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On January 17 2012 06:22 stork4ever wrote:
Penny in no way ever reached his peak, maybe we got a sneak peek when Shaq left but even then he was planning some kind of coup for the coach. Penny played second fiddle to Shaq and they went to the championship, and technically was the last team to beat the MJ Bulls (baseball be damned!). But this is not about Penny, he was hyped by everyone, even Jordan.
Chris Paul has great stats, he has been my keeper in my fantasy team since his rookie year, he has won me two fantasy leagues just by himself. But in terms of results, he is lacking, especially when you are going to compare him with MVP's, championship runs, and other awards, he has...rookie of the year.
My point is that to be an All Time Great, you need some sort of results, maybe Paul will have most triple doubles or some NBA championship but right now he is just another great pg in a league with other great pg's (Rose has a MVP and is looking to gear up for a championship run). I don't disagree that Paul is a great player and its not like I'm not giving him any credit, but you are comparing with the All Time Great point guards in the league, and in this league there are tons of great players, you need results to separate yourself from them.
I've said this already - we aren't talking about team accomplishments. Championships are irrelevant here. MVPs don't mean anything either. Read the thread.
On January 17 2012 06:27 slyboogie wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2012 05:28 Ace wrote:On January 17 2012 04:10 stork4ever wrote:On January 16 2012 09:55 Ace wrote:
Um yes really. Even Stockton wasn't as good as Chris Paul. Same goes for Payton, Nash and even Kidd who is also one of the best of all time. Really, Chris Paul is in the Magic Johnson/Isaiah Thomas discussion.
You guys are probably taking longevity into account where as I'm talking about basketball skills here. Penny Hardaway was in the Magic Johnson/Michael Jordan discussion, look where he is now (btw I'm his #1 fan, I once spent 250 on his shoes). Everyone you listed either has a MVP or has gone to the NBA championship sans one. There are also assist leaders, defensive player of the year, and players that gave Micheal Jordan a run for his money. There is also a player with flashy stats. Basketball skills translate to wins and numbers. Paul is good, he is fast and has good court vision but so is Rose and Deron Williams. Kidd has some good D (I'm a Laker fan) and he has adapted to every team and his age. Payton was a defensive player of the year in an era dominated by big man (RAIN MAN, Ewing). Nash, two time MVP, I don't agree with it but he has it. Stockton is the point guard every high school coach wants his players to mimic, he is just damn good. Give Paul time before you start putting him on the level of legendary point guards that have proved themselves. Rose and Deron will be there with him, Penny was never in the discussion. He was good, really good. But he wasn't All Time good. If anyone was putting Penny on the level of Magic Johnson they were hyping him up too far. Penny even at his peak wasn't the all around dominant player that most guys in the convo get to. Chris Paul is going into his 7th year. I mean let's stop and think about this for a bit because I don't want to keep going over this: He's in his prime. He was already really good as a rookie, then in his third year he made a leap so big that at the time he was in the Isaiah/Magic discussion. He repeated it again the very next year. Then he got hurt while still putting up numbers most people would kill for. Then he came back not 100% with less explosive speed than before but still retained the Point Guard crown. He was doing this for years with David West as his best offensive player, and a solid defense in New Orleans. He wasn't playing on stacked teams like some other guys and showed he could still play at top 5 level in the NBA while playing on a slow paced team AND having criminally low usage rates. His 2 best years in terms of scoring he had 25.7 and a 27.5 usage rate, which for comparison don't even match Penny's best years in usage rate but his production still blows him out of the water. Now if you want to argue that Chris Paul shouldn't be in the discussion come up with something a little more substantial than some subjective measurement on when we should start giving guys credit. He shouldn't be considered an all-timer unless you also consider Isaiah Thomas an all-timer. Isaiah Thomas was one of the best players in the NBA when he was young. However, old Isaiah was, simply not the same player. His efficiency dropped across the board, he was less effective. He still had a long career, a Hall of Fame career but I think you'd agree that he was never the 84' and 85' Isaiah for very long. The fact is, Chris Paul's 2010 was an injury year, he played like 40 games. He was NOT the same player in 2011 as he was in 2008. That's just a fact. He lost tons of speed and tons of explosiveness. Is it gone forever? Nobody knows. Some of it has certainly recovered in 2012. But he still isn't producing like he was in 2008. Sorry. He's gone from definitive top 10 player ever and possibly 2nd best point guard ever to guaranteed hall-of-famer.
I do consider Isaiah an All-Timer. Also you do realize that CP3's after injury numbers are still better than most people's career years right? He's THAT good. We aren't comparing Chris Paul to himself - we are comparing him to everyone else.
