EPTThat's what I was thinking too, but he looked pretty pissed (I know that some look that way when they're not).
NBA Regular Season 2011-2012 - Page 293
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zoLo
United States5896 Posts
That's what I was thinking too, but he looked pretty pissed (I know that some look that way when they're not). | ||
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zeehar
Korea (South)3804 Posts
On April 05 2012 16:20 zoLo wrote: (I know that some look that way when they're not). there's your answer right there | ||
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Scarecrow
Korea (South)9175 Posts
On April 05 2012 14:28 Vindicare605 wrote: 2 clutch shots in 2 consecutive games. And there's still people that argue that Kobe isn't clutch. It blows my mind. It blows my mind that people still thinks he's the epitome of clutch. Statistically he's average, shooting about 31% (when trailing by one or two points, or tied, in the final 24 seconds of regular-season and playoff games since 1996-97. NBA-wide the avg is 29.7%). According to that even lebron is more accurate at 33%. It's just the sheer volume of shots kobe takes at the end of games that makes it seem like he's always hitting them. He also has an incredibly low assist count over the same period in the last 24 seconds. I'd take cp3/durant/melo/dirk over kobe in the clutch any day. | ||
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Vindicare605
United States16127 Posts
On April 05 2012 18:03 Scarecrow wrote: It blows my mind that people still thinks he's the epitome of clutch. Statistically he's average, shooting about 31% (when trailing by one or two points, or tied, in the final 24 seconds of regular-season and playoff games since 1996-97. NBA-wide the avg is 29.7%). According to that even lebron is more accurate at 33%. It's just the sheer volume of shots kobe takes at the end of games that makes it seem like he's always hitting them. He also has an incredibly low assist count over the same period in the last 24 seconds. I'd take cp3/durant/melo/dirk over kobe in the clutch any day. Melo? rofl. That just tells you how deceiving stats can be, that you'll trust them to go with Melo in a clutch situation over Kobe Bryant. You're so busy reading numbers that you're completely missing what's right in front of you. Dirk CP3 and Durant are all clutch as well, and they share with Kobe something Melo sorely lacks. A true competitiveness that never dies no matter what the score is and that inspires the teammates around him to keep playing. | ||
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Scarecrow
Korea (South)9175 Posts
On April 05 2012 18:08 Vindicare605 wrote: Melo? rofl. That just tells you how deceiving stats can be, that you'll trust them to go with Melo in a clutch situation over Kobe Bryant. You're so busy reading numbers that you're completely missing what's right in front of you. Dirk CP3 and Durant are all clutch as well, and they share with Kobe something Melo sorely lacks. A true competitiveness that never dies no matter what the score is and that inspires the teammates around him to keep playing. I'd rather go with numbers than some gut feeling you get from watching Kobe make the odd difficult shot out of a double team. Did you see Moneyball? Competitiveness is great and I know Bryant has it in spades, just he's also a ball hog who refuses to pass out of double teams with the game on the line. Kobe's clutchness is more myth and hype than anything else, you just don't see all his misses in the highlight videos. Noone comes close to the number of attempts he takes. At the start of 2011 Melo was 21 of 44 in the clutch (47.7% and leading anyone with over 30 clutch attempts in the nba over the past 14 years). http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/post/_/id/24200/the-truth-about-kobe-bryant-in-crunch-time just have a read, it's pretty compelling | ||
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RowdierBob
Australia13536 Posts
I think it's one part of his game that's quite overrated (despite the fact he is an all time great). No one remembers all the clunkers he has--they only remember the made shots and because of the sheer volume he's taken he developed a reputation of being a supremely clutch player. It's not like he's anti-clutch, but there are other guys in the league who are better at taking clutch shots IMO. | ||
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MilesTeg
France1271 Posts
On April 05 2012 14:14 slyboogie wrote: I don't understand how you can play basketball and watch a lot of NBA and think that's the definition of dirty. You're acting like this isn't what happens in every NBA game. But whatever, I am, in fact, biased; though I don't think I'm wrong. I am steeling myself for the endless bitching during the playoffs. EDIT: Just for reference, that game had Josh Mcroberts, Reggie Evans, Kobe Bryant and Chris Paul. I mean...those guys are WAAAAY dirtier than Blake Griffin. How in any way is Blake's game like the 32 year old dude in the park flails his arms and swings his elbows. You get hit when you play ball - it's dirty when the other guy is trying to hurt you. I rarely see obvious dirty plays like that. Your definition of dirty is kinda restrictive, but it's subjective I guess. I don't think the players you mentionned are dirtier, except Evans. But even if they are it doesn't excuse settling for this sort of stuff. Be physical, but play the game right. Next time you might not get so lucky with the officiating. On April 05 2012 18:08 Vindicare605 wrote: rofl. That just tells you how deceiving stats can be No, it just tells how deceiving your own bias can be. Watching a handful of games, a minority of which end up in one of those situations, isn't exactly the best way to analyse clutchness. I hate how people blindly criticise stats these days. If there's something wrong with the way stats are used, then say it. All we're saying is that Kobe doesn't actually make a lot of those shots, and that his perceive clutchness is mostly due to observation bias, since every shot he makes is shown 50 times on ESPN and we rarely get to see the ones he misses. Is there anything wrong with our argument? | ||
