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If you want to, though Mictlan is another major LA powerhouse (and Atlantis too, once they get their sea forts up). I want to test them out in MP in D4 (use to play them fairly regularly in D3) just to gauge the power level shift, and if people want me to change, I will.
I'd just switch to Patala or, if I really wanted a challenge, Pythium (dem heretics so painful), which is probably now one of the worst LA nations (though they do have their strengths and are viable sorta).
None of the nations I currently see in this game are really weak (LA Caelum will be difficult to play, but the recent patch has definitively shored them up from "worst LA nation ever lel" to "definitely viable/maybe strong").
Jomon, once they enter the seas/get the research/gem income to call their national summons is pretty scary as the game progresses (as long as they can get over their extreme early-game resource shortage), Man was on the right end of the STR change (and their troop selection and mages are all pretty damn good [longbowz and x-bow wardenz]), LA Agartha was reworked several patches ago (and was similarly dragged out of the "worst LA nation ever keke" pit), and Gath, Bogarus, and Bloody Mary all remain excellent nations.
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Purely strategic conjecture:
In LA, Ulm, Mictlan and Atlantis are all top dog powerhouse teams but they play within the same rules as everyone else (except Mictlan but Mictlan has very specific counters that all nations have access to). However, I will argue that in a tight map game, Ragha gets too much early game out of their pretender choice + scale points. I wouldn't bother even with their Gryphons despite them being indeed quite good. Armored Elephants are the way to go for troop expansions and they have early game Abysia side to supplement early wars along with a pretender that cost very little that requires most nations to have a minimum of research 4's to deal with. The money isn't a big issue because early game you're gated by resources anyway. You have free points for growth but taking Production 3 is the better bet.
LA Argatha is top tier now IMO btw. Patala is very indie dependent but they are one of the best for taking out Heavy cavs/knight provinces.
Bogarus & Marignon are both playable nations but surely Tien Chi, LA Niefel (forgot what they're called but they get astral/death), LA Van shouldn't be left out of strong nation discussions for late game. Jomon is actually my pick because I'm convinced it is one of the absolute worst LA nations while still remaining fun to play.
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Rebuttal: While tramplers are fantastic for expansion, most nations have access to the easy counters to them, and tramplers are actually pretty bad once your opponents bring out the right mage support; False Fetter, Frighten, or Bonds of Fire spam+an offensively oriented army, or heavy cavalry have always been the traditional, low-research way to completely wreck trampler rushes. And, after awhile, they soon become massive upkeep-gold sinks.
For much the same reason as Arco and Caelum switch off from Tramplers ASAP once expansion is over, elephants, Ragha has to do so anyways.
And on small duel maps, I can't say as I don't play those. I'd probably think LA TC is now extremely powerful on those, as Khans/Barb Cav are recruitable everywhere now.
EDIT:
I was talking about the nations we have in the game right now 
On Jomon, they just need to get time to build up. Their dragon-mages are among the absolute best in the LA (plus they transform into fucking dragons), and their summons offer a fantastic amount of diversity once you get the research and gems for them. They definitely aren't weak once they get going (that's the conditional part though :s).
Whereas LA Pythium is just...zZzzZ. Sure they get pretty good recruit everywhere troops, and they do get recruit-everywhere mages, but the mages all have fking Inept researcher (and are all heretics bar one, which kills your Dom so bad), and the troops, while good, are all MM1. They're still workable, since they can use Heliodromus for fire-evo support and they still have the sturdy battleline of the Romans. but they're severely lacking something to block FOR. Nature, for all it's uses, is sorely lacking in battlefield killyness as a path. Perhaps go for Mother Oak-Gift of Health and then try and get Tarts with decent research from Mystes, or using Hydras/Foul Vapors, midgame.
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On July 09 2014 06:32 Lord Tolkien wrote:
Rebuttal: While tramplers are fantastic for expansion, most nations have access to the easy counters to them, and tramplers are actually pretty bad once your opponents bring out the right mage support; False Fetter, Frighten, or Bonds of Fire spam+an offensively oriented army, or heavy cavalry have always been the traditional, low-research way to completely wreck trampler rushes. And, after awhile, they soon become massive upkeep-gold sinks.
