EPTNBA Regular Season 2011-2012 - Page 83
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slyboogie
United States3423 Posts
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Ace
United States16096 Posts
On January 15 2012 16:40 Holcan wrote: No AI? I always thought he was one of those "greatest of our eras" type players, guess my impressions of his greatness were impacted by his overall hype? Also Steve Nash? Maybe not the best defensive player by any means, but running some of the highest efficiency playoff offense has to somehow balance that out. He is a first ballot hall of fame too. AI's too inefficient and Nash isn't good enough even though he's an offensive maestro. I guess to be even clearer with those 6 guys they can do almost anything on the court. All of them are a mixture of high volume, high efficiency (cept Kobe) scorers with playmaking ability and defensive dominance. Running some of the best offenses the NBA has ever seen still isn't good enough because you'd need a specific type of team for Nash to truly dominate. With these 6 guys you can put them on any team, run any system, let them be the #1 option and you're guaranteed to contend. Let's put it another way. Some random God shows up and changes the universe. He picks 5 basketball players for you to go up against: Magic Johnson Michael Jordan Larry Bird Karl Malone Shaquille O'neal Or insert any post 70s era All Timer. If you had to build a team out of the 1995 NBA Draft and beyond taking into account all around play style do you really want Nash or Iverson in this game? Also winning an MVP doesn't matter to what I'm getting at here. We're talking about straight up top tier basketball ability. If we are going to use MVP numbers to qualify people then Rose and Nash still fail as Wade's 3rd year and arguably 2nd year beats Rose's MVP year, and Chris Paul's 08-10 run wipes out Nash entirely. MVP awards aren't a good indicator on how dominant a player is since it is decided by factors that don't include basketball ability. | ||
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slyboogie
United States3423 Posts
Chris Paul shouldn't really be on that list. And I'm a huge Chris Paul fan. I think I've professed my man-love for him in this thread many times. But his career isn't even close to long enough to be on that list. Unless you're just talking about raw talent. But then that makes me think of Shaun Livingston and Anfrnee Hardaway. It's also crazy to think that Tim Duncan was drafted one year after Kobe Bryant. And he "wasted" 4 years of his life at Wake Forest. | ||
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Itsmedudeman
United States19229 Posts
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Ace
United States16096 Posts
On January 15 2012 17:14 Itsmedudeman wrote: Hmm yeah, CP is good, but he's no where near legendary status. I think Rose is clearly better than him. AI in his prime is hard to judge. Chris Paul is pretty much a lock for All-Time great, especially if the Clippers do well. One of the things that goes heavily in favor of guys like Kobe, Garnett, Wade and Lebron are that they've played on different kinds of teams where they are the #1 option, shared the load, had to reduce their roles, or played on star studded teams (Team USA) and still showed they could do whatever you need. | ||
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slyboogie
United States3423 Posts
Chris Paul is almost there; he has no hardware and he's spent a lot of time in OKC and New Orleans, which sucks for his pub but I think most people will agree that he's the best modern point guard by a mile. Modern=1990-Current. EDIT: Yes, he's better than Kidd, Stockton, Payton and Nash. Much better. He can basically do all the things they can do except be tall like Kidd. | ||
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slyboogie
United States3423 Posts
On January 15 2012 17:18 Ace wrote: What does the length of his career have to do with it? If you come into the league and instantly dominate at an All-Time Great level for multiple years then you're really just that good. He's only realistically played like this for 3-4 years. Rookie year wasn't domination by any stretch, though he was excellent. 2010, he was injured. So...2008, 2009, 2011 and, probably, 2012. So...that's like Tracy Mcgrady right? Look at McGrady in Orlando and first and second season in Houston. He was nutso. But no one's lining up to call him an all time great. Brandon Roy's production was Hall of Fame level. But he only had it for 2 seasons. You need some semblance of longevity. That's it. Also, what's your issue with Dwight Howard? He's incredibly good and his failures are mainly evident due to poor comps. Dwight Howard is shorter that Kevin Durant, Blake Griffin and Amare Stoudemire. He should not be compared to Wilt Chamberlain because that's not his body type. He should not be compared to Shaq because he doesn't have the size. He's done a great job with what he has, which is mega-athleticism and buffness combined with good, not godly, size. | ||
