On February 29 2012 00:31 Flaccid wrote: Hahaha, even worse. The data I was looking at only kept track of a few years into the future. Looooool, what a brutal contract to move.
Compare that to when Edmonton had to move Pronger - at the time he was the premier defenseman in the league (he really was), in the prime of his career, signed to a reasonably cheap contract that came out of uncertainty with the new cap. And they still couldn't get a top roster player out of Anaheim.
But they don't HAVE to trade Nash. Nash is legally binded to them...
Edmonton moved Pronger thinking they had to, but they didn't... they rushed a trade based on a deadline. As I said before, Howson was literally on the same staff that traded Pronger.
Nash isn't being sold low, he is going to sit until someone ponies up. Thing is, someone will ponie up for Nash at the end of the day.
"We don't have to trade Rick Nash. We're not compelled to trade Rick Nash," Howson said. "We're going to do what's best for our team, and if we can do what's best for our team and accommodate Rick's wishes, that's what we're going to do."
Has that ever happened? Are there any instances we can look at where a star player has been 'forced to play' when already vocal about wanting to be moved? I can't recall any scenarios where a player was begrudgingly held on to until a 'good' deal was reached.
I don't mean to discount the possibility, but I'm curious to see if any comparables exist - otherwise it is somewhat too speculative for my liking.
Everyone knew that Carter was a shoot first center but CBJ it seemed. I don't know if they tried running them on separate lines to pull off the top line away from nash though.
And they moved him because a player wanting out essentially forces the hand.
A toxic asset isn't going to try very hard. They become an anchor on the cap, poison in the locker room. Letting that fester for a long period of time does not reflect well on the organization. players talk, they all know who the shitheads gms are and that come around back during the signing phase. In trades, rival gms sense the weakness, especially when the player has a NMC with a list of only five teams and a veto power over all trades.
On February 29 2012 02:25 Flaccid wrote: Has that ever happened? Are there any instances we can look at where a star player has been 'forced to play' when already vocal about wanting to be moved? I can't recall any scenarios where a player was begrudgingly held on to until a 'good' deal was reached.
I don't mean to discount the possibility, but I'm curious to see if any comparables exist - otherwise it is somewhat too speculative for my liking.
Scott Howson has done it before when he was part of Edmonton. Mike Comrie demanded a trade (being a 20 yearold fresh off of 62, and 71 point years... Led the Oilers in scoring the year before) and he sat around in the press box doing nothing for a solid month and a half.
They found a trade they were looking for (Corey Perry and a 1st (Ladislav Smid, Ironically..)) however that fell through because of money issues. They held out longer, found another deal for Woywitka (14th overall pick) and two first rounders (Danny Syvret and Rob Schremp) which was a pretty solid package at the time. Now all the assets are garbage, but all three were top prospects.
A far better example is the Lindros trade, which is pretty much the reason the Avalanche were such a powerhouse. The Nordiques held out about two months into the season until a deal that knocked their socks off came. The Nordiques(Avalanche) traded Lindros for Forsberg, Hextall, Simon, Ricci, Duchesne, Huffman, and two first round draft picks.
On February 29 2012 02:25 Flaccid wrote: Has that ever happened? Are there any instances we can look at where a star player has been 'forced to play' when already vocal about wanting to be moved? I can't recall any scenarios where a player was begrudgingly held on to until a 'good' deal was reached.
I don't mean to discount the possibility, but I'm curious to see if any comparables exist - otherwise it is somewhat too speculative for my liking.
They found a trade they were looking for (Corey Perry and a 1st (Ladislav Smid, Ironically..)) however that fell through because of money issues.
Oh man, old wounds. I remember that trade and the 'money issues' being the asshole Oilers demanding that Comrie pay back his bonus - what dicks. I hate this goddamn team.
I'd argue that the Lindros deal was a special case given that Quebec didn't want to move him and the NHL essential forced their hand, opening up a bidding war between many of the wealthier teams. I think it's completely unlikely to see a similar deal happen under the current CBA because you simply cannot give back that many roster players and take on such large salary for Nash and expect to fill those holes. Hence why any trade is likely to be 50% salary dump and 50% draft picks and prospects which may or may not turn out - making it very hard for Columbus to get fair value. That's what I feel, anyways.
On February 29 2012 02:25 Flaccid wrote: Has that ever happened? Are there any instances we can look at where a star player has been 'forced to play' when already vocal about wanting to be moved? I can't recall any scenarios where a player was begrudgingly held on to until a 'good' deal was reached.
