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Hey TL,
I've been borderline-obsessed with a roguelike called Sil for the last year, and thought I'd share my love for the game here.
If you're not familiar with roguelikes: They're dungeon crawlers, often ASCII-art based, that have a long heritage dating back from the 70s. They are often excruciatingly difficult. Permadeath is the norm.
Many people are fond of pointing out that the originally Diablo was basically a port of the roguelike "Angband" into modern times.
Sil is a really sophisticated game that involves heavily tactical gameplay. It's also short -- in the unlikely event that you win the game with a character, you'll probably expend 6-10 hours doing so. In comparison, winning a game of Angband will often take several times that. However, there are so many possible builds and approaches to a game of Sil that you can play several hundred characters and still get yourself into completely surprising situations.
Here's the author's description of the game:
+ Show Spoiler +
Sil is a computer role-playing game with a strong emphasis on discovery and tactical combat. It has a simple but rich combat system which allows for a great variety of choice: should you wear heavy armour that makes you easier to hit but reduces the damage you take? should you wield heavier weapons to overcome your opponents’ armour, or wield lighter weapons for more accuracy and a greater chance of critical hits? It depends on the situation and the type of character you become. You will also have the chance to retreat back into shadowy corridors to take the enemy one by one, or to stealthily creep up to your opponent and take him unawares.
It is also one of very few games that stays true to the writings of Tolkien. Carefully researched, it dispenses with many generic fantasy tropes and reveals a different world. There are no wizards or priests, no platemail or magical scrolls. Instead, it is the Norse Saga inspired world that Tolkien imagined, with warriors clad in shining mail, singing songs of rage or sorrow as they slay. The magic of the world is subtle yet powerful: there are songs of fear and of binding, rather than spells of fireball and teleportation.
Sil comes from a tradition of role-playing games known as roguelikes. They stem from a game called Rogue that was written before computers had graphics and instead used symbols on the screen to represent a dungeon filled with monsters and treasure, that was randomly generated each time you played. Rogue also had ‘permanent death’: you have only one life and must choose wisely lest you have to start again. Finally, it had a system of unidentified items whose powers you must discover for yourself. Sil inherits all of these features, though it is much more advanced in many ways.
Who will like Sil?
You will like Sil if you want to play a detailed and well balanced role-playing game with a rich and intuitive system of tactical combat. You will also like it if you are interested in the works of Tolkien, or even just want a less generic role-playing game. The greatest obstacle to enjoying Sil will be its lack of graphics, but if you can overcome an initial reaction and begin to explore the world, your imagination should fill in the details more effectively than a small clump of pixels would.
I love the game so much that I've started making tutorial videos that I've posted to youtube on a dedicated channel. Download instructions etc. for the game are also there.
http://www.youtube.com/user/silstreamer
I hope some fellow TL'ers come to love this game as much as I do!
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well iam not much for playing games like this but it was pretty neat watching your vids that explained it have you ever done a lets play before?
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reminds me of the hours and hours and hours spent on moria
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On July 22 2012 09:53 drivec wrote:
well iam not much for playing games like this but it was pretty neat watching your vids that explained it have you ever done a lets play before?
Nope, this is my first one. Thanks for watching 
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On July 22 2012 10:35 caradoc wrote:
reminds me of the hours and hours and hours spent on moria
Well, Sil is a bastard child of a bastard child of Moria! You're more hardcore than I am, I've tried to play Moria before and it's way too unforgiving for me!
Hope you give Sil a try, it's really a masterpiece IMO. There aren't many people who can stomach games w/ terminal-style interfaces.
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I'll have to try it at some point-- I tend to get hardcore with these things though, and I can't afford another hardcore thing in my life right now 
It's on the to-do list tho!
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How is it in comparison to dungeon crawler stone soup?
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On July 23 2012 04:53 Tobberoth wrote:
How is it in comparison to dungeon crawler stone soup?
Stone Soup is everything that I once loved about roguelikes, which I have now come to hate SS games tend to run long, and you need a lot of esoteric knowledge to play well. SS to me feels like Nethack on steroids, which is awesome if you like Nethack. I played the heck out of that game a few years ago, so I definitely understand the appeal. I'll still watch a live Stone Soup termcast now and then just for fun.
Sil takes a purist, minimalist approach to roguelikes. It's sort of the polar opposite design principle to Stone Soup. There are only 20 floors, games run short (3-6 hours), there are only a handful of monsters and artifacts. However, there are zillions of ability/skill combinations, and each monster or item in the game has something surprising and interesting about it. This leads to a large variety of gameplay with a small set of rules.
