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Italy12246 Posts
Eh i strongly disagree about that. Let me go full scientist here.
Since they have the same general growth, i fit the orange line with an exponential and the blue one with a line. The idea being, the stats and int growth in fact grow at the same exact pace. Here's the result:
R^2 is a shit way to check for statistical compatibility, but nonthless this shows that both linear and exponential growth fit the graph reasonably well, aka, wether the growth is exponential or linear doesn't really impact numbers in MoP raiding tiers alone.
The only potential exception is how incredibly broken soo heroic gear is, but that's (probably) also caused by the insane trinkets (PBoI particularly i guess), legendary cloak along with the proc, etc. Even then, 522 gear appears to be more poweful than it should be just as much as 566 (assuming exponential growth), so i don't think that looking at 566 gear exclusively is really very relevant. You certainly can't see more significant signs of an exponential growth because of that last point, unless Blizz decided to change the rate of growth of stats for the last gear, which is really unlikely.
This is a very half arsed test and i guess i should check 463-582 (and probably check weapons instead of chest pieces) to have a clearer picture, and maybe even ~65-582 to really show the difference in growth, but my gut tells me the problem with the current numbers isn't item level growth per se, but a combination of having so many "tiers"in soo, the upgrade system (which at this point with +16 effectively adds an extra tier), along with how broken PBoI is (insane dps = bosses need way more hp).
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Ok so, science aside and whatnot... the way ilvl works is that each stat has a certain budget and each piece of gear has a certain budget. For example, if a Chest armor and a Belt have the same ilvl, the Chest will get twice as many stats because it has a budget of 100% while the belt has a budget of 50%.
Within that budget, primary stats are worth X amount, stamina is worth Y amount (generally 2x as much), and secondary stats are usually also worth 2x as much. It's been a while so I don't recall the exact budget numbers, but that's the gist of how it works.
Now on paper everything is equal; you go up X ilvl, you gain X budget of stats. It's pretty linear, yeah? The problem is when stats start to work with each other it becomes exponential. You can see this very easily in MoP.
Tier 14 - ilvl 496, ~50k DPS
Tier 15 - ilvl 522, ~100k DPS (5% increase in stats, 100% increase in DPS)
Tier 16 - ilvl 553, ~300k DPS (6% increase in stats, 200% increase in DPS)
The same happens with tank health and HPS. Again, on paper the numbers may be linear but the way stats work with each other, and the way raid buffs work... it inflates very quickly.
Sadly the changes they made in WoD with the stat squish were very half-assed. Even during the beta tanks were pushing close to 1m HP again, and more importantly DPS are already pulling 40k+ DPS in dungeon gear, which means we're going to see the exact same stats we had in MoP - thus requiring another stat squish next expansion.
The only true way to fix this would be to redo the entire ilvl system from scratch, because it's very archaic and doesn't work, but Blizzard apparently doesn't want to invest the resources into doing that so it's going to be a bunch of bandaid fixes for the rest of the game's lifetime (pretty much what they already do with Armor every expansion since BC).
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Italy12246 Posts
Yes, very true. I still think that the main problem isn't item level per se, but the combination of that, lots of raiding tiers (lfr/norma/heroic/mythic is really pointless), hilariously OP trinkets and cloak, and reforge. Reforge alone is a huge culprit there for lots of classes imo.
The stat squish was done wierdly. All they was remove the insane power spike between expansions, while leaving intact the one that will happen for WoD as well as how insanely broken characters are pre-60. It's really silly to see lvl 50 alts doing as much dps as kara raiders during early tbc progression. They also have yet another power spike at the start of wod, which imo isn't that really necessary. I feel like they are still leaving room to do another squish again (like by adjusting lower level characters as well).
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Honestly, a combination of ilvl and the way secondary stats work means that I think we should just get rid of primary stats (stamina, int, agi, etc.) on gear altogether because they literally don't matter. All items of a certain ilvl have the exact same primary stats, the secondary stats are all that matter. This is really saddening to me, but unfortunately necessary because of the way min/maxing works.
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I believe it was during Cata beta that Blizzard said that, in hindsight, adding Heroic difficulty caused item level inflation problems
its been sorta face-palm worthy to see them making that same mistake time and time again since.