I don't mean to discount the possibility, but I'm curious to see if any comparables exist - otherwise it is somewhat too speculative for my liking.
They found a trade they were looking for (Corey Perry and a 1st (Ladislav Smid, Ironically..)) however that fell through because of money issues.
Oh man, old wounds. I remember that trade and the 'money issues' being the asshole Oilers demanding that Comrie pay back his bonus - what dicks. I hate this goddamn team.
I'd argue that the Lindros deal was a special case given that Quebec didn't want to move him and the NHL essential forced their hand, opening up a bidding war between many of the wealthier teams. I think it's completely unlikely to see a similar deal happen under the current CBA because you simply cannot give back that many roster players and take on such large salary for Nash and expect to fill those holes. Hence why any trade is likely to be 50% salary dump and 50% draft picks and prospects which may or may not turn out - making it very hard for Columbus to get fair value. That's what I feel, anyways.
Either way, I appreciate the examples =)
Yes, yes I know. To be fair, for a small market team it is kind of a douche move to pay like 15% of your operating costs to some young stud to just sign, then have him fuck off right after.
And while the circumstances on the Lindros deal were slightly different it amounts to the same thing. An unhappy star player doesn't want to play, for whatever a trade is forced. Nash is a difference maker, there is no reason for Howson to put a deadline on it... who knows, Nash might lick his wounds, apologies, and lace em up like nothing ever happened.
And yeah, Hockey trades don't really happen anymore unfortunately. But the fact that the majkority of the return will be futures and a cap dump means that CBJ doesn't even really lose anything from having Nash in the press box anyway... except for negative press but for a bubble team any press is better than no press anyway.
On February 28 2012 08:17 Scrandom wrote: I am so mad at the Canucks for trading hodgson, not his fault vigneault hates certain players and gives them no icetime and puts a should be first liner on the third line
So where do you play someone that's clearly a natural center in the top 6 on the Canucks? He's not going to replace Hank or Kesler anytime soon.
There's no doubt that Hodgson would have (and still will) continued to become a better player, but with the Canucks he'd be stuck on the 3rd line for a long time. I don't think the Canucks (or Hodgson for that matter) wanted that to be the long term solution.
Sure, he's playing solid on the 3rd line and them trading him kills a bit of the Canucks identity, but in the long term Kassian is more the sort of player they want on the third line, and with Pahlsson coming in Hodgson was probably going to get the short end come playoffs anyway.
They're also thinking even further ahead to the Summer when they are likely to move Schneider for another major piece.
I liked the guy, and I'm sad to see him go, but the trade does make some sense. Overall I like it, but time will tell how it really turned out.
What happens in the playoffs if someone gets hurt? Last year Kesler was a shadow in the finals because of his hip. Hodgson is your insurance. It is the same reason you don't trade Schneider until the draft. And even if Kassian is the kind of guy you want on your third line, you don't trade a top-6 forward, and potential first line guy, to get him.
Fucking awful.
I will miss thee, Cody Hodgson. Alain Vigneault is just too ham-handed with developing players :/
I like the Pahlsson move though, hopefully Kesler can just focus on offence now.
Yeah, just look at how players like Burrows, Kesler, Bieksa and Edler turned out. What a terrible job with them.
On February 28 2012 08:17 Scrandom wrote: I am so mad at the Canucks for trading hodgson, not his fault vigneault hates certain players and gives them no icetime and puts a should be first liner on the third line
So where do you play someone that's clearly a natural center in the top 6 on the Canucks? He's not going to replace Hank or Kesler anytime soon.
There's no doubt that Hodgson would have (and still will) continued to become a better player, but with the Canucks he'd be stuck on the 3rd line for a long time. I don't think the Canucks (or Hodgson for that matter) wanted that to be the long term solution.
Sure, he's playing solid on the 3rd line and them trading him kills a bit of the Canucks identity, but in the long term Kassian is more the sort of player they want on the third line, and with Pahlsson coming in Hodgson was probably going to get the short end come playoffs anyway.
They're also thinking even further ahead to the Summer when they are likely to move Schneider for another major piece.
I liked the guy, and I'm sad to see him go, but the trade does make some sense. Overall I like it, but time will tell how it really turned out.
What happens in the playoffs if someone gets hurt? Last year Kesler was a shadow in the finals because of his hip. Hodgson is your insurance. It is the same reason you don't trade Schneider until the draft. And even if Kassian is the kind of guy you want on your third line, you don't trade a top-6 forward, and potential first line guy, to get him.
Fucking awful.
I will miss thee, Cody Hodgson. Alain Vigneault is just too ham-handed with developing players :/
I like the Pahlsson move though, hopefully Kesler can just focus on offence now.
