October 04 2006 14:02 Jonoman92 wrote:
what happened to the one guy Bobby Fisher? he wasn't fictional was he? i thought he was like a master chess guy that went into seclusion.
yea, bobby the great fisher.. is there any1 better than him? (talent and principle).
sadly and too bad, people around him(politics and country; US and Russia) made it difficult and hard for him to be what he wanted it to be(imo should supposed to be) the way chess as a whole is to be and should be played.
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You sure that Kramnik has a positive score versus Kasparov? Chessgames has them being VERY close head-to-head, but that includes blitz games and the like. Not to mention that I'm not sure that their database is complete.
In any case, I have always enjoyed watching positional players at their best. Tactics might be more flashy and crowdpleasing, but there's nothing more satisfying than doing a python squeeze on an opponent. It's also MUCH harder; as the game of chess hinges primarily on tactics, the person doing the squeeze must also on top of any tactics that may even potentially arise. I've lost many a game having outplayed the opponent, only to fall to a four move combination that wins a pawn/piece. Petrosian is one of my favorite champions because of this; he wins 'at will' when he wants to, somewhat like Kramnik. However, he's content with minimal advantages and trying to convert them. He doesn't overextend that much either, waiting for his opponent to make the first mistake. Winning by +1 rather than +2 is just fine for him.
I wouldn't go so far as to say that Kramnik is strategically 'perfect', but he's one of the hardest people to beat out there.
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On October 04 2006 14:48 larrysbird wrote:
[removed quote within quote]
yea, bobby the great fisher.. is there any1 better than him? (talent and principle).
sadly and too bad, people around him(politics and country; US and Russia) made it difficult and hard for him to be what he wanted it to be(imo should supposed to be) the way chess as a whole is to be and should be played.
too bad he went batshit crazy.
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goldrush, 100% agreed with you. Kramnik wins "at will", and it's nearly impossible to beat him when he's on nerd mode on.
shymon,,, Fischer didn't go crazy, he was born crazy. Read the interview of him when he was 16. He makes any crazy person you've ever met look like normal.
And then read the pre-interview of the 1972 World championship match.
And then, read the interview of his 1992 match wis Spassky. Gotta love his:
"Karpov, Kasparov, Korchnoi have absolutely destroyed chess by their immoral, unethical, prearranged games. These guys are really the lowest dogs around"
haha
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GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
He was pretty messed up when he was a kid, but after his world championship he just got even worse and went totally psycho
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16986 Posts
Anyone remember Kramnik vs. Deep Fritz a few years ago? I think he blundered game six and allowed his Knight to be taken.
Also, to the poster like ten above me. "He truly must be the most passive World champion player of all time, and like I said,,, his cold mind play is simply awesome."....what about Petrosian?
EDIT: It was in the endgame. The blunder, I mean. Kramnik resigned.
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Bill307
Canada9103 Posts
On October 04 2006 13:29 larrysbird wrote:
in all seriousness, is it possible that any of top GM can have identical moves(incredibly, all in 1st line analysis) with a super computer chess program such as fritz9? imo i doubt it
Let's assume Fritz's 1st line move is also the "best" move. Then Kramnik is, on average, playing the "best" move 78% of the time (outside of openings). Is that so hard to believe?
Moreover, a 78% agreement rate is a MEANINGLESS figure on its own. We have no idea what a typical agreement rate is. Maybe the average rate is higher than 78%. In any case, it is stupid to jump to conclusions given a meaningless figure like that. I think Team Topalov makes themselves look very bad with this accusation: either they are really that stupid to think this is convincing evidence, or else they have abandoned logic and are just trying to convince people's emotions instead of their minds.
Anyway, I just got caught up on this topic and the games. I did not expect them to be wrapped in so much drama! Thanks for those links, Blackjack: looks like there are a number of cool games among them .
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On October 04 2006 19:42 Bill307 wrote:
[removed quote within quote]
Let's assume Fritz's 1st line move is also the "best" move. Then Kramnik is, on average, playing the "best" move 78% of the time (outside of openings). Is that so hard to believe?
Moreover, a 78% agreement rate is a MEANINGLESS figure on its own. We have no idea what a typical agreement rate is. Maybe the average rate is higher than 78%. In any case, it is stupid to jump to conclusions given a meaningless figure like that. I think Team Topalov makes themselves look very bad with this accusation: either they are really that stupid to think this is convincing evidence, or else they have abandoned logic and are just trying to convince people's emotions instead of their minds.
presumably it is meaningful, you said yourself you dont know what the average rate is. if theyre making such an accusation theres a pretty good chance the averate rate is below 78%, it doesnt seem like the type of thing youd want to rush into with little information.
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Bill307
Canada9103 Posts
On October 04 2006 20:04 IdrA wrote:
presumably it is meaningful, you said yourself you dont know what the average rate is. if theyre making such an accusation theres a pretty good chance the averate rate is below 78%, it doesnt seem like the type of thing youd want to rush into with little information.
