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On December 02 2014 07:02 Nagisama wrote:
It's a much better damage control statement than anything else fnatic has put out. I'm sure they did try sending a person on T side, which is why some of their other statements were something along the lines of "this is pretty easy to counter, you can go here or here, and just snipe the guy boosted". They just never tried it in a scrim because that would defeat the entire purpose of the surprise in a tournament game. Problem was just that no one else knew where they were boosted from until like 10 rounds into that half.
Maybe, but it's still a pretty shitty "damage control statement" if you ask me. It's clear in my mind that he's BSing everyone with that statement. They knew very well how gamebreaking this boost was just like they knew very well the rules of previous tournaments where it was stipulated that such boost was illegal. After years of playing the same game, if you still don't know the rules, then you deserve your sanction/hate. At least that's my opinion.
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Its only against the rules because of a technicality (some walls get invisible, but that happens with other boosts aswell) but really it got banned because it was too good.
Ive got mixed feelings about this. On the one hand it doesnt show good sportsmanship to win like that. On the other hand these guys are pros and they want to win at all costs. When they find something in the map that is really good i can understand that they dont imediatly think "hang on thats too good, people wont like to see that in a game".
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On December 02 2014 07:23 Elroi wrote:
Its only against the rules because of a technicality (some walls get invisible, but that happens with other boosts aswell) but really it got banned because it was too good.
Ive got mixed feelings about this. On the one hand it doesnt show good sportsmanship to win like that. On the other hand these guys are pros and they want to win at all costs. When they find something in the map that is really good i can understand that they dont imediatly think "hang on thats too good, people wont like to see that in a game".
It's very easy to put any nagging doubts out of your brain when you are in such a competitive mindset. The fnatic players are not to blame in this case. Maybe the management or some other person who is responsible for their out of game stuff can be blamed (if they were aware of it), but even that can be forgiven.
Fnatic did the right thing in the end, and that's what matters.
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I still don't see anything wrong with the boost. To me it's just finding a new OP strat and abusing it. Can you imagine being the first person to find out about 6 pool and no one else in the competitive scene knows about it? If I'm them I'm sitting on it, too. Two months they sat on it? Who cares. Sit on it for two years and bust it out in the finals of the Esports Olympics 2016.
If I'm them I don't think it's a bug. There's a ledge there, and I'm not going into hammer to confirm that the ledge I can clearly see is in fact a ledge. Why would I? It gives a HUGE competitive advantage, and at the end of the day I praise their map knowledge for finding it.
Another example is like finding a ridiculous combo in magic that no one knows about, showing up at the next tourney with it, and destroying. Then the meta shifts to account for it. The advantage that LDLC had was that they could adapt during the game. They were too slow, and they were punished for it. They deserved to lose.
This is coming from someone who just got their AK, though. I probably haven't been in the scene long enough to develop an appreciation for how you're supposed to win.
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They didn't find it, they found out about it on reddit and then got the poster to take it down so nobody else would find out.
Anyways, in regards to the boost, they screwed up, behaved like idiots, then whined, now they're finally apologizing. Mistakes were made, it'll take a long time until I will find myself cheering for Fnatic again but if they improve themselves in the future, it will happen.
That's only in relation to the boosting nonsense, not the potential cheating scandal. That's a different story. We're not going to get anywhere by talking about Flusha though, since all we have is anecdotal evidence. For some people that's not enough, for others it is. We'll just have to wait it out and see.
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An unintended boost above normal height limitations on an invisible ledge giving invisible textures at the highest point of the map overlooking almost the entirety OF the map, requiring so much fuckery to accomplish three people and an object are required.
Please, what other spot in the history of CS was remotely close to this and was allowed? (Fuck it, which ones were banned too, ive never heard of anything like it. Make it a history lesson for me)
It isn't about "good sportsmanship" or it being "anti-fun" and people not wanting to see it at all. If that was intended and legit it would have never made it into ANY tournament map-pool in the first place simply because it is absolutely bonkers fucking broken.
Thats not even going into how shadily fnatic went about using it either.
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On December 02 2014 07:33 Capped wrote:
An unintended boost above normal height limitations on an invisible ledge giving invisible textures at the highest point of the map overlooking almost the entirety OF the map, requiring so much fuckery to accomplish three people and an object are required.
Please, what other spot in the history of CS was remotely close to this and was allowed? (Fuck it, which ones were banned too, ive never heard of anything like it. Make it a history lesson for me)
It isn't about "good sportsmanship" or it being "anti-fun" and people not wanting to see it at all. If that was intended and legit it would have never made it into ANY tournament map-pool in the first place simply because it is absolutely bonkers fucking broken.
Thats not even going into how shadily fnatic went about using it either.