For much the same reason as Arco and Caelum switch off from Tramplers ASAP once expansion is over, elephants, Ragha has to do so anyways.
And on small duel maps, I can't say as I don't play those. I'd probably think LA TC is now extremely powerful on those, as Khans/Barb Cav are recruitable everywhere now.
Not everyone has access to those spells. I don't see how Frighten helps when they just keep moving their previous expansion elephants around your territory. If you're going to chase them down with some mages, they'll be more than happy to jump on those mages with a teleporting 5 movement pretender. Or build a bunch of those gryphons and maul the backline with standard aby troops.
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I'll be needing an extension on TLG2 please can't do turn untill tomorrow night +- 20 hours, sorry for the wait guys :/
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haha tolkien, don't worry, that wasn't meant serious. It is just a rare sight, that someone praises his own nation as super powerful :D Usually, and even more on TL, everyone claims to play the weakest race/nation and everyone else being OP :D
And we will see how it goes.
I would never dare to predict a winner of an MP-game at turn1, even if I would know everyones pretender, scales etc and starting position. Dominions is way too complex and there are way too many decisions to be made.
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On July 09 2014 06:42 KissBlade wrote:Show nested quote +On July 09 2014 06:32 Lord Tolkien wrote:
Rebuttal: While tramplers are fantastic for expansion, most nations have access to the easy counters to them, and tramplers are actually pretty bad once your opponents bring out the right mage support; False Fetter, Frighten, or Bonds of Fire spam+an offensively oriented army, or heavy cavalry have always been the traditional, low-research way to completely wreck trampler rushes. And, after awhile, they soon become massive upkeep-gold sinks.
For much the same reason as Arco and Caelum switch off from Tramplers ASAP once expansion is over, elephants, Ragha has to do so anyways.
And on small duel maps, I can't say as I don't play those. I'd probably think LA TC is now extremely powerful on those, as Khans/Barb Cav are recruitable everywhere now. Not everyone has access to those spells. I don't see how Frighten helps when they just keep moving their previous expansion elephants around your territory. If you're going to chase them down with some mages, they'll be more than happy to jump on those mages with a teleporting 5 movement pretender. Or build a bunch of those gryphons and maul the backline with standard aby troops.
Low morale into forced rout is the general strat. When the elephants are in hostile dominion, it's extremely easy to provoke them with Frighten. Additionally, you can then hold them with Awe troops (or an Awe'd SC pretender). Also Repel.
It doesn't work as well against Ragha due to Fanaticism after they get a crown on the Shah, but it's still fairly useful anti-trampler tactic for high D nations.
Most nations do have counters for tramplers, overall. Just a matter of planning for them. Only a few don't.
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On July 09 2014 06:51 Lord Tolkien wrote:Show nested quote +On July 09 2014 06:42 KissBlade wrote:On July 09 2014 06:32 Lord Tolkien wrote:
Rebuttal: While tramplers are fantastic for expansion, most nations have access to the easy counters to them, and tramplers are actually pretty bad once your opponents bring out the right mage support; False Fetter, Frighten, or Bonds of Fire spam+an offensively oriented army, or heavy cavalry have always been the traditional, low-research way to completely wreck trampler rushes. And, after awhile, they soon become massive upkeep-gold sinks.
For much the same reason as Arco and Caelum switch off from Tramplers ASAP once expansion is over, elephants, Ragha has to do so anyways.
And on small duel maps, I can't say as I don't play those. I'd probably think LA TC is now extremely powerful on those, as Khans/Barb Cav are recruitable everywhere now. Not everyone has access to those spells. I don't see how Frighten helps when they just keep moving their previous expansion elephants around your territory. If you're going to chase them down with some mages, they'll be more than happy to jump on those mages with a teleporting 5 movement pretender. Or build a bunch of those gryphons and maul the backline with standard aby troops. Low morale into forced rout is the general strat. When the elephants are in hostile dominion, it's extremely easy to provoke them with Frighten. Additionally, you can then hold them with Awe troops (or an Awe'd SC pretender). Also Repel. It doesn't work as well against Ragha due to Fanaticism after they get a crown on the Shah, but it's still fairly useful anti-trampler tactic for high D nations. Most nations do have counters for tramplers, overall. Just a matter of planning for them. Only a few don't.
