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Spaylz
Japan1743 Posts
I've never stopped loving the game play of WC3, even when I get stomped (ain't that right hindsight!). I think it is best for everyone to ladder on w3arena (it will bring them more people, so more power to them) and have private games on GArena. It seems the simplest and best solution. | ||
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Capresis
United States518 Posts
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amazingxkcd
GRAND OLD AMERICA16375 Posts
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amazingxkcd
GRAND OLD AMERICA16375 Posts
On October 22 2013 10:19 amazingxkcd wrote: Ill be on w3arena now, with id LoveTT. I have no idea what Im doing rofl op teamliquid | ||
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ReignSupreme.
Australia4123 Posts
On October 22 2013 10:06 Capricis wrote: So are you thinking about a w3arena guild? That doesn't need ten people to start, does it? Also can you add me to the OP? Capricis on w3arena and Psycho_Gemni on Garena. I searched everyone's names in the OP on Garena and added all I found, which was most everyone. You still need 10 people to accept during the 30 second time limit, I believe. | ||
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3point14
Germany890 Posts
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Tchado
Jordan1831 Posts
"What can Sc2 learn from Wc3 ? and what can current Wc3 players learn from Sc2 ? " This is a very broad question , and it has tons of possible answers from many angels (strategy , balance , design , you as a player...etc ) so lets begin :D From my point of view , ever since I started playing Sc2 I noticed how it affected my Wc3 play ; for example in sc2 I play terran and I tend to go upgrade heavy , in Sc2 the advantage of having an upgrade lead is massive (most of the time) , all of sudden when I play Wc3 I started to realize I ported this with me , in 1v1s I tend to get at least 1 attack upgrade before T2 , and I will squeeze in more upgrades as the game moves forward depending on the situation , but I still go for upgrades if I see that my units can stand their own in a fight , I noticed this affected my Human vs Orc , having +2 defense on your spell breakers can be game breaking , or having +2 attack on your rifles in Human vs Nightelf , I was even called out as a hacker a few times because of it XD....hell sometimes when I get away with a fast expansion in team games, I would throw 2 blacksmiths , pump the upgrades and stick to T1 or T2 instead of going for fast T3 with no upgrades , the advantages are just too massive to ignore. From another point of view , I noticed how blizzard tends to balance these days around having more attack options and an action packed meta game instead of bullshit macro stalemates , now I know this will never happen , but can you imagine if the upkeep system was in sc2 ? Many people tried to come up with a reason why Wc3 is the action packed master piece of a game it is , some say it is the focus on micro but I have to say it is because of upkeep , once you hit 50 food in Wc3 , YOU GOTTA DO SOMETHING , you need to hit a timing , harass , fight , secure an expo....do something ffs ! breaking upkeep is also a gamble that isn't taken lightly , all these factors compel players to be more aggressive....while I believe this won't work in Sc2 , but it does make you wonder (btw I am thinking of making a custom map to try this theory out). These are some of my thoughts , I will share more as the discussion grows  | ||
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fleeze
Germany895 Posts
On October 23 2013 19:15 Tchado wrote: I want to start a serious discussion , I think this topic will be interesting , please share your ideas because I am very interested in them , on a personal level or from a theory-craft level. "What can Sc2 learn from Wc3 ? and what can current Wc3 players learn from Sc2 ? " This is a very broad question , and it has tons of possible answers from many angels (strategy , balance , design , you as a player...etc ) so lets begin :D From my point of view , ever since I started playing Sc2 I noticed how it affected my Wc3 play ; for example in sc2 I play terran and I tend to go upgrade heavy , in Sc2 the advantage of having an upgrade lead is massive (most of the time) , all of sudden when I play Wc3 I started to realize I ported this with me , in 1v1s I tend to get at least 1 attack upgrade before T2 , and I will squeeze in more upgrades as the game moves forward depending on the situation , but I still go for upgrades if I see that my units can stand their own in a fight , I noticed this affected my Human vs Orc , having +2 defense on your spell breakers can be game breaking , or having +2 attack on your rifles in Human vs Nightelf , I was even called out as a hacker a few times because of it XD....hell sometimes when I get away with a fast expansion in team games, I would throw 2 blacksmiths , pump the upgrades and stick to T1 or T2 instead of going for fast T3 with no upgrades , the advantages are just too massive to ignore. From another point of view , I noticed how blizzard tends to balance these days around having more attack options and an action packed meta game instead of bullshit macro stalemates , now I know this will never happen , but can you imagine if the upkeep system was in sc2 ? Many people tried to come up with a reason why Wc3 is the action packed master piece of a game it is , some say it is the focus on micro but I have to say it is because of upkeep , once you hit 50 food in Wc3 , YOU GOTTA DO SOMETHING , you need to hit a timing , harass , fight , secure an expo....do something ffs ! breaking upkeep is also a gamble that isn't taken lightly , all these factors compel players to be more aggressive....while I believe this won't work in Sc2 , but it does make you wonder (btw I am thinking of making a custom map to try this theory out). These are some of my thoughts , I will share more as the discussion grows well, both your points make no sense to compare IMHO. Upgrades in WC3 are very different from upgrades in SC2. In SC2 you get fixed values (+1, +2) whereas in WC3 you get percentage based upgrades, also armor works VERY different because of this (see Dota armor system). f.e. 1 point in armor reduces damageby 5.7%. which is useless against t1. Therefore it's rarely worth upgrading units before going t2. also regarding the upkeep system and the more action packed game. you are wrong here. the upkeep was one of the most controverse things in WC3 strategy wise. many pros wanted it to disappear to encourage macro. however that doesn' have anything to do with WC3 being more action with fights more often and longer. this is the case because 1) units have MUCH higher HP compared to their damage. 