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Gummy
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
United States2180 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-05-31 18:21:08
May 31 2012 17:02 GMT
#701
On June 01 2012 00:33 BrTarolg wrote:
There's a lot to be said about making a vita deck full of size 1's and using passcode + AoE buffs / debuffs, throwing in a few hitters (gart, sita etc.) with it if you're looking for a cheap route

Lib ace is great, you can always shove in iri, and replace some of your weaker followers with the better vita ones and focus more on the vita buffs

So there's two curves for which passcode is effective. One is a lot of size 1's. The other is a lot of size 3's. Passcode counts itself into its activation condition. So if you have, say, 2 ep5 33s and passcode, it drops a +3/+3 on both of the followers, with additional space to drop a size 1 buff or a size 1 follower.

This is why I never don't run 3 passcodes in my deck, regardless of faction.

Also, I think I've come up with a semi-decent vita-based deck. I am quite worried about how it might fare against a strong academy deck, and need to get a better feel for how acad plays so I can implement appropriate countermeasures. Anybody wanna run a few practice games with me?
¯\_(ツ)_/¯ There are three kinds of people in the world: those who can count and those who can't.
Cel.erity
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
United States4890 Posts
May 31 2012 18:39 GMT
#702
On June 01 2012 01:34 BrTarolg wrote:
Balance is pretty pro for dungeons, and it's cheap to make


Balance is only good until your deck is good. It doesn't really help you win any faster, unless you're vs a 50life opponent and you get it early. Since the goal should be to win quickly, Balance isn't really worth playing unless you're struggling to win at all. I would say Shrink and Over the Wall are way more important to prioritize as spells. Then the best Vita DR is One Way Trip. After that (and Library Ace), worry about more rare followers.
We found Dove in a soapless place.
JSH
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
United States4109 Posts
May 31 2012 18:52 GMT
#703
sounds good
Thanks to everyone who offered advice

And I just realized, why is it called Kouhai instead of Hubae
It is Korean is it not

"It's called a miracle because it doesn't happen" - Just like my chances of reaching C- on ICCUP
Shigure
Profile Blog Joined September 2009
United States215 Posts
May 31 2012 18:56 GMT
#704
It is korean made but the cards are by japanese honorifics for some reason.
Iam the mod in KawaiiRice's stream, banning you
Resisty
Profile Joined December 2011
United States375 Posts
May 31 2012 19:04 GMT
#705
The Exam Hall boss has a Chinese name but wears Japanese clothes x_x
Humans are greedy, therefore they are human.
nosliw
Profile Blog Joined December 2008
United States2716 Posts
June 01 2012 18:49 GMT
#706
The company is Chinese company in the about us section.
Cel.erity
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
United States4890 Posts
June 01 2012 20:50 GMT
#707
It's a Korean game, but ChangYou is a Chinese company that hosts the MMO's.
We found Dove in a soapless place.
BrTarolg
Profile Blog Joined June 2009
United Kingdom3574 Posts
June 01 2012 20:52 GMT
#708
On June 01 2012 03:39 Cel.erity wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 01 2012 01:34 BrTarolg wrote:
Balance is pretty pro for dungeons, and it's cheap to make


Balance is only good until your deck is good. It doesn't really help you win any faster, unless you're vs a 50life opponent


You just like arguing with everything? D:

Literally like you just shuffle for it on first turn vs any boss and it pretty much garuantees you a win

Theres no reason not to run it
Cel.erity
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
United States4890 Posts
June 01 2012 21:01 GMT
#709
So? That's why I said vs 50life opponents. There's no reason to run it for normal grinding, or to bother trying to craft it quickly.

I only argue so much because you give so much bad advice on these forums.
We found Dove in a soapless place.
nosliw
Profile Blog Joined December 2008
United States2716 Posts
June 01 2012 21:33 GMT
#710
Balance just make both 40 life on turn 1, so how does that make you win?
Gummy
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
United States2180 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-06-02 00:33:50
June 02 2012 00:02 GMT
#711
On June 02 2012 06:33 nosliw wrote:
Balance just make both 40 life on turn 1, so how does that make you win?

So you gain 10 life. Boss loses 10 life. There is no single other card that can generate a 20 life swing for 2 size.


On June 02 2012 06:01 Cel.erity wrote:
So? That's why I said vs 50life opponents. There's no reason to run it for normal grinding, or to bother trying to craft it quickly.

I only argue so much because you give so much bad advice on these forums.