I never find myself mindlessly spamming keys in Sil. There's very little scumming/repetitiveness at all. I've played hundreds of games already, and I'm still encountering new situations each game.
FYI, I've posted the first part of the next series of videos, outlining a different build type that is good for beginners! Here:
+ Show Spoiler +
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On July 24 2012 02:31 mikedebo wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2012 04:53 Tobberoth wrote:
How is it in comparison to dungeon crawler stone soup? Stone Soup is everything that I once loved about roguelikes, which I have now come to hate SS games tend to run long, and you need a lot of esoteric knowledge to play well. SS to me feels like Nethack on steroids, which is awesome if you like Nethack. I played the heck out of that game a few years ago, so I definitely understand the appeal. I'll still watch a live Stone Soup termcast now and then just for fun. Sil takes a purist, minimalist approach to roguelikes. It's sort of the polar opposite design principle to Stone Soup. There are only 20 floors, games run short (3-6 hours), there are only a handful of monsters and artifacts. However, there are zillions of ability/skill combinations, and each monster or item in the game has something surprising and interesting about it. This leads to a large variety of gameplay with a small set of rules. I never find myself mindlessly spamming keys in Sil. There's very little scumming/repetitiveness at all. I've played hundreds of games already, and I'm still encountering new situations each game. FYI, I've posted the first part of the next series of videos, outlining a different build type that is good for beginners! Here: + Show Spoiler +
After reading your post here and checking you videos a bit, I decided to download and test and so far, I really like it. I've been playing DCSS for a bit (terrible at it) and I like that, but this feels very different. I like how it feels a lot easier to get into and get good at, while still staying challenging. I feel that unlike DCSS, Sil is a game I can introduce my friends to, even if they aren't hardcore at all. The fact that it's properly based on Tolkien helps with this as well.
I'm sort of worried that the game will get boring since the lack of complexity means less variation. You play different builds, sure, but nothing in comparision to the many magical schools in DCSS, the different gods and how some races in DCSS makes the game very different, such as vampire or mummy. On the other hand, since this game is less complex and games are faster, it's much easier to play "casually" in a pick-up-and-play manner.
Will definitely spend more time on this.
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Glad to hear you like it! Thanks for giving Sil a try.
Like you mentioned in your post, I feel one of the best qualities of Sil is that you can spend just a little bit of time familiarizing yourself with the rules, and feel like you have a shot at doing well. Games like DCSS and Nethack sort of force you to learn "hidden mechanics" either by dying a LOT, or reading the wiki. There's a lot to learn in Sil as well, but it's more about tactics, when to engage and when not to, when it's safe to add something to your build, etc. A lot like SC2, I guess
The game will get richer over time, as well. The next point release (1.0.3) is set to introduce new artifacts, new curses, some new monsters (I think), in addition to some balancing changes. The game is still being very actively developed.
FYI, I just released another video!
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I'll check it out. I had a lot of fun with DCSS, but I preferred to play a random viable race/class combination rather than playing one of the popular builds, and never really got too far. Was going to try out tome, but I like the sounds of this game.
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I love Angband and I still play Tome/TomeNET but what's different about Sil? Shorter, and more Tolkienized?
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On July 25 2012 13:28 starfries wrote:
I love Angband and I still play Tome/TomeNET but what's different about Sil? Shorter, and more Tolkienized?
From what I gathered (haven't played neither Angband nor Tome), Sil is also more simplified, and it really feels that way. Combat rolls are shown clearly to the player, and armor/weapons have their modifiers clearly shown, so it's very easy to know how an item helps you, if it's worth switching etc. It's as if Sil has removed everything but the bare minimum of a roguelike and then made it look really sexy. Unlike most roguelikes where it feels you learn the basics and then play with the hidden mechanics being the big challenge and having a wiki at hand is a must, you can pretty much read through the Sil manual (which isn't even all that long) and you'll know exactly what's going on the whole time.
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I refuse to play an Elf and I have not made it passed 150'. Thanks for the heads up though, I played a lot of NetHack a while ago. I recently picked up Dredmor, but that never really did it for me. This will fill the void NH left.
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On July 25 2012 16:09 Tobberoth wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2012 13:28 starfries wrote:
I love Angband and I still play Tome/TomeNET but what's different about Sil? Shorter, and more Tolkienized? From what I gathered (haven't played neither Angband nor Tome), Sil is also more simplified, and it really feels that way. Combat rolls are shown clearly to the player, and armor/weapons have their modifiers clearly shown, so it's very easy to know how an item helps you, if it's worth switching etc. It's as if Sil has removed everything but the bare minimum of a roguelike and then made it look really sexy. Unlike most roguelikes where it feels you learn the basics and then play with the hidden mechanics being the big challenge and having a wiki at hand is a must, you can pretty much read through the Sil manual (which isn't even all that long) and you'll know exactly what's going on the whole time.
