I consider WC3's story to be of better quality than what WoW has delivered lately. I don't think it's necessary to be a nostalgic elitist and claim WoW doesn't hold up against WC3 though. They are different story-telling medias.
It's important to understand that MMOs are down right awful for story-telling. They really are. You have to give the notion that the player is advancing in the story, yet the world has to stay consistent and has to stay the same for new players... It forces the developers to make compromises, and that isn't good for the story.
The early days of WoW were great about immersion though. I've never played WoW itself, but I have played on a certain private server which reproduces the normal gaming conditions of WoW (normal drops, no donating to get power, etc.). And while walking around in the world of TBC, I had to say it all felt pretty close to WC3. It was something to walk in the ravaged lands of Lordaeron, and see a Ziggurat as an actual unit of WC3 would see it. Go into the Ziggurat, etc. It was just something else.
Anyway... Yeah, I would say that up until Wrath of the Lich King, WoW's story was alright. Then, they started to go with more convoluted stuff, like would-be spaceships with the Naaru and things like that... Plus now, time travel or parallel universes with Warlords of Draenor. The franchise is starting to tire itself a bit. You can only turn so many good guys into villains, and you can only bring so many villains back to life or come up with some wonky reason as to why they're defeated but not quite dead.
On the other topic, up until recently I believed we would eventually see WC4. Now, I'm not so sure anymore. Blizzard's focus is clearly shifting to casual games (see HotS, HS, Overwatch), and another RTS would not be casual. Perhap they can draw from some of the concepts they've created in HotS and create a hybrid-like WC4.
On the other hand, I also don't think Blizzard would be willing to not have at least one truly competitive game. It's in their history to have that, and I think they'll want to hang on to it. They are all about the legacy. But then again, Hearthstone is pretty damn competitive, and HotS is shaping up rather well on that side also.
I don't think we'll get WC4 anymore. I mean I don't know. I'm really on the fence about it.
who cares about lore? ^^ just say 1000 years passed, everyone except the nightelve charakters are dead. Illidan feels like causing some chaos. somebody (like Irenicus from BG2) starts summoning undead stuff and orcs and humans have to fight for survival. orcs give up civilication and return to their savage agressive roots. better story than Sc2 and Diablo 3 already ^^ just keep it simple
wasnt Sc2 a big success? isnt it logical to make another Rts as Sc2 doesnt generate money other than its inital buying price? they have homefield advantage too; nobody can step into the RTS market anymore; its all Blizzards. meanwhile there is huge competition in other genres
@tenks: i like that idea a lot . would create a lot of cool possibilities of gamingexperience and epicness
I think it could be cool if there was some crossover/tie-in with WoW and WC4. Like the next WoW expansion has the same locations/NPCs as WC4 but obviously focuses more on your individual character's contribution where WC4 would be more about the overarching army/war storyline. Heck if they're going to keep with the Hero system in WC4 like WC3 maybe even make it so you can import your hero or something into the campaign.
On March 21 2015 09:46 AssyrianKing wrote: Where is best to play for Australian players on B.Net or other servers, and also where is best to play DOTA 1 ?
bnet is pretty laggy, at least euro server is. it's still playable but it does take some getting used to. idk about australia.. the only reasonably popular private server is w3arena which has servers in europe and na only afaik..
Anyway... Yeah, I would say that up until Wrath of the Lich King, WoW's story was alright. Then, they started to go with more convoluted stuff, like would-be spaceships with the Naaru and things like that... Plus now, time travel or parallel universes with Warlords of Draenor.
Umm, first of all the spaceships and Naaru was in WoW 2 years before Wrath of the Lich King. Time travel has been an extensive part of Warcraft lore since 2004 with the War of the Ancients trilogy and was also in Burning Crusade (before Wrath)
On the other topic, up until recently I believed we would eventually see WC4. Now, I'm not so sure anymore. Blizzard's focus is clearly shifting to casual games (see HotS, HS, Overwatch), and another RTS would not be casual. Perhap they can draw from some of the concepts they've created in HotS and create a hybrid-like WC4.
Ummmm that wouldn't be the reason. Their RTS team has been extremely busy for the last 10 years with Starcraft. It's the reason why Starcraft fans had to wait 12 years for Starcraft II, out of the 5 teams Blizzard has only 1 does RTS.