We dont need a full gear reset every tier. we dont need a dozen ilvl difference between every mode, they could easily halve the ilvl gain during a tier and make normal mode ilvl equal previous tier heroic (current system, not WoD names).
Heroic guilds will blaze through normal mode in a single reset anyway so its no big deal to remove the gap.
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Italy12246 Posts
Heroic alone is fine, lfr, normal, heroic and mythic all in one is silly.
Also i agree on heroic previous tier=normal next tier.
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On October 04 2014 23:11 deth2munkies wrote:
Honestly, a combination of ilvl and the way secondary stats work means that I think we should just get rid of primary stats (stamina, int, agi, etc.) on gear altogether because they literally don't matter. All items of a certain ilvl have the exact same primary stats, the secondary stats are all that matter. This is really saddening to me, but unfortunately necessary because of the way min/maxing works.
In a way they have already done this with WoD loot having both str/int on plate and agi/int on leather. They just haven't made the leap to calling all of them the same name yet. Which I agree with because change is scary for people
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Italy12246 Posts
Having different names is nice because it "feels" right, otherwise they might as well just have a stat called "internet dick size", that gives different amounts of spellpower/attack power/crit/haste/mastery/multistrike/whatever else to different classes.
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I would love to see "ePeen" as a stat on my gear. For that matter let's get rid of the faulty ilvl system and problematic secondary stats and just have ePeen on everything. All gear starts off at the same ePeen level and the better you are the higher yours goes. No more RNG loot drops from bosses and whatnot; your gear levels up based on your skill. Not skilled? Sorry, you'll never have enough ePeen to progress. Find another game.
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On October 04 2014 23:22 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On October 04 2014 23:11 deth2munkies wrote:
Honestly, a combination of ilvl and the way secondary stats work means that I think we should just get rid of primary stats (stamina, int, agi, etc.) on gear altogether because they literally don't matter. All items of a certain ilvl have the exact same primary stats, the secondary stats are all that matter. This is really saddening to me, but unfortunately necessary because of the way min/maxing works. In a way they have already done this with WoD loot having both str/int on plate and agi/int on leather. They just haven't made the leap to calling all of them the same name yet. Which I agree with because change is scary for people
That's the point, it literally does not matter.
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On October 05 2014 00:42 deth2munkies wrote:Show nested quote +On October 04 2014 23:22 Gorsameth wrote:On October 04 2014 23:11 deth2munkies wrote:
Honestly, a combination of ilvl and the way secondary stats work means that I think we should just get rid of primary stats (stamina, int, agi, etc.) on gear altogether because they literally don't matter. All items of a certain ilvl have the exact same primary stats, the secondary stats are all that matter. This is really saddening to me, but unfortunately necessary because of the way min/maxing works. In a way they have already done this with WoD loot having both str/int on plate and agi/int on leather. They just haven't made the leap to calling all of them the same name yet. Which I agree with because change is scary for people That's the point, it literally does not matter.
except it does matter.
Note how there is pretty much no resistance to the way primary stats are now both on armor. There would have been a lot of uproar if instead they changes it all to "awesomestat".
Change is scary and to much change is a bad thing even if the end result is an improvement.
functionally there is no difference. emotionally the difference is huge.
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On October 04 2014 23:08 Teoita wrote:
Yes, very true. I still think that the main problem isn't item level per se, but the combination of that, lots of raiding tiers (lfr/norma/heroic/mythic is really pointless), hilariously OP trinkets and cloak, and reforge. Reforge alone is a huge culprit there for lots of classes imo.
The stat squish was done wierdly. All they was remove the insane power spike between expansions, while leaving intact the one that will happen for WoD as well as how insanely broken characters are pre-60. It's really silly to see lvl 50 alts doing as much dps as kara raiders during early tbc progression. They also have yet another power spike at the start of wod, which imo isn't that really necessary. I feel like they are still leaving room to do another squish again (like by adjusting lower level characters as well).
Leveling is completely dumb now, I started lvling a hunter a few days ago because there is nothing else to do, and I can solo instances around my own level without too much of an issue. I'm rolling like 4k hp at lvl 42 and I'm hitting 1.5k crits constantly. It's like I have three times the amount of stats I'd need to level normally.
Honestly, unless they change how gear works, they will probably have to do a squish every expo from here on out. 4 different item tiers per raid tier, and 3 raid tiers per expansion? By the end of WoD, stat scaling will be bonkers all over again.