Couldn't have answered it better myself The richness in Sil's gameplay comes from the interactions of many well-known and easily-learned mechanics, instead of a bunch of weird unpredictable things that you just need to learn by dying repeatedly or begging for help on IRC.
On July 25 2012 21:04 justinpal wrote:I refuse to play an Elf and I have not made it passed 150'. Thanks for the heads up though, I played a lot of NetHack a while ago. I recently picked up Dredmor, but that never really did it for me. This will fill the void NH left.
Ha! Are you opposed to elves altogether, or just the Noldor? If you can play Sindar, a Falathrim archery build is a reasonable introduction to the game. Otherwise, I'd use the Naugrim with Smithing mastery and make awesome stuff.
I've just posted vid #5! Spoilered:
+ Show Spoiler +
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I'm really enjoying your screencasts. I've attempted nethack and another roguelike or two but was always put off by how esoteic and complex the roguelikes I played were, coupled with how unforgiving they are (I know sil is arguably more unforgiving in that you lack any easy out, but i feel like the game is more balanced around the knowledge/difficulty curve.)
First playthrough I got far enough to encounter that green unique orc mob...
I'm curious though is there a wiki or a forum where there's lots of discussion on the game? I haven't been able to find much other than a single thread on some roguelike forum that appears to be the official thread, and isn't particularly large.
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On July 26 2012 21:19 mikedebo wrote:
Ha! Are you opposed to elves altogether, or just the Noldor? If you can play Sindar, a Falathrim archery build is a reasonable introduction to the game. Otherwise, I'd use the Naugrim with Smithing mastery and make awesome stuff.
I'm more of a fanatic for Tolkien Dwarves than anything. I have only played Naugrim as of right now. I'm going to really experiment with enchanting and smithing. I have so many options that I am not even certain what is best just yet. But, it really has been fun so far. Your videos are great for helping me figure things out.
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On July 27 2012 11:06 Bobbias wrote:
I'm really enjoying your screencasts. I've attempted nethack and another roguelike or two but was always put off by how esoteic and complex the roguelikes I played were, coupled with how unforgiving they are (I know sil is arguably more unforgiving in that you lack any easy out, but i feel like the game is more balanced around the knowledge/difficulty curve.)
First playthrough I got far enough to encounter that green unique orc mob...
I'm curious though is there a wiki or a forum where there's lots of discussion on the game? I haven't been able to find much other than a single thread on some roguelike forum that appears to be the official thread, and isn't particularly large.
Unfortunately, it seems that Sil lacks any form of community. There's a forum linked on the official site, but it's not active at all. There's also quite a few people who have uploaded character dumps, and there's some slight discussion in the comments there, but I haven't been able to find anything else, forum, wiki, chat, nothing.
I mean hell, just searching for Sil on google or youtube gives like, nothing, so it's probably not well spread (but it's still quite new if I understood correctly).
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Yeah, that's what it was looking like to me. I'm generally pretty good at locating communities for things when I look, but I was wondering if maybe there was some hidden place that just happened to be google-resistant or something.
I mean, Sil's a roguelike, and shares enough in common that anyone who's familiar with a roguelike should be able to pick it up pretty quickly, but it's always nice to have a decent community around a game for discussing things, etc.
I'd been hoping there was some way to find a sort of "guide to approaches for builds" per se. I'm not particularly good at figuring things out on my own when it comes to things like specific stat distributions and how they work with different builds, etc. I'm just not hardcore enough to care to take down the necessary information to figure that shit out (although it's not particularly difficult). I prefer to just basically pick things up, make a decision on how i'd like to play my character, and know roughly how to execute that, and basically improvise when necessary.
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Hey guys,
If you go to http://angband.oook.cz and post a thread with "[Sil] My subject title" in the Variants forum, someone will answer you in a hurry. That community played about 400 Sil characters in the space of 3 months, so they've cooled down on talking about it for the time being.
However, questions/posts from new people are greeted with enthusiasm. The games' creators (half and Scatha) are both pushing towards the 1.0.3 release, so they've been quieter than usual, but they will usually chime in as well.
Also, if you scan the Sil character ladder for recent characters OR strong characters, you can get a rough idea of how to sequence your ability purchases and what to forge. Or you could just ask questions here and I'll do my best to answer them!
