On February 03 2020 17:10 M3t4PhYzX wrote: Bli$$ard is not Blizzard from the 90s/00s anymore anyways.. wasnt for a long time but for certain it is not the same now..
I mean.. are there even any people from the old Blizzard left? I don't think so..
What a fucking mess.. Such a damn shame, really.. How to destroy a game - a masterclass by Activision-Bli$$ard.
While I am not disagreeing about Acti-ard being a bad Company nowadays driven by renevue instead of by the strive for making good games wc3 is mainly being destroyed by its fans.
Its like any remake, of movies or games, its impossible to live up to the imaginations and standards of the hardcore fans but the future of the game and the genre is defined by the reaction of the customers. If Wc3 would at least make some splash there is the possibility most of these faults could be patched and improved, if the game dies and everyone hates it that will simply be the end.
The news going around now blocks new players from entering the rts genre and makes it less likely wc3 will get the Resources it needs to be improved and also less likely there will be a new rts made by Blizzard. This by extension also lowers the value of the starcraft 2 scene as well.
As I said, I don't disagree, its all shit but I would have prefered if it wouldn't stay shit...
Always the same god damned argument. Preventing new blood from entering RTS. I just wanted my game to work as it intended to given that I did not buy reforged nor cared for it, why am stuck in this cluster fuck?
If you are unable to keep promises, don't make them in the first place. WC3 survived on its own without the need for new players with its sustainable loyal fanbase. I'm not denying there was a decline, but game did indeed survived. Right now with reforged as a constant player of WC3, I'm unable to play the game because: - There is no ladder [current match making is a joke] - I lost contact to my friends who were in the classic friend list not in the BNET app - tons of bugs in the current release - downgrading of the classic graphics just like what happened with SCR SD graphics which were worse than the 1.16.1
If the game remains in this state, it will die for real in couple of months.
How the heck this is fanbase fault that they are destroying the game?
You are right, not saying anything against aguments like yours and the general disgust at the low quality of the release. What I am turning against is reactions like what is happening at metacritic, what is being talked about right now is what a bad game Wc3 Re is, not what a great game it ruined. What saddens me the most is the way warcraft 3 is being talked about right now, a fact that is indeed hurting warcraft 3 long term more than the faults you raise (in your list). I guess the forced game upgrade is an issue as serious as the reactions but besides that horrible decision I still Think the way the outrage is being done does a lot of damage,
To answer your argument about whether metacritic review bombing is bad for the game itself or not. I send you this:
Basically, it is our only way to make sure our voice is heard. If that did not happen and the Australian refund dude, we would not have gotten the automatic refund process for reforged that we have currently.
This is much bigger discussion than just wc3 but I really disagree with what that warhammer guy is arguing here.
Review bombing is good because we can coerce companies to do what we want them to do through posting off-topic reviews of products and therefore making people not buy them?
While I do agree to some of the Points and how the system of today lacks a good way for us to make our voices Heard this guy is simplifying a very complicated topic. Stating that "wrongful" Review bombing (subjectively defined by him) is a rare occurance, based on what? His opinion and no facts.
He says that a few thousand people are enough to create a shitstorm that cannot be stopped. That any Group numbering a few thousand have the Power to wrongfully twist reviews and their scores for any reason is morally good is utter shait. There has been a lot of instances of Review bombing being used maliciously and wrongfully.
Edit: The purpose of Reviews is to Review the game, many times Review bombs are justified because the negative reviews are being left due to a reason that actually has something to do with the Product. When the above is not true the practise is not Always morally good.
As in the situation with wc3 I agree with the Review bomb but this video also said nothing about if these things are actually good for a game long term. It depends, I think its good the problems are out in the open and well known, might be for the best as you say but it might also be for the worst. My advice is that anyone that claim they know an "absolute truth" be wary of them.
On February 03 2020 17:10 M3t4PhYzX wrote: Bli$$ard is not Blizzard from the 90s/00s anymore anyways.. wasnt for a long time but for certain it is not the same now..
I mean.. are there even any people from the old Blizzard left? I don't think so..
What a fucking mess.. Such a damn shame, really.. How to destroy a game - a masterclass by Activision-Bli$$ard.
