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On December 10 2011 09:40 Ace wrote:The difference is Philly, Indiana and Memphis are full of young talent and/or cap space or lottery picks. They have room to get better. They are already almost done rebuilding and can go into contender with a move or two. This is the same route OKC, Chicago, Miami, and Cleveland to a sorry extent took. Dallas and Minnesota did the same thing years ago, except Minnesota got busted for tampering charges and had to forfeit their picks. If New Orleans tried it they'd have no room to get better. Show nested quote +
New Orleans, at least, has the capability of being in the next tier of teams from contenders. They have the potential of being the sort of team that is not good enough to win the championship but good enough to make deep playoff runs, sort of like the Jazz and Hawks of the past few years. And most of that core is pretty old, so they can flip those big expiring contracts in the future for draft picks.
New Orleans wouldn't want to pay all that money just for a deep playoff run with short but expensive contracts. Any of those guys could leave in 2 years so why would you pay big money for a stint where you don't contend? It is a waste of their time. The difference was the Jazz and the Hawks also had young players when they were making runs. The youngest out of the good players they were acquiring was Kevin Martin at 28. Not even comparable to Utah or Atlanta. Show nested quote +
Even though they weren't a contender, their ticket sales have been rising in the past few years. Tanking and hoarding draft picks is only good if you manage to get a top 5 pick or so. It's too much of a crapshoot getting a superstar outside of those picks. There's a business case to be made for being a consistent, competitive playoff team that is below what it takes to win a championship, rather than continuously waiting for the superstar that may never come.
There is: you need to have a large fan base with no other game in town that will allow you to sell out even if you can't win right away. There are only a few franchises in the league like that, the 2 most notorious ones being Golden State and Sacramento. New Orleans can't do what they do because they haven't even been in the city for 15 years yet. They are literally a new team that just arrived in 2001: They have no die hard fan base that is willing to sit through a crap product. They can't just be medicore because it isn't winning nor is it profitable.
I don't think we'll ever convince each other. It's fine, we seem to agree on lots, disagreement is fun.
Anyways, poor Brandon Roy. I loved watching him in the Pac-10 back in the day and his knees were probably the only reason he fell to 6 in the draft that year. He really should have been a star and I think he would have been a shoe-in hall of famer. I know that sounds ridiculous, but he was so good.
Here's a haiku that took me 1 minute to pay tribute.
Knees sapped of their strength
Game Six against the Mavericks
Ghost of Brandon Roy
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On December 10 2011 10:50 VENDIZ wrote:Show nested quote +On December 10 2011 07:40 Holcan wrote:
Rip bought out, finally.
Chuck Hayes and Marcus Thorton to Kings
Thad Young stays on the Sixers
Chandler, in possibly the worst move so far this off season to the Knicks.
Caron Butler to the Clips.
Anything else interesting I missed? Battier to the Heat - makes an already bulletproof defense even better. Arenas is waived (amnesty) Hill stays with the Suns (had offers from Knicks, Clippers & Bulls) T-Mac to the Hawks Vince Carter was also waived Also; wow, Oden's health is worse than Roy's knees, and he retired... This smells like a short NBA career..
Apparently Jeff Green just resigned with the Celtics, and the Lakers picked up Kapono.
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Oden should retire... his health is ridiculous! 1st Day of Training-Camp and he is again out for a Season? He played like 3 Games in 3yrs, thats worse than Yao 8-O
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He has one leg longer than the other. He's ALWAYS going to have knee problems being the size and weight he is.
I like Oden, but he's never going to be fit like I said 10 pages ago.
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tmac to hawks is a good move
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I don't hate the Chandler siging for NYC... It'll certainly beef up their D. He's still horribly overpaid though.
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shannon brown to suns
and big baby trade to magic for brandon bass?
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United States22883 Posts
Why do you not get that PER is a terrible stat? Holy shit. It's just completely useless for figuring out anything beyond the regular box score, which makes sense because that's all it is. If the regular box score stats aren't that indicative, why would a conglomeration of them be?
Those articles are awful.
Your argument in the last thread was that "it predicted the Heat would win the championship," except it was predicting the Heat would win the championship when they were barely above 500. It is perfect for players like Lebron and Wade, but it doesn't examine anything beyond the superficial level. All it tells you is who the superstars are, which everyone already knows.
The perfect example is the Shane Battier move. Battier is going to be utterly fantastic for the Heat and may very well be the piece that locks them up a championship, but he's a below average player according to Hollinger. And before you say something like "it's not Hollinger, it's just statistics!" that's not how statistics and quantification work. He created it, it contains his selection biases.
That’s why there was no real need for the New York Knicks to add Paul. Paul value comes from his ability to create easy shots for his teammates, but Carmelo Anthony and Amar'e Stoudemire don’t need anyone creating shots for them. They can do that themselves; that’s why they are both perennial All-Stars. Are you fucking kidding me?
By leaving Dallas and going to New York City, Chandler swung the balance of power in the NBA, removing the Mavericks from title contention while giving the Knicks a legitimate chance at one.