This will probably be the biggest issue for WoW in the next 2-3 years, just what the fuck do we do with the gear?
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I think the biggest thing they could do for gear, if they really want to make primary stats matter, is to make different skills that are essential to the class benefit in certain ways by normally "off" spec stats (and obviously remove the WoD "everything has every stat" system). For instance, Int decreases the cast time and increases crit chance of Aimed Shot, or Agi decreases the CD of Mortal Strike, or something like that.
Just make it more interesting and make there tradeoffs that allow for sidegrades to actually exist and for there to be a lot more tension that goes into choosing what kinds of gear you use. As of right now, there's a ton of completely worthless gear, like the caster trinket off Malkorok and the 2her off Thok (for everyone except ret pallies), that's utterly outclassed in its slot by something from the same raid tier that just has better stats on it. This is even worse in WoD where the primary stats no longer matter and you just get the item with the secondary stats that benefit the class/spec you are most.
Making there be a meaningful choice beyond haste breakpoints and then stacking crit/mastery/multistrike/whatever is the thing that needs to be done before any scaling discussion can occur, because otherwise scaling is pointless.
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Italy12246 Posts
They tried that with spirit on hit, as well as giving SP to locks (i think?) and crit to mages during Wotlk. It didn't really work well because the secondary stats scaled pretty badly, so they ended up being junk mostly.
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On October 05 2014 02:05 Teoita wrote:
They tried that with spirit on hit, as well as giving SP to locks (i think?) and crit to mages during Wotlk. It didn't really work well because the secondary stats scaled pretty badly, so they ended up being junk mostly.
That's because hit was a "cap it and done" stat. If you either make too many stats possible to cap in a meaningful way so that there's a choice, or make the scaling relatively good across the board, it creates interesting decisions.
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On October 05 2014 01:51 deth2munkies wrote:
I think the biggest thing they could do for gear, if they really want to make primary stats matter, is to make different skills that are essential to the class benefit in certain ways by normally "off" spec stats (and obviously remove the WoD "everything has every stat" system). For instance, Int decreases the cast time and increases crit chance of Aimed Shot, or Agi decreases the CD of Mortal Strike, or something like that.
Just make it more interesting and make there tradeoffs that allow for sidegrades to actually exist and for there to be a lot more tension that goes into choosing what kinds of gear you use. As of right now, there's a ton of completely worthless gear, like the caster trinket off Malkorok and the 2her off Thok (for everyone except ret pallies), that's utterly outclassed in its slot by something from the same raid tier that just has better stats on it. This is even worse in WoD where the primary stats no longer matter and you just get the item with the secondary stats that benefit the class/spec you are most.
Making there be a meaningful choice beyond haste breakpoints and then stacking crit/mastery/multistrike/whatever is the thing that needs to be done before any scaling discussion can occur, because otherwise scaling is pointless.
First off, outside of a few corner cases Haste breakpoints no long exist in 6.0
secondly your idea is impossible to balance. some stat X will always be the best and so everyone still stack X anyway.
Wow's item system is far from ideal but your not going to create an interesting and balanced system because that's near impossible, something will always be the best and that something will then get stacked as much as possible.
Third, primary stats still very much matter. 8 out of 16 pieces have dual stats (ignoring cloth which is ofc only int). the rest is still very much the same as it is now.
The WoD model is a giant game of chance where your going to end up waiting for that 1 piece with your best secondary stats to roll all the sweet tertiary stuff that you want and until then you use a slightly inferior piece.
I'm not super enthusiastic about that system. I liked the pre-MoP gearing with no bullshit random stuff outside of which item dropped but I also realize I cant come up with a system that does work without major downsides while keeping people on the gear treadmill.
If you do have that solution I suggest you apply with it to Blizzard, they will most likely hire you on the spot.
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On October 05 2014 02:10 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On October 05 2014 01:51 deth2munkies wrote:
I think the biggest thing they could do for gear, if they really want to make primary stats matter, is to make different skills that are essential to the class benefit in certain ways by normally "off" spec stats (and obviously remove the WoD "everything has every stat" system). For instance, Int decreases the cast time and increases crit chance of Aimed Shot, or Agi decreases the CD of Mortal Strike, or something like that.
