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I am really disappointed in the way that this thread is going and I have to say that I have seldom seen any threads on TL that don't talk about facts but just carry emotion and in a bad way.
Most of the comments made in this thread serve no purpose.
I mean yes its okay to discuss the payment model, to agree or disagree with it and suggest viable alternatives, but the way this is done here is just without any thinking or argument at all or explanations its just bad.
Most of the time the posts read just like: "I don't wanna pay money each month so the game sucks."
Then there is also discussion about the pre-order bonuses, especially the play and race in any alliance. There is also no real discussion about it, just the unfounded claims that the aldmeri dominion will consist of masses of Nords only and what not.
I mean if you played the ES series you now, that in all parts of Tamriel there life all kinds of people. Skyrim is no Nords only club, and even from an RP point of view why shouldn't some lets say Breton born or raised in Skyrim fight for the Ebonheart pact because he regards it as his home ?
And I don't understand the fuss about the Imperial being game breaking and what not. Although its purely vanity, its just another cosmetic human pack with some racial features that are not earthshaking. I mean you don't get a new starting area or quests because its just the three factions.
Also the XP bonus, ... really, okay that it takes someone else 1 or to days more to reach max level if they want it so bad, so what ? I mean even back in the day in WoW when I was playing you could level up a character fast equip it with friends, guild mates or what not and go raiding with it in record time and be en pare with characters that have been played for month or years ... I mean if you could buy a weapon or armor that is not obtainable through conventional means and has killer stats, yeah this would be game breaking, leveling a bit faster and reaching max level 2-3 days later is not.
I mean if you played wow and you would have reached your max level 2-3 days later then you did, would it even have these consequences in the end ?
The preorder or deluxe bonuses are really just vanity. Imperials are just another human race played in the normal starting area with no extra lore or anything. And if you want this vanity you have to pay for it and if not you aren't missing out on anything. If you look at the facts most of these negative posts about it are just *poof* hot air with no background to it.
I mean you can say that you'd like to play imperial and don't like it to pay for the vanity of playing it, but it is certainly not game changing or breaking in any way.
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im not too involved in this but i really disagree. in a full price game like this locking content and advantages of any way behind an additional paywall is a giant no go.
and at the start of an mmo XP bonuses are a huge deal. if you are at the top fast you are one of the first ones that deal in the high level market which can provide HUGE opportunitys.
flavorwise i personally dont care too much, i barely know anything about the ES lore but i can see how it offends people. paywall for further options that might go against concepts of the lore is just bad .
people have all right to be giantly pissed about a company upfront squeezing additional money for advantages and options. its just bad and its great that some people still stand up to stuff like that.
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Paygates on a sub-based MMO are rather unacceptable. Don't get me wrong, releasing a CE with vanity stuff is fine, all games do it. But having an entire race reserved to the people who are willing to pay more is simply wrong. A developer can't do that and not expect to be called greedy, because no matter which way you put it, it is greedy.
Let us not forget that this is only the beginning, not even that. If they lock out races behind paygates now, what else is next? They've set a rather unpleasant precedent for their game, and in the end I think that's what bothers most people.
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When a publisher is already asking 60$ and 15$ a month, adding a need to pay 20$ to get a specific race and other features (more xp, more flexibility to which race you're gonna play) just make me flee from this game. I'm not gonna argue that they can't do it. They definitely can but no way I'm gonna pay 60$ and a subscription for a game practicing also F2P features (money for additional races, flexibility, experience boost).
I'm not gonna try to convince someone it is game breaking, it certainly doesn't look like it. But it all smells like poop to me. It has nothing to do with making a 3 paragraphs argumentation that analyses whether or not you get something substantial from 20$ more. It's just a break of trust from my part, where I just say: no, won't buy. Call it knee-jerk reaction if you want but when you add the real skepticism of some beta players regarding the actual gameplay it just doesn't look good from my position.
But hey it's just my opinion man.