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On July 27 2012 13:09 justinpal wrote:Show nested quote +On July 26 2012 21:19 mikedebo wrote:
Ha! Are you opposed to elves altogether, or just the Noldor? If you can play Sindar, a Falathrim archery build is a reasonable introduction to the game. Otherwise, I'd use the Naugrim with Smithing mastery and make awesome stuff.
I'm more of a fanatic for Tolkien Dwarves than anything. I have only played Naugrim as of right now. I'm going to really experiment with enchanting and smithing. I have so many options that I am not even certain what is best just yet. But, it really has been fun so far. Your videos are great for helping me figure things out.
The 100' forge is very important for smithing-focused characters.
For a protection-based brawler (which dwarves are quite good at), a good start is taking Armoursmith and Enchantment and making mail corslet of protection and a shield of deflection, plus whatever else you can make. Alternatively, you can take Armoursmith and Artistry and make armor with strong bonuses.
Don't worry about forging a weapon at 100' because dwarves have axe proficiency, and you should be able to find a decent battle-axe before 300'.
Also, throwing axes are viable ranged weapons for dwarves. They suck at archery, but throwing is based on melee and throwing axes are very powerful throwing weapons.
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This is sort of random, but I just did some idle creeping after killing off my 150th Sil character and discovered that the game's creator is sort of a minor celebrity. He makes an average salary at Oxford and has committed to giving a big chunk of it away to charity, despite the fact that he is not rich.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-11950843
Definitely helps explain the general spirit of economy and thrift that went into Sil's design!
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Playing this now.
This roguelike doesn't have 500 hidden mechanics that require me to have a wiki open at all times which is quite nice.
The combat actually feels...good. I feel like I'm rewarded for proper combat planning and choosing when and how to engage/GTFO, while other roguelikes are sort of degenerate on combat especially with Teleport spells, or high speed being an insta-out from 90%+ of bad engagements. I'm slightly irritated that I don't get to start with a bow or a stack of throwing weapons immediately though.
Currently really sucking at a few things though.
-Is there a list of things that are guaranteed like the forge at 100'? Guaranteed items for example
-Is there a way to hotkey throwing weapons like how bows are automatically fired? Having to go through selecting my throwing weapon each time makes them harder to use.
-How the hell do I increase my light radius?
Thanks
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On July 30 2012 04:56 scrubtastic wrote:
Playing this now.
This roguelike doesn't have 500 hidden mechanics that require me to have a wiki open at all times which is quite nice.
The combat actually feels...good. I feel like I'm rewarded for proper combat planning and choosing when and how to engage/GTFO, while other roguelikes are sort of degenerate on combat especially with Teleport spells, or high speed being an insta-out from 90%+ of bad engagements. I'm slightly irritated that I don't get to start with a bow or a stack of throwing weapons immediately though.
Putting 2 points into Smithing and taking weaponsmith will guarantee you a bow and (at least) 24 arrows at the 100' forge. If you're playing a Feanorian elf, this is 300xp investment (since your first forging ability will be free.)
I'd say about 75% of the games I play will present me with a bow and some arrows before 150'. Even if you just take archery points and buy Versatility (without putting any points in melee), you can usually survive pretty easily until then.
On July 30 2012 04:56 scrubtastic wrote:
Currently really sucking at a few things though.
-Is there a list of things that are guaranteed like the forge at 100'? Guaranteed items for example
-Is there a way to hotkey throwing weapons like how bows are automatically fired? Having to go through selecting my throwing weapon each time makes them harder to use.
-How the hell do I increase my light radius?
Thanks
There really aren't any other guarantees until you get to 1000'  I guess you can count the types of monsters that appear at each depth as a 'guarantee', and that is something you learn with time. The only other thing I can think of is that Clear potions are guaranteed to be Miruvor, and Murky Brown potions are guaranteed to be Orcish Liquor. Certain uniques also drop very specific artefacts, but that isn't guaranteed either (e.g. the only way to get the Spear of Boldog is by killing Boldog, but he's _not_ guaranteed to drop it.)
You can semi-hotkey any item by using inscriptions. So, if you want to be able to throw your daggers by typing 't0', then inscribe them with '{' and give them the inscription '@t0'. (Or '@t1' if you want to type 't1', etc.)
This works well for swap-equipment, too. If you have a weapon you often swap to, you can inscribe it with '@w0' and then typing "w0" will do it, no matter what letter-code it has been given in your inventory. (This is common across all Angband-style roguelikes, AFAIK.)
Light radius is discussed in one of the early videos. Helms of brilliance, swords of brilliance, amulet of the blessed realm (forging a +0 one of these takes only 11 Smithing skill) are all wearable equipment that increase light radius. A plain old lantern has 2 radius, instead of the 1 given by torches. Feanorian lamps are even better, and burn forever. Many artefacts also increase your light radius.