Just make it more interesting and make there tradeoffs that allow for sidegrades to actually exist and for there to be a lot more tension that goes into choosing what kinds of gear you use. As of right now, there's a ton of completely worthless gear, like the caster trinket off Malkorok and the 2her off Thok (for everyone except ret pallies), that's utterly outclassed in its slot by something from the same raid tier that just has better stats on it. This is even worse in WoD where the primary stats no longer matter and you just get the item with the secondary stats that benefit the class/spec you are most.
Making there be a meaningful choice beyond haste breakpoints and then stacking crit/mastery/multistrike/whatever is the thing that needs to be done before any scaling discussion can occur, because otherwise scaling is pointless. First off, outside of a few corner cases Haste breakpoints no long exist in 6.0 secondly your idea is impossible to balance. some stat X will always be the best and so everyone still stack X anyway. Wow's item system is far from ideal but your not going to create an interesting and balanced system because that's near impossible, something will always be the best and that something will then get stacked as much as possible. Third, primary stats still very much matter. 8 out of 16 pieces have dual stats (ignoring cloth which is ofc only int). the rest is still very much the same as it is now. The WoD model is a giant game of chance where your going to end up waiting for that 1 piece with your best secondary stats to roll all the sweet tertiary stuff that you want and until then you use a slightly inferior piece. I'm not super enthusiastic about that system. I liked the pre-MoP gearing with no bullshit random stuff outside of which item dropped but I also realize I cant come up with a system that does work without major downsides while keeping people on the gear treadmill. If you do have that solution I suggest you apply with it to Blizzard, they will most likely hire you on the spot.
It doesn't matter if something's the "theoretical best" so long as the other options are significantly close and, depending on what gear you see drop, you aren't utterly hamstrung by equipping the wrong items. In MoP, missing your haste breakpoint was like a 10% drop in DPS for some classes. Not being hit capped was even worse. Ideally, such a system would have the "theoretical best" be a mix of stats that were impossible to get, and so the "actual best" had several stat combinations very close together.
I actually did study game design and applied to a game design grad school at one point, but through my interactions I've found that I'm really good at big picture and bad at minutiae that aren't directly iterative. That's why I'm in law, I can have a big picture idea in law, and find precedent to iterate off of to make that point, not always something you can do in game design.
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On October 05 2014 02:15 deth2munkies wrote:Show nested quote +On October 05 2014 02:10 Gorsameth wrote:On October 05 2014 01:51 deth2munkies wrote:
I think the biggest thing they could do for gear, if they really want to make primary stats matter, is to make different skills that are essential to the class benefit in certain ways by normally "off" spec stats (and obviously remove the WoD "everything has every stat" system). For instance, Int decreases the cast time and increases crit chance of Aimed Shot, or Agi decreases the CD of Mortal Strike, or something like that.
Just make it more interesting and make there tradeoffs that allow for sidegrades to actually exist and for there to be a lot more tension that goes into choosing what kinds of gear you use. As of right now, there's a ton of completely worthless gear, like the caster trinket off Malkorok and the 2her off Thok (for everyone except ret pallies), that's utterly outclassed in its slot by something from the same raid tier that just has better stats on it. This is even worse in WoD where the primary stats no longer matter and you just get the item with the secondary stats that benefit the class/spec you are most.
Making there be a meaningful choice beyond haste breakpoints and then stacking crit/mastery/multistrike/whatever is the thing that needs to be done before any scaling discussion can occur, because otherwise scaling is pointless. First off, outside of a few corner cases Haste breakpoints no long exist in 6.0 secondly your idea is impossible to balance. some stat X will always be the best and so everyone still stack X anyway. Wow's item system is far from ideal but your not going to create an interesting and balanced system because that's near impossible, something will always be the best and that something will then get stacked as much as possible. Third, primary stats still very much matter. 8 out of 16 pieces have dual stats (ignoring cloth which is ofc only int). the rest is still very much the same as it is now. The WoD model is a giant game of chance where your going to end up waiting for that 1 piece with your best secondary stats to roll all the sweet tertiary stuff that you want and until then you use a slightly inferior piece. I'm not super enthusiastic about that system. I liked the pre-MoP gearing with no bullshit random stuff outside of which item dropped but I also realize I cant come up with a system that does work without major downsides while keeping people on the gear treadmill. If you do have that solution I suggest you apply with it to Blizzard, they will most likely hire you on the spot. It doesn't matter if something's the "theoretical best" so long as the other options are significantly close and, depending on what gear you see drop, you aren't utterly hamstrung by equipping the wrong items. In MoP, missing your haste breakpoint was like a 10% drop in DPS for some classes. Not being hit capped was even worse. Ideally, such a system would have the "theoretical best" be a mix of stats that were impossible to get, and so the "actual best" had several stat combinations very close together. I actually did study game design and applied to a game design grad school at one point, but through my interactions I've found that I'm really good at big picture and bad at minutiae that aren't directly iterative. That's why I'm in law, I can have a big picture idea in law, and find precedent to iterate off of to make that point, not always something you can do in game design.