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On February 10 2014 07:02 Spaylz wrote:
Paygates on a sub-based MMO are rather unacceptable. Don't get me wrong, releasing a CE with vanity stuff is fine, all games do it. But having an entire race reserved to the people who are willing to pay more is simply wrong. A developer can't do that and not expect to be called greedy, because no matter which way you put it, it is greedy.
Let us not forget that this is only the beginning, not even that. If they lock out races behind paygates now, what else is next? They've set a rather unpleasant precedent for their game, and in the end I think that's what bothers most people.
My point is that the whole race is just a vanity.
The reason for this are: They have the same starting ares, They wont have any extra quests. An imperial starting for the Ebonheart pact would have no different leveling experience then a Nord, Argonian or Dunmer.
He will have his own racial traits, but from what I have seen so far, they don't really give you an advantage or disadvantage, they are just there and are not strong defining features. You don't get spells or something that other races dont have, you get something like, the bow levels a bit faster or your dual wielding or your stamina or magica regenerates faster by 2-3 % and that is it. The races don't really differ except in their visual representation and this is just vanity.
And I think having vanity as a "paygate" is a good source of income.
And it is what it is a business and a business has to make money. Maybe I've gotten to old or now that I am working I see things differently, maybe my younger self would have had a problem with it too, but now, I really can not understand or grasp what all the negative fuss is about.
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On February 10 2014 07:15 Holy_AT wrote:My point is that the whole race is just a vanity.
On February 10 2014 07:15 Holy_AT wrote:He will have his own racial traits
You should probably stop contradicting yourself, however small the racial difference might seem to you, it is not fucking vanity to have other racial bonuses. There are also people in WoW who don't care about racial bonuses because a lot of them really wont change the gameplay for you, but for some people it does matter. Like hardcore PVPers who minmax.
Putting stuff like that behind a paywall when the game is already subscription based with a cash shop and you gotta buy the base game, is just greedy. It's not "well business gotta make money!" it's downright greedy, vanity items are fine but an entire race with different bonuses is not vanity. Experience bonuses are also not "just vanity" they matter and people care about them, being the first to get to the high levels means that you're the first with access to the high level stuff meaning you have an advantage over late arrivals to those levels.
Also lmfao at the "Well maybe i'm just older and more mature than you young immature people who get mad at stuff", obviously paraphrased but that was how the end of your post came out.
I have no problem with subscription based games, but the game should come with everything included if you want to run a subscription based game, because people are paying constantly for playing. Nothing that isn't 100% vanity should be behind a paywall in a subscription-based game.
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Also lmfao at the "Well maybe i'm just older and more mature than you young immature people who get mad at stuff", obviously paraphrased but that was how the end of your post came out.
I am sorry, I did not want to imply such a thing, and I apologize. Somehow, I was just reminiscing about my old days in WoW where I was pretty hotheaded and that is an understatement. And I just thought that maybe I had lost something, some passion for the game or gaming in general, that I no longer posses nowadays. It was not meant as an insult to being immature.
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And I think having vanity as a "paygate" is a good source of income.
And it is what it is a business and a business has to make money. Maybe I've gotten to old or now that I am working I see things differently, maybe my younger self would have had a problem with it too, but now, I really can not understand or grasp what all the negative fuss is about.
its about greedy money grabs at the cost of the consumer and quality of the game. something that esp people with expirience in the game market should care about.
i COULD just pay the money now that im older. but also i dont go crazy "I MUST HAVE THIS" anymore and rather give them the finger cause i as a (potential) consumer feel treated like shit.
also vanity stuff doesnt matter and no one cares, locked out races with unique abilities, additional xp and loot are the exact opposite. there is no argueing this
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On February 10 2014 07:31 Holy_AT wrote:Show nested quote +Also lmfao at the "Well maybe i'm just older and more mature than you young immature people who get mad at stuff", obviously paraphrased but that was how the end of your post came out. I am sorry, I did not want to imply such a thing, and I apologize. Somehow, I was just reminiscing about my old days in WoW where I was pretty hotheaded and that is an understatement. And I just thought that maybe I had lost something, some passion for the game or gaming in general, that I no longer posses nowadays. It was not meant as an insult to being immature.