I think it's literally the most powerful card you can get against a dungeon boss, though you should never use it until your opponent has 50 life. It's also pretty good in PvP. And it's the cheapest double rare that there is.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯ There are three kinds of people in the world: those who can count and those who can't.
Cel.erity
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
United States4890 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-06-02 00:37:31
June 02 2012 00:35 GMT
#712
Yeah it's especially good versus the ep4-5 bosses who burn you out, and it is fairly cheap to craft compared to most DRs. However it is a spell that a.) you don't want in your deck until the boss fight, b.) isn't even good unless you have it in your opener/shuffle to it, c.) will become obsolete once your deck is good (I only side it vs aforementioned bosses, and rarely need it). Therefore, I don't think it is good advice to tell somebody to forsake upgrading everything else in their deck to craft it. For the cost, you can craft a rare follower, or 2x Over the Wall, which is a better card in virtually every sense and will be played for all 30 floors instead of just 1.

Basically I don't like advising casual players to spend days/a week grinding out a card only to discover that it's useless 98% of the time.
We found Dove in a soapless place.
Gummy
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
United States2180 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-06-02 02:05:30
June 02 2012 00:47 GMT
#713
On June 02 2012 09:35 Cel.erity wrote:
Yeah it's especially good versus the ep4-5 bosses who burn you out, and it is fairly cheap to craft compared to most DRs. However it is a spell that a.) you don't want in your deck until the boss fight, b.) isn't even good unless you have it in your opener/shuffle to it, c.) will become obsolete once your deck is good (I only side it vs aforementioned bosses, and rarely need it). Therefore, I don't think it is good advice to tell somebody to forsake upgrading everything else in their deck to craft it. For the cost, you can craft a rare follower, or 2x Over the Wall, which is a better card in virtually every sense and will be played for all 30 floors instead of just 1.

Basically I don't like advising casual players to spend days/a week grinding out a card only to discover that it's useless 98% of the time.


Well of course, it's good to get your core cards in place first. Building your deck greedily, that is going for cards that are most effective for PvE per material cost, would make any double rare card essentially never worth getting, since the buffs are only stronger than their common/uncommon counterparts in specific situations, the stall is worthless, and the removal/debuff is entirely unnecessary. So given that caveat, balance being the cheapest double rare and being the most effective double rare for those boss fights (which give you more mats than the rest of the dungeon combined) isn't a terrible recommendation.

I don't think Brtarolg was trying to say "rush balance. It's the best card in the game and you auto-win with it." I think he was saying "if you can afford a balance, after getting the core cards you need for your deck, get it, since it essentially guarantees you victory even against the toughest bosses, presuming you draw it or can shuffle it in the first two turns." Particularly against vampy or lig nig, that 20 life swing buys you, conservatively, 4-5 turns to work with before you get burnt to death. At the very least, it's 10 damage for size 2.



Also, @Resisty, the troll deck could be moderately successful in the current ladder.
The theme would be something like:

1.) Get Child Sigma or Child Levateinn
Turn 1: Hope they're try to snowball. Lock up their field with a bondage or two.
Turn 2: Drop layna or any other follower that can tank for a few turns, but who have relatively low attack. Leave slot 1 empty.
Turn 3-5: sky surprise some tea-time followers to your opponent, while dropping amnesia on your side of the field if you need to clear problematic abilities.
Turn 6-> end, press ready.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯ There are three kinds of people in the world: those who can count and those who can't.
Cel.erity
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
United States4890 Posts
June 02 2012 00:59 GMT
#714
On June 02 2012 09:47 Gummy wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 02 2012 09:35 Cel.erity wrote:
Yeah it's especially good versus the ep4-5 bosses who burn you out, and it is fairly cheap to craft compared to most DRs. However it is a spell that a.) you don't want in your deck until the boss fight, b.) isn't even good unless you have it in your opener/shuffle to it, c.) will become obsolete once your deck is good (I only side it vs aforementioned bosses, and rarely need it). Therefore, I don't think it is good advice to tell somebody to forsake upgrading everything else in their deck to craft it. For the cost, you can craft a rare follower, or 2x Over the Wall, which is a better card in virtually every sense and will be played for all 30 floors instead of just 1.

Basically I don't like advising casual players to spend days/a week grinding out a card only to discover that it's useless 98% of the time.


Well of course, it's good to get your core cards in place first. Building your deck greedily, that is going for cards that are most effective for PvE per material cost, would make any double rare card essentially never worth getting, since the buffs are only stronger than their common/uncommon counterparts in specific situations, the stall is worthless, and the removal/debuff is entirely unnecessary. So given that caveat, balance being the cheapest double rare and being the most effective double rare for those boss fights (which give you more mats than the rest of the dungeon combined) isn't a terrible recommendation.