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I've said this already - we aren't talking about team accomplishments. Championships are irrelevant here. MVPs don't mean anything either. Read the thread.
I see, I'm being trolled. Go Lakers.
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Yeah, most people. But not all people. Like the TOP 10 PLAYERS EVER! No but really, he just wasn't that level in 2010. He was simply brilliant, not unique. So he needs to prove that he can keep doing what he did in 2008-2009. Yes, I'm comparing him to himself. But 2008 Chris Paul was, literally, a historic player. As in, Magic Johnson had to look up his best year to say he was better.
I know what you're saying. You're saying that he was the one of the best ever and 2007-2009 show that. And he's so great that even 2010-2012 show that. That's fine. But that's two different careers. The reality is, that knee injury probably took 2 season of 2008 Chris Paul from him and he needs that to be considered a top-10 or 15 player.
I mean, he's transformed enough to still get there. His assist rate has dropped a lot but his TO% is lower and his usage is less. And he's bumped his efficiency. I love Chris Paul.
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On January 17 2012 06:58 slyboogie wrote:
Yeah, most people. But not all people. Like the TOP 10 PLAYERS EVER! No but really, he just wasn't that level in 2010. He was simply brilliant, not unique. So he needs to prove that he can keep doing what he did in 2008-2009. Yes, I'm comparing him to himself. But 2008 Chris Paul was, literally, a historic player. As in, Magic Johnson had to look up his best year to say he was better.
I know what you're saying. You're saying that he was the one of the best ever and 2007-2009 show that. And he's so great that even 2010-2012 show that. That's fine. But that's two different careers. The reality is, that knee injury probably took 2 season of 2008 Chris Paul from him and he needs that to be considered a top-10 or 15 player.
I mean, he's transformed enough to still get there. His assist rate has dropped a lot but his TO% is lower and his usage is less. And he's bumped his efficiency. I love Chris Paul.
CP is great and all, but he seems to be able to be shut down (or at least outplayed) when he goes against other elite talents.
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Osaka27173 Posts
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wow didnt know the games were so early today. I guess its a good thing since I didnt witness the bulls losing. Also, my theory lives on, every time I dont watch a bulls game, they lose.
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On January 17 2012 08:39 iLoveKT wrote:
wow didnt know the games were so early today. I guess its a good thing since I didnt witness the bulls losing. Also, my theory lives on, every time I dont watch a bulls game, they lose.
Rose also didn't play.
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Derek Fisher is such a badass cold-blodded killer. Not a good game though.
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Who doesn't love the fish? Such a humble guy who always gives credit to everyone
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The schedule makes the games really bad -_-
Really lucky win by the lakers, but who cares mavs will sweep them again in the playoffs.
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D-FISH!!!
That was an ugly ass game, I'm glad the Lakers pulled through. It's still sad to see LO in a Mavericks Jersey. I miss that guy.
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thank you for this. I really think hes been playing bad basketball. Unless you plan on taking every shot, you cannot play like he is.
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He seems to understand the complexity of the Kobe phenomenon though as most who watch him should.
Can he be a selfish player who takes too many shots to the detriment of the rest of his team's offense? Yes.
Does the lack of a REAL point guard hamper the rest of the team's ability to flow on offense? Yes.
Can he carry the offensive load and win games single handedly? Absolutely.
Are Pau Gasol and Andrew Bynum good enough for him to rely on? Maybe.
There is no easy answer with Kobe. Even someone who admits to hating him when they watch the team carefully has to admit that.
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On January 17 2012 07:02 cLutZ wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2012 06:58 slyboogie wrote:
Yeah, most people. But not all people. Like the TOP 10 PLAYERS EVER! No but really, he just wasn't that level in 2010. He was simply brilliant, not unique. So he needs to prove that he can keep doing what he did in 2008-2009. Yes, I'm comparing him to himself. But 2008 Chris Paul was, literally, a historic player. As in, Magic Johnson had to look up his best year to say he was better.
I know what you're saying. You're saying that he was the one of the best ever and 2007-2009 show that. And he's so great that even 2010-2012 show that. That's fine. But that's two different careers. The reality is, that knee injury probably took 2 season of 2008 Chris Paul from him and he needs that to be considered a top-10 or 15 player.
I mean, he's transformed enough to still get there. His assist rate has dropped a lot but his TO% is lower and his usage is less. And he's bumped his efficiency. I love Chris Paul. CP is great and all, but he seems to be able to be shut down (or at least outplayed) when he goes against other elite talents.
What the fuck? Did you see him in the playoffs last year?