Yeah, just look at how players like Burrows, Kesler, Bieksa and Edler turned out. What a terrible job with them.
Edler was actually very good it's just that no-one actually went to see him play on Sweden except for Detriot and Canucks
Again, what iCanada said re Nash. And Nash's whole "I was doing it for the team" shtick is just sad. No one made you sign that albatross of a contract buddy!
Also, re Phalson. Canuck fans, you have to realize that while in 2007 Phalson was a great shut down center he is no longer so. So this dream of Kessler suddenly being unshackled and allowed to 'go back to his 41 goal' season is just that, a dream. Phalson will play a series as the shut down guy because the Canucks will play vs someone crappy in 7th or 8th and then when they have to play a Central Division team in the 2nd round Phalson will go back to the press box.
A toxic asset isn't going to try very hard. They become an anchor on the cap, poison in the locker room. Letting that fester for a long period of time does not reflect well on the organization. players talk, they all know who the shitheads gms are and that come around back during the signing phase. In trades, rival gms sense the weakness, especially when the player has a NMC with a list of only five teams and a veto power over all trades.
Oh no, Nash isnt going to try very hard. Instead of finishing 26th they will finish 30th. Quite frankly this is better for Columbus than Nash 'trying' and still doing nothing. The only people who would disagree with this are Flames Owners/GMs who think that racing for that all crucial 9th spot in the West and never actually doing any rebuilding via the draft is a viable strategy. But I guess at least Iginla got to play a Stanley Cup Finals series, once. Unlike Nash, who will never get there.
And iCanada is right, some desperate GM will pull the trigger on Nash and overpay for him once he feels his ass is in the sling. So probably Brian Burke next year when the Leafs are again looking for that 10th spot finish his 'truculent' team scrambled towards.
Watch the newspapers blame the goaltending again when the reality is the boys are hanging Reimer/Gustavsson out to dry.
Show some more emotion; come out to compete. Stop watching the play develop around you and become apart of the play.
They have to be more responsible in their own end and they have to stop feeling sorry for themselves. -_-
It's been an ongoing problem throughout the entire year. Even at the beginning of the season. This team is so slow out of the gate and I'm sure the long ceremonies don't help as Don Cherry put it. Way too many long ceremonies throughout this season. I can show up twenty minutes late to the game and not miss the puck drop.
The organization puts so much focus on the past because the present is shit.
On February 29 2012 09:45 Sub40APM wrote: Again, what iCanada said re Nash. And Nash's whole "I was doing it for the team" shtick is just sad. No one made you sign that albatross of a contract buddy!
Also, re Phalson. Canuck fans, you have to realize that while in 2007 Phalson was a great shut down center he is no longer so. So this dream of Kessler suddenly being unshackled and allowed to 'go back to his 41 goal' season is just that, a dream. Phalson will play a series as the shut down guy because the Canucks will play vs someone crappy in 7th or 8th and then when they have to play a Central Division team in the 2nd round Phalson will go back to the press box.
On what are you basing this? He may not be as good, but he's still a quality shut down player. Incidentally, his name is Pahlsson. Phalson is not even close.
On February 29 2012 13:48 RezChi wrote: Sedins no goal, Kesler no goal, Kassian takes a penalty and only hits with 1 shot for your top 2 secondary scorer that is also a Rookie? wow.
Yeah you're right. It has been 60 minutes. BLOW IT UP! KASSIAN DIDN'T SCORE A HAT TRICK! SEND HIM TO THE ECHL!
On February 29 2012 13:48 RezChi wrote: Sedins no goal, Kesler no goal, Kassian takes a penalty and only hits with 1 shot for your top 2 secondary scorer that is also a Rookie? wow.
Yeah you're right. It has been 60 minutes. BLOW IT UP! KASSIAN DIDN'T SCORE A HAT TRICK! SEND HIM TO THE ECHL!
On February 29 2012 13:48 RezChi wrote: Sedins no goal, Kesler no goal, Kassian takes a penalty and only hits with 1 shot for your top 2 secondary scorer that is also a Rookie? wow.
Yeah you're right. It has been 60 minutes. BLOW IT UP! KASSIAN DIDN'T SCORE A HAT TRICK! SEND HIM TO THE ECHL!
It's against Pheonix, which we general destory.
I believe that the last game between these two teams also went to a shootout. I could be wrong, but maybe the 'yotes aren't as bad as you think? It was actually a very good, and I'd say the lack of offense was more due to the incredible goal-keeping on both sides.
EPT