I see it differently. I think this is exactly the kind of thing where people might intentionally rush in without knowing the full story: because they know it will be enough to convince (or fool) the average person into taking Topalov's side, and to sway others too. Even my own first reaction to those figures was "gee, those are pretty big fractions: it must be quite an improbable coincidence that they occurred!" and so my initial impulse was to agree with them.
In addition, if they know the average rate is below 78%, then why don't they say so explicitly, or back it up with other analyses?
From my perspective, making premature accusations is a very common thing, faaaaar more common than making well-backed accusations. This is because with a premature accusation, you can damage another person's reputation even if you have no real evidence at all, and even if your accusation is proven false in the end.
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Judging from Danailov's behaviour, and the games played so far, it's _highly_ unlikely the accusation is valid.
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all the games have started 7am EST
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Kramnik's team should analyze 100 games from other GMs and see on average, what percentage of their moves match up with Fritz. I bet it's around the level that Kramnik's getting. But Kramnik seems to be a really nice guy, not really paying attention to Topalov's team.
I think Top's just crying because he lost 2-0.
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GM Kramnik,Vladimir(RUS) (2750) - GM Topalov,Veselin(BUL) (2813)
World Chess Championship Elista (8), 05.10.2006
[Robot 1]
1.d4 d5 2.c4 c6 3.Nf3 Nf6 4.Nc3 e6 5.e3 Nbd7 6.Bd3 dxc4 7.Bxc4 b5 8.Be2 Bb7 9.0-0 b4 10.Na4 c5 11.dxc5 Nxc5 12.Bb5+ Ncd7 13.Ne5 Qc7 14.Qd4 Rd8 15.Bd2 Qa5 16.Bc6 Be7 17. Rfc1
Topalov looks fine in this position, though it is an uncompromising and combative line. I'm a bit surprised that Kramnik allowed Topalov to play it. One of the most interesting games yet is in the making.
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Just joined in.
Interesting situation. (29 Rc1)
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Two minor pieces for a rook and a pawn. This should be a fun end game.
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Okay I suck at chess but I'll try to play along to see how much moves my noobness gets "right".
I think 31 ... g6
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yeah this works too. -.- bah
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hehe;
this drooks a bit like a law to me, but I have such limited understand that 99% of the implications of the situation probably escapes my notice.
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Bill307
Canada9103 Posts
37. f3
Good move, otherwise Topalov could have done this (if that pawn wasn't there and Kramnik made some other move):
37. ... Nd6
38. Rbc7 Rb8
39. Rc3 Ne4
40. Rd3 Nec5
and Topalov wins the pawn on b3 (I think?). But now Ne4 doesn't work.
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Bill307
Canada9103 Posts
39. f4
Hmm... how can Topalov win this? One line of attack might be:
39. ... Ne4
40. __ Kf6
41. __ Nc5
Threatening both the b rook and pawn. Not sure where he can go from there.
... looks like Topalov made his move:
39. ... Kd6
Now he can play Nc5 on the next move. Kramnik might check with Rd1, and I'm not sure what kind of attack Topalov can put together from there =/.
Oh interesting, Topalov has left his g pawn for dead! Though Kramnik must protect e3 with a rook before his king can take g3...
40. Kf3 Nd5
Okay, I should stop analysing these positions and focus on my work =P.
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Bill307
Canada9103 Posts
Actually, I got a bit of time. Let's see... Kramnik can't protect his e3 pawn with Re1 rightnow because of:
41. Re1 Nc5
42. Rb5 Nb3
43. Rb6+ Kc7
And Kramnik loses a rook. Alternatively, he can move his rook elsewhere for move 42 at the expense of his b pawn (and likely his a pawn as well).
Edit:
41. Kxg3 Nc5
Kramnik opts to exchange pawns. I couldn't see any obvious retaliatory threats from Topalov taking the e3 pawn, but it looks like he is pressing his attack on the b rook and pawn (similar to what I stepped through above). After all, he can take the e3 pawn whenever he wants, but doing so will waste 1 or 2 turns.
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lol bill your analysis sucks !
42 Rg7 Rb8
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Bill307
Canada9103 Posts
On October 05 2006 08:15 lightman wrote:
lol bill your analysis sucks !
42 Rg7 Rb8
What is that, some kind of retarded flame?
FYI, I enjoy reading others' analyses because it saves me from having to discover things on my own (assuming I would even see them at all). I imagine other people will feel the same way about mine.
I don't see you contributing anything right now.
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Bill307
Canada9103 Posts
Just after Topalov's 48th move now. Kramnik has a passed pawn on the "a" file, but his king is in a precarious position. Then again, if it was dead, then I don't see why Topalov wouldn't just go for the mate instead of taking the b pawn. So maybe it is safe for now...
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4:4 ....... now that forfeit win will really mean the difference.
Hey Bill I was just kidding man ... can you take a joke ?
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Bill307
Canada9103 Posts
On October 05 2006 08:42 lightman wrote:
4:4 ....... now that forfeit win will really mean the difference.
Hey Bill I was just kidding man ... can you take a joke ?
Oh, my mistake. Replace "retarded flame" with "retarded joke" then. (jokes are supposed to be funny, but I don't see who would laugh at what you wrote...)