2) there are heroes which benefit from fighting (lvl) 3) there are neutral creeps to fight over to gain an advantage through denying your opponent the exp/gold or just backstab him. | ||
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Tchado
Jordan1831 Posts
On October 23 2013 20:49 fleeze wrote: well, both your points make no sense to compare IMHO. Upgrades in WC3 are very different from upgrades in SC2. In SC2 you get fixed values (+1, +2) whereas in WC3 you get percentage based upgrades, also armor works VERY different because of this (see Dota armor system). f.e. 1 point in armor reduces damageby 5.7%. which is useless against t1. Therefore it's rarely worth upgrading units before going t2. also regarding the upkeep system and the more action packed game. you are wrong here. the upkeep was one of the most controverse things in WC3 strategy wise. many pros wanted it to disappear to encourage macro. however that doesn' have anything to do with WC3 being more action with fights more often and longer. this is the case because 1) units have MUCH higher HP compared to their damage. 2) there are heroes which benefit from fighting (lvl) 3) there are neutral creeps to fight over to gain an advantage through denying your opponent the exp/gold or just backstab him. Thanks for the knowledge :D , keep the discussion rolling !!!! I knew my views are kinda bullshit(ish) but they are just what I see based on my games , everyone plays differently so I am very excited to read such things | ||
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3point14
Germany890 Posts
On October 23 2013 20:49 fleeze wrote: well, both your points make no sense to compare IMHO. Upgrades in WC3 are very different from upgrades in SC2. In SC2 you get fixed values (+1, +2) whereas in WC3 you get percentage based upgrades, also armor works VERY different because of this (see Dota armor system). f.e. 1 point in armor reduces damageby 5.7%. which is useless against t1. Therefore it's rarely worth upgrading units before going t2. also regarding the upkeep system and the more action packed game. you are wrong here. the upkeep was one of the most controverse things in WC3 strategy wise. many pros wanted it to disappear to encourage macro. however that doesn' have anything to do with WC3 being more action with fights more often and longer. this is the case because 1) units have MUCH higher HP compared to their damage. 2) there are heroes which benefit from fighting (lvl) 3) there are neutral creeps to fight over to gain an advantage through denying your opponent the exp/gold or just backstab him. youre right about armor upgrades, but attack upgrades rise by percentage (DT has 45 basic, +3 has 60). i dont play Sc2 but why would someone upgrad marines armor against for example tanks. the damage gets reduced from 35 to 34? | ||
GTR
51706 Posts
http://www.twitch.tv/moongladeau | ||
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Tchado
Jordan1831 Posts
I do have a question for you , do you think encouraging macro in Wc3 would make it a better game ? personally the reason that macro is even more non-existant than wc3 is why I love games like Dawn of War 2 and Company of heroes 2 | ||
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Spaylz
Japan1743 Posts
I've added your names to the OP Capricis, amazingxkcd and ReignSupreme. Regarding your discussion Tchado, there are many reasons why SC2 isn't as action packed as WC3. For one, SC2's macro mechanics are far more advanced and your starting base has a lot more resources. The maps are designed differently, the population limit is higher and it is much, much easier to repop when you lose all of your army. This was something that I found very unsettling when I first played SC2, the fact that you can lose the game after you won a big fight if you rush in, simply because your opponent repopped. In WC3 there is no such thing, if you wipe out your opponent's army, the game is over in 90% of cases. Mostly, it is the nature of the units themselves and the heroes which make for all the action. The maps are generally smaller, there are less mines and resources to be taken and creeps can only get you so much experience, thus forcing you to interact with the player rather sooner than later. Not to mention certain heroes are basically designed for harassing (hello BM, DH and DK) and the fact that you get experience from each enemy unit you kill. The advantage you get from killing a unit in WC3 is much greater than in SC2 for three reasons: a player has less units in WC3 than he does in SC2, he loses the gold he invested in that unit AND he gives you experience. Experience quickly becomes a big deal in games and it is one of the big factors that promote player interaction in WC3 games. I disagree with your point regarding the upgrades. While they can be nice if you fast expand and go fast T3, they hardly matter in other cases. An attack upgrade on Riflemen might be good, a defense upgrade on Bears perhaps, but nothing too crazy. Whenever you research an upgrade, you're sacrificing a unit and you're making your army smaller. Army composition and micro management matter much more than in SC2, simply because of the nature of the units. In SC2 you hardly have time to actually micro anything anyway, it's all about positioning and then having a 30 seconds fight. Upkeep always was a hot topic amongst pros. If you watch Grubby's videos you'll see that he discusses it and argues that it should be removed. I don't really have an opinion about it myself, I'm not good enough to really grasp the whole thing. Upkeep adds some strategy to the game, what with ecoing at 50 and 70 and what not, but it probably has more drawbacks than anything else. It is certainly questionable to have a mechanic that punishes high population armies in a game where you don't have very large armies to begin with. | ||