That being said, RTS has been on decline, so who knows if another RTS would be worth it business-wise.
Anyway... Yeah, I would say that up until Wrath of the Lich King, WoW's story was alright. Then, they started to go with more convoluted stuff, like would-be spaceships with the Naaru and things like that... Plus now, time travel or parallel universes with Warlords of Draenor.
Umm, first of all the spaceships and Naaru was in WoW 2 years before Wrath of the Lich King. Time travel has been an extensive part of Warcraft lore since 2004 with the War of the Ancients trilogy and was also in Burning Crusade (before Wrath)
On the other topic, up until recently I believed we would eventually see WC4. Now, I'm not so sure anymore. Blizzard's focus is clearly shifting to casual games (see HotS, HS, Overwatch), and another RTS would not be casual. Perhap they can draw from some of the concepts they've created in HotS and create a hybrid-like WC4.
Ummmm that wouldn't be the reason. Their RTS team has been extremely busy for the last 10 years with Starcraft. It's the reason why Starcraft fans had to wait 12 years for Starcraft II, out of the 5 teams Blizzard has only 1 does RTS.
That being said, RTS has been on decline, so who knows if another RTS would be worth it business-wise.
I played very little of WoW, so I did not know the spaceships came so early. My point stands though, it's ridiculous to have them. And yeah, I knew about time travel. I read the War of the Anciens trilogy, but in that story the time travel plot point was at least more believable than the alternate universe thing they're doing with Warlords of Draenor.
There was also the Caverns of Time in WoW, and basically anything involving the Bronze dragonflight. I thought it was all pretty bad.
About the RTS bit, I just disagree. I believe they split some of their RTS team to work on HotS. I know Dustin Browder was reassigned to HotS. Clearly, Blizzard is big enough to multitask and have more than one team on the same genre, especially with Titan cancelled.
Nonetheness, it would make little sense to have two RTS games on top of HotS, that is true enough. I believe that is the main reason. WC4 would directly compete with SC2, so they'd be shooting themselves in the foot. Still... I'm having less and less faith in WC4 ever coming out. I just don't see it anymore. Not sure that I want to see it, given how greedy Blizzard has become.
I played very little of WoW, so I did not know the spaceships came so early. My point stands though, it's ridiculous to have them. And yeah, I knew about time travel. I read the War of the Anciens trilogy, but in that story the time travel plot point was at least more believable than the alternate universe thing they're doing with Warlords of Draenor.
There was also the Caverns of Time in WoW, and basically anything involving the Bronze dragonflight. I thought it was all pretty bad.
Yeah we don't see eye-to-eye at all. I personally don't mind time travel as in time travel that affects us in the present. Caverns of time was OK, because its entire purpose was to show people who don't play the RTS the important events of the books. Like the battle of Hyjal, Queen Azshara & The Legion, Arthas killing the people of Stratholme. It's very self contained.
WoD is OK I think... like barely anyone played Warcraft II, and you got to meet all these interesting clan leaders as well as seeing an Unbroken Outland. That's interesting...I suppose I don't mind time travel as long as it doesn't screw with our current timeline. the only SHITTY part is that it feels like we're taking this detour and we're not going to see any development of characters or storyline for 2 years. and for Warcraft that super shitty because there are characters in Warcraft we LITERALLY have not heard from in NINETEEN years (Turyalon & Alleria)
About the RTS bit, I just disagree. I believe they split some of their RTS team to work on HotS. I know Dustin Browder was reassigned to HotS. Clearly, Blizzard is big enough to multitask and have more than one team on the same genre, especially with Titan cancelled.
Nonetheness, it would make little sense to have two RTS games on top of HotS, that is true enough. I believe that is the main reason. WC4 would directly compete with SC2, so they'd be shooting themselves in the foot. Still... I'm having less and less faith in WC4 ever coming out. I just don't see it anymore. Not sure that I want to see it, given how greedy Blizzard has become.