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hey man no need to ofend. replace "flame" with "joke"..... I mean sorry but "retarded" ? we're chess players right ? so let's keep an intelectual level here and enjoy the match
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good match and an interesting win.
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Oh dear! The score is deadlocked at 4-4.
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Game nine has started. After 10 moves, only 2 of Topalov's pawn remain on the 2nd rank. Should be fun.
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My engines agree that on move 30 Topalov has advantage sufficient for victory (from 1.65 to 1.95).
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My engine tells me that Kramnik has less than 15 minutes on his clock
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Yes, Kramnik is under heavy pressure. Two knights versus two bishops, a crappy pawn structure and less space are his due. Enough to win? I don't really know. Lateral defense along the second rank might be enough for Kramnik to hold on here.
And just as I say that, Kramnik plays the horrible 35... Nf8?. I'm sorry, but to my amateurish eyes, that's just a HORIBBLE move. He's going down now...
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1-0 Topalov wins.
Impressive comeback by Topalov. He now leads the match by 1 point with 3 games to go. However, to be the undisputed champion in public opinion, Topalov would have to lead by 2 games since one of his wins came from a forfeit. I think Kramnik should play smart chess and take an opening if he sees it instead of going all out for a win.
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
topalov is showing form now.. after a shakey start .. but hey he seems to have a habit of shakey starts =/
neverthless, kramnik is looking far below the standard that i expected from him...
Topa should win the next few imo
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On October 07 2006 07:36 BlackJack wrote:
1-0 Topalov wins.
Impressive comeback by Topalov. He now leads the match by 1 point with 3 games to go. However, to be the undisputed champion in public opinion, Topalov would have to lead by 2 games since one of his wins came from a forfeit. I think Kramnik should play smart chess and take an opening if he sees it instead of going all out for a win.
Agree about the "undesputness" /if there such a word /, although there always will be people that will say that Topalov team break Kramnik's concentration and etc.
Now the interesting part is coming - Kramnik MUST play for a win. Lets see how will he do that.
I am so excited.
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Well, he doesn't HAVE to play for a win. Three games left is enough for him to draw a couple of games and win the last one. Let's not forget the Leko-Kramnik match, where Kramnik won the last game to draw and win the match.
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Topalov finding some form. Kramnik tiring.
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toplalov ftw
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Topalov has to win by 2 games for it to be considered an actual win, although he'd technically take it. If he wins by 1 game, then if you take the forfeit out it would be drawn, and Kramnik would have retained the title.
But I think Kramnik would have won this long ago if not for Topalov's team's mindgames. Really, Kramnik should have just pulled a Fischer and left after the forfeit. In fact, even if Kramnik loses every single game, Topavlov won't be considered the undisputed champ: technically yes, in players minds, no. Just a player who can only win off the chessboard.
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
On October 07 2006 20:15 bearnet2001 wrote:
Topalov has to win by 2 games for it to be considered an actual win, although he'd technically take it. If he wins by 1 game, then if you take the forfeit out it would be drawn, and Kramnik would have retained the title.
But I think Kramnik would have won this long ago if not for Topalov's team's mindgames. Really, Kramnik should have just pulled a Fischer and left after the forfeit. In fact, even if Kramnik loses every single game, Topavlov won't be considered the undisputed champ: technically yes, in players minds, no. Just a player who can only win off the chessboard. i disagree... topalov has shakey starts and recovers well. kramnik hasnt been playing *supurb chess* (for his level anyway) but it was more topa's weakness which cost him the first two games. Topa found his form, and now is going to run kramnik into the ground... imo he is undisputedly the world champ, and itll be confirmed after the conlcusion of this series...
The games topa have lost have been remembered for Topa's mistakes not kramniks good play, imo this entire series has been topa dominated (all events coming from topa)
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GM Kramnik,Vladimir(RUS) (2743) - GM Topalov,Veselin(BUL) (2813) World Championship Elista (10), 08.10.2006
[Robot 1]
1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e6 3.Nf3 d5 4.g3 Bb4+ 5.Bd2 Be7 6.Bg2 0-0 7.0-0 c6 8.Bf4 Nbd7 9.Qc2 a5 10.Rd1 Nh5 11.Bc1 b5 12.cxd5 cxd5 13.e4 dxe4 14.Qxe4 Rb8 15.Qe2 Nhf6 16.Bf4 Rb6 17.Ne5 Nd5 18.Bxd5 exd5 19.Nc3 Nf6 20.Nxb5 Ba6 21.a4 Ne4 22.Rdc1 Qe8 23.Rc7 Bd8 24.Ra7 f6 25.Nd7 Rf7 26.Nxb6 Rxa7 27.Nxd5 Rd7 Line
Kramnik fighting back! White is clearly better in this position and is up a couple of pawns. Black has the two bishops, but they aren't worth the extra material. White should be able to consolidate his material and win this easily.
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It's also an open and tricky position. Kramnik has 10 moves to go with 17 minutes on his clock.