There was the smokes over the wall on Cbble from T spawn to B in 1.6 that some Aussie team used to take down 3D at CPL Summer 2002(?) I think. It created plenty of drama and while the result stood, the smokes were banned from most of the tournaments that took place shortly after. Cbble ended up being dropped from most tourney's not long after that as well.
EDIT: Err I guess that was still 1.5 at that time.
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Okay first off, pixelwalking is fucking ILLEGAL in like every single CSGO tournament. So when you say they found something innovative, NO they fucking didn't. Just because Dreamhack didn't "update" their rules, their PREVIOUS ones had Pixelwalking banned. How can you imagine it would be legal all of a sudden?
"Brain, engage it." - Richard Lewis
+ Show Spoiler +
What I want to know is, how do Fnatic know the rules aren't updated? What do they do in reaction? They abuse the rules, counter claim stuff and be scummy in general. Their behavior is just very unprofessional imo.
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There was a game breaking flash bug on dust2, where you could flash tunnels perfectly from outside of bomb spot b
+ Show Spoiler +
..but doesn`matter :>
While i have to agree, and couldn´t have worded it better than Capped, i disagree at the part that it isn`t about good sportsmanship. It is. Abusing bugs like this does effect the other team, as they for sure get out of their mindset in several ways. And the bucharest incident was simply put - embarrassing.
If there were an organisation like kespa, fnatic would have been fined, rightfully.
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On December 02 2014 02:34 Demonhunter04 wrote:
You don't need a census to draw conclusions. And comparing data really will control for the problems with 16 tick demos. Besides, 128 tick pov demos of players in their matches do exist, and can be used instead if you really think it's a dealbreaker. They only allow you to see that player's perspective, and not every match will have a 128 tick demo available, so that also limits the amount of data you can draw. Extrapolations between 64 ms (aka 16 tick) lose less useful information than using pov demos that restrict you to 1 player's view do.
Again, comparing a bunch of 16-tick demos doesn't control for the resolution error... and since the problems with the demos are a result of that resolution error, the original problem remains. I guess it's like trying to identify faces on a super low resolution camera and saying... here we have a super low res picture of a suspect, is that suspect in any of the photos? Even if 2 of those blurry faces matched, the resolution error would mean that you couldn't make any conclusion based off of that comparison. The point at which you decide "how blurry is too blurry" (or "how low a tick rate is too low") is when you can't distinguish two known different situations apart - for that I'd refer to the d2 clip of 128v16 tick.
The one player view is more valuable because all that people are looking for is mouse movements that are inconsistent with normal play.
Amusingly, the hacks that he's been accused of using do not actually operate in this way anyway. (they do not alter mouse movement or aim).
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On December 02 2014 07:28 NihiLStarcraft wrote:
They didn't find it, they found out about it on reddit and then got the poster to take it down so nobody else would find out.
The boost has been up on youtube for over 6 months already.
It had not been posted on reddit afaik.
Regardless, it hardly matters how the position was found... Dreamhack should have been clear about whether the spot was legal or not the moment it was used in the map. It's just a boost like any other. The problem lies in the fact that it was an unintentional boost. At that point, the map is essentially broken. They could have had a rematch on another map from the pool and been done with it.
This community outrage bandwagoning is really disturbing... so many people parroting one another.
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On December 02 2014 08:37 magicmUnky wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2014 02:34 Demonhunter04 wrote:
You don't need a census to draw conclusions. And comparing data really will control for the problems with 16 tick demos. Besides, 128 tick pov demos of players in their matches do exist, and can be used instead if you really think it's a dealbreaker. They only allow you to see that player's perspective, and not every match will have a 128 tick demo available, so that also limits the amount of data you can draw. Extrapolations between 64 ms (aka 16 tick) lose less useful information than using pov demos that restrict you to 1 player's view do.
Again, comparing a bunch of 16-tick demos doesn't control for the resolution error... and since the problems with the demos are a result of that resolution error, the original problem remains. I guess it's like trying to identify faces on a super low resolution camera and saying... here we have a super low res picture of a suspect, is that suspect in any of the photos? Even if 2 of those blurry faces matched, the resolution error would mean that you couldn't make any conclusion based off of that comparison. The point at which you decide "how blurry is too blurry" (or "how low a tick rate is too low") is when you can't distinguish two known different situations apart - for that I'd refer to the d2 clip of 128v16 tick. The one player view is more valuable because all that people are looking for is mouse movements that are inconsistent with normal play. Amusingly, the hacks that he's been accused of using do not actually operate in this way anyway. (they do not alter mouse movement or aim).
flusha's hacks are suspected to be a different hack. regardless of the "resolution error", the strange movements from flusha are not natural or logically in any way. they are very suspicious whether you think he hacks or not.
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On December 02 2014 08:45 magicmUnky wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2014 07:28 NihiLStarcraft wrote:
They didn't find it, they found out about it on reddit and then got the poster to take it down so nobody else would find out.