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DaCruise
Denmark2457 Posts
On October 23 2013 22:47 Tchado wrote: @fleeze I do have a question for you , do you think encouraging macro in Wc3 would make it a better game ? personally the reason that macro is even more non-existant than wc3 is why I love games like Dawn of War 2 and Company of heroes 2 WC3 doesnt work like that. The macro required in WC3 is limited and thats just how it is. If it was more complex and/or required more focus, the small skirmishes would be less interesting and wouldnt happen as often so no, more macro wouldnt make WC3 better but worse imo. The strenght of WC3 comes from the heroes and their abilities so thats what should be the focus of the game. | ||
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DaCruise
Denmark2457 Posts
If I cant find a game within a few minutes I just search custom games for "playffa". There is a bot hosting ffa games and its actually very popular. Best part about my recent return to WC3 is that I dont believe I´ve encountered any hackers yet and I´ve played around 15 games in total. Last time I played WC3 was prior to the SC2 launch back in 2009/2010 and I actually had to install a hack that prevented me from gettting drop-hacked. Seriously retarded that was. | ||
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fleeze
Germany895 Posts
On October 23 2013 22:55 DaCruise wrote: WC3 doesnt work like that. The macro required in WC3 is limited and thats just how it is. If it was more complex and/or required more focus, the small skirmishes would be less interesting and wouldnt happen as often so no, more macro wouldnt make WC3 better but worse imo. The strenght of WC3 comes from the heroes and their abilities so thats what should be the focus of the game. macro wasn't exactly the right word here i guess. the "macro" as in worker management is trivial in WC3 (5 workers on gold for each base asap is pretty much fixed). the thing is: you get punished in WC3 for building more units over the upkeep caps. it's a comeback mechanic that was not really liked by the players (blizzard raised it in TFT from 40 to 50 for a reason) and IMHO it wasn't necessary because it has a big influence on strategies. but keep in mind the supply cap is already low at 100 in WC3 with each hero taking 5 supply and you rarely see players over 80 supply anyway because it's too "expensive". so i don't think more "macro" in WC3, as in more units to fight with, would be that bad. | ||
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3point14
Germany890 Posts
FFA is interesting (with 3heroes getting lvl 6) but it also has drawbacks like 2hours gamelength. as I know from my experience wih the MAFIA game (also played here on TL) i suck at convincing people and hiding my evil plans, both of which is important in FFAs Dacruise, whats your ID on what servers? my view of upkeep is that the idea is good, but should be weaker, like 10/9/8 gold btw: thanks for notifying when someone (especially exWc3progamers) streams Wc3! I usually miss it if noone tells me, but its so much fun to watch Grubby, Tod and others play Wc3! | ||
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DaCruise
Denmark2457 Posts
On October 23 2013 23:22 3point14 wrote: hope to be able to play with you Dacruise. Ill be playing at around 11pm cest (Newyork time 5pm) and im chilling in azeroth channel "teamliquid" all day as well as im online on Garena. FFA is interesting (with 3heroes getting lvl 6) but it also has drawbacks like 2hours gamelength. as I know from my experience wih the MAFIA game (also played here on TL) i suck at convincing people and hiding my evil plans, both of which is important in FFAs Dacruise, whats your ID on what servers? my view of upkeep is that the idea is good, but should be weaker, like 10/9/8 gold btw: thanks for notifying when someone (especially exWc3progamers) streams Wc3! I usually miss it if noone tells me, but its so much fun to watch Grubby, Tod and others play Wc3! Well, so far I only have an account on Northrend. If the lag aint too bad I could make 1 on Azeroth as well. But I´m only interested in ffa. 1on1 is just not my style (as in I suck). Btw none of my ffa games has lasted longer than 35 mins. A game only reaches 1h+ when someone is mass towering or refuse to leave and just spam buildings in every corner and you have to hunt them down.. | ||
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3point14
Germany890 Posts
there is a big ffa scene of really good players at http://ffamasters.net/ where games usually take 2 hours cause everyone banks 20k gold. dont have much experience with ffas myself but will try it out | ||
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Spaylz
Japan1743 Posts
Lately when I have free time I usually play Hearthstone, as it is brand new, pretty cool, relaxing and not very time consuming. WC3 will always be the game I come back to though, I simply love it! Everyone add their in game names, and everyone should also install GArena. Last time we met on the USA room of WC3 TFT by default, so people should probably go there to meet up as I don't see why it couldn't be our meeting place on GArena. WC3 Resurrection! | ||
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