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I don't know how tricky it is. Where's the black counterplay for the extra pawns? He will probably have to give up the bishop pair for one of the knights and in such a position, where black has to constantly worry about f3 (winning the pinned knight), white should be able to conslidate fairly easily into a won endgame.
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You're right, Kramnik is up a rook for a knight, and now has an extra hour. Should be an easy 1-0.
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1-0, Kramnik has officially won and tied the amtch up.
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On October 08 2006 07:53 goldrush wrote:
1-0, Kramnik has officially won and tied the amtch up.
u mean is leading?
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Good to see Mr. Kramnik winning again.
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No, since the toilet forfeit still 'officially' counts as a game lost for Kramnik, Topalov has 3 wins to Kramnik's 3 wins.
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Oh dear! The score is deadlocked at 5-5 with 2 games left to play for all the "marbles". Kramnik came back to snatch a well-earned confidence boosting Game 10 victory from two morale sapping defeats in succession. Just simply awesome!
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Game 11 starts in 30 mins!
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Topalov making his first 10 moves or so in less than 2 minutes
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So far (14. move) Topalov play very aggressive and super quick, while Kramnik is taking his time.
My engines gives a little advantage on Toplalov's side, but minor one. More important is that Topa already have won such Slav defence games. Let's see what happens ...
If anyone in next two hours wants to play me on playchess.com with time control between 1+2 till 5+2 - PM or let me know here.
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Position after Black's 14th move looks blown wide apart. I have a feeling there is going to be a result in this game. Also Topalov's fast opening play gives the feel of some sleepless home preparation.
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In the position after white's 17th move, is white really threatening to play b5 and pry open the black camp? Taking the b5 pawn would be bad for black imo because of the two weak pawns on b7 and d5.
Kramnik defends against this 'threat' by playing 17... Qd7. Now, if 18. b5 Nxc5! is a killer shot as 19. dxc5 Bxc5+ 20. Kg2 Qh3+ is hopeless. Therefore, something like 19. f5 must be played but after 19... Ne4, black looks great.
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Kramnik may be preparing an attack on the h file
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After some exchanges the question is: Can Topalov capitalize on 2 Bishops in endspiel?
I hope he can.
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And the answer is: Sadly, no.
Topa played crappy, thats the truth.
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MaTRiX[SiN]
Sweden1282 Posts
this probably an extremely newbie question but how do they decide when these things end? seems to me like it just kinda ends randomly.. neither players time was up and it wasnt checkmate.
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Bill307
Canada9103 Posts
Draws can occur in 3 ways:
1. Stalemate: one player has no legal moves. Example: it is your turn to move, but you have no pieces left and your king is surrounded and cannot move, but it is not in check so there is no checkmate.
2. 3 repetitions of the same position.
3. The players agree to a draw, which is what happened in this case. Probably because neither of them can see any attack vectors and experience also supports the belief that the game is drawn.
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50 moves without a capture or pawn move too.
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
Open Letter To FIDE President H.E. Kirsan Illyumzhinov To Head of the 2006 Executive Committee Mr. Valery Bovaev Dear Mr President, Gentlemen, Having received innumerable published and unpublished inquiries I would like to clarify, in the name of Vladimir Kramnik and his team, our position in the decision taken by FIDE regarding the fifth game of the current World Championship match. 1. As you know Vladimir Kramnik is playing the current match under protest. Nothing has changed in our attitude, which is documented by Kramnik’s actions around the fifth game and our statements, protests and letters: 29.09.2006: http://www.kramnik.com/eng/news/viewarticle.aspx?id=104 02.10.2006: http://www.kramnik.com/eng/news/viewarticle.aspx?id=106 04.10.2006: http://www.kramnik.com/eng/news/viewarticle.aspx?id=107 2. Consistent with this standpoint Vladimir Kramnik will be playing this match, including a possible tiebreak, up to the last move under protest. 3. Should the decision of FIDE regarding the fifth game have any influence on the awarding of the World Championship title, with Mr Topalov receiving the title after being granted a free point for the unplayed game, Mr Kramnik declares unequivocally: “I will not recognize Mr Topalov as World Champion under these conditions, and I will take legal action against FIDE at the end of the World Championship.” 4. The damage done to Mr Kramnik in public opinion (e.g. the slander campaign) after the illegal release of private video images by the then FIDE Appeals Committee or the WCC 2006 Executive Committee to the Topalov team, and the subsequent release of these video images and private information of Mr Kramnik in his restroom to the mass media, as well as the interruption of the match, which broke Mr Kramnik’s concentration and playing rhythm, will all be part of the legal action which will be initiated. 5. As a sign of good will Mr Kramnik once again requests FIDE to arrange for game five to be played out on the board immediately after game 12. This in our opinion is the only way to alleviate the personal, sporting, judicial and ethical injuries that have been incurred by Mr Kramnik. Elista, October 10, 2006 On behalf of Vladimir Kramnik Yours sincerely Carsten Hensel (Manager to Vladimir Kramnik, Classical World Chess Champion)
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Seriously, Mr. Kramnik lost game 5 by not turning up. He said himself he is a professional, and a professional would have turned up and played even in that situation. I am not saying I like it though, for I truly support Mr. Kramnik in this.