Yet you still somehow consider "us" immature for not agreeing with you.
Wonder where's your maturity in this.
Finally yes, a business objective is to make money and if people buys this kudos to them I wouldn't hesitate a second if I could make money like this. We're just stating on this thread that it's too much for us and therefore won't pay because our confidence in such a company is broken. After that, only time will tell if it was a good move from their part (or we might never know actually), if they did in fact made more money like this or trying to be more friendly and welcome more players for a longer time and building a reputation.
(by us I mean I and a few other that won't buy it, there are actually some people here that enjoys the game and did preorder it).
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On February 10 2014 07:43 rezoacken wrote:Show nested quote +On February 10 2014 07:31 Holy_AT wrote:Also lmfao at the "Well maybe i'm just older and more mature than you young immature people who get mad at stuff", obviously paraphrased but that was how the end of your post came out. I am sorry, I did not want to imply such a thing, and I apologize. Somehow, I was just reminiscing about my old days in WoW where I was pretty hotheaded and that is an understatement. And I just thought that maybe I had lost something, some passion for the game or gaming in general, that I no longer posses nowadays. It was not meant as an insult to being immature. Yet you still somehow consider "us" immature for not agreeing with you. Wonder where's your maturity in this.
Give me a break here, will ya  , English is not my fist language nor is it spoken here on a regular basis and it is quite late here. So what I meant was I did not mean to insult anyone or call anyone immature.
Since some of my words were wrong, I at least hope you get the spirit of what I am trying to convey.
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On February 10 2014 06:40 Holy_AT wrote:
/snip
Uhm did you read the whole thread? Yes there are a lot of arguments like "uh subscription, bad game". I don't understand them either. But there are also a lot of good arguments with reasoning, sources and such. Also, in this situation, emotion driven posts can be very meaningful as it's often not a matter if someone is really ripped of or if he feels ripped of. If people feel ripped of en mass then there is something wrong.
On February 10 2014 07:31 Holy_AT wrote:Show nested quote +Also lmfao at the "Well maybe i'm just older and more mature than you young immature people who get mad at stuff", obviously paraphrased but that was how the end of your post came out. I am sorry, I did not want to imply such a thing, and I apologize. Somehow, I was just reminiscing about my old days in WoW where I was pretty hotheaded and that is an understatement. And I just thought that maybe I had lost something, some passion for the game or gaming in general, that I no longer posses nowadays. It was not meant as an insult to being immature.
It's not rare to lose passion if you grow older. However the topic about the payment model doesn't really have to do with passion about games in general but more with fair customer treatment. At the moment the gaming industry seems to be a step behind the other industries in that regard, but the customers seem to be behind as well as they let it go. It's important to discuss this topic because, whether or not this example is as worse as it can get, it sets ground for the future. And thus it should better not set a good ground for even bigger rip offs to become a standard in this industry.
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EXP boosts? I guess they are already preparing for F2P.
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@ Miragee, you made very good points and I think that I agree with you.
Although if I just take this game as a particular instance I don't really mind that much but the payment model but seeing things in a different scope and regarding the game again I really have to agree with you.
I don't really know the reasons for their decisions to go for these specific pre order or deluxe bonuses. Maybe it is really lets call it "greed" or maybe it is fear because they are afraid that the sales wont be that good so they have to milk the cash cow to break even. I think it is a very difficult process of finding the right payment model on a triple A mmorpg.
Having to pay for the game initially and on a per month bases I can see now why people see this as greedy and unnecessary. I'd also like to know if there are confirmed plans to have more *payable packs* like this after the release or if it is just the onetime release gig.
I normally don't buy deluxe editions (I made an exception for heart of the swarm) because the vanity stuff does not justify the extra 20€ (its about this sum in most of the cases) for me. If I pay more I want something extra and not just a pet or something like that unless I know that I am really going to play the game for a long time like Dota where I buy vanity stuff (but you cant really know that before the release). And in the case of ESO I really think that someone gets more out of the extra bucks of the deluxe edition than in other cases. I think its not really game breaking, but now I can see why it makes people upset.