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Ace
United States16096 Posts
Dwight Howard isn't good enough to make the list. He's a defensive juggernaut but he doesn't have the offensive dominance, passing ability (he's VERY bad here) nor the playoff performances to be included. He might get there one day. I'm not hating on any of these guys though. Just that there is a margin that exists between "very good" and "All-Time Great". Guys like Clyde Drexler, Kevin Johnson, McHale, Bill Russel - great players. But they don't hold a candle to the ones I listed because they just aren't good enough in multiple areas of the game. Edit: Also notice I'm not comparing Dwight to any Centers of the past. I'm judging him strictly on basketball ability with no semblance of position being cared for. | ||
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Holcan
Canada2593 Posts
Nash, T-Mac, Brandon Roy, Dwight Howard and Yao. Give me last years playoff run Dirk as my 6 man ~ We all know Phil Jackson would win anyways :/ | ||
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slyboogie
United States3423 Posts
Is Chris Paul better than both those guys? Yeah, he is/was/will be. But no one will call him an all time great just like that. Also, I think it's hilarious how you always drop Bill Russell in there. I have no opinion on the matter and I don't think any basketball played in black and white should be even talked about. But it's just hilarious. Even the guys on your list can't do everything. Dwyane Wade can't shoot (relatively.) Chris Paul can't be tall or shoot threes consistently, KG should have been better with his back to the basket. Lebron can't play in the post. Basically, only Duncan and Kobe have "perfect" basketball. I'm being facetious about Chris Paul - he basically plays the perfect point guard. | ||
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igotmyown
United States4291 Posts
On January 15 2012 17:18 slyboogie wrote: No wai!! CP3 isn't legendary but Derrick Rose needs at least 3 more years of steady improvement before I'd say he's had a better career. Chris Paul is almost there; he has no hardware and he's spent a lot of time in OKC and New Orleans, which sucks for his pub but I think most people will agree that he's the best modern point guard by a mile. Modern=1990-Current. EDIT: Yes, he's better than Kidd, Stockton, Payton and Nash. Much better. He can basically do all the things they can do except be tall like Kidd. Chris Paul can shut down Kevin Durant/guard Kobe and Wade and Lebron when he's 35 years old? Chris Paul has a lot of steals and is a good rebounder, but I would bet on Kidd/Payton's defense over Chris Paul's. | ||
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slyboogie
United States3423 Posts
On January 15 2012 17:49 igotmyown wrote: Chris Paul can shut down Kevin Durant/guard Kobe and Wade and Lebron when he's 35 years old? Chris Paul has a lot of steals and is a good rebounder, but I would bet on Kidd/Payton's defense over Chris Paul's. You don't honestly think that Jason Kidd shut down those guys do you? I mean..there were a couple of other guys on that team. I mean. I have those games on DVR, I guess I could rewatch them. But I really don't think Jason Kidd did what you think he did. And I already said it, Chris Paul can't be tall. Jason Kidd's 6'4'', Chris Paul is probably 5'11''. | ||
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Ace
United States16096 Posts