(By the way, does anyone else find it funny calling players with the title 'Mr.' Go Mr. Kramnik!)
Anyway, Game 11 ends in a draw. Mr. Kramnik with the white pieces in the final game.
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Let's not forget not enough material to mate or a completely blocked position.
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
Personally, im against game 5 being played after game 12 for these reasons;
1) Kramnik had the choice to turn up but did not, thus, his fault
2) A true professional, deserving of the title WOULD have turned up
3) If game 5 was so important to Kramnik he should have brought this up AT the time, or near to it not JUST before the final game
i hope topalov wins.. much more exciting player
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He was denied access to the bathroom, his favorite thinking spot...
And Topalov's team is gay as shit. Using arbitrary statistical numbers to try to show that Kramnik was using Fritz?
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Game 5 should be played. It's a favor to Topalov too: If the last game is a draw then Kramnik will be world champion I think (is he considered the one who defend here ?).
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
Well... there will be a tie game on the last day (13th i beleive) which i assume is used to decide who is champion (seeing as they both technically are)
If game 5 is played its bad for topalov, if he loses/draws game 5 he cannot win the series
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Score of Game 5 was recodnized by the official arbiters and there are NO forces in the world that could turn it, or make it play again. Kramnik said that he will sue FIDE if game 5 stays that way. His chances are miserable byt he experts of law. However if game 5 is to play Topalov will CERTAINLY sue AND WIN 100 % such a case. If you were FIDE what would you do?
@Agone: In case of draw (6-6) neither is champion, more games will be played with shorten time control.
@LeoTheLion: Yeah, it's certainly gay, but remember who started the shit? No? Let me remind you - few months ago two russian top GM accused Topalov of computer help. What proves do they have? None?
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Let's not blame or crucify the players... be it Topalov or Kramnik. They are human adversaries and thus, have already overreacted and blown the "Toiletgate" situation out of proportion. Realistically speaking, it is to be expected that such unfortunate incidents may happen in a World Chess Championship match. Why? Obviously, everything is at stake for both players.
It is crystal clear to me that the previous Appeals Committee had made an inappropriate/flawed decision in Kirsan's absence who was having a meeting with Putin somewhere else and the Chief Arbiter dutifully or naively allowed play to commence and when the allotted time ticked away, signed his signature on the Game 5 score sheet awarding the controversial win to Topalov. ATTENTION: The previous Appeals Committee is in mostly likelihood, not aware of the players agreement about the unhindered frequency of players' private bathrooms access. I believe, the previous Appeals Committee had erred in their assessment of Kramnik's reprisal action or didn't think much about its repercussion.
Kramnik can sue FIDE for the previous Appeals Committee inappropriate/flawed decision to lock his private bathroom without his consent and win on this issue only but the Game 5 result cannot be simply reversed.
Team Kramnik should not have rushed to demand that the previous Appeals Committee be sacked immediately. Instead on hindsight, it should have been wiser to hold a discussion or pow-wow with FIDE President, the previous Appeals Committee, Team Topalov and Team Kramnik to find the best outcome or resolution before Game 6 is even played.
Then proceed to slap the previous Appeals Committee silly with a well-deserved sacking for their lack of professionalism or abuse of their draconian powers, plunging our beloved intellectual game into disrepute.
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Wow. Final game starting in 6.5 hours. I really hope Kramnik wins. Topalov, you don't deserve to be world champion - too many blunders
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On October 10 2006 18:34 Plexa wrote:
Personally, im against game 5 being played after game 12 for these reasons;
1) Kramnik had the choice to turn up but did not, thus, his fault
2) A true professional, deserving of the title WOULD have turned up
3) If game 5 was so important to Kramnik he should have brought this up AT the time, or near to it not JUST before the final game
i hope topalov wins.. much more exciting player
QFT
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On October 11 2006 22:47 lololol wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2006 18:34 Plexa wrote:
Personally, im against game 5 being played after game 12 for these reasons;
1) Kramnik had the choice to turn up but did not, thus, his fault
2) A true professional, deserving of the title WOULD have turned up
3) If game 5 was so important to Kramnik he should have brought this up AT the time, or near to it not JUST before the final game
i hope topalov wins.. much more exciting player QFT
I understand that Topalov is from your country which may incline you to be his fan boy, but try to look at the facts. Kramnik has been correct through this entire controversy. A true professional would have played game 5? Karpov says he would have walked away from the match completely. Korchnoi says he would have walked away from the match completely. Dozens of other grandmasters have shown their support for Kramnik, such as Svidler, Short, Carlsen, Kosteniuk.
Kramnik never accepted the forfeit for game 5. He's played the match under protest since then.
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Korchnoi and Karpov said that, but they are not in Kramnik's position. Also they are not very reliable, at least in my opinion. Why? Well - both russian, both have been in various match scandals. Even more - Kramnik has never adhered to any principles and has always been led by his current personal interests. Kramnik tried several times to play in the FIDE championships and when it did not work, Kasparov offered a match to him as a gift, together with a virtual title of world champion. Topalov's words: "One thing I can say: the place of the sportsman is in the field or on the stage in front of the audience, and not in rest rooms or toilets." Toplaov could not make any difference of the outcome of game 5. The score was officially fixed. Remember Fisher's match? Fisher continued playing and actually won.