Dustin Browder is game director for both HOTS and SC2 still. And you're acting as if HOTS a giant team. HOTS is a very small team. There's like 11 technical people on that team. They're not going to make Warcraft 4 with 11 technical people. I would think they would make a new engine from scratch since the SC2 engine is 10 years old:
Yeah, it doesn't make sense to do 2 RTSes at the same time.
If you think Blizzard is THAT greedy, then the greediest decision is not to make a Warcraft 4 at all because RTS is an almost completely dead genre. They'd make much more money in other genres.
Dustin Browder is game director for both HOTS and SC2 still. And you're acting as if HOTS a giant team. HOTS is a very small team. There's like 11 technical people on that team. They're not going to make Warcraft 4 with 11 technical people. I would think they would make a new engine from scratch since the SC2 engine is 10 years old: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SvLsOF-c0_0
Yeah, it doesn't make sense to do 2 RTSes at the same time.
If you think Blizzard is THAT greedy, then the greediest decision is not to make a Warcraft 4 at all because RTS is an almost completely dead genre. They'd make much more money in other genres.
I believe that with 140 people, they could make WC4. They just choose not to, for the reasons previously stated. The RTS genre was also already well on its way to being dead during the development of SC2. I don't think that really affects Blizzard anyway. They could publish their own Tetris and it would still sell, because they have a huge fan base.
I believe Cyro once discussed the engine thing. Mostly it seems to be Blizzard cutting costs by using the old engine and tweaking it for SC2. Given the scope of SC2 and the general performance it offers, I think making another engine would have been pretty valuable.
Dustin Browder is game director for both HOTS and SC2 still. And you're acting as if HOTS a giant team. HOTS is a very small team. There's like 11 technical people on that team. They're not going to make Warcraft 4 with 11 technical people. I would think they would make a new engine from scratch since the SC2 engine is 10 years old: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SvLsOF-c0_0
Yeah, it doesn't make sense to do 2 RTSes at the same time.
If you think Blizzard is THAT greedy, then the greediest decision is not to make a Warcraft 4 at all because RTS is an almost completely dead genre. They'd make much more money in other genres.
I believe that with 140 people, they could make WC4. They just choose not to, for the reasons previously stated. The RTS genre was also already well on its way to being dead during the development of SC2. I don't think that really affects Blizzard anyway. They could publish their own Tetris and it would still sell, because they have a huge fan base.
I believe Cyro once discussed the engine thing. Mostly it seems to be Blizzard cutting costs by using the old engine and tweaking it for SC2. Given the scope of SC2 and the general performance it offers, I think making another engine would have been pretty valuable.
Anyway, digressions.
I'm wrong. You're right I misread. Their AMA said 11 "technical design staff". 140 people is a lot. I can't see where they're all working, looking at the game.
"They could publish their own Tetris and it would still sell, because they have a huge fan base."
Thats the problem, making your own Tetris doesnt cost anything, a big RTS is super expensive to make and takes many many years. Think of the opportunity cost. Why spend so much on an RTS when RPGs/MOBAs/FPSs are the real money makers? That's why Warcraft 4 isn't going to happen imo. And if they do make it, well let's just say I won't be mad at the "I told you sos" in the year 2023 :-P
On March 20 2015 08:00 Spaylz wrote: I consider WC3's story to be of better quality than what WoW has delivered lately. I don't think it's necessary to be a nostalgic elitist and claim WoW doesn't hold up against WC3 though. They are different story-telling medias.
It's important to understand that MMOs are down right awful for story-telling. They really are. You have to give the notion that the player is advancing in the story, yet the world has to stay consistent and has to stay the same for new players... It forces the developers to make compromises, and that isn't good for the story.
The early days of WoW were great about immersion though. I've never played WoW itself, but I have played on a certain private server which reproduces the normal gaming conditions of WoW (normal drops, no donating to get power, etc.). And while walking around in the world of TBC, I had to say it all felt pretty close to WC3. It was something to walk in the ravaged lands of Lordaeron, and see a Ziggurat as an actual unit of WC3 would see it. Go into the Ziggurat, etc. It was just something else.
Anyway... Yeah, I would say that up until Wrath of the Lich King, WoW's story was alright. Then, they started to go with more convoluted stuff, like would-be spaceships with the Naaru and things like that... Plus now, time travel or parallel universes with Warlords of Draenor. The franchise is starting to tire itself a bit. You can only turn so many good guys into villains, and you can only bring so many villains back to life or come up with some wonky reason as to why they're defeated but not quite dead.