On January 15 2012 17:49 slyboogie wrote: Chris Paul's 2008 and 2009 are some of the greatest years of any basketball player. McGrady's 2002-2004/2005 were maybe not on that level but 2002 was, probably, one of the best offensive seasons for any single wing player. Roy's 2008-2009/2010 absolutely did get there. Is Chris Paul better than both those guys? Yeah, he is/was/will be. But no one will call him an all time great just like that. Also, I think it's hilarious how you always drop Bill Russell in there. I have no opinion on the matter and I don't think any basketball played in black and white should be even talked about. But it's just hilarious. Even the guys on your list can't do everything. Dwyane Wade can't shoot (relatively.) Chris Paul can't be tall or shoot threes consistently, KG should have been better with his back to the basket. Lebron can't play in the post. Basically, only Duncan and Kobe have "perfect" basketball. I'm being facetious about Chris Paul - he basically plays the perfect point guard. When I say do everything, I'm strictly talking about Offensive, Defensive and all around impact. Wade can score at a high level on high volume. Doesn't matter that he can't or won't shoot 3s - he's going to get a lot of points. No one criticizes Jordan for not shooting 3s because when you're THAT good only pundits care. Chris Paul's height is also irrelevant here. I seriously think you're arguing something else that I'm not even speaking on. To address some other misconceptions: Whether KG should have been a better back to the basket player, or Lebron can't play in the post (false btw) it is irrelevant. How you score or facilitate based on some made up rules by other people means jack shit. Can you do it at a high level, on high volume and consistently? Yes? Then that's all that matters. People complaining that guys don't play in the post enough is just as silly as people complaining that Magic was terrible at slashing even though he was a guard, or Duncan can't shoot 3s when Dirk and other bigs were doing it. It honestly doesn't mean shit. I mean if Kobe is going to be the "perfect" basketball player then we still put Wade, Lebron, and Chris Paul in the list since they've all got multiple years better or comparable to some of Kobe's best. McGrady's 02 season was good, but it's once again not what I'm getting at here. I'm talking standout, can be put up against the best of the best seasons. McGrady;s best season will always be 02-03 and that is the only way he gets in the conversation. After that he doesn't compare. Does he have the signature playoff performances, standout dominant runs or crazy efficient seasons? On January 15 2012 17:49 igotmyown wrote: Chris Paul can shut down Kevin Durant/guard Kobe and Wade and Lebron when he's 35 years old? Chris Paul has a lot of steals and is a good rebounder, but I would bet on Kidd/Payton's defense over Chris Paul's. Kidd is good, but he got abused quite a few times in the playoffs against those guys. Wade and Kobe in particular turned him into a traffic cone. | ||
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BalliSLife
1339 Posts
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AntiGrav1ty
Germany2310 Posts
On January 15 2012 17:18 slyboogie wrote: Yes, he's better than Kidd, Stockton, Payton and Nash. Much better. He can basically do all the things they can do except be tall like Kidd. Whaaaaaat? Dont get crazy man. CP3 aint there yet. | ||
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BalliSLife
1339 Posts
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Sroobz
United States1377 Posts
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Jibba
United States22883 Posts
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Daozzt
United States1263 Posts
On January 16 2012 04:54 BalliSLife wrote: What list is everyone talking about? All time great center I'd go with a healthy Yao Ming over pretty much anybody. Man, there are at least 5 centers off the top of my head that are way better than Yao from somewhat recent times. The obvious ones being Shaq and Olajuwon. | ||
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VENDIZ
1575 Posts
On January 16 2012 05:36 Sroobz wrote: The Bulls defense is fucking SCARY good. Their two losses only occurred because the Warriors had GREAT shooting(very rare occassion...) and the Hawks dropped like 12041394103849134 3's in the second quarter(I think). D-Rose(MVP!), Deng(Most underrated player in the NBA), Brewer(Defensive genius), Boozer(Arc maniac), Noah(The Awkward Beast), Korver(3-point specialist), Asik(The sleeping, white giant), and their FUCKING AWESOME coach are going to sail smoothly to the NBA finals this year! Go Bulls! 2012! Even as a Bulls fan I find that a tad too much  We lost to GSW due to turnovers, vs. the Hawks it was a mixture of poor shooting and them having a field day (shot 70% till late in the 3rd), but that won't happen every game in a playoff series, luckily  Also on the topic of PGs and all-time greats; CP3 > Stockton?! Really?! | ||
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