On November 05 2014 09:22 Belisarius wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2014 11:02 KissBlade wrote:LA Tiers are complete  + Show Spoiler +LA Tier List/Nation Quick Fix Notes
Each nation has suggested pretender chassis, research path & troop recruitment. LA is the era I have by far the least experience with so there could be many strat suggestions that are off. Feel free to contribute your own insight, thoughts on nations and their strats on this one. Ratings should be relatively accurate as most of LA nations live and die by how well they can handle early game expansion against tougher indies. Lemuria/R'lyeh are difficult to pinpoint as both are dom kill nations. Lemuria is likely B+ Thug/SC nation, R'lyeh is likely B- as Magocracy.
Arcoscephale
Tier: B+. Magocracy. War Elephants
Pretender: Awake Dom 9: Cyclops, Dragons, Moloch
Research: Alteration 4, Evocation 3-6, Thaumaturgy: 1
Troops: War Elephants, Hypaspists
War Elephants are sturdy even for LA and make an efficient expansion force with Hyaspists. An early rush with them can also catch players without astral/death/nature unaware in terms of answers. Consider body ethereal on the elephants against nations with low access to MR negate options. Mystics are still strong versatile mages for LA while sibyls give access to the sorcery paths. An awake expansion pretender also assists snowballing a different early game thanks to easy access to healing.
Pythium
Tier: B-. Magocracy.
Pretender: Awake dom 9: Virtue, Gorgon, Dormant: a4e4s4-6 Titan of War & Wisdom, dom9 d5 Prince of Darkness
Research: Thaumaturgy: 3, Conjuration: 3, Evocation: 3
Troops: Comitatense
Comitatense is the replacement line for Principes and functionally the same. Sadly, due to LA armaments, they are slightly less effective but the block formation with no script will still take most provinces without issues. Pythium's mage line is very strange and while serviceable, feels incomplete in how low their paths end up despite their various drawbacks. Panic & communion access from Thaumaturgy is useful earlier on especially if you decide upon using hydras for extra fear checks. Note the Prince of Death pretender is used as an SC chassis with high death for late game.
Man
Tier: A-. Troop nation
Pretender: Dormant: Tiwaz, rainbow a2d3-5 Ghost King. Imprisoned: f1e4s7n4 Monolith
Research: Alteration: 4, Evocation: 4, Thaumaturgy:1, Enchantment: 4
Troops: Longbow, Tower Guard, Wardens
Man's troops are among the best in LA while their Magister Arcane are extremely flexible. However, gem income is strange as they have no inherent way of using their capital nature gems. Thankfully indie nature mages are incredibly common though the Imprisoned Monolith chassis allows a source of use for the nature gems as well. Man has an incredibly strong early-mid game but falls off late game. The Tiwaz is an easy to use option but the Ghost King chassis is great as an SC standard as well as allows versatility late game. Wardens shouldn't be neglected as a potential stealth force for annoyance.
Ulm
Tier: S. Troop nation. Communions. Spies.
Pretender: Dormant: Fountain of Blood b3d3, Ghost King (rainbow)d3b3, Vampire Queen d3b3
Research: Evocation: 3, Thaumaturgy: 4, Construction: 4, alteration: 5
Troops: Rangers, Pikeneer, Ghoul Guardian
Ulm's S rating comes from their incredible versatility. Their troops are extremely solid with Ghoul Guardians capable of blocking most rushes. Evocation 3 early for Iron Darts can shore up early magic and Thaumaturgy allows access to the morale check spells off communions. If using the Ghost King chassis, alteration allows access to Baleful star which is incredibly potent with your tier 1 illuminated ones as spies to shut down a capital as well as offer a buff line for the Ghost King to SC. The vampire Queen is mostly for flavor and unlikely needed as your nationals provide a mini version as a blood summon.