I don't think Brtarolg was trying to say "rush balance. It's the best card in the game and you auto-win with it." I think he was saying "if you can afford a balance, after getting the core cards you need for your deck, get it, since it essentially guarantees you victory even against the toughest bosses, presuming you draw it or can shuffle it in the first two turns." Particularly against vampy or lig nig, that 20 life swing buys you, conservatively, 4-5 turns to work with before you get burnt to death.


I agree with everything you said.

That wasn't his advice though. The question was "what should I be heading for, upgrade my followers? Double rares?" and the answer was "Balance is pretty pro and good for dungeons". If you looked at the decklist, he just started out; the list is unrefined. He should upgrade his core spells and followers before going for Balance. You know this, BrTarolg probably also knows this, but that's not the way the advice was framed.

A new player comes to this thread and reads the posts here, sees BrTarolg posts a lot, assumes he knows what he's talking about, so he follows the advice and grinds out a Balance for days. Then he gets disappointed and unhappy with the game because the card isn't what he expected. As someone who has guided players in games for a large portion of my life, it really bothers me to see bad advice given with no qualifiers in this fashion, and this thread isn't moderated in the same way the SC2 strategy section is. I try to dispel stuff like this as quickly as possible so that new players will not become frustrated by bad advice.
We found Dove in a soapless place.
Gummy
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
United States2180 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-06-02 09:05:45
June 02 2012 02:53 GMT
#715
Also, for vita decks, I'm having a lot of success running passcode and meadow leisure (which are dirt dirt cheap to craft and off-faction so you can conserve your green ores for followers). While not strictly as strong as over the wall or uniform tweak in proper setups, these cards can be played much more flexibly given a decent deck construction (passcode thrives on 1/3 size follower decks). Anyway, here are my thoughts on some commonly used Vita cards:

Wall Climb

Continuing the discussion about meadow leisure: for wall climb (korean name for "over the wall") to out-buff meadow leisure, for example, you need a low size follower in size 1, and two high size followers in slots 2 and 4. If you have a 1-3 curve for passcode, this works out fine, since you can go:

I : Size 1 follower
II: Size 3 follower
III: Wall climb
IV: Size 3 follower

for a +6/+6 in slot 5. Size 4 cards are ideal for wall climb, but they significantly screw with your ability to play vita as it should be played.

Either you get sizelocked or you have to leave 2 slots empty, unless you want a 50% or more chance of your buff totally fizzling. Any control or auxilliary removal, therefore, is unplayable with the hand, while the marginal cost on a meadow leisure is only (at worst) a lost of a +1/+1.



Uniform tweak

Uniform tweak is, objectively, an incredible spell. My only qualm about playing it is the faction specificity, which makes it less compatible with some of the multi-faction metagame facilitated by episodes 5 and 6. (Chiefly by the imba episode 5 characters and the insanely powerful and common[!] multi-faction spells in episode 6. Also, the only legitimate/reliable "control" card in the game is Night's Beckoning, which requires multifaction shenanigans).

For reference, these are the followers you'll typically want to hit with uniform tweak:
Link

Absent from this list, for example, are some indispensable cards such as battlefield sita and amnesia-inducing lotte among others, whose base defenses are not high enough to warrant the use of this size 2 spell in place of another. Passcode, for example, for 1 extra size (which doesn't hurt you any in a 1/3 curve... unless you run meadow leisure!) gives +3//3 to two followers instead of +2//0.

Alternatively, you can play uniform tweak subsequent a buffing spell like beach research, but typically you never need that second set of buffs against dungeons and overbuffing leaves you vulnerable to either decking out or getting swapped.



Shrink

I don't understand the point of shrink, tbh, in PvE. If you set up properly and have decent control on the field, then all you're really doing is reducing the amount of damage an enemy follower does to the enemy character when it dies. If an enemy follower gets out of hand, a much more powerful targeted debuff is the episode 5 card "misfit" which targets ALL enemy followers that meet a certain atk/sta threshold irrespective of their size. This is a big deal on some of the bosses, like vampire god, that run kana. It also combos very nicely with a 1/3 vita curve. Misfit + an ep 5 rare, rosie, or layna clears the field of any NPC and most human players as well (even without the darklore char bonus).

Shrink, I've found, often gets subverted by a random freshly played 5-drop.

The downside of misfit is that it only targets those enemy heroes that meet the 22 threshold. But how hard is it to kill a follower that has less than 22 atk+sta? Not hard at all.

You only run into a tiny bit of trouble with a 1/3 deck in the 8-10atk and 11-13 sta range. These dudes don't get 1hko'd by unbuffed size5 followers and can take them out immediately with unfortunate sequencing. Fortunately, it's a very tiny range

Any less atk or any less stam, and they get stomped on by the ep5 rares.