Situationally, you can sing the Song of Trees to temporarily get more light. Weapons with a Slays X will give you an extra light radius when monsters of type X are near. Finally, taking Inner Light (Will ability) won't increase your radius, but will shine your light more brightly in its current radius (good for dispelling darkness). Keen senses (Perception ability) lets you see monsters just outside of your light radius, which is incredibly useful for stealth- or archery-based builds.
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Yeah my last melee character got stuck in a dark room and died to a very high number of worms I couldn't see.
So I've been looking at ranged options with lots of light so I can hopefully avoid that (and I still had a stack of torches and nothing else lol). Archery looks like it has lots of potential for picking off annoying high evasion/ranged things...but I need to be able to see everything. Oh and surviving melee would be pretty nice too - guess just pumping archery and getting Versatility would be the way to go.
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Archers are really good in Sil. For your initial build, I'd put 3 points into Song and take Elbereth, and then split the rest among Archery and Evasion. Take Versatility in the Archery tree.
Use Elbereth to scare off / scatter orc soldiers that you encounter too soon. If you drive them towards stairs when they're fleeing, they'll run up/down them.
Pool your XP until you get to the 100' forge and you've cleared the 100' floor. If you haven't seen a bow and/or arrows by the time you're there, put 2 pts into Smithing and take Weaponsmith. Forge away. (Ideal bow is an x lb longbow, where x is your strength.)
After that, pump Archery and Evasion, taking Precision from the archery tree ASAP. Use Elbereth to push monsters away when they get too close, and you'll be able to keep shooting.
I'm going to do an archery series soon!
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On July 30 2012 06:57 scrubtastic wrote:
Yeah my last melee character got stuck in a dark room and died to a very high number of worms I couldn't see.
Inner Light and/or a Herb of Rage would have helped your escape. Also, when you see a worm that you know you're not going to kill, try to make sure that all the doors to its room are shut.
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I've only played a little, but I really like it so far. I've only played NetHack and Crawl Stone Soup in the past, and I'm enjoying the contrast here. The AI in Sil seems much more interesting. It seems like in NH and DCSS most enemies go on the attack as soon as they see you, but some in Sil will move around to stay out of your reach and flee when they are injured. It feels more like they're actual characters in a world rather than a bundle of hit points and attacks. Overall, instead of just throwing in more and more mechanics and options like DCSS, they focus on making the core mechanics deep and interesting.
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On July 30 2012 08:30 Apothegm wrote:
I've only played a little, but I really like it so far. I've only played NetHack and Crawl Stone Soup in the past, and I'm enjoying the contrast here. The AI in Sil seems much more interesting. It seems like in NH and DCSS most enemies go on the attack as soon as they see you, but some in Sil will move around to stay out of your reach and flee when they are injured. It feels more like they're actual characters in a world rather than a bundle of hit points and attacks. Overall, instead of just throwing in more and more mechanics and options like DCSS, they focus on making the core mechanics deep and interesting.
That's the 4GAI from NPPAngband at work, I believe I'm not sure if the game's creators tweaked it at all. I also don't know if that AI survives in current versions of NPPAngband, but that's another great roguelike of the sprawling, complicated variety!
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Currently: loving the hell out of archery
Kiting enemies? Hummerhorns/archers/high evade stuff? They all eat an arrow or three to the face at whatever range I like, I just don't care.
Oh look, that large group of orc warriors is waiting for me to exit the corridor.
1) Turn on Elbereth in corridor
2) Watch them all run
3) Snipe with impunity
Stupid archery moment:
There was a room full of clear worms between me and both staircases (I blame that large group of Easterling warriors for occupying my time). I also had a nice stockpile (200+) of vanilla arrows.
1) Step into line of sight of the room
2) Fire until I can't see anything
3) Step closer
4) Repeat 2) and 3) until the room is cleared
I think I only got meleed twice during the entire effort.
Current archery issues:
Damage output is very low vs high protect stuff. Flaming arrows on/off seems to work for some of them but I really should look into something else because that is pretty harsh on my arrow stockpile and for one target even that wasn't enough. Maybe Song of Sharpness?
Looks like Enchant for poisoned/piercing arrows. Tempted to get a smith/archer.
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Looks interesting, thanks for sharing. Gonna check out your videos when I get time later.
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This game looks super fun and I want to play it but I just cant play a roguelike without the hjkl keys for movement. Is there any way to turn them on in this game?