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On October 12 2006 01:19 One Page Memory wrote:
Topalov's words: "One thing I can say: the place of the sportsman is in the field or on the stage in front of the audience, and not in rest rooms or toilets." Toplaov could not make any difference of the outcome of game 5. The score was officially fixed.
Topalov could have refused the forfeit win. Too bad his actions can't follow his words.
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On October 12 2006 01:39 BlackJack wrote:
[removed quote within quote]
Topalov could have refused the forfeit win. Too bad his actions can't follow his words.
To be honest I absolutly don't care what they have done or not done. The only thing that i'm interested in is how they play chess.
Topalov impressed me more. He blundered more but he was in control for most of the game. Also Kramnik just played for the draw during most of the game (which was tactically a good choice) but was unable to keep his advance.
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On October 12 2006 01:39 BlackJack wrote:
[removed quote within quote]
Topalov could have refused the forfeit win. Too bad his actions can't follow his words.
Sorry, but I can't understand you.
Topalov was on the table waiting for the game to start, and nothing in his powers about the outcome. Forfeit was fixed by the arbiters, not Topalov. In all the sports I know the arbiters make decisions which are undisputable by the players (of course its other thing are the decisions final or not).
Edit: Simple example: One week ago I was playing Bulgarian National Team Championship - second division. In the final round, where nothing mattered anyway (we and our opponents wasted our chances for promotion previous round)my teammate forgot to turn off the cell phone and it ringed. It happened while on the second move. Arbiters came, and even all the players and captains agreed on playing the loss was fixed.
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On October 12 2006 01:19 One Page Memory wrote:
Korchnoi and Karpov said that, but they are not in Kramnik's position. Also they are not very reliable, at least in my opinion. Why? Well - both russian, both have been in various match scandals. Even more - Kramnik has never adhered to any principles and has always been led by his current personal interests. Kramnik tried several times to play in the FIDE championships and when it did not work, Kasparov offered a match to him as a gift, together with a virtual title of world champion. Topalov's words: "One thing I can say: the place of the sportsman is in the field or on the stage in front of the audience, and not in rest rooms or toilets." Toplaov could not make any difference of the outcome of game 5. The score was officially fixed. Remember Fisher's match? Fisher continued playing and actually won.
Fisher refused to play because he wanted the game conditions to be changed, not because they were changed without his consent. That's a different matter.
You say Karpov and Korchnoi don't have an objective point of view since they're Russian, but then you know you can't be objective either.
And Kasparov didn't offer the match as a gift to Kramnick. He was his best possible opponent at the time and he did a very good job, almost nobody expected him to beat Kasparov.
This controversy is a shame, since this duel was supposed to be for unification, but, if Kramnick doesn't win the last game (draw or loss, game 5 result would have an impact on the final result), it will only cause more arguments and we will still have 2 champions...
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I see no significant difference. Of course all (me, you, BlackJack, etc.) are giving just our impressions, and since none of us is God himself - our opinion did not matter.
And yes, match was a gift, not the outcome of the match, but the match itself.
Lastly I totally agree on last paragraph with you - the situation is shame for chess, but please do not blame solely Topa for creating it.
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I mainly blame the ref for being stupid and changing the rules without the agreement of the 2 players.
In the Fisher-Spassky match, Fisher wanted a few changes and only got them because Spassky accepted (his biggest mistake, Fisher broke him psychologically after that :p). If not, Fisher would have walked away from the match.
Here, Topalov manager got the ref to change rules without Kramnick consent. It really sucks. I think you have to give more credit to GM opinions since they're more used to that kind of matches, pressure and tricks. Kramnick could have walked away without any shame, especially being ahead.
I disagree on the Kramnick-Kasparov match. Kramnick was at the peak of his form and, i think, the only one who could beat Kasparov at that time.
At first, i was cheering for Topalov, the most impressive player of the 2, but now it's all fucked up.
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Ok, some GM opinions:
1. "Is Kramnik the legitimate champion?
Yes. No. It still depends on whether you rate a private match as a legitimate forum when there is an official international chess body (FIDE). The match pitted the top two rated players in the world, and the tantrum-prone Kasparov calmly recognizes his conqueror as the 14th world champion."
2. "In spite of defeating Garry Kasparov in match in October, 2000, almost nobody ever refers to Vladimir Kramnik as World Chess Champion. The best he can hope for is to be called the "Braingames World Champion".
Although there have been suggestions that this is because Shirov rather than Kramnik should have been the one to play Kasparov in a match, that is not the real reason that Kramnik is not taken seriously as World Chess Champion."
From the Makropolous statement:
"Further to this, we received open letters from both sides. I would like to share my opinion with you. According to the contract, FIDE shall provide both players with a restroom and a toilet. It is obvious for us that the contract is not binding us to provide the toilet in the restroom, otherwise the sentence would read "a restroom with a toilet". Therefore, the appeal of Mr. Hensel regarding this point of the contract are groundless."
