EPTAndroid: Netrunner - Page 8
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A crib sheet, for those attempting to learn NetRunner over OCTGN. | ||
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Thereisnosaurus
Australia1822 Posts
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Argoth.
Germany1961 Posts
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SaetZero
United States855 Posts
but yea, you dont want 70% of your deck killed off by atman3 and atman4 sherlock, rototurret, howler, that +1 strength upgrade in HB, and advanceable ice all are decent choices if you need atman solutions. | ||
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gostunv
Japan1178 Posts
ill add you argoth my name is gostunv on OCTGN as well. | ||
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hasuprotoss
United States4668 Posts
For runner, I've sold out and just gone standard Andromeda (except I'm not a big fan of "Tag-me" style, but I'm beginning to think that I should be a fan (and run Plascretes) just so I don't waste a bunch of time when I finally run into a Data Raven) However, Corp just seems so... lackluster? I've tried Jinteki, but I felt like my only real win condition was to flatline the runner. I'm now trying a Weyland deck, but I'm afraid whenever I run into somebody playing some Emergency Shutdowns that my big Hadrian's Wall gets derezzed. I dunno, just not sure what to make of corp right now, as they seem to be on the losing end at the higher end of the skill level (which I'm not even at, lulz) Edit: A lot of this also has to do with card choices. Do I run Melange? You've got to protect it basically for two turns to get any use out of it (install one turn, use the second) and you know a good runner is just going to kill it ASAP. PADs feel underwhelming, as do all of the HB assets that are basically PAD campaigns. And I'd like to start playing on OCTGN as well, just to see outside of my own meta (which is mostly me and my Jinteki playing friend, what a meanie!) | ||
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Thereisnosaurus
Australia1822 Posts
I'm stumped on what to do with a corp deck nowadays. For runner, I've sold out and just gone standard Andromeda (except I'm not a big fan of "Tag-me" style, but I'm beginning to think that I should be a fan (and run Plascretes) just so I don't waste a bunch of time when I finally run into a Data Raven) However, Corp just seems so... lackluster? I've tried Jinteki, but I felt like my only real win condition was to flatline the runner. I'm now trying a Weyland deck, but I'm afraid whenever I run into somebody playing some Emergency Shutdowns that my big Hadrian's Wall gets derezzed. I dunno, just not sure what to make of corp right now, as they seem to be on the losing end at the higher end of the skill level (which I'm not even at, lulz) Edit: A lot of this also has to do with card choices. Do I run Melange? You've got to protect it basically for two turns to get any use out of it (install one turn, use the second) and you know a good runner is just going to kill it ASAP. PADs feel underwhelming, as do all of the HB assets that are basically PAD campaigns. I feel like playing corp is a lot like when you get to understand magic a bit better. When you're starting, you get attached to stuff- like, that big legendary creature or rare card, you feel amazing when you get it out and it wins you the game, and you're terrified of losing it to a doomblade etc. As you learn to play more. you start to value effiency and combinations of cards more than individual card power and you become less attached to things- you're happy to play out that rare to clear their removal spells so you can play a common that will actually end up doing more for you. Corp is like that- it's about making each card pay for itself, which they rarely ever seem to do on their own, but if you play it right they'll manage quite effecitvely. It's about understanding not just what a card can do for you, but what getting rid of it does to the runner. So to use your example of melange- sure, the runner will run it and kill it, but that costs them money and clicks if you defend it with even a small amount of ice, you're essentially trading a click (to install) for a click (to run) + the credits to break your ice + any tricks they have to use up to get in + a credit to trash melange. Pretty good, right? Now, the great thing about melange is that they *have* to run it. You can't let a corp melange for more than a couple of turns and expect to win the game, so in my head melange reads something like 'install, the runner loses 1 click and 7 credits next turn' rather than what it actually does. You can use that info to plan- make them run a melange and then immediately install an agenda while they're low on cash. It gets better: because you install it face down- they don't know it's a melange until you rez it and use it. So not only are you putting on guaranteed financial pressure, you're putting on psychological pressure- is it a melange? is it a 3 for 2 agenda? is it an edge of world? You force one turn of hard choices for them and they lose no matter what they do: If they run it, they burn a load of credits and time for no cost to you. If they don't run it you start raking in money and they still have to spend money to trash it or you're going to get an insurmountable lead- this is the power of melange, they can't really just choose to leave it there unless they're pretty sure they're going to win in the next 3-4 turns. You can even