Shrink, however, DOES have the advantage of
1.) Always hitting SOMETHING so long as enemy followers remain on the field.
2.) Dealing the fatal blow (not to be confused with the DL double rare) on an intransigent high size sta=1 enemy follower.

My major and continuing issue with it, however, is the same argument you have against balance in that it doesn't help you win any faster. Furthermore, though, I think even what it does do, there are other cards that do it better. (Misfit/lago/meteor call/morals crackdown/etc., for size-targeted removal try "curse of distrust" or arrest)

I wish swogitools or swordgirls.info had legitimate notes or discussion for each card with reference to competitive viability and comparison to other similar cards. Right now, a lot of even elementary insights are extremely hard to come by, and the relative quality of play, I'd say, is pretty low as a result. I don't see a lot of people iteratively building upon the ideas of others, since the thought processes that went into decks, including particular card choices as opposed to others, is not as well documented as it could be.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯ There are three kinds of people in the world: those who can count and those who can't.
BrTarolg
Profile Blog Joined June 2009
United Kingdom3574 Posts
June 02 2012 10:17 GMT
#716
God dammit

DP is too high this round, it's such a swingfest

A good deck can only get a high win %age this round, but it will be nothing like winning 9/10 games like last round because theres so much swing

I should be able to score a 70-80% winrate though, i've evened out /60%'ed most of the top decks so hopefully cross fingers

I might have to pay2win a coin ladhy though :X
boon2537
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
United States905 Posts
June 02 2012 11:33 GMT
#717
Argh. I have so much grinding to do if I wanna try out my new academy deck (which may or may not work) on ladder.
Here's my grinding list
- 1 ruin run to finally get my first DR, mass recall.
- 9 Lingni runs
- 3 vita school runs to get the push forward card. Alternatively, I can get El Mundo with all my left over blood which would save me some time. But, in my opinion, push forward is way better in term of keeping your follower alive via a great attack debuff and it also hits 2 followers.

Thank god I have Red Bull Battlegrounds and some Dota 2 vods to keep me entertained.

Do you guys have any epic grind campaign for this ladder?
Nytefish
Profile Blog Joined December 2007
United Kingdom4282 Posts
June 02 2012 11:44 GMT
#718
This ladder starts just as my final year exams do so I won't be preparing for it.
I'm currently grinding out d.rares for every episode. I have most of the dungeon materials but not many cat dolls/books.
No I'm never serious.
Cel.erity
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
United States4890 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-06-02 14:25:51
June 02 2012 14:05 GMT
#719
On June 02 2012 20:33 boon2537 wrote:
Argh. I have so much grinding to do if I wanna try out my new academy deck (which may or may not work) on ladder.
Here's my grinding list
- 1 ruin run to finally get my first DR, mass recall.
- 9 Lingni runs
- 3 vita school runs to get the push forward card. Alternatively, I can get El Mundo with all my left over blood which would save me some time. But, in my opinion, push forward is way better in term of keeping your follower alive via a great attack debuff and it also hits 2 followers.

Thank god I have Red Bull Battlegrounds and some Dota 2 vods to keep me entertained.

Do you guys have any epic grind campaign for this ladder?


Yeah, I need 3 ep6 DRs for one of my decks, so it's a lot of grinding in the school. Glad that the cat dolls are so low though, means that I already have the accessories. All episodes in the future are going to use completely different materials.

Edit: Oh, about Shrink. I think it's the best thing for Vita to get when first starting out, because it's incredibly cheap to make and it makes fights for a weak deck much easier. Misfit is pretty awful because most NPCs don't snowball at all, and the only time it will ever turn on is vs Reverse Defense, but then Shrink will reduce the atk/sta by a lot more. How can you possibly play Misfit in a non-DL deck? You'd need Misfit+Layna+nothing for it to make any sense, and that's just not a productive turn.

Lago de Cisnes is clearly better, but it's a DR.

Meteor Swarm and Morals Crackdown don't kill Reverse Defense followers so they're useless.

That basically leaves Shrink, Arrest, and Curse of Mistrust as the only spells that do what you want them to. However, Curse of Mistrust takes away from your field unnecessarily, and Arrest has more challenging mats. Shrink has very easy mats and is also the best of these cards in PVP (debatable, but certainly more universal). I could see going for Arrest if you've already got your Ace, but meh, it's size 3 and doesn't answer Battle Sita or Vampire Hunter Iri.
We found Dove in a soapless place.
BrTarolg
Profile Blog Joined June 2009
United Kingdom3574 Posts
June 02 2012 15:06 GMT
#720
clarice's attendant, a 3 pt also works.....
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