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Ace
United States16096 Posts
On April 05 2012 18:03 Scarecrow wrote: It blows my mind that people still thinks he's the epitome of clutch. Statistically he's average, shooting about 31% (when trailing by one or two points, or tied, in the final 24 seconds of regular-season and playoff games since 1996-97. NBA-wide the avg is 29.7%). According to that even lebron is more accurate at 33%. It's just the sheer volume of shots kobe takes at the end of games that makes it seem like he's always hitting them. He also has an incredibly low assist count over the same period in the last 24 seconds. I'd take cp3/durant/melo/dirk over kobe in the clutch any day. I agree with this so much. On April 05 2012 18:08 Vindicare605 wrote: Melo? rofl. That just tells you how deceiving stats can be, that you'll trust them to go with Melo in a clutch situation over Kobe Bryant. You're so busy reading numbers that you're completely missing what's right in front of you. Dirk CP3 and Durant are all clutch as well, and they share with Kobe something Melo sorely lacks. A true competitiveness that never dies no matter what the score is and that inspires the teammates around him to keep playing. Come on, stop it. | ||
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icystorage
Jollibee19350 Posts
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krndandaman
Mozambique16569 Posts
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ecstatica
United States542 Posts
On April 05 2012 12:18 igotmyown wrote: The Spurs don't have super duncan anymore, but even their bench are quality players. Most teams have some key bench players then a bunch of garbage players. Starter/future starter worthy Tiago Splitter Manu Ginobili Draft no names who become big contributors Gary Neal James Andersen Role player: Matt Bonner Guys who at one point were starters: Stephen Jackson Boris Diaw and their final guy is Patty Mills, who gave the US olympic team fits (although he was released by Portland) If Boston still had Jeff Green and Wilcox... now that would be some bench (2 heart surgeries WTF?). Did you like how they destroyed spurs defensively? Blair was the only thing that bailed them out. Gotta be able to close out a game with 14 on the clock ffs Cs bench demolished Spurs that game. Its just that Pierce, Allen and KG were <<40% | ||
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Skullflower
United States3779 Posts
On April 05 2012 16:20 zoLo wrote: That's what I was thinking too, but he looked pretty pissed (I know that some look that way when they're not). He always looks like that after he dunks on someone. Watch the dunk on Perk. Same expression. | ||
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Holcan
Canada2593 Posts
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Rebs
Pakistan10726 Posts
On April 06 2012 01:21 Holcan wrote: kobe may not be the epitome of clutch, but when he is shooting 63% over three games, I don't mind him taking the last shot. Look the fact is Kobe takes alot of shots and he misses alot of shots. But he always takes them. And really for me theres certain levels at which people can step up take the ball and take control at the end of games Theres your regular season game that even Jeremy Lin has shown he can win (no disrespect), theres the playoffish regular season game, theres the early mid playoff games, conf finals and then the finals. People like Lebron and Durant (Lebron in particular) boss all of those categories except the last one and that for me is the most important one. He can do it. Lebron over Kobe anyday if Lebron is playing like Lebron. But the real question is, is Lebron going to want to take the game over when it really counts ? Kobe has done it. Hes tried and failed, but he never does "he not try". Lebron when he had the chance went missing. It would insult anyones intelligence to say that he didnt chicken out against the Mavs last year. He had all the tools (and has even better ones now) at his disposal that he should need to absolutely rape face. For me the question is even if he does take the responsibility is it because he wants it or because he doesnt want to be seen as a chicken shit in finals games ? That makes it getting over harder and I really really really hope he does. Hes for me for the most part the face of the NBA and how good it can be. Hes inhuman thats how good he is. Still for right now, its Kobe. Hes more clutch. | ||
XaI)CyRiC
United States4471 Posts