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On July 31 2012 12:32 scrubtastic wrote:
Currently: loving the hell out of archery
Kiting enemies? Hummerhorns/archers/high evade stuff? They all eat an arrow or three to the face at whatever range I like, I just don't care.
Oh look, that large group of orc warriors is waiting for me to exit the corridor.
1) Turn on Elbereth in corridor
2) Watch them all run
3) Snipe with impunity
Stupid archery moment:
There was a room full of clear worms between me and both staircases (I blame that large group of Easterling warriors for occupying my time). I also had a nice stockpile (200+) of vanilla arrows.
1) Step into line of sight of the room
2) Fire until I can't see anything
3) Step closer
4) Repeat 2) and 3) until the room is cleared
I think I only got meleed twice during the entire effort.
Current archery issues:
Damage output is very low vs high protect stuff. Flaming arrows on/off seems to work for some of them but I really should look into something else because that is pretty harsh on my arrow stockpile and for one target even that wasn't enough. Maybe Song of Sharpness?
Looks like Enchant for poisoned/piercing arrows. Tempted to get a smith/archer.
From what I've seen among the uploaded characters, Song of Sharpness is definitely the way to go, you should more or less rush it. In the comment section, it looked like they got to a "wall" where if you get song of sharpness, it becomes WAY easier suddenly.
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On July 31 2012 15:29 whatusername wrote:
This game looks super fun and I want to play it but I just cant play a roguelike without the hjkl keys for movement. Is there any way to turn them on in this game?
I'm pretty sure that's mentioned in the tutorial? Have you tried the options menu? (I think it's O for options).
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On July 31 2012 15:29 whatusername wrote:
This game looks super fun and I want to play it but I just cant play a roguelike without the hjkl keys for movement. Is there any way to turn them on in this game?
Sil does have rogue-style controls that it inherited from NPPAngband, but I think there might be some glitches in there still. Go to (O)ptions, pick (a), and then select "Move with hjkl..."
On July 31 2012 12:32 scrubtastic wrote:
Current archery issues:
Damage output is very low vs high protect stuff. Flaming arrows on/off seems to work for some of them but I really should look into something else because that is pretty harsh on my arrow stockpile and for one target even that wasn't enough. Maybe Song of Sharpness?
Weapons in Sil are sort of slotted across a continuum of "light" (low # of dice, but high number of sides) and "heavy" (high number of dice, low number of sides.) Bow/arrow counts as "light", for all intents and purposes, since bows do 1dX damage, where X is usually quite large.
There are two types of monsters that give "light" weapons users headaches:
1) High protection monsters. This can actually be mitigated by taking a light bow (one whose weight exactly matches your strength is usually a good idea), and making sure that you get Precision and other attack-boosting/crit enhancing abilities (like Focused Attack.) Catching the enemy off-guard is great too -- if they're unwary or sleeping, they will take a large evasion penalty. That's why I like stealth on my archers.
If you get your attack roll high enough and their evasion roll is low enough, you will easily do multi-critical hits. If you get a 3-4x critical, there are few protection-monsters in the game who can withstand that. This works really well with Crippling Shot.
As an example, the Serpents that begin appearing around 600' have very high protection, but their evasion is not great. If you peg them with one good multi-critical shot, they will die.
2) Critical-resistant/immune monsters. For these guys, you don't have many options. You either have to run from them, or get piercing arrows or song of sharpness. The most dangerous of these are also fast and hit hard -- e.g. Deathblades. It's not a bad idea as an archer to carry around a big weapon in case of emergencies, like a good Greatsword or Bastard sword. That way, if your back is up against a wall and you have crit-resistant monsters to either side, you can down a !Dex and/or !Str and wack your way out of it. Disguise and Vanish are probably the best option here, though -- no one said you need to kill _everything_
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In response to some of the comments here, I've started a new video series with an archery-based build. Enjoy!
+ Show Spoiler +
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It's hilarious how garbage I am at this game~~~ lot of fun though. I try to die 3 times a day. Which adds up to maybe 30 minutes tops xS
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On August 06 2012 11:18 Rainmaker5 wrote:
It's hilarious how garbage I am at this game~~~ lot of fun though. I try to die 3 times a day. Which adds up to maybe 30 minutes tops xS
Haha. How far along are you getting? What race/skill combos have you been trying?
If you want to make things a bit easier for yourself, pick Noldor -> Feanor as your race/house, and then put 5 points each into melee, stealth, and evasion. Take Charge as your melee ability. This way, most monsters won't see you right off the bat.
Also, don't pick fights with groups of monsters. Fight in corridors if a pack is trying to surround you.