I don't see change of rules here, just change one toilet with another. Why its so scary for Kramnik?
Lets stick to the game now ...
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On October 12 2006 02:36 One Page Memory wrote:
[removed quote within quote]
Sorry, but I can't understand you.
Topalov was on the table waiting for the game to start, and nothing in his powers about the outcome. Forfeit was fixed by the arbiters, not Topalov. In all the sports I know the arbiters make decisions which are undisputable by the players (of course its other thing are the decisions final or not).
Team Topalov has suspected his opponent of cheating, threatened to quit the match, threatened to refuse to shake his opponent's hand, accepted a forfeit victory for a game he did not play, and then accused his opponent of cheating again by comparing his moves to Fritz's. If the stage is the place for the sportsman, Topalov should get off of it.
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I a no longer discussing this scandal. Period.
As for final game - so far quiet opening, with minimal advantage for white (Kramnik).
The last Topalov's move 13. ... f5 is speaking that he's not settled for a draw.
Lets see how the situaton will develop.
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I am so sick of Topalov's apparent aggressive moves. I really dislike his style. It's like he is trying really hard to play aggressive, but he is too scared to follow it up fully. Anyway, I am just in a bad mood I guess. I mean, 13 ... f5
Mr. Topalov! Please, your style makes me sick.
Anyway, Kramnik playing solidly as usual. Looks like he has an option to open up some lines, perhaps the c-file.
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Wow. Topalov moves with black: 18. ... O-O
Wow! I think that was a small mistake. Kramnik must try to prise the c-file now with 19. b5!
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Looks like a draw already
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I don't know. Black needs some form of counterplay, so ...g5 and... f4 might give him just that on the kingside.
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Kramnik and time trouble. Funny how Leko was the one with that problem in the 2004 tournament.
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Well to me Topa is lost and plays crappy, deserves a loss.
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What a boring game. I can't see anyway of a result other than a draw.
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On October 12 2006 06:02 One Page Memory wrote:
Well to me Topa is lost and plays crappy, deserves a loss.
Uh yeah anyone here could beat him atm, that's why the score is tied. Duh.
I'll miss the today's game, bah.
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Wow, another draw? Let the rapid chess games begin!
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Bill307
Canada9103 Posts
Topalov forces a draw.
6:6 ggs
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wowza, it's quite a series
and with drama too !
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This is not looking good
6:6 and Kramnik playing under protest because of game 5. Looks like more scandal will come.
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I can't wait for the tiebreaks!
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Ok, what score are you expecting from today?
I hope for full sets of games (7) but expect Kramnik to take after one win and three draws in rapid chess.
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Tie Break 1 started. Go Mr. Kramnik.
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
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1st tie break is a draw. Kramnik may have missed some opportunities I think.
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Kramnik takes way much time than Topalov for his moves, I don't think if this tie breaks favor him. If he loses he'll probably go nuts and start a real fight throwing punches and kicking topalov, choking him with his own bulgarian tie and making him the first postumus chess champion ever
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mmm game #2 is actually interesting ........ finally
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In a very convincing way!
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Chessbase server is going down.
Where are you guys watching it ?
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worldchess web site server is also down.
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Yes One Page Memory, that site is down.
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Yay Topa wins!
Now I want a draw!
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And Kramnik takes game 4, 2,5-1,5 in rapid winning the match!
All hail the World Champion!
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Gongrats to Kramnik. Finally we have a unified champion.I feel very sorry for Topalov , becouse now everybody is gonna mock him,taking away from him the attacking chess he played during the games. I hope FIDE gives Topa a re vs Kramnik.
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aw, if topa had won we could have seen more controversy >_>
oh well, i guess kramnik won't be stupidly sueing after all
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Congratz to Mr. Kramnik!!!
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ggnr
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Re will be big mistake by FIDE and I doubt that they will make such an event.
As a countryman I was for Topalov, also was on his side about scandals, but I like more Kramnik's style of playing and think Kramnik is overall better player.
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Vladimir Kramnik is the world chess champion. End of story. No more FIDE world champion, Classical world champion, just simply and plainly world chess champion.
I would like to see Alexander Morozevich, currently ranked 5th in the world, to play the world chess champion in a match. But realistically, Vishy Anand should be the next challenger. Would be great to see the re-institution of the Interzonal and Candidates' Tournament.
Also Magnus Carlsen is looking very dangerous at age 15, now ranked 21st in the world with ELO 2698.. Will he be the next breakthrough in chess?
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i like the way topa play his game; it's all about war and aggressiveness. i like it that way, however, experience-wise vladi had the edge.
only time will tell
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I would like to see Alexander Morozevich, currently ranked 5th in the world, to play the world chess champion in a match.
Well, I believe that he's part of the Mexico tournament, so it's possible. And with his sizzling 2916(!) performance (5/6 I believe) in the ECC, he moves into what should be 4th place. However, most of the players he beat were 'merely' 2600 players, so people won't take him seriously until he shows some ability against the elite. I like his play, and seriously hope that his talent can mature.
