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i think part of the problem is player/developers have different ideas of what "speed" means, or when complaints like people have about SC2 being "too fast", people misinterpret them.
The combat speed of SC2 is pretty fast, and that's a GOOD thing. When people say the game is "too fast", most of the time their not talking about the actual combat speed, or anything micro related. The "too fast" complaints are directly focused at the macro speed & speed of economic growth. But Blizzard completely misinterprets that, and their responses in the weekly updates instead talk about the "gameplay" itself being too fast.
I 100% agree. I think in general people are just really bad at specifying what their actual (underlying) issues there. Often times it almost seems that Blizzard intentionally misinterprets what some of the feedback actually means when they are given responses in order to make it fit their vision of the game.
For instance when Koreans say Sc2 is too hard I would almost bet that it's not macro they are talking about but either the amount of different abilities you need to use and the amount of time you have to micro before your army died (the penalty for a small mistake).
Blizzad on the other hand used that argument to test making macro easier (and btw I don't think difficult macro makes for an interesting skillcap so I didn't mind that, but Blizzard's "interpretation" just seems off so many times).
@ Fast
Fast can indeed mean a ton of different things. When people talk about too fast in Sc2, they usually make proposals related to nerfing damage values (see discussed thread today).
But I think the underlying issue is usually how severe the penalty is. It's not that a few misclicks can mean you lose an army, because think about how Dota works and how succesful it is. You make a small error --> Your hero dies --> But it's not the end of the world becuase you can get it back. Other MOBA's (though not as extreme as Dota) works similarly.
And that's what I would want the RTS-genre to learn from MOBA. Make it "acceptable" to lose half an army or a few battles. Sure you should get behind, but 2-3 mistakes should not mean the end of the game.
With the MOBA-foundation, I bet that alot more "casual" players would feel that the Sc2-speed/pace (when it comes to damage/MS) is absolutely fine.
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nice catch. how long do your guys' games usually go? i haven't created a lobby or played a pvp due to timing, but my bot + human teammate matches usually went to shy of 30m.
it seems long, but somewhat unavoidable because of the strength of structures, aoe, and the rate of resources.
i'm sure i'm doing lots of stuff pretty wrong to contribute to all of that, on top of picking a bad combo of units.
anyway, i could totally see a game ending in 15m if played well.
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On September 03 2016 01:53 Hider wrote:
Btw, in Sc2 when I talk about the "proper fast movement speed" in that game I would say its within the 2.7-3.2 (*1.4) range. Movement speed below that are usually quite boring as well (slowhydras/roaches, immortals, colossus, unstimmed bio).
and there are lots of SC2 players complaining the pace of combat is too fast. so striking a balance between fast and fluid and a somewhat forgiving pace of combat is not an easy task.
i think Artillery's biggest mistake is in attempting to appeal to western multiplayer-RTS fans. western multiplayer-RTS fans don't spend money.
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And you could see the issue with "blocking" units right there if someone is watching Grubby's stream. He has 4 units! 4 UNITS! and the injured unit got blocked while trying to micro it away.
4 UNITS!
and there are lots of SC2 players complaining the pace of combat is too fast. so striking a balance between fast and fluid and a somewhat forgiving pace of combat is not an easy task.
Yet I wonder why MOBA-players don't complain about "pace" - except when a hero literally can one-shot another hero w/ limited counterplay. The only obvious answer is that the Sc2-players are mainly complaining because the importance of one battle is too high.
So I don't agree that it's difficult to strike a balance. You look at damage and and movement speed only in relation to what creates the best micro interactions, and seperately from that you have a MOBA-inspired foundation when it comes to defenders advantage.
Btw 4 UNITS!!!
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I have noticed that about the units. That its not that the pathing is bad, but that I would have to micro other units out of the way of the unit I am trying to control. They just get drunk and refuse to listen to commands.
But if you play Dota, you are used to the tiny clicks method to juke is trees. But that doesn't work if you have to control a bunch of separate units.
Edit: In dota, there are plenty of ways to get blown up in one go. People call it getting deleted. Its not a big deal because you expect it.
In this game, my main problem is the smaller units get deleted to easily compared to the amount of effort I would need to save them.
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On September 03 2016 03:54 JimmyJRaynor wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2016 01:53 Hider wrote:
Btw, in Sc2 when I talk about the "proper fast movement speed" in that game I would say its within the 2.7-3.2 (*1.4) range. Movement speed below that are usually quite boring as well (slowhydras/roaches, immortals, colossus, unstimmed bio). and there are lots of SC2 players complaining the pace of combat is too fast. so striking a balance between fast and fluid and a somewhat forgiving pace of combat is not an easy task.
as someone who played it pretty avidly with lots of unit comps in high and low latency also, i think it's all pretty good the way it is.
only thing i would change is speedlings (or units closer to that speed) and pathing to have more linear collision including air units, if that makes any sense at all.
shit moves in a ball cluster and positioning is just made easier or indirectly harder because that is the bread and butter and it is good enough.
but as we all know, proper positioning, timing and all that jazz makes or breaks an engagement. it's not that it doesn't matter, it's that it's not as obvious to newer player, and harder even still against fast compositions like zerglings that surround instantly on creep.
there is so much micro potential in that game yet it is too much on the hands to achieve it for most, and so people never bother with the more complicated compositions at higher risk, lower reward.
another small thing i might change is projectile speed. maybe not overall, but making the startup of the animation a little slower would help players register what's happening with ranged units a little better, then you can disjoint, pickup micro, etc. to gain a small edge where you wouldn't normally.