Sure if we're talking about elephants in itself, then yes, every nation can deal with that. I specifically mentioned it in terms of Ragha's lineup. Though obviously the elephants themselves don't make Ragha OP. I only brought them up as my investment of choice if we're talking about their gryphons that I think elephants make a better early game investment.
BTW, I also agree on your thoughts that LA Pythium needs some love. Their only good thing happens to be some decent battlemages with roman troops. I actually think Hydras are very good blessed properly and they get the awesome Gorgon pretender chassis but Pythium LA historically has a weird midgame area where they just flounder around. I couldn't get them to work at all so I'd say they're probably down there with Jomon & Lemuria in terms of LA nations that are bottom rung. In fact, I'd potentially even rate Pythium dead last on the "tier list". Of course it's dominions so you can win with anything but Pythium isn't even fun to try to win with because half their stuff that you recruit are just annoying to use properly.
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Regarding Lemuria:
Grab a strong bless (you're Lemuria, you can do a double, say D9N9, easy)
Summon Consuls
???
profit (enjoy using Wraith Lord Tier SCs starting turn 2)
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On July 09 2014 07:56 Lord Tolkien wrote:
Regarding Lemuria:
Grab a strong bless (you're Lemuria, you can do a double easy)
Summon Consuls
???
profit (enjoy using Wraith Lord Tier SCs starting turn 2)
That's actually their only "strat" though. The issue with Lemuria, as you pointed out is their wraith consuls are AMAZING but at the cost of summoning your mages. So essentially you're just hoping to play a thug nation that relies entirely on death. You expand great and have a good early game but once you reach neighbors, most people gang you and you don't have the mage corp to get into mid game as easily as they do.
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On July 09 2014 08:00 KissBlade wrote:Show nested quote +On July 09 2014 07:56 Lord Tolkien wrote:
Regarding Lemuria:
Grab a strong bless (you're Lemuria, you can do a double easy)
Summon Consuls
???
profit (enjoy using Wraith Lord Tier SCs starting turn 2) That's actually their only "strat" though. The issue with Lemuria, as you pointed out is their wraith consuls are AMAZING but at the cost of summoning your mages. So essentially you're just hoping to play a thug nation that relies entirely on death. You expand great and have a good early game but once you reach neighbors, most people gang you and you don't have the mage corp to get into mid game as easily as they do.
Just do what Ermor does and rush BoT to fuck everyone else over :s.
There's no need to recruit an excessive number of Consuls, after all, and you can probably end up setting up a living mage recruitment center with an indie of any kind.
That being said, I do agree, though Lemuria always fort spams, and the lack of supply in Lemurian land makes it a...delicate balance invading Lemuria.
Overall why I effectively banned it; it's annoying for a newbie game primarily to play vs it. Seriously annoying.
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On July 09 2014 08:09 Lord Tolkien wrote:Show nested quote +On July 09 2014 08:00 KissBlade wrote:On July 09 2014 07:56 Lord Tolkien wrote:
Regarding Lemuria:
Grab a strong bless (you're Lemuria, you can do a double easy)
Summon Consuls
???
profit (enjoy using Wraith Lord Tier SCs starting turn 2) That's actually their only "strat" though. The issue with Lemuria, as you pointed out is their wraith consuls are AMAZING but at the cost of summoning your mages. So essentially you're just hoping to play a thug nation that relies entirely on death. You expand great and have a good early game but once you reach neighbors, most people gang you and you don't have the mage corp to get into mid game as easily as they do. Just do what Ermor does and rush BoT to fuck everyone else over :s. There's no need to recruit an excessive number of Consuls, after all, and you can probably end up setting up a living mage recruitment center with an indie of any kind. That being said, I do agree, though Lemuria always fort spams, and the lack of supply in Lemurian land makes it a...delicate balance invading Lemuria. Overall why I effectively banned it; it's annoying for a newbie game primarily to play vs it. Seriously annoying.
Oh it's understandable why Lemuria/Ryleh gets banned in newbie games. They rely on people knowing that it's essentially a dangerous animal that essentially declares war on neighbors by default and needs to be ganged right away. Similarly to even play Lemuria properly doesn't teach you the dominion game itself because everything is so different compared to other nations.
