EPTNBA Regular Season 2011-2012 - Page 84
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Perseverance
Japan2800 Posts
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Ace
United States16096 Posts
You guys are probably taking longevity into account where as I'm talking about basketball skills here. | ||
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cLutZ
United States19574 Posts
On January 16 2012 09:55 Ace wrote: Um yes really. Even Stockton wasn't as good as Chris Paul. Same goes for Payton, Nash and even Kidd who is also one of the best of all time. Really, Chris Paul is in the Magic Johnson/Isaiah Thomas discussion. You guys are probably taking longevity into account where as I'm talking about basketball skills here. Chris Paul is really good, but something weird is going on with him. Its a freaky New Orleans thing, but he is the Drew Brees of the NBA. In other words, I have an irrational dislike of the player's skillset that is occasionally right and occasionally wrong. | ||
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Ace
United States16096 Posts
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cLutZ
United States19574 Posts
On January 16 2012 11:22 Ace wrote: What's wrong with his skill set? No idea, my hate is irrational and only comes out when I see him play. | ||
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hipsterHobbit
United States218 Posts
On January 16 2012 09:55 Ace wrote: Um yes really. Even Stockton wasn't as good as Chris Paul. Same goes for Payton, Nash and even Kidd who is also one of the best of all time. Really, Chris Paul is in the Magic Johnson/Isaiah Thomas discussion. You guys are probably taking longevity into account where as I'm talking about basketball skills here. ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/3UVay.gif) Kidd is good, but he got abused quite a few times in the playoffs against those guys. Wade and Kobe in particular turned him into a traffic cone. What in the hell??? Kidd's defense on Kobe, Durant, and Wade was instrumental to our success in the playoffs last year. Clutch stop after clutch steal vs guys 10 years younger and 4 inches taller than him. You need to stop talking about basketball and go watch more or read about it... play it... something!!! | ||
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hipsterHobbit
United States218 Posts
LOL, Ace, you are just pulling shit out of your ass dude. Wow I hope nobody takes you seriously. | ||
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slyboogie
United States3423 Posts
On January 16 2012 12:37 hipsterHobbit wrote: And you said some bullshit about Kevin Garnett being one of the premier players in the league, a level above dwight howard because of his playoff performances OF ALL THINGS? LOL, Ace, you are just pulling shit out of your ass dude. Wow I hope nobody takes you seriously. He's not talking about today. He's talking about players that they've seen. And Kevin Garnett is one of the best players in history. EDIT: That he's ever seen | ||
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Ack1027
United States7873 Posts
I'm not sure I'll be able to enjoy this thread anymore when playoffs start and same shit happens again as last year where every call against the bulls is a national tragedy and durant and d.rose unrealistic nuthuggers come out in swarms =/ Predictions on how far spurs go this short season? | ||
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cLutZ
United States19574 Posts
On January 16 2012 13:38 Ack1027 wrote: Every time this thread starts getting somewhere good it gets disrupted by some DERRICK ROSE #1 ETERNITY shit, its really annoying. I'm not sure I'll be able to enjoy this thread anymore when playoffs start and same shit happens again as last year where every call against the bulls is a national tragedy and durant and d.rose unrealistic nuthuggers come out in swarms =/ Predictions on how far spurs go this short season? 4 Seed. 2nd round exit. By the way, the Bulls and the Heat are both very referee-dependent teams, so the outcome of the Bulls-Heat series, if there is one, could very well turn on the refereeing of the games. | ||
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RowdierBob
Australia13537 Posts
But nonetheless, TWolves KG is def one of top players of his generation. His offensive production dropped off a bit at the Celts (he didn't really need to be a volume scorer anyway with Pierce and Ray Ray) but he's always consistently been one of the NBA's best defenders. Garnett is easily a better and more accomplished player overall. If you had to take a player today, you'd obviously take D12, but prime Garnett is easily better than D12. Maybe that will change, but as of now it's not close for me. | ||
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VENDIZ
1575 Posts
Good to see CJ back though! Edit: LOL, even Noah's hook looks awkward :p Edit #2: This is going to be exactly like the Bulls vs. Hawks game.. :\ | ||
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manicsquare
176 Posts
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stork4ever
United States1036 Posts
On January 16 2012 09:55 Ace wrote: Um yes really. Even Stockton wasn't as good as Chris Paul. Same goes for Payton, Nash and even Kidd who is also one of the best of all time. Really, Chris Paul is in the Magic Johnson/Isaiah Thomas discussion. You guys are probably taking longevity into account where as I'm talking about basketball skills here. Penny Hardaway was in the Magic Johnson/Michael Jordan discussion, look where he is now (btw I'm his #1 fan, I once spent 250 on his shoes). Everyone you listed either has a MVP or has gone to the NBA championship sans one. There are also assist leaders, defensive player of the year, and players that gave Micheal Jordan a run for his money. There is also a player with flashy stats. Basketball skills translate to wins and numbers. Paul is good, he is fast and has good court vision but so is Rose and Deron Williams. Kidd has some good D (I'm a Laker fan) and he has adapted to every team and his age. Payton was a defensive player of the year in an era dominated by big man (RAIN MAN, Ewing). Nash, two time MVP, I don't agree with it but he has it. Stockton is the point guard every high school coach wants his players to mimic, he is just damn good. Give Paul time before you start putting him on the level of legendary point guards that have proved themselves. Rose and Deron will be there with him, | ||