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If anyone's planning on getting the Imperial Edition for any system, let me know - I'd like to buy one for the physical extras, which would leave me with a copy of the game to get rid of.
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Honestly, while EXP boosts are iffy, it doesn't bother me that much. It's nothing you can't acquire through questing I'm sure (GW2 gives you a ton of EXP boosts through various events and Hearts - then again I'm beginning to doubt ESO might give access to such items through the normal course of the game).
But no one can pretend that locking a race behind a paygate is vanity. If it were special skins for armor, mounts, weapons and what have you, sure. But it's an actual race. As a race, it has special racial traits etc. Now, I don't care if those traits are "your character can smoke weed", it's actual, solid content that is only given to those who want to spend more money than what the actual game costs. It leaves behind a taste of "I have to pay more than the actual game price to access the full game", which is not the least bit pleasant for a box price + sub-based game.
I've followed the ESO Reddit a bit, and people have asked Zenimax's reps about unlocking the Imperial race, and the answer was "one can purchase the CE at any time after release, thus unlocking the Imperial race". To be taken with a grain of salt, as reps usually hardly know anything and have only been told so much. Still though, there are many things that are making the game look bleak to me, at least right now:
- CE edition with paygated content that isn't just vanity
- $60 box price + $15 sub fee (once again, you can only have access to all races if you buy the CE, or so it seems)
- Cash shop (which has at least the upgrade to the CE included in it, that's about all we know so far)
- Content of sub-par quality (that one is obviously a bit subjective, but the feedback I've received about the game play itself is mostly negative)
- Game is still under a tight NDA, even though it is 2 months away from release (this at least makes things look bad to some, but doesn't have to be all that meaningful)
I'm sure I'm forgetting some, but I just don't see how people can be in awe of the game when there is definitely a handful of potential problems arising already.
edit: Oh, and also, even if you can unlock the Imperial race through normal game play, it would still turn out to be a giant lie, because the CE clearly says "exclusive collection of digital content", heavily implying that only those who purchase the CE will have access to said content. Now, the phrasing obviously leaves them some wiggle room, as it doesn't absolutely clearly say that only CE owners will get it, but even still, it would be an incredibly shady move.
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As a side note I still wonder why every MMO lately still ask for exactly 15$ a month. I mean that figure dates back to EQ (or earlier maybe I dont know).
I have a hard time believing it is a required cost per player to cover maintenance and patch development in 2014 when we have many F2P and B2P models around. Not gonna mention you still pay the base game, the expansions and apparently cash shop cosmetics and some services (transfer, sex change etc). Why hasn't been there more experimentations at 10 or 5 ? Is it just not enough to survive or is it only an unspoken will to maintain the status quo so that MMO sellers don't undercut each others ?
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I just learned that you can do /lute
Definitely buying this game now
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On February 10 2014 09:05 rezoacken wrote:
As a side note I still wonder why every MMO lately still ask for exactly 15$ a month. I mean that figure dates back to EQ (or earlier maybe I dont know).
I have a hard time believing it is a required cost per player to cover maintenance and patch development in 2014 when we have many F2P and B2P models around. Not gonna mention you still pay the base game, the expansions and apparently cash shop cosmetics and some services (transfer, sex change etc). Why hasn't been there more experimentations at 10 or 5 ? Is it just not enough to survive or is it only an unspoken will to maintain the status quo so that MMO sellers don't undercut each others ?
Probably because the number of people willing to pay 10 but not 15 is very low. 5 Will probably be bigger but that gives low income unless your also adding a cash shop.
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Just saw that angryjoe already used his allowed 15min of video for the game :
+ Show Spoiler +
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I'm not sure what Joe basis this game having 'tons of content' when he only reached level 6. I'm not saying the game lacks content, I'm not yet sure what it's like yet because we have no real idea where the game is going passed some early levels.
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EPT