On the other topic, up until recently I believed we would eventually see WC4. Now, I'm not so sure anymore. Blizzard's focus is clearly shifting to casual games (see HotS, HS, Overwatch), and another RTS would not be casual. Perhap they can draw from some of the concepts they've created in HotS and create a hybrid-like WC4.
On the other hand, I also don't think Blizzard would be willing to not have at least one truly competitive game. It's in their history to have that, and I think they'll want to hang on to it. They are all about the legacy. But then again, Hearthstone is pretty damn competitive, and HotS is shaping up rather well on that side also.
I don't think we'll get WC4 anymore. I mean I don't know. I'm really on the fence about it.
This isnt a hard opinion to have. WoW's WoD story has been utter shit.
On March 20 2015 08:00 Spaylz wrote: I consider WC3's story to be of better quality than what WoW has delivered lately. I don't think it's necessary to be a nostalgic elitist and claim WoW doesn't hold up against WC3 though. They are different story-telling medias.
It's important to understand that MMOs are down right awful for story-telling. They really are. You have to give the notion that the player is advancing in the story, yet the world has to stay consistent and has to stay the same for new players... It forces the developers to make compromises, and that isn't good for the story.
The early days of WoW were great about immersion though. I've never played WoW itself, but I have played on a certain private server which reproduces the normal gaming conditions of WoW (normal drops, no donating to get power, etc.). And while walking around in the world of TBC, I had to say it all felt pretty close to WC3. It was something to walk in the ravaged lands of Lordaeron, and see a Ziggurat as an actual unit of WC3 would see it. Go into the Ziggurat, etc. It was just something else.
Anyway... Yeah, I would say that up until Wrath of the Lich King, WoW's story was alright. Then, they started to go with more convoluted stuff, like would-be spaceships with the Naaru and things like that... Plus now, time travel or parallel universes with Warlords of Draenor. The franchise is starting to tire itself a bit. You can only turn so many good guys into villains, and you can only bring so many villains back to life or come up with some wonky reason as to why they're defeated but not quite dead.
On the other topic, up until recently I believed we would eventually see WC4. Now, I'm not so sure anymore. Blizzard's focus is clearly shifting to casual games (see HotS, HS, Overwatch), and another RTS would not be casual. Perhap they can draw from some of the concepts they've created in HotS and create a hybrid-like WC4.
On the other hand, I also don't think Blizzard would be willing to not have at least one truly competitive game. It's in their history to have that, and I think they'll want to hang on to it. They are all about the legacy. But then again, Hearthstone is pretty damn competitive, and HotS is shaping up rather well on that side also.
I don't think we'll get WC4 anymore. I mean I don't know. I'm really on the fence about it.
This isnt a hard opinion to have. WoW's WoD story has been utter shit.
well, I totally liked the decision to create a Panda continent, that really fit in the WC3 universe quite nicely ;>
Wc4 will come :o !!! theres many reasons for it! can someone explain me, why itd be bad that Wc4 and Sc2 are competitors? after buying Lotv noone will ever put another cent into Sc2, like I did not put a cent in Wc3 after Frozen THrone. So only way to make more money from RTS community is by making a new RTS. plus, the epicness of Wc3 made me insta buy Sc2. I mean, people are buying the new Fifa every year, so buying a new RTS every 5 years should be no problem.
I dunno, I'm skeptical about WC4 because it would probably cost a fuckton to make (but it would probably sell well, it's true). The other thing that makes me afraid is that Blizzard would probably try to overdo the competitive/eSports part of it should they make a WC4, like they did with SC2, HS and (maybe) HOTS.
On March 23 2015 05:37 OtherWorld wrote: I dunno, I'm skeptical about WC4 because it would probably cost a fuckton to make (but it would probably sell well, it's true). The other thing that makes me afraid is that Blizzard would probably try to overdo the competitive/eSports part of it should they make a WC4, like they did with SC2, HS and (maybe) HOTS.