Marignon
Tier: A. Archer nation. Sailing
Pretender: Dormant: Lord of the Forest, Titan of the Death and Rebirth, Teteo Inan, Imprisoned: Oracle. (Rainbow include earth or death for invul/iron skin buff) Baphomet
Research: Enchantment: 4, Alteration: 4, Evocation:3, Thaumaturgy: 1, Construction: 4, Blood: x
Troops: Crossbows, Halberdiers
Marignon are among the best blood hunters of LA. In addition, they possess access to both Flaming Arrows & Wind Guide so it's worth simply collecting all available indie archers and rushing an opponent once both spells are online. Sailing allows a versatile offense on some maps while blood gives access to a good mid-late Thug/SC chassis. Marignon also benefits from every scale so an imprisoned oracle can be considered.
Mictlan
Tier: S-. Bless nation.
Pretender: Imprisoned: Collosal Head: n9b9, Teotl of war: n4-9f9b4. Imprisoned: Scales Fountain of Blood
Research: Construction: 4, Alteration: 4, Blood: 4
Troops: Jaguar Warriors, Eagle Warriors, Rain Warriors
Mictlan LA plays much like EA except they gain the access to go underwater as well. Jaguar warriors should take a hard hitting bless such as b9 or f9 to be able to punch through LA armor. Mictlan gains significant power once they are able to spam their jaguar fiend summons liberally. Alteration/enchant trees are useful to buff troops (body ethereal, quickness, wood warriors among the more useful types) as well as assist with elemental resistances. While a scales LA Mictlan is playable, it likely needs the fountain of blood to assist the jaguar warriors in LA with a b9 bless.
T'ien C'hi
Tier: S. Troop nation
Pretender: Dormant: s4-6a4-6e4 Celestial General, e4-e9 Devi of Darkness, e4s4-6 Nyorai, Phoenix. Imprisoned: s6-s9 Oracle, scales, imprisoned w9s4 Carp, w9s4 Devi of Fortune, e9s4 Nyorai
Research: Alteration: 4, Enchantment: 4, Conjuration: 3, Evocation: 2-5
Troops: Archer, Footman (Shield), Barbarian Heavy Horseman, Ancestral Vessels
If you dream of playing the Mongol Hordes in dominion, TC covers that base with recruit anywhere Khans & Barbarian Heavy Horseman. Water 9 vessels demolish normal troops and your recruit anywhere mages are costly but useful in a variety of situations. The smith with an e9 bless can even take 1-11 pd provinces with himself thanks to the lesser fear on his sword. Consider an earth bless or even an s9 bless as all your mages are sacred.
Jomon
Tier: B. Magocracy
Pretender: Awake dom9 S3-5,a3-5 Dragon, w3s3-6 Carp, a4e4s4-6 Celestial General,
Research: Alteration: 4, Evocation: 3-5
Troops: Samurai Archers, Aka Oni's, Shark Troops
Jomon actually falls all the way down to a B- if no water access is provided. Their troops are incredibly overcosted in terms of resources and no shields in an era where xbows/cavalries are plentiful. In addition, they also receive the strange baseline -1 hp penalty to all it's human troops. The samurai archer is the main troop of choice though thankfully the Ashigaru with their yari's are also fieldable. Their cavalry is a complete laughing stock. Their mages, while versatile end up being too random to use with consistency and often the slow to recruit s2 variety ends up being fielded with a communion. Once you get past one of the worst early games for LA AND manage to get underwater, Jomon scales into late game very well off the backs of water recruited Ryujin's. You absolutely must take an awake pretender with this nation but the Eastern dragons are a shadow of the Western variety. Assuming conditions of map allows liberal water access, Jomon is likely a B+.
Argatha
Tier: A+. Troop nation
Pretender: Imprisoned: e4-9n9 Great Mother
Research: Evocation: 3, Conjuration 3-6, enchantment: 4. Construction: 4-6
Troops: Cave Knights, Blindfighters, Argathan light Xbow
Argatha's troops are incredibly durable, in particular, the Cave Knights and recruit everywhere blind fighters. The initial expansion squad should consist of 2-3 Cave Knights to tank anything incoming with squads of 10 blindfighters & a kthonian necromancer to bless them. Kthonian necromancers are also one of the best mages in LA with access to powerful evocations. Recruit anywhere blindfighters are made easier thanks to the resource bonus of reanimators who are capable battlemages of their own. Consider a dormant air pretender to make heavier use of evocation by allowing a wind guide caster in battle.