install it in the open to bluff, or install it to fake an agenda install and make them waste their tricks late game even if you don't need the money. The drip economy assets- pad, eve etc- fulfill a similar but slightly different role. They have their money drain effect built in- a high trash cost- so you can put them in the open to drain money from the runner. Remember, the goal of these assets is mostly to try and force favourable trades with the runner's economy. If you can keep them spending credits early to clear your assets, then they won't have those credits to play out crypsis, liberated accounts, dinosaurus or what have you. The absolute ideal situation for me is to play a pad campaign in the open and have them run and trash it before it was rezzed- essentially being '1 click: the runner loses 1 click and 4 credits'. You can use this to psychologically profile your opponent as well- install your pad campaign and don't rez it. Do they run it? if yes, put down assets to make them waste clicks on critical turns. If no, you can try putting out a 3 for 2 or 3 for 1 agenda in the open and scoring it under their nose. Your cards are valuable because they are tools that let you evaluate your opponent and control their game far more than they are valuable for their stated purpose. As with any tools, sometimes you have to pick the right tool for the right job- rezzing a hadrian's wall against a criminal deck is often a futile endeavour. So instead, use the face down ice to bluff a new server or something. If you think you can stop them getting into HQ- a hadrians on one entry and a nice set of ice on the archives ought to do it- then by all means get it running. If you think emergency shutdowns might be incoming though, perhaps only rez your smaller, more efficient ice. Don't play the runner's game- you set the agenda, and force them to deal with your choices. Ultimately playing corp successfully is about money. Understanding how much it costs the runner to do business with you, how you can make them shell out the most for the least cost to you. Face down cards- be they ice or assets- are basically your most powerful tools. It doesn't matter what's printed on the front a lot of the time- if you put a pad campaign face down in your remote, the runner is going to spend just as many credits running through your ice as if it were an astroscript pilot program- because they probably think that's what it is. That facedown popup window looks awfully like a neural katana or an ichi if you're playing jinteki. You can be sure the runner will pay to avoid the data raven counter if you're playing weyland, even if you're not actually running scorched earth. That ice you haven't been rezzing on RND might just as well be a janus once you have 15 credits available, even if it's only an enigma you haven't rezzed because they have a yog.0 . Hope this waffling has proved interesting. Playing corp is super fun once you get your head around the idea that even a face down card is powerful and useful and that your 'power cards' are often best used only to provide potential threats, rather than manifesting them (eg- why actually play scorched when the runner has to account for you playing it anyway) | ||
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Argoth.
Germany1961 Posts
On August 10 2013 03:23 gostunv wrote: Anybody willing to teach me this on OCTGN? ill add you argoth my name is gostunv on OCTGN as well. I'll add you. @ the post above me: Great stuff! This is really helpful and super interesting to a newbie like me. Very good conceptual insights into the idea of how to play this game! | ||
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Kronen
United States732 Posts
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Thereisnosaurus
Australia1822 Posts
http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/edge_upcoming.asp according to that, the coreset reprint was released on/around the 1st of august. | ||
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hasuprotoss
United States4668 Posts
Interesting stuff, I feel like I kind've "knew" some of it, but it's still great to see it written and have what I just kind've guessed at in my deck building be put into words by a more experienced player. I think my corp game could also get better by me becoming slightly more unpredictable, but I'm not sure how to go about that. Maybe watching more games of better players and analyzing their corp actions? Of course, I've also yet to try out my Weyland deck that I've compiled, maybe it runs better than I'm expecting it to! And of course, a lot of that info is new to me and very helpful indeed! @Kronen: There's another set of core sets "on the boat." Assuming that they've been there for about 3-4 weeks they should start shipping to stores very soon. I'm actually starting to get a little anxious that Opening Moves won't be here in September because it's not on the boat already! | ||
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Thereisnosaurus
Australia1822 Posts