The boost has been up on youtube for over 6 months already. It had not been posted on reddit afaik. Regardless, it hardly matters how the position was found... Dreamhack should have been clear about whether the spot was legal or not the moment it was used in the map. It's just a boost like any other. The problem lies in the fact that it was an unintentional boost. At that point, the map is essentially broken. They could have had a rematch on another map from the pool and been done with it. This community outrage bandwagoning is really disturbing... so many people parroting one another.
word.
and yeah as people well know, once something gets deleted from the internet, it's just gone. *poof*
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On December 02 2014 07:28 NihiLStarcraft wrote:
They didn't find it, they found out about it on reddit and then got the poster to take it down so nobody else would find out.
Anyways, in regards to the boost, they screwed up, behaved like idiots, then whined, now they're finally apologizing. Mistakes were made, it'll take a long time until I will find myself cheering for Fnatic again but if they improve themselves in the future, it will happen.
That's only in relation to the boosting nonsense, not the potential cheating scandal. That's a different story. We're not going to get anywhere by talking about Flusha though, since all we have is anecdotal evidence. For some people that's not enough, for others it is. We'll just have to wait it out and see.
Uninformed people like you make this discussion so much more toxic.
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On December 02 2014 08:04 Striker.superfreunde wrote:There was a game breaking flash bug on dust2, where you could flash tunnels perfectly from outside of bomb spot b + Show Spoiler +..but doesn`matter :> While i have to agree, and couldn´t have worded it better than Capped, i disagree at the part that it isn`t about good sportsmanship. It is. Abusing bugs like this does effect the other team, as they for sure get out of their mindset in several ways. And the bucharest incident was simply put - embarrassing. If there were an organisation like kespa, fnatic would have been fined, rightfully.
good ol' flash bugs, proper wallbangs and boosting through the container at nuke
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On December 02 2014 09:00 Risen wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2014 07:28 NihiLStarcraft wrote:
They didn't find it, they found out about it on reddit and then got the poster to take it down so nobody else would find out.
Anyways, in regards to the boost, they screwed up, behaved like idiots, then whined, now they're finally apologizing. Mistakes were made, it'll take a long time until I will find myself cheering for Fnatic again but if they improve themselves in the future, it will happen.
That's only in relation to the boosting nonsense, not the potential cheating scandal. That's a different story. We're not going to get anywhere by talking about Flusha though, since all we have is anecdotal evidence. For some people that's not enough, for others it is. We'll just have to wait it out and see. Uninformed people like you make this discussion so much more toxic.
?
Here I go trying to be neutral about it and saying what I think and that makes the discussion toxic how exactly?
Seriously, if we could just stop calling each other names and being so damn immature all the time. I believe the boost was BS, I do personally think Flusha was hacking. That's my opinion. I respect your opinion that the boost was fine and that Flusha probably wasn't hacking.
That's what I was trying to say. Not sure what's toxic about it except your response tbh. Also, in what way am I uninformed please? The fact that the boost was posted about on reddit and then removed has been mentioned and confirmed by a lot of individual reddit users and has been taken as true from me and several pros at least, if that was not the case, sorry. Obviously NONE of the other teams apart from Fnatic knew about it, as they said in interviews, so... yeah.
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On December 02 2014 09:09 NihiLStarcraft wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2014 09:00 Risen wrote:On December 02 2014 07:28 NihiLStarcraft wrote:
They didn't find it, they found out about it on reddit and then got the poster to take it down so nobody else would find out.
Anyways, in regards to the boost, they screwed up, behaved like idiots, then whined, now they're finally apologizing. Mistakes were made, it'll take a long time until I will find myself cheering for Fnatic again but if they improve themselves in the future, it will happen.
That's only in relation to the boosting nonsense, not the potential cheating scandal. That's a different story. We're not going to get anywhere by talking about Flusha though, since all we have is anecdotal evidence. For some people that's not enough, for others it is. We'll just have to wait it out and see. Uninformed people like you make this discussion so much more toxic. ? Here I go trying to be neutral about it and saying what I think and that makes the discussion toxic how exactly? Seriously, if we could just stop calling each other names and being so damn immature all the time. I believe the boost was BS, I do personally think Flusha was hacking. That's my opinion. I respect your opinion that the boost was fine and that Flusha probably wasn't hacking. That's what I was trying to say. Not sure what's toxic about it except your response tbh. Also, in what way am I uninformed please? The fact that the boost was posted about on reddit and then removed has been mentioned and confirmed by a lot of individual reddit users and has been taken as true from me and several pros at least, if that was not the case, sorry. Obviously NONE of the other teams apart from Fnatic knew about it, as they said in interviews, so... yeah.