Which is why haste breakpoints are gone and hit is gone.
Again stats can be close all they want, something will be best and the min-max crowd will flock to it. then another large part will blindly copy the min-max lists with no idea why and a 3e group will not give a shit because they don't know better.
This has always been the case and will always be the case.
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On October 05 2014 02:20 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On October 05 2014 02:15 deth2munkies wrote:On October 05 2014 02:10 Gorsameth wrote:On October 05 2014 01:51 deth2munkies wrote:
I think the biggest thing they could do for gear, if they really want to make primary stats matter, is to make different skills that are essential to the class benefit in certain ways by normally "off" spec stats (and obviously remove the WoD "everything has every stat" system). For instance, Int decreases the cast time and increases crit chance of Aimed Shot, or Agi decreases the CD of Mortal Strike, or something like that.
Just make it more interesting and make there tradeoffs that allow for sidegrades to actually exist and for there to be a lot more tension that goes into choosing what kinds of gear you use. As of right now, there's a ton of completely worthless gear, like the caster trinket off Malkorok and the 2her off Thok (for everyone except ret pallies), that's utterly outclassed in its slot by something from the same raid tier that just has better stats on it. This is even worse in WoD where the primary stats no longer matter and you just get the item with the secondary stats that benefit the class/spec you are most.
Making there be a meaningful choice beyond haste breakpoints and then stacking crit/mastery/multistrike/whatever is the thing that needs to be done before any scaling discussion can occur, because otherwise scaling is pointless. First off, outside of a few corner cases Haste breakpoints no long exist in 6.0 secondly your idea is impossible to balance. some stat X will always be the best and so everyone still stack X anyway. Wow's item system is far from ideal but your not going to create an interesting and balanced system because that's near impossible, something will always be the best and that something will then get stacked as much as possible. Third, primary stats still very much matter. 8 out of 16 pieces have dual stats (ignoring cloth which is ofc only int). the rest is still very much the same as it is now. The WoD model is a giant game of chance where your going to end up waiting for that 1 piece with your best secondary stats to roll all the sweet tertiary stuff that you want and until then you use a slightly inferior piece. I'm not super enthusiastic about that system. I liked the pre-MoP gearing with no bullshit random stuff outside of which item dropped but I also realize I cant come up with a system that does work without major downsides while keeping people on the gear treadmill. If you do have that solution I suggest you apply with it to Blizzard, they will most likely hire you on the spot. It doesn't matter if something's the "theoretical best" so long as the other options are significantly close and, depending on what gear you see drop, you aren't utterly hamstrung by equipping the wrong items. In MoP, missing your haste breakpoint was like a 10% drop in DPS for some classes. Not being hit capped was even worse. Ideally, such a system would have the "theoretical best" be a mix of stats that were impossible to get, and so the "actual best" had several stat combinations very close together. I actually did study game design and applied to a game design grad school at one point, but through my interactions I've found that I'm really good at big picture and bad at minutiae that aren't directly iterative. That's why I'm in law, I can have a big picture idea in law, and find precedent to iterate off of to make that point, not always something you can do in game design. Which is why haste breakpoints are gone and hit is gone. Again stats can be close all they want, something will be best and the min-max crowd will flock to it. then another large part will blindly copy the min-max lists with no idea why and a 3e group will not give a shit because they don't know better. This has always been the case and will always be the case.