I think my corp game could also get better by me becoming slightly more unpredictable, but I'm not sure how to go about that. sometimes you gotta just be a little crazy. Like, Sluggaslamoo who I play against most, puts out 5 for 3 agendas in the open and advances them twice when playing NBN because, like, seriously who does that? It works every time if you haven't played him before, and he usually outright wins the game from it. The moment the runner starts expecting things is the moment you should start exploiting that expectation. eg. 'oh a data raven, obviously a tag and bag deck' > run data ravens in fast advance to make them use their plascretes and pay off tags 'that thing you advanced is clearly a trap, no way you thought I wouldn't be able to run that' > put down and advance agendas you both know they can run. 'you're playing HB fast advance, there's no way you'd be running scorched earth in there, so I can sit on a tag for a turn or two' > scorched earth > archived memories> scorched earth > :3 | ||
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sluggaslamoo
Australia4494 Posts
On August 14 2013 11:03 hasuprotoss wrote: I'm stumped on what to do with a corp deck nowadays. For runner, I've sold out and just gone standard Andromeda (except I'm not a big fan of "Tag-me" style, but I'm beginning to think that I should be a fan (and run Plascretes) just so I don't waste a bunch of time when I finally run into a Data Raven) However, Corp just seems so... lackluster? I've tried Jinteki, but I felt like my only real win condition was to flatline the runner. I'm now trying a Weyland deck, but I'm afraid whenever I run into somebody playing some Emergency Shutdowns that my big Hadrian's Wall gets derezzed. I dunno, just not sure what to make of corp right now, as they seem to be on the losing end at the higher end of the skill level (which I'm not even at, lulz) Edit: A lot of this also has to do with card choices. Do I run Melange? You've got to protect it basically for two turns to get any use out of it (install one turn, use the second) and you know a good runner is just going to kill it ASAP. PADs feel underwhelming, as do all of the HB assets that are basically PAD campaigns. And I'd like to start playing on OCTGN as well, just to see outside of my own meta (which is mostly me and my Jinteki playing friend, what a meanie!) Corp is actually very strong these days, the thing is it's always about knowing what you can get away with in what situation, and that all comes down to lots and lots of trial and error. On OCTGN corp has caught up in winrate vs Runner, which means that Corp is actually stronger because it counts games from a time when Corp had terrible winrates. It does feel like your walking on a razors edge for the most part, even when you have been playing for a while. Unlike runner, you often won't get a straight forward victory. You are constantly deceiving the runner to buy time, and will have to pull a rabbit out of the hat to score some your wins. You also have to look many turns ahead, while Runner reactions are a bit more spontaneous. A couple of times I had to do some hardcore arithmetic looking 3 turns ahead because I could only click for credits and had 2 psychographics, and had to balance rezzing ice to defend vs psycho agendas before he could get them. The silver lining is that bluffs and traps allow corp to eek out wins in dire situations. The Runner is less capable of doing things like that, sometimes you will just be walled out and there is nothing you can do but build up money while the corp fast advances his agendas, or you will just get flatlined out of nowhere. You will find you'll be in those situations a lot more against good corp players. | ||
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bobbob
United States368 Posts
On August 15 2013 08:53 Thereisnosaurus wrote: sometimes you gotta just be a little crazy. Like, Sluggaslamoo who I play against most, puts out 5 for 3 agendas in the open and advances them twice when playing NBN because, like, seriously who does that? It works every time if you haven't played him before, and he usually outright wins the game from it. The moment the runner starts expecting things is the moment you should start exploiting that expectation. eg. 'oh a data raven, obviously a tag and bag deck' > run data ravens in fast advance to make them use their plascretes and pay off tags 'that thing you advanced is clearly a trap, no way you thought I wouldn't be able to run that' > put down and advance agendas you both know they can run. 'you're playing HB fast advance, there's no way you'd be running scorched earth in there, so I can sit on a tag for a turn or two' > scorched earth > archived memories> scorched earth > :3 Basically, punish the runner for forgetting or not playing around cards, and make them play around cards that you are not playing. Punish the runner for running by playing cards that do things other than end the run. The more scared the runner is of running, the less information he has, and the more room you have to sneak things by. Furthermore, the less the runner runs, the more he has to play around, since rather than sitting on 5ish credits, you could have 8+, threatening significantly larger pieces of ice. Make a note of how the runner plays. Did he check to make sure your Marked accounts wasn't a Breaking News? News in the open, close his accounts if he fails to run. Even a Melange in the open can be good. Most often you will be playing in a manner that you know the runner could get in the server if he ran it, but he does not know/believe it and is scared to try. Alternatively he could get in, but would be in a very bad spot afterwards. Today, for example, I kept Hedge Fund, Posted Bounty, False Lead, Scorch, Scorch, leading to a very confused runner who knows I'm playing Snare as I install a False Lead in the open turn 1, and score it turn 2 (Turn 1 of Draw, Hedge, Install, what would you run?). | ||
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BlueBird.