Abysia
Tier: B+. Troop nation
Pretender: Dormant: n5e5 Neteret of Joy, e5s5 Neteret of Crafts
Research: Evocation: 3, Conjuration: 3, Enchantment: 3-5, Construction: 4
Troops: Abysian Axe thrower, Abysian Heavy (Axe), Guardian of the Pyre
Abysia at first glance may seem like Mictlan light as their blood hunters aren't quite as efficient at hunting (though still very good) compared to the Mictlan priests. However, as a slight bonus, they can also lead troops making them slightly more versatile. In addition, warlocks not being StR assists them heavily. Smoulderghosts are very useful early game as they are difficult to kill early game. Due to the old mage plethora, alteration 5 with the neteret of joy is worth consideration for mother oak while dipping later into enchantment for gift of health. Also LA Abysia getting benefits from Growth scales can arguably make it the BEST Abysia. This rating can easily swing to an A- but my inexperience with blood nations is holding it at B+.
Caelum
Tier: A+. Magocracy. Mammoth
Pretender: Dom 9 Awake: Azi, Dormant: Gannag Menog, Spenta Mainyu, Ahura of Oath, Ahura of Wisdom
Research: Alteration: 3-4, evocation: 2-5, Enchantment: 1-3, Construction: 2-4
Troops: Mammoth, Iron Hail Archers, Spire horn archers
Mammoth are quite sturdy and reliable for early game. On the other hand … none of Caelum's other troops are. Thankfully, Caelum gets amazing diversity due to it's summons and the Harab Elders. While it loses a4 off innate mages (unless you get ungodly lucky), consider turmoil/luck for this nation as it's various pretender chassis possess chaos power and the extra gems can really assist getting it's national summons online. The iron crafters are quite cheap labrats so you don't need a ton of gold for mages. On the other hand, it stymies reliable early income for elephants so an imprisoned turmoil/luck chassis may be considered as well. Earthbounds are serviceable but far too expensive to get them out early game.
C'tis: A-. Magocracy, Thug nations, Reanimation
Pretender: Awake dom 9: Blue, Green Dragon. Dormant: Neter of Crafts, Neter of Joy
Research: Enchantment: 4, Evocation: 6, Construction: 6
Troops: Tomb Guards, Falchioneers, Light Infantry
C'tis suffers from the loss of their elite warrior options as damage dealers forcing them to rely on the inferior Falchioneers as damage dealers. The spammable javelin light infantries also suffer in an era where indie armor tend to be heavier lowering the shock value of the initial javelin volleys. Tomb Guards are very durable but have a difficult time. On the other hand, C'tis enjoys a great thug/sc chassis in the form of the Revived Tomb King and have reanimation ability. In fact, they are the defacto death power in LA as their Sauromancers are recruit everywhere. They also have plentiful access to banefire but lack of precision ensures it's only useful against massed troops.
Pangaea: A-. Troop nation
Pretender: Dormant: a4e4s6 Titan of War and Wisdom, w4-6d4-6 Draikana, n4d4 Dom9 Carrion Dragon
Research: Alteration: 5, Enchantment: 3, Construction: 4
Troops: Satyr Hoplites, Dryad Hoplites, Centaur Cataphract, Satyr Snipers, Stymphalian Birds
Pangaea loses it's amazing sacreds from EA/MA. The dryad hoplites are quite serviceable as they're tough to kill in hand to hand. The satyr hoplites are good at holding lines while centaur/minotaurs provide the offense. Thanks to Centaur sages, Pan can research a heckuva lot better allowing early strength of giants, legion of steels. Centaur cataphracts in particular scale very well late game thanks to being one of the better troop buff chassis as well as recuperation allowing veterans to stack up some stats.
Midgard: S. Troop nation. Magocracy.