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VENDIZ
1575 Posts
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Ace
United States16096 Posts
On January 17 2012 04:10 stork4ever wrote: Penny Hardaway was in the Magic Johnson/Michael Jordan discussion, look where he is now (btw I'm his #1 fan, I once spent 250 on his shoes). Everyone you listed either has a MVP or has gone to the NBA championship sans one. There are also assist leaders, defensive player of the year, and players that gave Micheal Jordan a run for his money. There is also a player with flashy stats. Basketball skills translate to wins and numbers. Paul is good, he is fast and has good court vision but so is Rose and Deron Williams. Kidd has some good D (I'm a Laker fan) and he has adapted to every team and his age. Payton was a defensive player of the year in an era dominated by big man (RAIN MAN, Ewing). Nash, two time MVP, I don't agree with it but he has it. Stockton is the point guard every high school coach wants his players to mimic, he is just damn good. Give Paul time before you start putting him on the level of legendary point guards that have proved themselves. Rose and Deron will be there with him, Penny was never in the discussion. He was good, really good. But he wasn't All Time good. If anyone was putting Penny on the level of Magic Johnson they were hyping him up too far. Penny even at his peak wasn't the all around dominant player that most guys in the convo get to. Chris Paul is going into his 7th year. I mean let's stop and think about this for a bit because I don't want to keep going over this: He's in his prime. He was already really good as a rookie, then in his third year he made a leap so big that at the time he was in the Isaiah/Magic discussion. He repeated it again the very next year. Then he got hurt while still putting up numbers most people would kill for. Then he came back not 100% with less explosive speed than before but still retained the Point Guard crown. He was doing this for years with David West as his best offensive player, and a solid defense in New Orleans. He wasn't playing on stacked teams like some other guys and showed he could still play at top 5 level in the NBA while playing on a slow paced team AND having criminally low usage rates. His 2 best years in terms of scoring he had 25.7 and a 27.5 usage rate, which for comparison don't even match Penny's best years in usage rate but his production still blows him out of the water. Now if you want to argue that Chris Paul shouldn't be in the discussion come up with something a little more substantial than some subjective measurement on when we should start giving guys credit. | ||
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VENDIZ
1575 Posts
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Ace
United States16096 Posts
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stork4ever
United States1036 Posts
Chris Paul has great stats, he has been my keeper in my fantasy team since his rookie year, he has won me two fantasy leagues just by himself. But in terms of results, he is lacking, especially when you are going to compare him with MVP's, championship runs, and other awards, he has...rookie of the year. My point is that to be an All Time Great, you need some sort of results, maybe Paul will have most triple doubles or some NBA championship but right now he is just another great pg in a league with other great pg's (Rose has a MVP and is looking to gear up for a championship run). I don't disagree that Paul is a great player and its not like I'm not giving him any credit, but you are comparing with the All Time Great point guards in the league, and in this league there are tons of great players, you need results to separate yourself from them. | ||
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slyboogie
United States3423 Posts
On January 17 2012 05:28 Ace wrote: Penny was never in the discussion. He was good, really good. But he wasn't All Time good. If anyone was putting Penny on the level of Magic Johnson they were hyping him up too far. Penny even at his peak wasn't the all around dominant player that most guys in the convo get to. Chris Paul is going into his 7th year. I mean let's stop and think about this for a bit because I don't want to keep going over this: He's in his prime. He was already really good as a rookie, then in his third year he made a leap so big that at the time he was in the Isaiah/Magic discussion. He repeated it again the very next year. Then he got hurt while still putting up numbers most people would kill for. Then he came back not 100% with less explosive speed than before but still retained the Point Guard crown. He was doing this for years with David West as his best offensive player, and a solid defense in New Orleans. He wasn't playing on stacked teams like some other guys and showed he could still play at top 5 level in the NBA while playing on a slow paced team AND having criminally low usage rates. His 2 best years in terms of scoring he had 25.7 and a 27.5 usage rate, which for comparison don't even match Penny's best years in usage rate but his production still blows him out of the water. Now if you want to argue that Chris Paul shouldn't be in the discussion come up with something a little more substantial than some subjective measurement on when we should start giving guys credit. He shouldn't be considered an all-timer unless you also consider Isaiah Thomas an all-timer. Isaiah Thomas was one of the best players in the NBA when he was young. However, old Isaiah was, simply not the same player. His efficiency dropped across the board, he was less effective. He still had a long career, a Hall of Fame career but I think you'd agree that he was never the 84' and 85' Isaiah for very long. The fact is, Chris Paul's 2010 was an injury year, he played like 40 games. He was NOT the same player in 2011 as he was in 2008. That's just a fact. He lost tons of speed and tons of explosiveness. Is it gone forever? Nobody knows. Some of it has certainly recovered in 2012. But he still isn't producing like he was in 2008. Sorry. He's gone from definitive top 10 player ever and possibly 2nd best point guard ever to guaranteed hall-of-famer. | ||
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