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Next video in the stealth/archer series is up:
+ Show Spoiler +
EDIT: Youtube snafu -- reuploaded
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Took a week break from Sil then went back in to do some more archery.
Getting slightly irritated at the inventory restriction of a couple dozen items regardless of size/weight. Tempting to make a build that just rushes Loremaster
Did one run with a zero stealth, low smithing archer which wasn't as painful as I thought it would be (up until false floor => get knocked to 10 HP => 3 Easterling archers spawning on the stairs up from 450' while I'm in the middle of the room, assholes). The general idea was to maximize my 1 or 2 shot kill ability through Perception + Focused Attack + Precision + Flaming Arrows + too much Archery. Hell I ditched Versatility and used archery in melee without Point Blank; you don't take Attacks of Opportunity if your target dies immediately Still needed to be really careful though and had to run for the stairs a few times.
One somewhat notable thing was that I didn't really fear Wargs much; turn on the flame and attempt a killshot before they can attack.
Sadly I didn't get to the actual hard part of the game with all the really mean stuff but I'll probably try it again.
The other build I had in mind used Stealth + Song of Silence. At least in early game I was able to get quite a few kills without anyone waking anybody up - like, the wolves/orcs or whatever would just sit there and die one at a time because combat/shouting gets muffled. Wonder if it's worthwhile...
*edit* Question: Is there anything really dangerous that's crit *immune* and not crit resistant? I've never run into a Deathblade for example so that's probably top of my priority list. If it's only (heh) crit resistant it might be a little easier to handle if I do things properly.
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Some nice experimentation there, Scrubtastic. Your mega-archery focused build is definitely viable, but packs are dangerous, as you discovered. Still, though, false floors are almost always very bad/unlucky. I
Stealth + song of silence is very effective. Stealth + vanish has a similar effect, since you can sneak out of sight if too many monsters are aggravated, but Song of Silence is very cheap (relative to Vanish) and you can use it for other things (muffling the sound of doors you need to break down, for example.)
I think there are some statue-type (H) and undead monsters who are crit-immune, but I can't remember off the top of my head. I would say that Deathblades are the biggest worry for a stealthy/stabby/shooty character, since it takes a high melee score _and_ high non-crit damage dice to reliably damage them. I play a lot of stealth/rogue type characters, and while Delmereth is one of the best non-smithed weapons for such a character, it's a HUGE pain to subdue him without dying. Usually I have to quaff !Str, !Dex, and !Con and wield a greatsword or a mattock or something to bring it down.
Next video in the stealth/archer series is up:
+ Show Spoiler [video] +
Enjoy!
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Oh in my quest for archery starts I found a couple of things to potentially take advantage of:
A) The so-called 100' forge isn't really a 100' forge...it's the 2nd map forge. So if you want to forge something (like that longbow you always wanted) but don't want to risk trying to clear out the forge at 100' with a gimptacular character (like my non-Versatility archer) you find the stairs UP, end up back in 50' and then find the forge on that map, which will probably be quite a bit easier to clear.
Disadvantages:
1) You lose out on quite a bit of XP due to lack of new creatures/floor XP. So if your smithing requires XP (sprinting boots) I probably wouldn't bother at all.
2) Potential gimping of the forge. I know my sample size is limited but a forge a 50' seems to never be a 4 use and is kinda often a 2 use. I recall one moment in one of mikedebo's videos that a 4 use forge is quite important, and I'm not sure if it ever happens at 50'
B) Taking a page from certain other roguelike degenerate scum tactics (although this game is probably hard enough, and stairwalking is punishing enough, that doing tactics like these isn't really that degenerate at all), you can farm certain items a bit by purposely respawning floors. I find this pretty helpful with farming vanilla arrows; clearing 100'/150' a few times can get me a good stockpile of arrows (that I will proceed to set on fire).
*edit* Thanks for the videos - gonna admit though that I'm not too much of a video person and really like reading text instead so I haven't watched the latest ones yet, so if you covered something like this in your last two videos I apologize
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On August 11 2012 17:55 scrubtastic wrote:
Oh in my quest for archery starts I found a couple of things to potentially take advantage of:
A) The so-called 100' forge isn't really a 100' forge...it's the 2nd map forge. So if you want to forge something (like that longbow you always wanted) but don't want to risk trying to clear out the forge at 100' with a gimptacular character (like my non-Versatility archer) you find the stairs UP, end up back in 50' and then find the forge on that map, which will probably be quite a bit easier to clear.
Disadvantages:
1) You lose out on quite a bit of XP due to lack of new creatures/floor XP. So if your smithing requires XP (sprinting boots) I probably wouldn't bother at all.