I think they would do the total opposite. It seems to me that Blizzard have learned their lesson. They tried to design SC2 around competition (but also tried to cater to casual players for some reason) and more importantly, they did all they could to keep complete control over said competition.
It's been a while since I've paid attention to the SC2 scene, but the WCS were basically choking esports a couple of years ago. It was too much too often, and gave too little room for other tournaments. Anyone who wanted money was basically forced to enter the WCS, as the other tournaments were too scarce or didn't offer much, or both.
Now though, I think they've let go of their grip a little, and the SC2 scene is a bit more healthy. Could be wrong though.
But about Hearthstone and Heroes of the Storm... Blizzard is barely meddling with the competitive scene of either game. What do they have on HS? BlizzCon? Same goes for HotS, what do they have besides BlizzCon and their new tournament designed for college students?
If I recall, Blizzard even explicitly forbade all tournaments of any size on HotS. They didn't organise any themselves, and no one was allowed to offer money for a HotS tournament. I think they're taking more of a hands-off approach with their new games, and they're only hosting tournaments in the case of BlizzCon, which makes sense. That is what they did for WC3, and the scene was thriving there.
I don't know. I think that if they did do WC4, they'd try not to repeat the really bad mistakes they did with SC2. But they would totally want the game to be competitive, yeah. They just wouldn't need to lift a finger to make it happen, I'm rather certain it would be put together really fast.
@3point14, it would be a bad move to have both SC2 and WC4 up and running at roughly the same time, because the competitive scenes would clash. Also, people like new things. The new games always seem more shiny and are more likely to generate new players. I just think that having them both live would split the player base in two, which would be good for no one.
I don't know. I think that if they did do WC4, they'd try not to repeat the really bad mistakes they did with SC2. But they would totally want the game to be competitive, yeah. They just wouldn't need to lift a finger to make it happen, I'm rather certain it would be put together really fast
Whatever your opinion of WCS is, that's not the big reason why SC2 has problems. Other games outgrew SC2 because RTS is hard and not casual friendly, and usually have team aspects. There's a reason why Dota 1 overshadowed and lasted way longer than Warcraft III. Hearthstone is very easy to get into, and very entertaining to watch. RTS is a lot more subtle. So that's why it's successful esports-wise even though Blizzard hasn't done anything with it. . I don't think WCS is necessarily bad, what you're describing what happened in 2013, it did suck but at the same time you gotta realize the giant bubble that 2012 was with MLG IPL and NASL trying to top eachother and spending way too much money. They have loosened up a lot since 2013. I remember like 2013 WCS was on 5 days a week so it was impossible to schedule anything with that.
That being said, they seem to be absolutely going HAM on HOTS esports, well kinda, sorta, the fact that HOTS isnt yet released or like competitively sound, the large push to get it broadcast ed on ESPN, tells me they want to push that hard as hell.
Either way, WCS isn't the biggest hurdle, it's the genre and how fun it is to play/watch. Warcraft III was known to have more micro intensive than BW/SC2 is, if WC4 carries over those same design principles, that's going to turn off a lot of casuals.
On March 22 2015 10:06 Spaylz wrote: About the RTS bit, I just disagree. I believe they split some of their RTS team to work on HotS. I know Dustin Browder was reassigned to HotS. Clearly, Blizzard is big enough to multitask and have more than one team on the same genre, especially with Titan cancelled.
Nonetheness, it would make little sense to have two RTS games on top of HotS, that is true enough. I believe that is the main reason. WC4 would directly compete with SC2, so they'd be shooting themselves in the foot. Still... I'm having less and less faith in WC4 ever coming out. I just don't see it anymore. Not sure that I want to see it, given how greedy Blizzard has become.
If they were to begin focusing on WC4 immediately upon releasing LotV, it still wouldn't come out until something like 2018-2019 at the earliest. How would that compete with SC2, a non-freemium game? Pretty sure they will have tapped out the commercial potential at that point. But I agree that right now WC4 doesn't seem very likely, though I'm sure that there are a lot Warcraft fans (due to WoW) who will basically be into anything that ties into the overall lore and this might bring an additional boost on top of the RTS (starcraft) crowd.
EPT
. would create a lot of cool possibilities of gamingexperience and epicness