Pretender: Dormant: a4s6d3 Allfather, f4a4w4 Father of Winter, Imprisoned: a4e4n9 Keeper of the Bridge, Idol of Sorcery+Scales
Research: Evocation:2-4, Alteration: 3-4, Enchantment: 3, Construction: 4,
Troops: Huskarl (spear), Einhere, Skinshifter, Vans
Midgard is S simply because it has a wealth of options. While it's hard to justify blessing Vans as Vanjarls are cap only, skinshifter/einheres are still offense machines. Galdermans are also serviceable thugs thanks to air/earth buffs making them mini skrattis on top of being amazing battlemages that regen and can trapeze anywhere. S2 lab rats are also quite useful and Vanjarls are available when you need sailing or glamour thug options. Blood & death access both ensure a sturdy late game. Galdermans alone turn this nation into an amazing magocracy as literally every roll they can get is useful. I don't know what IW was thinking with this mage being a recruit anywhere/non STR.
Utgard: A. Magocracy. Thug nation.
Pretender: Dom9 d4 Dracolich, Dormant: a3d4 Bog Mummy, a4e4n5 Keeper of the Bridge
Research: Evocation: 4-5, Thaum: 1, Alteration: 1-4, Construction: 4
Troops: Jotun Javelinist, Jotun Huskarls, Garmhirdlings
Utgard still gets access to Skrattis but a bunch of them tend to turn up on the old side making them more useful as blood access than thugs. Thankfully the younger ones can still do standard thug tricks. In addition, Seithkona are amazing recruit all mages allowing communion, nether evocation (with eagle eye), communions and astral tricks with more powerful Nornas. Expansion also tends to go smoothly thanks to Garmhirdlings taking little resources. Late game also Nornas can booster to very good endgame sorcery paths if they reach key booster artifacts.
Bogarus: B+. Magocracy
Pretender: Awake Dom 9: w4 Dragon, n4 Dragon. Awake: f4a4 Virtue
Research: Alteration:3/Enchantment 2-3, Evocation: 4, Thaumaturgy: 1, Conjuration: 2,
Troops: Voi Archers, Pesthi City Guards, Malaia Druzhinas
Bogarus troop line is in various shades of bad to worse. Peshti City Guards form a good line but Voi Archers are hopelessly outclassed in LA. An expander pretender is absolutely mandatory for this nation & the recommended alt/enchantment magic paths are simply for buffs for whichever chassis is selected. Druzhinas look ok but fall into the classic case of expensive cavalry elites that melt the moment magic hits the field. On the other hand, Bogarus has some of the best mages in the game with starets being absolutely amazing diversity in paths. In addition, having spammable A2's, S2's and s1d1's allow many battle magic options while occultists open up blood for mid-late game.
Patala: B+. Magocracy
Pretender: Awake Dom 9: Devi of Darkness, n4 Dragon, f4 Dragon. Awake: Destroyer of Worlds, Dormant: f1e1-4s6 Nataraja, e4s6 Nyorai
Research: Alteration: 4, Enchantment: 3, Evocation: 5, Construction: 4
Troops: Atavi Archers, Light Bandar Archers, Vanara Swordsmen, War Elephants
Patala battlemagic can be hard to leverage initially as it relies heavily on debuffs and buffs for troops that aren't very good. Rust Mist end up being a very fast favorite for this nation as well as body ethereal and stellar cascades. The main issue with Patala is it stands in the age of crossbows and Patala nationals have an absolute miserable time against xbows. 50% of their army is likely to compose of indies or mercs to some degree. However, Patala enjoys a good late game with high paths as well as astral access. A gem generator is absolute essential for this nation to assist with employing it's late game conjurations. Note Patala has access to blood summons from Lanka but it's hard to leverage unless you manage to find some indies to hunt for you.
Gath: A-. Bless nation
Pretender: Dormant: a4e4n4 Annukai of Love and War, f4d4-6 Lord of Summer Plague. Imprisoned: e4n9 Annukai of Growth and Rebirth, S6-9 Oracle
Research: Construction: 4, Blood: 4, Thaumaturgy: 1, Evocation: 5
Troops: Gibbors, Levite Zealots, Gittite Soldiers, Gadite Swordsmen, Benjaminite Slingers
Gath's mages are quite difficult to use in battle, discounting the typical Sibyl squads of stellar cascades under a banner or communion. While the astral spread Yeddoni can give access to good battlefield spells, the mage fort turns required for one is simply not efficient. Thankfully Gath has a good troopline and Levites are non cap (though the 800 gold temples make this difficult to leverage). This can give enough time to get a blood econ running for it's powerful Se'rim and She'dim blood summons to come on the field while communioned Yeddoni's simply provide buff support.