While I am not disagreeing about Acti-ard being a bad Company nowadays driven by renevue instead of by the strive for making good games wc3 is mainly being destroyed by its fans.
Its like any remake, of movies or games, its impossible to live up to the imaginations and standards of the hardcore fans but the future of the game and the genre is defined by the reaction of the customers. If Wc3 would at least make some splash there is the possibility most of these faults could be patched and improved, if the game dies and everyone hates it that will simply be the end.
The news going around now blocks new players from entering the rts genre and makes it less likely wc3 will get the Resources it needs to be improved and also less likely there will be a new rts made by Blizzard. This by extension also lowers the value of the starcraft 2 scene as well.
As I said, I don't disagree, its all shit but I would have prefered if it wouldn't stay shit...
Always the same god damned argument. Preventing new blood from entering RTS. I just wanted my game to work as it intended to given that I did not buy reforged nor cared for it, why am stuck in this cluster fuck?
If you are unable to keep promises, don't make them in the first place. WC3 survived on its own without the need for new players with its sustainable loyal fanbase. I'm not denying there was a decline, but game did indeed survived. Right now with reforged as a constant player of WC3, I'm unable to play the game because: - There is no ladder [current match making is a joke] - I lost contact to my friends who were in the classic friend list not in the BNET app - tons of bugs in the current release - downgrading of the classic graphics just like what happened with SCR SD graphics which were worse than the 1.16.1
If the game remains in this state, it will die for real in couple of months.
How the heck this is fanbase fault that they are destroying the game?
You are right, not saying anything against aguments like yours and the general disgust at the low quality of the release. What I am turning against is reactions like what is happening at metacritic, what is being talked about right now is what a bad game Wc3 Re is, not what a great game it ruined. What saddens me the most is the way warcraft 3 is being talked about right now, a fact that is indeed hurting warcraft 3 long term more than the faults you raise (in your list). I guess the forced game upgrade is an issue as serious as the reactions but besides that horrible decision I still Think the way the outrage is being done does a lot of damage,
I don’t personally like review bombing, or much of YouTube content associated.
Not because Blizz don’t deserve a kicking over it but because so much of it isn’t even about the game itself, but various other bugbears with Blizzard or whatever. A cottage review/commentary industry that gets views with outrage, stoking the outrage further, some not even having played the game.
The custom game copyright thing for example. I’m not sure how big a deal that really is. People tend to make such games for fun or as passion projects, but I’m not 100% sure how all that works in practice yet.
So yeah I’m not a fan of it, on the other hand what is there else to do really?
If they were this behind on features, why force the update on those who have the original Warcraft 3? At the very least make that optional.
- Client is too unstable and demanding to run maps with many objects - Mentioning of simple Names that are not Blizzard IP leads to auto-ban for Bnet2.0 (Dragonball Z Map), images and models even more so. - Mentioning of banned words will ban the map.
WC3 was a game that encouraged people to be creative, while challenging their ability to survive without a "Triggerwarnding" or a safe-Space. Many childish jokes were made like the german "Randgruppen TD".
But Blizzard now has to moderate even the names of the Custom games, because of EU Law, and so the Nanny is always watching...
On February 03 2020 21:43 Wombat_NI wrote: The custom game copyright thing for example. I’m not sure how big a deal that really is. People tend to make such games for fun or as passion projects, but I’m not 100% sure how all that works in practice yet.
Firstly, and least: You can no longer make any games based off of other IPs. Like DBZ or Lord of the rings. This already removes 50% of current custom games on War3. But ok, that's a minor annoyance compared to the next point.
Secondly: You no longer have any ownership of the custom maps you make, including any custom made assets or documentation that went into making it. Ie: If you make a word document saying "I want to make this mod", and then subsequently release said mod, Blizzard has all rights to that document. What this effectively means is that you can no longer make the same custom map across different games, like Battle Chess is currently for all games ever, and you can no longer use the concept, art, layout, documentations, or the very idea of the map, on any other platform or standalone project. Aka Blizzard wants to stop what Icefrog did with Dota 2 (who, btw, approached Blizzard first, before being refused and moving over to Valve. So Blizzard doesn't really want the mods for themselves, they just don't want to see other companies use them).