United States3890 Posts
http://boardgamegeek.com/thread/1021499/what-is-the-octgn-cc-data-telling-us Runner: 3772-3123 | 54.71% Corp: 3123-3772 | 44.29% I think we will get lots of new spoilers this weekend cause of Gen Con I'm pretty happy :D. | ||
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sluggaslamoo
Australia4494 Posts
On August 16 2013 05:48 BlueBird. wrote: I don't think Corp is favored at all right now, especially recently, not sure what Octgn numbers your looking at. Look at the numbers for Aug 2 - Aug 13 http://boardgamegeek.com/thread/1021499/what-is-the-octgn-cc-data-telling-us Runner: 3772-3123 | 54.71% Corp: 3123-3772 | 44.29% I think we will get lots of new spoilers this weekend cause of Gen Con I'm pretty happy :D. Yep that's to be expected. CnC changed so much stuff, I wouldn't expect corp to be higher right now until they learn how to deal with all the new bullshit that runner can do (clone chip Noise). I admit that I hadn't been looking at stats post CnC. Just before CnC Corp winrates were slightly higher than Runner for the last 2 months. I think its hard to justify the balance of Netrunner right now because only two factions have been significantly changed. Things should start to even out once the new cycle releases its first data pack. | ||
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Thereisnosaurus
Australia1822 Posts
Feels like NBN wins this one harder than it won future proof. an incredibly powerful asset, agenda and operation. Dat operation, I mean seriously For quick reference: 3 cost + 1 extra click. trace 3, if successful look at the runner's hand and trash a number of resources/events in it equal to the amount by which your trace exceeded their link. So first turn: hedge, play this, pump with basic credits and 2 normal ones. even if they bankrupt themselves you get to trash 2 things, otherwise just get rid of all those inside jobs, account syphons, katie jones, same old things, mr lis, personal workshops, aesops pawn... need I go on? I think crim comes out ahead for the runner, and jinteki comes up second for the corp with some really cool tools right in the place they needed them, just not as absurdly powerful as the NBN cards. | ||
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BlueBird.
United States3890 Posts
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Thereisnosaurus
Australia1822 Posts
Also, as you say, jackson howard really is a game changer. Stimhackwrote a pretty good article on why. I'm personally looking to use him to finally kickstart my weyland deck. Drawing 2 cards makes operation economy far more viable, so I can run loads of those. Now weyland can run a huge suite of money granting agendas as well- hostile takeover, corporate war, geothermal fracking- and project atlas to pull out some cards to recur with jackson. Let's see gabe keep up with that XD. | ||
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Kronen
United States732 Posts
Just for my reference are there expansions that are considered must-buys? Are they largely corp/runner specific? The reason i ask is ill try to keep an eye out for them on amazon at the 10$ price point, otherwise I'll just have my flgs order them. Thanks for the help! | ||
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Thereisnosaurus
Australia1822 Posts
as far as must buys go, the first thing is really to get a second core set or a set of additional cards from ebay to fill things out. There are a bunch of cards in the core set you really want to be able to run 3 of that you only get 2 of. I'd recommend playing around with just the core set. If you find the concept fun and enjoyable, consider buying into the game fully- that means getting the expansions out so far (about 60 bucks), a second core (fairly cheap now) and then $15 a month or so keep up to date. It's well worth it if you have the opportunity to play regularly, and it's worth noting that you don't need your friends to also buy in to have people to play against- Especially now, you can make multiple competition viable decks for each side from a set of one of each current expansion and 2 core sets. | ||
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