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http://SI.com - Orlando says on record Dwight has permission to speak w/ Lakers, Nets, & #MAVS about trade!
Let's go MAVS! But I don't see any way Mavs could get a Deal done. Only if Dwight wants to foce his way to the Mavs, Orlando would take whatever they get. x0
But whatever, anything except Lakers is great for Dwight.
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On December 10 2011 12:45 Jibba wrote:Why do you not get that PER is a terrible stat? Holy shit. It's just completely useless for figuring out anything beyond the regular box score, which makes sense because that's all it is. If the regular box score stats aren't that indicative, why would a conglomeration of them be? Those articles are awful. Your argument in the last thread was that "it predicted the Heat would win the championship," except it was predicting the Heat would win the championship when they were barely above 500. It is perfect for players like Lebron and Wade, but it doesn't examine anything beyond the superficial level. All it tells you is who the superstars are, which everyone already knows. The perfect example is the Shane Battier move. Battier is going to be utterly fantastic for the Heat and may very well be the piece that locks them up a championship, but he's a below average player according to Hollinger. And before you say something like "it's not Hollinger, it's just statistics!" that's not how statistics and quantification work. He created it, it contains his selection biases. Show nested quote +That’s why there was no real need for the New York Knicks to add Paul. Paul value comes from his ability to create easy shots for his teammates, but Carmelo Anthony and Amar'e Stoudemire don’t need anyone creating shots for them. They can do that themselves; that’s why they are both perennial All-Stars. Are you fucking kidding me? Show nested quote +By leaving Dallas and going to New York City, Chandler swung the balance of power in the NBA, removing the Mavericks from title contention while giving the Knicks a legitimate chance at one.
Umm, I don't pray at the altar of PER, if you recall the NBA thread of last year, my point is that the PG position is overrated. I have always said PG is overrated, and if I was re-drafting the whole NBA I would not take a PG in the top 5. Hollinger himself says PER is imperfect, especially on defense (Battier's strength for instance), and it overrates offensive players who have high usage rates and don't necessarily play efficiently. CP3 has a higher PER than Howard and I would take Howard over CP3 10 out of 10 times.
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David West sounds expensive for the Celtics... for a backup? So starting 5 is the same as last postseason: Rondo Allen Pierce Garnett the lesser O'Neal. They kept Jeff Green, Marquis Daniels, and are adding West and Bass.
I'm not very impressed if they're going to pay him $10 million a year.
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fck. what have you done to my rockets stern....even if it was a bad trade, imagine the locker room with not 1, or 2, but three freaken starters knowing they were/are on the chopping blocks. how can you even practice property. no synergy and harmony...sigh.
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On December 10 2011 17:18 Doraemon wrote:
fck. what have you done to my rockets stern....even if it was a bad trade, imagine the locker room with not 1, or 2, but three freaken starters knowing they were/are on the chopping blocks. how can you even practice property. no synergy and harmony...sigh.
I think for most players that sort of rumor is overrated. Good players are regularly on the trading block in baseball and it has no effect on their play. Trades in basketball and football of elite player are more rare. I don't buy there being long term "psychological effects" on the players. Honestly, I think things like chemistry etc are constantly overrated by "experts" because they need to say something other than what is obvious to everyone.
For example, Sanchez when the Jets are winning has "swagger" losing? no swagger. Lakers win a title, they have chemistry, lose to the Mavs because of obvious problems at the PG and SF positions? Pau Gasol has GF problems and Phil Jackson's message that somehow worked for 6 + seasons in Chicago and 6+ seasons in LA has magically worn out.
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On December 10 2011 17:32 cLutZ wrote:Show nested quote +On December 10 2011 17:18 Doraemon wrote:
fck. what have you done to my rockets stern....even if it was a bad trade, imagine the locker room with not 1, or 2, but three freaken starters knowing they were/are on the chopping blocks. how can you even practice property. no synergy and harmony...sigh. I think for most players that sort of rumor is overrated. Good players are regularly on the trading block in baseball and it has no effect on their play. Trades in basketball and football of elite player are more rare. I don't buy there being long term "psychological effects" on the players. Honestly, I think things like chemistry etc are constantly overrated by "experts" because they need to say something other than what is obvious to everyone. For example, Sanchez when the Jets are winning has "swagger" losing? no swagger. Lakers win a title, they have chemistry, lose to the Mavs because of obvious problems at the PG and SF positions? Pau Gasol has GF problems and Phil Jackson's message that somehow worked for 6 + seasons in Chicago and 6+ seasons in LA has magically worn out.