So tl;dr: This is a huge deal. And completely and utterly unacceptable. I wouldn't even make a custom map under these rules let alone a complete mod with lots of blood, sweat and tears in it.
Serious question about the "Blizzard owns all custom maps" thing. What happens if I make a map completely ripping someone else's copyright, or better yet, MY copyright, and then I sue Blizzard for copyright infringement, because what I made in WC3 is fully and non-negotiably owned by them?
On February 03 2020 21:43 Wombat_NI wrote: The custom game copyright thing for example. I’m not sure how big a deal that really is. People tend to make such games for fun or as passion projects, but I’m not 100% sure how all that works in practice yet.
Firstly, and least: You can no longer make any games based off of other IPs. Like DBZ or Lord of the rings. This already removes 50% of current custom games on War3. But ok, that's a minor annoyance compared to the next point.
Secondly: You no longer have any ownership of the custom maps you make, including any custom made assets or documentation that went into making it. Ie: If you make a word document saying "I want to make this mod", and then subsequently release said mod, Blizzard has all rights to that document. What this effectively means is that you can no longer make the same custom map across different games, like Battle Chess is currently for all games ever, and you can no longer use the concept, art, layout, documentations, or the very idea of the map, on any other platform or standalone project. Aka Blizzard wants to stop what Icefrog did with Dota 2 (who, btw, approached Blizzard first, before being refused and moving over to Valve. So Blizzard doesn't really want the mods for themselves, they just don't want to see other companies use them).
So tl;dr: This is a huge deal. And completely and utterly unacceptable. I wouldn't even make a custom map under these rules let alone a complete mod with lots of blood, sweat and tears in it.
Wow I didn't get that its this all-encompassing.The way I see the wc3 editor is pretty much as a game Engine, you go in and create stuff just that Everything you create now belongs to Blizzard. Its like if Epic would own Everything ever made in the unreal engine… Obviously the editor is a bit different but still, it sounds crazy
On February 03 2020 23:38 abuse wrote: Serious question about the "Blizzard owns all custom maps" thing. What happens if I make a map completely ripping someone else's copyright, or better yet, MY copyright, and then I sue Blizzard for copyright infringement, because what I made in WC3 is fully and non-negotiably owned by them?
You also have agreed via EULA that you don't use anyone's IP to create a custom map/game. If you are the owner of some IP, and you use it in a map, you have simply handed it over to blizzard, free of charge, with no rights left to you (Payment or even credit)
Worse, if you, knowing oder unknowingly use some 3rd Party IP for a custom map, and Blizzard gets trouble for using it, you may become responsible for all the costs that are inflicted by your "illegal" claim of 3rd. party IP.
It is on YOU to check if anyone claims rights to a game mode, a character, a name, a place - anything. And if you fail to do so, well tough luck, you just checkboxed an EULA making you 100% legaly responsible.
In Germany I would not create a custom map. Some lawyers here are "scammers in law" who would exercise their clients right to give you an "abmahnung" written warning with costs up to hundreds of euros, if they find anything in your map that they claim is their IP. You pay or you go to court.
Whether it was BW on ICCUP or Fish, or Warcraft 3 on official BNET 1.0 or W3ARENA, back in 2016, we were satisfied with what we got and enjoying it... What the fuck happened to make us all suffer this...
On February 03 2020 21:43 Wombat_NI wrote: The custom game copyright thing for example. I’m not sure how big a deal that really is. People tend to make such games for fun or as passion projects, but I’m not 100% sure how all that works in practice yet.
Firstly, and least: You can no longer make any games based off of other IPs. Like DBZ or Lord of the rings. This already removes 50% of current custom games on War3. But ok, that's a minor annoyance compared to the next point.
Secondly: You no longer have any ownership of the custom maps you make, including any custom made assets or documentation that went into making it. Ie: If you make a word document saying "I want to make this mod", and then subsequently release said mod, Blizzard has all rights to that document. What this effectively means is that you can no longer make the same custom map across different games, like Battle Chess is currently for all games ever, and you can no longer use the concept, art, layout, documentations, or the very idea of the map, on any other platform or standalone project. Aka Blizzard wants to stop what Icefrog did with Dota 2 (who, btw, approached Blizzard first, before being refused and moving over to Valve. So Blizzard doesn't really want the mods for themselves, they just don't want to see other companies use them).