Lets not act like NO had a great team. He had David West (who didnt play in the playoffs last season).
Paul actually is better in the playoffs than the regular season.
http://www.nba.com/playerfile/chris_paul/career_stats.html
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US Olympic Team 2012 is stacked more than gsl code S.
Guards – Kobe Bryant, Derrick Rose, Chauncey Billups, Chris Paul, Deron Williams, Russell Westbrook, Eric Gordon and Dwyane Wade.
Forwards – Kevin Durant, LeBron James, Andre Iguodala, Carmelo Anthony, Rudy Gay, LaMarcus Aldridge, Lamar Odom, Blake Griffin, Chris Bosh and Kevin Love.
Centers – Dwight Howard and Tyson Chandler.
I would take current Bynum instead of Chandler and maybe Curry for Billups. But that are realy tough calls.
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Kobe should sit out for health reasons. They should also cut chauncey because he's just not that good anymore
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On January 17 2012 17:02 jmbthirteen wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2012 07:02 cLutZ wrote:On January 17 2012 06:58 slyboogie wrote:
Yeah, most people. But not all people. Like the TOP 10 PLAYERS EVER! No but really, he just wasn't that level in 2010. He was simply brilliant, not unique. So he needs to prove that he can keep doing what he did in 2008-2009. Yes, I'm comparing him to himself. But 2008 Chris Paul was, literally, a historic player. As in, Magic Johnson had to look up his best year to say he was better.
I know what you're saying. You're saying that he was the one of the best ever and 2007-2009 show that. And he's so great that even 2010-2012 show that. That's fine. But that's two different careers. The reality is, that knee injury probably took 2 season of 2008 Chris Paul from him and he needs that to be considered a top-10 or 15 player.
I mean, he's transformed enough to still get there. His assist rate has dropped a lot but his TO% is lower and his usage is less. And he's bumped his efficiency. I love Chris Paul. CP is great and all, but he seems to be able to be shut down (or at least outplayed) when he goes against other elite talents. What the fuck? Did you see him in the playoffs last year? Lets not act like NO had a great team. He had David West (who didnt play in the playoffs last season). Paul actually is better in the playoffs than the regular season. http://www.nba.com/playerfile/chris_paul/career_stats.html
Did you watch the Clippers play the Bulls? Last year against the Heat? Previous years against the Jazz?
Also, WTF is with the Clippers' schedule? 10 games?
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On January 18 2012 00:45 KOFgokuon wrote:
Kobe should sit out for health reasons. They should also cut chauncey because he's just not that good anymore
The starting lineup for the Clippers (CP3, Blake Griffin, Chauncey Billups, Caron Butler & DeAndre Jordan) might be the best starting 5 in the NBA.. Billups isn't as good as he used to be, that's what happens when you get older, but he's still a brilliant player who'd get spot in p.much any NBA team this season
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On January 18 2012 00:55 cLutZ wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2012 17:02 jmbthirteen wrote:On January 17 2012 07:02 cLutZ wrote:On January 17 2012 06:58 slyboogie wrote:
Yeah, most people. But not all people. Like the TOP 10 PLAYERS EVER! No but really, he just wasn't that level in 2010. He was simply brilliant, not unique. So he needs to prove that he can keep doing what he did in 2008-2009. Yes, I'm comparing him to himself. But 2008 Chris Paul was, literally, a historic player. As in, Magic Johnson had to look up his best year to say he was better.
I know what you're saying. You're saying that he was the one of the best ever and 2007-2009 show that. And he's so great that even 2010-2012 show that. That's fine. But that's two different careers. The reality is, that knee injury probably took 2 season of 2008 Chris Paul from him and he needs that to be considered a top-10 or 15 player.
I mean, he's transformed enough to still get there. His assist rate has dropped a lot but his TO% is lower and his usage is less. And he's bumped his efficiency. I love Chris Paul. CP is great and all, but he seems to be able to be shut down (or at least outplayed) when he goes against other elite talents. What the fuck? Did you see him in the playoffs last year? Lets not act like NO had a great team. He had David West (who didnt play in the playoffs last season). Paul actually is better in the playoffs than the regular season. http://www.nba.com/playerfile/chris_paul/career_stats.html Did you watch the Clippers play the Bulls? Last year against the Heat? Previous years against the Jazz? Also, WTF is with the Clippers' schedule? 10 games?
Yeah, chris paul had 15 points and 14 rebounds and shot 50%. Horrible game right? It was his third regular season game with the clippers too. What about his games vs the Heat and Lakers this season? Pretty damn good if you ask me.
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EPT