Spouting worthless speculation like "They didn't find it, they found out about it on reddit and then got the poster to take it down so nobody else would find out." that you read somewhere and didn't bother fact checking sullies any informative discussion that could happen because people simply take your word as fact.
Edit: I don't mind you having an opinion that is different than mine. I mind you spreading false/unconfirmed rumors in support of your position.
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On December 02 2014 08:03 Slardar wrote:Okay first off, pixelwalking is fucking ILLEGAL in like every single CSGO tournament. So when you say they found something innovative, NO they fucking didn't. Just because Dreamhack didn't "update" their rules, their PREVIOUS ones had Pixelwalking banned. How can you imagine it would be legal all of a sudden? "Brain, engage it." - Richard Lewis + Show Spoiler +
What I want to know is, how do Fnatic know the rules aren't updated? What do they do in reaction? They abuse the rules, counter claim stuff and be scummy in general. Their behavior is just very unprofessional imo.
This is a much better post.
I saw a post on reddit that I've been searching for but can't find that asked why pixelwalking is suddenly such a big deal. It included a ton of pictures showing various pixelwalks around maps like dust that pros commonly use. Why is there suddenly a big deal being made about this particular pixelwalk? Because it was used to such effect by an unpopular team?
Until I find the link it's very possible that the posted images are in fact not pixelwalks, though, and the poster of them was wrong.
Edit: I remember one of them being the jump up spot in CT spawn on dust2 at box. I'm going to try and get a screenshot of myself in game.
Edit 2: Here's a link that's similar to the comment I'm referring to.
http://www.hltv.org/blog/9094-pixelwalk-fnatic-ldlc-and-bullying
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On December 02 2014 09:11 Risen wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2014 09:09 NihiLStarcraft wrote:On December 02 2014 09:00 Risen wrote:On December 02 2014 07:28 NihiLStarcraft wrote:
They didn't find it, they found out about it on reddit and then got the poster to take it down so nobody else would find out.
Anyways, in regards to the boost, they screwed up, behaved like idiots, then whined, now they're finally apologizing. Mistakes were made, it'll take a long time until I will find myself cheering for Fnatic again but if they improve themselves in the future, it will happen.
That's only in relation to the boosting nonsense, not the potential cheating scandal. That's a different story. We're not going to get anywhere by talking about Flusha though, since all we have is anecdotal evidence. For some people that's not enough, for others it is. We'll just have to wait it out and see. Uninformed people like you make this discussion so much more toxic. ? Here I go trying to be neutral about it and saying what I think and that makes the discussion toxic how exactly? Seriously, if we could just stop calling each other names and being so damn immature all the time. I believe the boost was BS, I do personally think Flusha was hacking. That's my opinion. I respect your opinion that the boost was fine and that Flusha probably wasn't hacking. That's what I was trying to say. Not sure what's toxic about it except your response tbh. Also, in what way am I uninformed please? The fact that the boost was posted about on reddit and then removed has been mentioned and confirmed by a lot of individual reddit users and has been taken as true from me and several pros at least, if that was not the case, sorry. Obviously NONE of the other teams apart from Fnatic knew about it, as they said in interviews, so... yeah. Spouting worthless speculation like "They didn't find it, they found out about it on reddit and then got the poster to take it down so nobody else would find out." that you read somewhere and didn't bother fact checking sullies any informative discussion that could happen because people simply take your word as fact. Edit: I don't mind you having an opinion that is different than mine. I mind you spreading false/unconfirmed rumors in support of your position.
A lot of individual Reddit posters confirmed that the video/reddit post was up but then taken down. The creator of the video confirmed this as well. I see no reason to assume they're all lying.
Anyways, I won't post about the Fnatic situation anymore because I've stated my opinion already and it's really not helping as I've said before. Just a bunch of people angry at a bunch of other people for their respective opinions and vice versa. Whether or not the boost was 'ethical' is a personal subjective matter and so are the Flusha allegations without hard evidence. I would be happy if maybe a couple more people would call it quits on the endless discussion and focus on the game again! 
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On December 02 2014 09:03 Stancel wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2014 08:04 Striker.superfreunde wrote:There was a game breaking flash bug on dust2, where you could flash tunnels perfectly from outside of bomb spot b + Show Spoiler +..but doesn`matter :> While i have to agree, and couldn´t have worded it better than Capped, i disagree at the part that it isn`t about good sportsmanship. It is. Abusing bugs like this does effect the other team, as they for sure get out of their mindset in several ways. And the bucharest incident was simply put - embarrassing. If there were an organisation like kespa, fnatic would have been fined, rightfully. good ol' flash bugs, proper wallbangs and boosting through the container at nuke
dem nightmares. They sat everywhere, abused everythig lol
#5on5 mixed pirate skill on!
(no twitter)
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EPT