So tl;dr: This is a huge deal. And completely and utterly unacceptable. I wouldn't even make a custom map under these rules let alone a complete mod with lots of blood, sweat and tears in it.
I suppose in theory based on the license agreement Blizzard and what they say Blizzard can pull custom games like DBZ or whatever. Are they actually implementing that currently?
Not doubting what you’re saying at all, the potential is certainly there in the wording just curious if they’re actually enforcing it.
The latter part sounds a fucking mess, how do you even enforce such a policy legally? Just that ‘you agreed to the EULA’ and tough luck?
I don’t even think licensing commercial game engines have nearly as strict stipulations about the ideas around a project, otherwise we wouldn’t see projects changing engines mid-development.
I wanted to test some vague ideas for a passion project pseudo-RTS and it would be easier to use something like a WC3 to at least make a vague prototype. I’d probably just skip that stage with this draconian crap and build from scratch. Which would be a pain for me technically but would be a good learning experience.
Wouldn't any [DOTA] Map fall under the same "using someone's IP" category, effectively banning WC3R and WC3Classic players from playing the original Dota ?
On February 03 2020 21:43 Wombat_NI wrote: The custom game copyright thing for example. I’m not sure how big a deal that really is. People tend to make such games for fun or as passion projects, but I’m not 100% sure how all that works in practice yet.
Firstly, and least: You can no longer make any games based off of other IPs. Like DBZ or Lord of the rings. This already removes 50% of current custom games on War3. But ok, that's a minor annoyance compared to the next point.
Secondly: You no longer have any ownership of the custom maps you make, including any custom made assets or documentation that went into making it. Ie: If you make a word document saying "I want to make this mod", and then subsequently release said mod, Blizzard has all rights to that document. What this effectively means is that you can no longer make the same custom map across different games, like Battle Chess is currently for all games ever, and you can no longer use the concept, art, layout, documentations, or the very idea of the map, on any other platform or standalone project. Aka Blizzard wants to stop what Icefrog did with Dota 2 (who, btw, approached Blizzard first, before being refused and moving over to Valve. So Blizzard doesn't really want the mods for themselves, they just don't want to see other companies use them).
So tl;dr: This is a huge deal. And completely and utterly unacceptable. I wouldn't even make a custom map under these rules let alone a complete mod with lots of blood, sweat and tears in it.
I suppose in theory based on the license agreement Blizzard and what they say Blizzard can pull custom games like DBZ or whatever. Are they actually implementing that currently?
Not doubting what you’re saying at all, the potential is certainly there in the wording just curious if they’re actually enforcing it.
The latter part sounds a fucking mess, how do you even enforce such a policy legally? Just that ‘you agreed to the EULA’ and tough luck?
I don’t even think licensing commercial game engines have nearly as strict stipulations about the ideas around a project, otherwise we wouldn’t see projects changing engines mid-development.
I wanted to test some vague ideas for a passion project pseudo-RTS and it would be easier to use something like a WC3 to at least make a vague prototype. I’d probably just skip that stage with this draconian crap and build from scratch. Which would be a pain for me technically but would be a good learning experience.
No idea about enforcement. Whether it's enforceable by law I suspect is going to be largely up to whatever court they make their claim in.
Commercial game engines have nothing remotely like this (at least not Unity or Unreal Engine, which are the two I've worked on), because their very existence depends on it. Imagine if Unity pulled this stunt? It would go bankrupt overnight as literally every company dumps it. Of course, there's a difference in how they earn their money, in that game engines takes % of sales (and/or a monthly sum to use it), but Blizzard also earns money from every copy of the game sold, so it's in their interest that people make as many mods as possible. The thought process behind whoever wrote this is completely incoherent.
On February 04 2020 00:42 KT_Elwood wrote: Wouldn't any [DOTA] Map fall under the same "using someone's IP" category, effectively banning WC3R and WC3Classic players from playing the original Dota ?