Though speaking of weird domkill nations, reminds me of a MA C'tis dom3 game where I found loremasters. Sad cruel irony =(
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Now Asphodel, THAT's a brokenly OP dom-kill nation.
Because cheap temples, Domkill of everything imminent.
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BTW if you swapped off LA Ulm, I would've taken it  They were one of my favorite nations in 2 & 3. Sad because the EA game, Tien Chi got taken really early too =( and I hate playing the 'heims in the MA game.
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Additionally, reading the 4chan /domg/ threads are hilarious.
http://boards.4chan.org/vg/thread/73000651/domg-dominions-general
Warning: it's 4chan.
On July 09 2014 08:36 KissBlade wrote:BTW if you swapped off LA Ulm, I would've taken it They were one of my favorite nations in 2 & 3. Sad because the EA game, Tien Chi got taken really early too =( and I hate playing the 'heims in the MA game.
There's always Eriu. non-blood ponymen best ponymen.
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still waiting for skirmjan and sunaj submitting their pretender...
Once I see all pretenders in and no one asking for a further delay here, the party starts
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This magic primer is much more ambitious a project than I realized. Oh wow, this'll be long.
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On July 09 2014 06:32 Lord Tolkien wrote:
Whereas LA Pythium is just...zZzzZ. Sure they get pretty good recruit everywhere troops, and they do get recruit-everywhere mages, but the mages all have fking Inept researcher (and are all heretics bar one, which kills your Dom so bad), and the troops, while good, are all MM1. They're still workable, since they can use Heliodromus for fire-evo support and they still have the sturdy battleline of the Romans. but they're severely lacking something to block FOR. Nature, for all it's uses, is sorely lacking in battlefield killyness as a path. Perhaps go for Mother Oak-Gift of Health and then try and get Tarts with decent research from Mystes, or using Hydras/Foul Vapors, midgame.
Actually, only the limitanei line has MM1 (historically in the late roman empire they are those that only guard the frontier forts), the comitatus has mapmove 3 (o.O) and the palatine has mapmove 2
but of course, they do have a lot of other problems as well...
Btw my pretender is in, sorry for the slight delay, i was actually figuring out what to name it and the final touches in the last 30 minutes
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On July 09 2014 09:26 Skirmjan wrote:Show nested quote +On July 09 2014 06:32 Lord Tolkien wrote:
Whereas LA Pythium is just...zZzzZ. Sure they get pretty good recruit everywhere troops, and they do get recruit-everywhere mages, but the mages all have fking Inept researcher (and are all heretics bar one, which kills your Dom so bad), and the troops, while good, are all MM1. They're still workable, since they can use Heliodromus for fire-evo support and they still have the sturdy battleline of the Romans. but they're severely lacking something to block FOR. Nature, for all it's uses, is sorely lacking in battlefield killyness as a path. Perhaps go for Mother Oak-Gift of Health and then try and get Tarts with decent research from Mystes, or using Hydras/Foul Vapors, midgame. Actually, only the limitanei line has MM1 (historically in the late roman empire they are those that only guard the frontier forts), the comitatus has mapmove 3 (o.O) and the palatine has mapmove 2 but of course, they do have a lot of other problems as well... Btw my pretender is in, sorry for the slight delay, i was actually figuring out what to name it and the final touches in the last 30 minutes
The limitanei line is the only one that's MM1 yes, but they're the only ones you can recruit out-of-fort. If you could recruit the higher MM units out-of-fort, Pythium would be in a significantly better position, much like how LA TC has actually been improved a good deal with the out-of-fort Khan/Barb Cav recruitment availability, allowing them to rapidly raise armies at need (and saving a warchest beforehand to curb upkeep). Never underestimate the ability to rapidly convert gold into troops and combat power.
It may be possible to do something with revelers and maenad freespawn (+nature buffs) but...trying to start a blood economy with a 20% random will be difficult, to say the least. And maenads kinda suck in the LA, to put it lightly.
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Team Liquid 2 announcement: I'm going camping for a couple of days, so is it OK with everyone if I delay the turn after next for 48 hours? (may not actually need that long, some safety margin is built in)
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EPT