Hasn't been the same since that possibly meaningful All-Star Game … you know, the one LeBron dominated until the final minute, then passed up a chance to close (earning not one but two on-court lectures from a semi-disgusted Kobe). Following the predictable media backlash (and then the backlash to the backlash), it was easy to say, "Come on, everybody, it's just an All-Star Game, this doesn't matter." I'm not so sure. LeBron famously shrank from The Moment against Boston. A friend of mine sat right next to Miami's bench in Dallas during Game 4 of the Finals and told me the following story: If you remember, Dallas called timeout after Miami jumped to a seven-point lead with 10 minutes to play. The series looked like it was over, or headed that way, barring a semi-improbable comeback. Wade had been carrying them for this game and the previous one; now, the table was set for LeBron to bring them home. His teammates knew better than anyone. Here's how my friend remembers it: "They were excited in the huddle because they knew they were close (to finishing Dallas off). I was right there, I was sitting three feet away from their trainer. LeBron sat down and started chewing his fingers. I remember (assistant coach) Bob McAdoo and a few other bench guys kept coming over, slapping him on the shoulder and saying, 'Come on, Bron, take us home.' And he was just staring into space and chewing his nails. I remember AT THAT MOMENT wondering, 'How would MJ be right now?' I thought for sure LeBron would get fired up and feed off those guys. He looked like he wanted no part of it! So they go back out and Dallas starts coming back. Next timeout, same thing. 'Come on, Bron, take us home.' And he's staring into space and chewing his nails. I could see Wade's face. Remember, Wade played his ass off in those Dallas games. Wade had this look on his face like, 'Oh, fuck me.' That was when I knew Dallas could win. I don't think LeBron has it in him. I will never forget watching that from that close. I feel like I witnessed history and actually felt that way as it was happening." So when that issue resurfaced in the All-Star Game, it meant something, and it will keep meaning something until the league's most talented player starts asserting his will in a truly meaningful way. Why hasn't LeBron felt any obligation to dominate one of these statement games (Orlando, Chicago, Indiana, Oklahoma City and Boston, all losses)? Shouldn't we be worried about his inability to shift gears depending on the game, the situation, or even the moment? He actually thinks he's doing the right thing by playing unselfishly, getting everyone involved, making the right pass at the right time and doing everything else you'd do in a vacuum when situations didn't matter. Remember Chris Paul's on/off switch? I'm not even sure LeBron has a switch. A good example: Sunday's blowout defeat in Boston, something of a must-win for Miami because of the moment (national TV, coming off a cold streak, with doubts forming), the opponent (a suddenly resurgent Boston team) and the playoff implications (they might play in Round 2). For perimeter defenders, Boston has Paul Pierce (34 years old), Sasha Pavlovic (literally, a 0-tool NBA player) and Marquis Daniels (who was washed up four years ago). That's the entire "Guys Who Can Defend LeBron on Boston" list. If there was ever a day for LeBron to say, "Get out of my way, I'm going to keep attacking Pierce, draw some fouls on him and then annihilate the two stiffs backing him up," it was this game. And yet … he's just not wired that way. He's like a chess player who can't see the board. The Heat ended up getting blown out in a truly passive performance — Miami at its worst, just guys standing around watching each other go one-on-one — then the media incorrectly turned it into a "What's wrong with Miami?" story. The answer is simple: The Heat just want the playoffs to start. Durant and Westbrook have the whole "We can be the best team in the league!" thing driving them. Chicago can't succeed unless they're going balls-to-the-wall. Kobe has 40,000 points and six rings pushing him. Memphis, Indiana and the Clippers just want to be relevant. The Celtics know it's their last dance together, and maybe the Spurs and Mavericks know it, too. The Heat? They're on cruise control. Of course, that's when your signature guy should be saying, "Not on my watch, fellas, I can feel things slipping, I'm gonna have to throw in a little extra tonight." That's the calibration meter that LeBron seems to be missing — knowing when to step on that gas pedal, when to be selfish, when to seize the moment, maybe even when to morph into a homicidally competitive dick (Jordan-style) for three hours just to prove a point. We spend too much time picking basketball players apart (especially LeBron), but in this case? It's totally valid. The Celtics shouldn't have been celebrating in their locker room on Sunday and saying, "Man, thank God LeBron didn't come at us." Because I guarantee that's what happened. That he can't see the chess board after nine seasons makes me wonder if he'll ever see it. Cite: http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id/7770130/handicapping-nba-mvp-race Personally, I have always found it almost comical that a professional athlete that big and strong is constantly chewing his nails like a nervous teenage girl. I know that he's not always doing it, and that he occasionally gets the killer instinct look, but he doesn't seem to have it in big moments like Kobe or Wade do on a consistent basis. I've also noticed on multiple occasions moments where it looks like Wade is either consoling or trying to fire Lebron up. That shouldn't have to happen for a guy who is trying to present himself as the best player in the world. | ||
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Zorkmid
4410 Posts
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/eKKwy.gif) | ||
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rei
United States3594 Posts
On April 05 2012 21:24 Ace wrote: I agree with this so much. Come on, stop it. Vindicare can't even detect sarcasm, don't expect him to understand what evidence means. | ||
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cLutZ
United States19574 Posts
Choke does. | ||
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zoLo
United States5896 Posts
On April 06 2012 01:07 Skullflower wrote: He always looks like that after he dunks on someone. Watch the dunk on Perk. Same expression. I'm not talking about Griffin, lol. | ||
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Holcan
Canada2593 Posts
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