Good question. I think you're right. That ip currently belongs to Valve. Last I checked, Icefrog was even still updating the old Dota 1 map on WC3 for free. So Blizzard really are just shooting themselves in the foot with this.
It’s kind of mind boggling that they could removed the best key features (for me at least) like team ladder matchmaking, clans and tournaments. How was this achievable in 2002 nearly flawlessly and now it’s been straight up removed 18 years later. Doesn’t make any sense, it’s beyond incompetent
The joinbug bug (lol) was fixed, it now stops searching after a few seconds.
Opponents and allies that I get seem a bit better. I meet less complete beginners, people are now more likely to have the basics, but it's still full of below average players. I'll have to see if it gets better. Their new MMR probably doesn't rise fast enough.
On February 03 2020 23:38 abuse wrote: Serious question about the "Blizzard owns all custom maps" thing. What happens if I make a map completely ripping someone else's copyright, or better yet, MY copyright, and then I sue Blizzard for copyright infringement, because what I made in WC3 is fully and non-negotiably owned by them?
You also have agreed via EULA that you don't use anyone's IP to create a custom map/game. If you are the owner of some IP, and you use it in a map, you have simply handed it over to blizzard, free of charge, with no rights left to you (Payment or even credit)
Worse, if you, knowing oder unknowingly use some 3rd Party IP for a custom map, and Blizzard gets trouble for using it, you may become responsible for all the costs that are inflicted by your "illegal" claim of 3rd. party IP.
It is on YOU to check if anyone claims rights to a game mode, a character, a name, a place - anything. And if you fail to do so, well tough luck, you just checkboxed an EULA making you 100% legaly responsible.
In Germany I would not create a custom map. Some lawyers here are "scammers in law" who would exercise their clients right to give you an "abmahnung" written warning with costs up to hundreds of euros, if they find anything in your map that they claim is their IP. You pay or you go to court.
but how can I be legally responsible for something that I have given away all rights to? Isn't it so that if I give away all my rights then it literally means that I have no right to whatever happens with after the map is completed? Even if I broke blizzard's rules when making the map, by my final 'agree' that they have implemented now, I should give up all responsibilities, rights (including moral - it's literally written in the statement they made) for the map since I do not own it anymore. How can blizzard go after me for something that I do not own and 100% of the rights of the infringed map is on blizzard? It sounds broken because even if it works your way, and I make a good map, and blizzard owns it, if they add copyrighted things to it afterwards, am I still responsible because technically I made the map?
On top of all mentioned issues with Reforged, Russian WC3 community is specifically outraged because of new voices instead of old ones for all characters. Did they change voices in other languages? I saw russian/english campaign streams, it felt like they kept English voices I totally recognized old Sylvanas for instance.
On February 04 2020 03:36 Devangel wrote: On top of all mentioned issues with Reforged, Russian WC3 community is specifically outraged because of new voices instead of old ones for all characters. Did they change voices in other languages? I saw russian/english campaign streams, it felt like they kept English voices I totally recognized old Sylvanas for instance.
They changed some voices for fuck knows what reason. Hoping they allow people to turn off this shit. I can't stand it.
On February 04 2020 03:36 Devangel wrote: On top of all mentioned issues with Reforged, Russian WC3 community is specifically outraged because of new voices instead of old ones for all characters. Did they change voices in other languages? I saw russian/english campaign streams, it felt like they kept English voices I totally recognized old Sylvanas for instance.
Yes, they changed all voices in the german version too. Some of the old voice acting was really impressive, and imho some of the new voices sound quite different (Illidan, Kael, Maiev, Cairne imho). While of course I'm used to the old ones after playing the original campaigns several times, the new versions overall appear to be less fitting of their characters.
They also apparently translated everything once again, I wonder why, with all the other stuff that has been cut, they decided they had to this? Maybe they did it rather early in the process? Anyway, some of the new voice lines come with a rather different tone compared to the original game. For example, in the final level of the TFT nightelf campaign, Furion now says he "believes" Illidan where iirc in the original game, he said he "trusts" him.
EPT