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On September 03 2016 03:56 Hider wrote:And you could see the issue with "blocking" units right there if someone is watching Grubby's stream. He has 4 units! 4 UNITS! and the injured unit got blocked while trying to micro it away. 4 UNITS! Show nested quote +and there are lots of SC2 players complaining the pace of combat is too fast. so striking a balance between fast and fluid and a somewhat forgiving pace of combat is not an easy task. Question yourself why MOBA's don't complain about "pace" except when a hero literally can one-shot another hero. And you see that the only reason they are are complaining about Sc2-pace is because the importance of one battle is too high. So no, it's not difficult to strike a balance. You look at damage and and movement speed only in relation to what creates the best micro interactions, and seperately from that you have a sound MOBA-inspired foundation when it comes to defenders advantage. Btw 4 UNITS!!!
it goes slightly deeper than that. people do complain in a way, and that's by tilting, lol.
in league or i guess in dota also, if people died first in their lane, most people would already feel the lane is unwinnable, and so the game is impossible from their standpoint. complete tilt. so it does really matter even if objectively it's probably a pretty small deal early on.
more skill involved, the more it can matter i guess.
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On September 03 2016 04:03 nanaoei wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2016 03:54 JimmyJRaynor wrote:On September 03 2016 01:53 Hider wrote:
Btw, in Sc2 when I talk about the "proper fast movement speed" in that game I would say its within the 2.7-3.2 (*1.4) range. Movement speed below that are usually quite boring as well (slowhydras/roaches, immortals, colossus, unstimmed bio). and there are lots of SC2 players complaining the pace of combat is too fast. so striking a balance between fast and fluid and a somewhat forgiving pace of combat is not an easy task. as someone who played it pretty avidly with lots of unit comps in high and low latency also, i think it's all pretty good the way it is. only thing i would change is speedlings (or units closer to that speed) and pathing to have more linear collision including air units, if that makes any sense at all. shit moves in a ball cluster and positioning is just made easier or indirectly harder because that is the bread and butter and it is good enough. but as we all know, proper positioning, timing and all that jazz makes or breaks an engagement. it's not that it doesn't matter, it's that it's not as obvious to newer player, and harder even still against fast compositions like zerglings that surround instantly on creep. there is so much micro potential in that game yet it is too much on the hands to achieve it for most, and so people never bother with the more complicated compositions at higher risk, lower reward. another small thing i might change is projectile speed. maybe not overall, but making the startup of the animation a little slower would help players register what's happening with ranged units a little better, then you can disjoint, pickup micro, etc. to gain a small edge where you wouldn't normally.
i'm 100% happy with SC2's speed and pace of combat...i've been top 8 diamond about 10 times and never been in masters.
if i were to change anything i'd give SC2 an RA3 style economy.
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it goes slightly deeper than that. people do complain in a way, and that's by tilting, lol.
But it's very different, you don't see anyone suggesting "let's nerf all damage for all heroes by 20% to make the pace of the game better".
Anyway, while looking at movement-speed I would probably convert the current Atlas speed to around 2.25 (*1.4) in Sc2. So same as unstimmed bio. And while better, I don't think anyone would disagree that there is a lot more micro potential with stimmed marines than unstimmed ones.
One reason the current speed may look (deceivingly) high is that that model sizes are kinda larger than in Sc2/zoomed more in.
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It also does seem like Grubby has a similar concept of micro as I do since he said "I finally micro'ed" 1 hour into the game where he body blocked another unit. Those indicating that all of the basic kiting isn't really micro.
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Atleast I can say that I played with Grubby.
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On September 03 2016 05:33 Klowney wrote:
Atleast I can say that I played with Grubby.
Beat him in Heroes of the Storm. Ez. 
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On September 03 2016 05:17 Hider wrote:
Those indicating that all of the basic kiting isn't really micro.
do you mean,
"thus indicating that all" ?
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Speaking of Atlas popularity, Day9 hasn't streamed it or even tweeted about it. That pretty much confirms that there's bad blood between them.
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On September 03 2016 06:59 AndAgain wrote:Speaking of Atlas popularity, Day9 hasn't streamed it or even tweeted about it. That pretty much confirms that there's bad blood between them.
Yeh I thought of the same thing. You would probably make some type of statement if they left on good footing or at least use your own popularity to tweet (free marketing) for your previous co-workers if they were friends of you.
I really wonder what the issue is. Maybe its personal or they just had strong disagreements on some of the mechanics.
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On September 03 2016 06:59 AndAgain wrote:Speaking of Atlas popularity, Day9 hasn't streamed it or even tweeted about it. That pretty much confirms that there's bad blood between them.
I don't think that it does, but there's certainly no proof in either direction.
I find it hard to believe that Day9 wouldn't want to be associated with GOA if it's a success.
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On September 03 2016 20:07 Incognoto wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2016 06:59 AndAgain wrote:Speaking of Atlas popularity, Day9 hasn't streamed it or even tweeted about it. That pretty much confirms that there's bad blood between them. I don't think that it does, but there's certainly no proof in either direction. I find it hard to believe that Day9 wouldn't want to be associated with GOA if it's a success.
No proof obviously but surely there's some reason to think that might be the case:
- leaving just before the game enters public alpha: some people said "his work is done" but alpha is not the same as done and they're sitll working on the game design
- he's been designing the game for years and as it enters public alpha he doesn't even give it a mention on Twitter
- this while Grubby even gets sponsored to show off the game, would expect Day9 to be a pretty natural fit to do that as well and they're obviously looking for some publicity so the silence from Day9 doesn't make sense
And yes, it's success would be good for Day9 which means he's incentivized to advertise it but he chooses not to. I don't see how that's anything but a reason to see him not saying anything about it as being possible indication of his departure not being entirely amicable.
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I'm losing hope as the days go on but I am just hoping that Day9 is prepping his Atlas content, and that he will announce at the end of a string of high profile streamers. Until he announces his upcoming new content I think it's impossible to say.
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EPT