Ragha. S+. Troop nation. Magocracy.
Pretender: Dormant: w9e4 Annukai of Sweet Waters
Research: Evocation: 3, Construction: 2, Conjuration: 3, Alteration: 4, Enchantment: 4
Troops: Turan Infantry, Zhayedan, Turan War Elephants, Savaran Guards
On paper, Ragha looks like a complex nation due to it's awkward temperature based recruitment. In practice this is not true at all. Until fixed, Ragha should be played strictly as a heat nation as w9e4 Zhayedans are absolutely ridiculous units with squads of two being enough for any expansion without any losses. Ragha is even equipped with the flying f1 priest Athravan to allow flying squads of immortal gryphons to rampage past enemy backlines. In addition, elemental resistances defend against most generic evocation counters to Ragha's units allowing Savaran Guards to scale better than most elites. Finally, temples, though expensive at 800 gold per, gives free fire gems monthly. Ragha also gets blood access but it's mostly irrelevant as they would likely have decided most games by the third year.
Atlantis. S. Troop nation. Water access
Pretenders: Awaken dom9 n4 Dragon. Dormant: a4e4w2-5 Father of Winter, a3e3d4n2 Ghost King, Imprisoned: w9e4 Lord of the Waves. Imprisoned: s7-9 Oracle, f1e4s6n4 Monolith
Research: Thaumaturgy: 3, Evocation:5, Alteration: 6, Construction: 6
Troops: Arssartuts, Seal hunter, Ice Warriors
Atlantis is a S tier nation assuming the map offers any water access. While it's land units are adequate with arssartuts being very good cheap sacreds, it truly shines once it gains access to Forgiving Fathers and Unsleeping. Atlantis is also incredibly hard to kick out of the water in LA due to most national magic spreads and Atlantis' own strength underwater. Atlantis also enjoys very good battle magic as there are many evos that they can cast of which they are immune to themselves such as freezing mist, sailors death, etc. This eliminates a lot of friendly fire issues other nations may encounter employing AoE's. In addition, magical weapons & darkvision allows a variety of tricks such as acid storm, stygian rain & darkness. Just a few comments on the formatting for these from a thread lurker. These are super useful. Idk if you've thought about it, but your tier spread for LA looks like: S+ |
S ||||
S- |
A+ ||
A ||
A- ||||
B+ ||||
B |
B- | If you've got nothing below B-, I can't help but think you could rescale it a bit to use Cs and Ds and have less S? Idk, to me "S" should be "holy shit this nation is broken", rather than simply the top 25%, especially when 3/4 of the whole set is A-and-above. I'm lazy and haven't checked the others, but I seem to remember them being less top-heavy. Also the pretender lines are a little confusing. For example, the TC one (which I know is the most complicated) is: Show nested quote +Dormant: s4-6a4-6e4 Celestial General, e4-e9 Devi of Darkness, e4s4-6 Nyorai, Phoenix. Imprisoned: s6-s9 Oracle, scales, imprisoned w9s4 Carp, w9s4 Devi of Fortune, e9s4 Nyorai I assume "Dormant:" means "the pretenders that follow are all dormant", but that's not immediately clear when everything is comma-delineated, especially when you use "Imprisoned:" but also specifically list the Carp as imprisoned. It's also not super clear whether "scales" is for the oracle or the carp. Your nomenclature for paths also changes occasionally, eg e4-6 vs. e4-e6. Could I suggest a slightly more standard breakdown? Say: Show nested quote +Dormant: S[4-6]A[4-6]E4 Celestial General; E[4-9] Devi of Darkness; E4S[4-6] Nyorai; Phoenix. Imprisoned: S[6-9]+scales Oracle; W9S4 Carp; W9S4 Devi of Fortune; E9S4 Nyorai.
Heyas, thanks for the feedback. The format is a bit sloppy and I think I should correct it when I get some time. As for the letter ranking, it's more for flexibility in case I want to change things for the future and also to keep it consistent. S is actually reserved for nations that should feel very strong throughout the game whereas D means the nation is practically unplayable. (For example, MA Pelagia atm).
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