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Amazing new development on Topalov revealing that the match was fixed and that "Kremlin and the Russian KGB (on Kramnik's side) [...] threatened him and his team physically" during the game.
http://www.chessbase.com/newsdetail.asp?newsid=3553
Topalov: the Kremlin won't admit that Kramnik cheated...
19.12.2006 "...or that they killed that Russian spy." In a startling interview with a Spanish daily Veselin Topalov (not Silvio Danailov, Topalov!) has launched a new wave of attacks against the winner of the Elista world championship Vladimir Kramnik, claiming that everything was orchestrated by the Kremlin and KGB, which also threatened him and his team physically. Read and be amazed.
Summary
The interview begins with a brief description of his life and career in Spain. Then it turns to the scandal at the World Championship match in Elista. Topalov says there were "clear indications of cheating" in the way Kramnik went to the bathroom, came out and played instantly. Cables were found in the ceiling of the bathroom, but the Topalov team kept quiet "for many reasons." Topalov specifies that "there were threats", that the airport was closed and his team was worried how they could get out of Russia.
Topalov believes that Kramnik's team did not know what was going on. He was getting help not from them but from Russian who were not part of the chess world – from non-professional chess players or from the KGB. But "the Kremlin will never admit they poisoned that Russian spy, which seems obvious, or that Kramnik cheated." Topalov says he felt he was in physical danger and will not go back to Kalmykia again. President Ilyumzhinov was not personally responsible for what transpired, he was acting on orders.
The method of cheating, says Topalov, was improved during the latter part of the match, and in fact played a decisive role in the tiebreak games. There "they had a foolproof system", and in the fourth game Kramnik "made a move that would only occur to a computer." Topalov guesses that his opponent was using an electronic device hidden on his body. "With the technology the Russians have, Kramnik will be invincible in a match." Topalov believes that Kramnik wants to keep the title without defending it over the board, and predicts that he will not play in Mexico.
In the interview there is repeated mention of "cables". These were allegedly found in Kramnik's bathroom early during the match. We will follow up on this story. For today the interview, which was carefully translated by Mig Greengard in Chess Ninja. We have included the original Spanish for some of the key passages. The interview was conducted for the Spanish daily newspaper ABC by Federico Marin Bellon in Bilbao, after the end of the blindfold match Topalov-Judit Polgar. A link to the original interview is given at the bottom of this page.
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We saw the internet cables in Kramnik's toilet, so ...
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What cables ?
Topalov really needs to stfu and start presenting some real back up evidence, instead of just sitting there and doing cry baby accusing everyone OJ Simpson style.
And he talks about the weird moves Kramnik made, but what about the STUPID moves he made that threw wins and lost the chance to draw games, like that f6 pawn move ?
Let's say Kramnik cheated during the 12 games, how can Toplaov justify his loss in the tie breakers ? Scared of physical damage ? Gimme a break man.
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The proof is ample and obvious. The problem is that so many people prefer to ignore it (see the post below) and talk trash .
Direct proof:
1. Official protocol, stating that inernet (UTP-5) cables were found under the ceiling tiles of Kramnik's toilet, signed by the match director, the chief arbiter, 2 members of the delegation (Makropoulos and Bovaev) and Topalov's manager.
2. Photoraph of the cables, published in non-tabloid newspapers (Trud(leading Bulgarian newspaper), Marca and possibly others).
3. Videotapes showing Kramnik visited toilet before each move and closed the door.
4. Guilty reaction of Kramnik and his manager which did everything to stop showing those tapes to journalists.
Indirect proof:
1. Analysis showing that Kramnik's moves corresponded to Fritz when he visited toilet, and were different from Fritz when he didn't.
The fact that ChessBase and Russian media did everything to suppres this evidence shows how corrupt and biased are chess administrators and media that reports the events. The opinions here show that a great percentage of their readers are biased too.
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I don't know what's funnier, Topalov going fishcer-esque crazy or all the Bulgarians that stand by their countryman. Wait, neither is funny.. both are quite sad..
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On December 19 2006 09:16 BlackJack wrote:
I don't know what's funnier, Topalov going fishcer-esque crazy or all the Bulgarians that stand by their countryman. Wait, neither is funny.. both are quite sad..
Yeah, it's very sad people ignore evidence and just talk crap...
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There simply is no evidence. I hope Kramnik will take this to court. A direct accuse of cheating is not funny anymore.
Cables in the toilett. -_-;;. Yeah i bet those cables really helped Kramnik alot.
You guys should read what mig from chessninjas wrote about the interview. There is really nothing else to say.
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Cayman Islands24199 Posts
well i am very suspicious of this, certainly deserves an unbiased and detailed investigation.
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On December 19 2006 07:56 lightman wrote:
Let's say Kramnik cheated during the 12 games, how can Toplaov justify his loss in the tie breakers ?
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it's common to put network cables in the ceiling...
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EPT![[image loading]](http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a326/blackjacki2/Kramniksbathroom.jpg)