2) Potential gimping of the forge. I know my sample size is limited but a forge a 50' seems to never be a 4 use and is kinda often a 2 use. I recall one moment in one of mikedebo's videos that a 4 use forge is quite important, and I'm not sure if it ever happens at 50'
Yup, this is a great trick to use if you're trying to be safe. I don't particularly like it because, as you said, you lose out on XP. If you're just forging weapons, then it's great. An archer, for example, could forge a longbow, arrows, a mattock, and something like a longsword of brilliance or a defender longsword for very little XP.
I don't think it should affect the probability of getting 4 uses on the forge, though -- you might just be getting screwed by the RNG
I haven't explicitly mentioned this in the videos, IIRC -- thanks for reminding me. I'll try to remember to address it on the next character I spin up!
On August 11 2012 17:55 scrubtastic wrote:
B) Taking a page from certain other roguelike degenerate scum tactics (although this game is probably hard enough, and stairwalking is punishing enough, that doing tactics like these isn't really that degenerate at all), you can farm certain items a bit by purposely respawning floors. I find this pretty helpful with farming vanilla arrows; clearing 100'/150' a few times can get me a good stockpile of arrows (that I will proceed to set on fire).
This is a good idea that I never thought of before. You can't farm 100'/150' too many times anyways because you are allowed very few turns at that depth, so you might as well maximize it while you can! At that point, you could probably just dive to 400'/450' to make up for lost time.
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This is one of my favorites so far! We're getting close to the endgame, so there's a lot of new sights to see:
+ Show Spoiler [video] +
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Really excited for the end dude!
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Haha it's coming! Thanks for watching
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Angband is easily my favourite game ever. I can definitely recommend roguelikes in general. And angband.oook.cz is a great community that anyone interested in roguelikes should hang out in.
6-8 hour games sound hillarious. Angband usually takes a week of solid daily play. Unless you're PowerDiver, in which case you can win fucking ironman artifactless games well shy of level 50 -_-
Sil sounds a little luck based though, is that not the case? My impression of angband was that it was pure skill-based from start to finish. If you got into an unwinnable situation, it was your fault and could've easily been avoided.
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I actually dislike vanilla angband quite a bit now. I was hella addicted to it at first, but the love affair quickly cooled.
I've finished it several times, and the only characters I've ever killed were mage-types. It drags on too long, the gameplay is too rinse-repeat, and after my first win, I found myself to be bored. Reason being that all fights degenerate into "dig antisummon tunnel, quaff infinity potions, spam attack". Insta-escapes are boring for me -- triggering a teleport level or teleport rod when you're in trouble isn't really tension-inducing to me. And the firm speed and resistance walls are a cheeky difficulty mechanic, IMO -- getting killed by an offscreen drolem breathing poison because you haven't found a resistance to it yet isn't interesting to me.
Still, I think it's a good introductory roguelike for people looking to get their feet wet. Especially 3.3-ish, since it's so easy. There are other variants of it that are quite good as well.
Sil is about 1000x better than Angband in my (biased) opinion. The gameplay is tight. Different monsters require different approaches to defeat. Different players can find success in wildly different playstyles -- some players (like myself) have claimed it's impossible to win without stealth, while others find it impossible to win _with_ stealth. And tactics matter a lot more than in Angband, IMO -- once you develop tactical approaches for specific monsters / situations that are tailored to your build, you start to do very well.
Good luck in Sil can make your life easier, but it's not required to win. I feel like this is the same as in Angband, but Angband gives you a lot more room to make mistakes. After all, if things get tough, you can just teleport away and hope you don't get caught in another awful situation.
Sil hits that sweet spot of everything I love about roguelikes. I don't think it's for everyone. But I'm sure glad it's there
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wwwwww@wwww <-- This is how I've died the last 3 or 4 times. Clear worms...I was doing pretty well up until then, poison hurts!
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On September 03 2012 02:19 justinpal wrote:
wwwwww@wwww <-- This is how I've died the last 3 or 4 times. Clear worms...I was doing pretty well up until then, poison hurts!
Don't fight near worms if you can help it. And if there are like 4+ of them, go around. Close doors on them to quarantine them if they start to get out of hand.
If they surround you, eat a herb of rage. Doesn't work that well in corridors, but in a wide-open room it's awesome. So much carnage! Even better if you have song of slaying
New video up -- this one of the + Show Spoiler +!
+ Show Spoiler [video] +
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Just checking in to say that there's been a new version of Sil released (1.1) and it's AWESOME!
I've started a new 1.1 character for demonstration purposes:
+ Show Spoiler [video] +
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EPT