Here's the problem with WoD though: with all that gone, every class/spec is literally "Stack X stat, then Y stat, other stats suck". There needs to be tension and options that affect your playstyle to make gear interesting. Now, it's just not. Gear is just an ilvl number and 1 secondary stat and nothing more. It's just incredibly boring.
Instead, having like 4 breakpoints that are impossible to all get at the same time and all have roughly the same effect on your DPS but slightly alter how your rotation works is much more interesting.
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China6331 Posts
On October 05 2014 03:07 deth2munkies wrote:Show nested quote +On October 05 2014 02:20 Gorsameth wrote:On October 05 2014 02:15 deth2munkies wrote:On October 05 2014 02:10 Gorsameth wrote:On October 05 2014 01:51 deth2munkies wrote:
I think the biggest thing they could do for gear, if they really want to make primary stats matter, is to make different skills that are essential to the class benefit in certain ways by normally "off" spec stats (and obviously remove the WoD "everything has every stat" system). For instance, Int decreases the cast time and increases crit chance of Aimed Shot, or Agi decreases the CD of Mortal Strike, or something like that.
Just make it more interesting and make there tradeoffs that allow for sidegrades to actually exist and for there to be a lot more tension that goes into choosing what kinds of gear you use. As of right now, there's a ton of completely worthless gear, like the caster trinket off Malkorok and the 2her off Thok (for everyone except ret pallies), that's utterly outclassed in its slot by something from the same raid tier that just has better stats on it. This is even worse in WoD where the primary stats no longer matter and you just get the item with the secondary stats that benefit the class/spec you are most.
Making there be a meaningful choice beyond haste breakpoints and then stacking crit/mastery/multistrike/whatever is the thing that needs to be done before any scaling discussion can occur, because otherwise scaling is pointless. First off, outside of a few corner cases Haste breakpoints no long exist in 6.0 secondly your idea is impossible to balance. some stat X will always be the best and so everyone still stack X anyway. Wow's item system is far from ideal but your not going to create an interesting and balanced system because that's near impossible, something will always be the best and that something will then get stacked as much as possible. Third, primary stats still very much matter. 8 out of 16 pieces have dual stats (ignoring cloth which is ofc only int). the rest is still very much the same as it is now. The WoD model is a giant game of chance where your going to end up waiting for that 1 piece with your best secondary stats to roll all the sweet tertiary stuff that you want and until then you use a slightly inferior piece. I'm not super enthusiastic about that system. I liked the pre-MoP gearing with no bullshit random stuff outside of which item dropped but I also realize I cant come up with a system that does work without major downsides while keeping people on the gear treadmill. If you do have that solution I suggest you apply with it to Blizzard, they will most likely hire you on the spot. It doesn't matter if something's the "theoretical best" so long as the other options are significantly close and, depending on what gear you see drop, you aren't utterly hamstrung by equipping the wrong items. In MoP, missing your haste breakpoint was like a 10% drop in DPS for some classes. Not being hit capped was even worse. Ideally, such a system would have the "theoretical best" be a mix of stats that were impossible to get, and so the "actual best" had several stat combinations very close together. I actually did study game design and applied to a game design grad school at one point, but through my interactions I've found that I'm really good at big picture and bad at minutiae that aren't directly iterative. That's why I'm in law, I can have a big picture idea in law, and find precedent to iterate off of to make that point, not always something you can do in game design. Which is why haste breakpoints are gone and hit is gone. Again stats can be close all they want, something will be best and the min-max crowd will flock to it. then another large part will blindly copy the min-max lists with no idea why and a 3e group will not give a shit because they don't know better. This has always been the case and will always be the case. Here's the problem with WoD though: with all that gone, every class/spec is literally "Stack X stat, then Y stat, other stats suck". There needs to be tension and options that affect your playstyle to make gear interesting. Now, it's just not. Gear is just an ilvl number and 1 secondary stat and nothing more. It's just incredibly boring. Instead, having like 4 breakpoints that are impossible to all get at the same time and all have roughly the same effect on your DPS but slightly alter how your rotation works is much more interesting.
But that would also be extremely hard to balance/tune given how many different scenarios to consider and how many classes/specs we have to interact with, and no matter what people will always find the best combination and stack towards that. That would be indeed interesting in early days when people are still leveling up their gear and doing progression, but for the long term endgame things are very likely to end up the same.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/2LUp9Gs.jpg)