I don't think it's overrated at all. knowing that you're trade bait would have profound effect on your game, players are not machines, they have emotions...at the end of the day they are all employess and as an employee, if i knew i was going to get shafted into another company i have no incentive to perform for my incumbent boss. that's my 2cents anyway
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On December 10 2011 15:08 cLutZ wrote:Show nested quote +On December 10 2011 12:45 Jibba wrote:Why do you not get that PER is a terrible stat? Holy shit. It's just completely useless for figuring out anything beyond the regular box score, which makes sense because that's all it is. If the regular box score stats aren't that indicative, why would a conglomeration of them be? Those articles are awful. Your argument in the last thread was that "it predicted the Heat would win the championship," except it was predicting the Heat would win the championship when they were barely above 500. It is perfect for players like Lebron and Wade, but it doesn't examine anything beyond the superficial level. All it tells you is who the superstars are, which everyone already knows. The perfect example is the Shane Battier move. Battier is going to be utterly fantastic for the Heat and may very well be the piece that locks them up a championship, but he's a below average player according to Hollinger. And before you say something like "it's not Hollinger, it's just statistics!" that's not how statistics and quantification work. He created it, it contains his selection biases. That’s why there was no real need for the New York Knicks to add Paul. Paul value comes from his ability to create easy shots for his teammates, but Carmelo Anthony and Amar'e Stoudemire don’t need anyone creating shots for them. They can do that themselves; that’s why they are both perennial All-Stars. Are you fucking kidding me? By leaving Dallas and going to New York City, Chandler swung the balance of power in the NBA, removing the Mavericks from title contention while giving the Knicks a legitimate chance at one. Umm, I don't pray at the altar of PER, if you recall the NBA thread of last year, my point is that the PG position is overrated. I have always said PG is overrated, and if I was re-drafting the whole NBA I would not take a PG in the top 5. Hollinger himself says PER is imperfect, especially on defense (Battier's strength for instance), and it overrates offensive players who have high usage rates and don't necessarily play efficiently. CP3 has a higher PER than Howard and I would take Howard over CP3 10 out of 10 times.
While I see what you're getting at I don't think I'd ever draft Dwight Howard before Chris Paul. Too many things Chris Paul can do vs what Dwight Howard can do. I could sign Chris Paul and be an instant contender, not the same with Dwight. Has he had even one memorable playoff series where you sat down and thought he is unstoppable?
Imo a better example would be what would happen if you had to draft Chris Paul or Chris Webber pre-injury (sorry Kings fans, I know it hurts).
On December 10 2011 17:40 Doraemon wrote:Show nested quote +On December 10 2011 17:32 cLutZ wrote:On December 10 2011 17:18 Doraemon wrote:
fck. what have you done to my rockets stern....even if it was a bad trade, imagine the locker room with not 1, or 2, but three freaken starters knowing they were/are on the chopping blocks. how can you even practice property. no synergy and harmony...sigh. I think for most players that sort of rumor is overrated. Good players are regularly on the trading block in baseball and it has no effect on their play. Trades in basketball and football of elite player are more rare. I don't buy there being long term "psychological effects" on the players. Honestly, I think things like chemistry etc are constantly overrated by "experts" because they need to say something other than what is obvious to everyone. For example, Sanchez when the Jets are winning has "swagger" losing? no swagger. Lakers win a title, they have chemistry, lose to the Mavs because of obvious problems at the PG and SF positions? Pau Gasol has GF problems and Phil Jackson's message that somehow worked for 6 + seasons in Chicago and 6+ seasons in LA has magically worn out. I don't think it's overrated at all. knowing that you're trade bait would have profound effect on your game, players are not machines, they have emotions...at the end of the day they are all employess and as an employee, if i knew i was going to get shafted into another company i have no incentive to perform for my incumbent boss. that's my 2cents anyway
I think trade rumors do have an effect but I agree with clutz - the media overblows it. Somehow professional athletes who have been doing this for years crumble because of what a teammate said or his supposed girlfriend situation? I don't ruining locker room chemistry is as easy as it sounds.
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apparently jeremy lin waived.....NOOOOO!!
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United States4471 Posts
I think the effect of trade rumors on a player depend on the player. A sensitive/emotional player like Odom, who already has issues with consistency and focus, will be (and has been) strongly affected by knowing he was going to be traded. I don't think it helped that he apparently didn't expect it (which seems odd since his name had been in the news so many times as a trade piece, but it's Lamar...). Other players who are less sensitive/emotional and can take a step back and look at the bigger picture will deal with that kind of news better. Some may even use it as motivation to prove to the team that they made a mistake in offering him up and work harder to prove they are a valuable asset.
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On December 10 2011 17:53 Ace wrote:Show nested quote +On December 10 2011 17:18 Doraemon wrote:
I don't think it's overrated at all. knowing that you're trade bait would have profound effect on your game, players are not machines, they have emotions...at the end of the day they are all employess and as an employee, if i knew i was going to get shafted into another company i have no incentive to perform for my incumbent boss. that's my 2cents anyway I think trade rumors do have an effect but I agree with clutz - the media overblows it. Somehow professional athletes who have been doing this for years crumble because of what a teammate said or his supposed girlfriend situation? I don't ruining locker room chemistry is as easy as it sounds.
but this isn't a rumour per se, it happened and it got vetoed. players deal with getting traded not vetoed trades and back to the old team.
i don't know...i think scola/martin are gone none the less...going to be an interesting season...definitely need to pick up another marquee player with the remaining cap and i hope that isn't nene, need a swingman/2guard to do the scoring. hmm
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EPT
