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On October 08 2014 00:07 Miragee wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2014 00:01 vndestiny wrote:On October 07 2014 23:58 Miragee wrote:On October 07 2014 23:46 Sn0_Man wrote:
You can never ever compare "increased" to "more".
With a WED gem, you get "More WED" the same way with a Melee Phys gem u get "More Phys".
Ur cold damage that you get CONVERTED FROM PHYS is affected by ALL PHYS MULTIPLIERS including the "increased" (which adds with any cold increases) and the "More" which always multiplies with everything. Technically you could say that the "more" phys occurs before conversion but as we all know 1*2*3 = 3*1*2 the order doesn't matter with multiplication.
So you can't compare "200 increase 0 more" with "100 increase 100 more" cuz all u learn is that more is better, which we always knew. More is just a very difficult thing to get. It's got nothing to do with "increased cold is better than increased phys" or w/e.
Yes, technically the ability to have extra "more" multipliers is a reason to convert damage, but I'd argue it's rarely worth the effort for that alone.
This is why crown of eyes + pain attunement was so OP and why GGG removed any "More" effects from the CoE damage application. But more "more" effects aren't always better. Complete balance with increased modifiers are the optimal effeciency. If you have 100% more dmg but 0% increased dmg in a dmg conversion then a 10% increased dmg mod should do more than a 10% more dmg mod. That is, until both reach 100%. But that's pure theory, ingame you will never have more "more dmg" mods than you have increased effects. Added a third example to demonstrate: 3. 0% increased phys, 0% increased fire, 200% more WED 100*(1+0+0)*3=300 Yes it is, because 'more' modifier is always equal or better than an 'increase' modifier of the same value. The equal part only happen when there's absolutely no other increase modifier, which is ofc, problem only happen when you're lvl 1-5. Hm, no it should be a Gauß-like curve (just the trend of the curve) where the maximum is reached when you have the same percent of "more" modifier and "increased" modifiers, shouldn't it? If you shift the percentages in my examples a bit you shouldn't reach 400 dmg with any combination but the middle one. Of course you get more dmg if you have the option to increase either modifier to a percentage that exceeds that in the example. But that wasn't my point.
I think you have a misconception like Sno said in previous page. Look at the formula again.
Dmg = base * ( 1 + 'increase' modifier 1 + ' increase' modifier 2' + ...) * ( 1 + 'more' modifier 1 ) * ( 1 + 'more' modifier 2 ) * ...
As you can see, when increase mod 1 = more mod 1 ( let's say 30% increase vs 30% more ), only case it's equal is when there's no increase modifier 2.
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On October 08 2014 00:01 vndestiny wrote:Show nested quote +On October 07 2014 23:58 Miragee wrote:On October 07 2014 23:46 Sn0_Man wrote:
You can never ever compare "increased" to "more".
With a WED gem, you get "More WED" the same way with a Melee Phys gem u get "More Phys".
Ur cold damage that you get CONVERTED FROM PHYS is affected by ALL PHYS MULTIPLIERS including the "increased" (which adds with any cold increases) and the "More" which always multiplies with everything. Technically you could say that the "more" phys occurs before conversion but as we all know 1*2*3 = 3*1*2 the order doesn't matter with multiplication.
So you can't compare "200 increase 0 more" with "100 increase 100 more" cuz all u learn is that more is better, which we always knew. More is just a very difficult thing to get. It's got nothing to do with "increased cold is better than increased phys" or w/e.
Yes, technically the ability to have extra "more" multipliers is a reason to convert damage, but I'd argue it's rarely worth the effort for that alone.
This is why crown of eyes + pain attunement was so OP and why GGG removed any "More" effects from the CoE damage application. But more "more" effects aren't always better. Complete balance with increased modifiers are the optimal effeciency. If you have 100% more dmg but 0% increased dmg in a dmg conversion then a 10% increased dmg mod should do more than a 10% more dmg mod. That is, until both reach 100%. But that's pure theory, ingame you will never have more "more dmg" mods than you have increased effects. Added a third example to demonstrate: 3. 0% increased phys, 0% increased fire, 200% more WED 100*(1+0+0)*3=300 Yes it is, because 'more' modifier is always equal or better than an 'increase' modifier of the same value. The equal part only happen when there's absolutely no other increase modifier, which is ofc, problem only happen when you're lvl 1-5.
Hm, no it should be a Gauß-like curve (just the trend of the curve) where the maximum is reached when you have the same percent of "more" modifier and "increased" modifiers, shouldn't it? If you shift the percentages in my examples a bit you shouldn't reach 400 dmg with any combination but the middle one. Of course you get more dmg if you have the option to increase either modifier to a percentage that exceeds that in the example. But that wasn't my point.
On October 08 2014 00:03 Sn0_Man wrote:
Ur kinda doing "more" wrong. if I have 100% more 0% increase and I "add" 10% more, as long as it's a different source its a new multiplier.
So basically in ur "200% more" scenario, you'd probably have something like "50% more wed" "120 % more wed" "30% more wed" so u end up with 1*1.5*2.2*1.3 = way more than 3.
Ok forget what I said earlier. That explains everything. Thank you! 
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Well glad you got it by now
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On October 07 2014 23:08 Sn0_Man wrote:
@Daumen: Most people use avatar of fire to proliferate burns. Because the damage of a burn is based on the FIRE damage of the initial hit, most people simply want the biggest fire hit they can get. Which with weapons is always a very high phys hit converted to fire, but it can be hard to convert ALL the damage to fire without the keystone. Other damage conversion tools include a unique quiver (blackgleam) that obviously not every build can use. The keystone is often the simplest way, with limited drawbacks if your intention is simply to hit them with a big fire hit.
I get it, I think.
If I lose half my Physical damage by converting it, it might get way better since Flammabillity and Nodes affect the damage, thus the "50% of physical dmg" might do way more dmg as Fire damage.
Thanks for the explanation Sn0, but I was wondering about this specific case, my Burn is not based on the Fire Damage of the Initial hit, its based on the Overkill damage on 1 Target.
I believe NOT skilling it is better for me, since I actually plan to play a completely different build in high level I actually did not skill any WED Nodes or Fire dmg nodes, only Burn Damage nodes. Since +Burn Damage doesnt increase my HIT Damage, skilling AoF would reduce my damage rather than Increase it (I use Flamability, but not Fire Pen).
Also I have 5-6% Physical Life leech and no 5L (so I wont use a Life Leech gem atm).
So TL;DR; What "Ota Solgryn" said: All the Nodes and the Flammabillity curse boost the damage so high that the 50% conversion is actually more than the 100% Physical damage.
(Why the f did I not see this °_°)
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Well, using Herald of Ash to start ur burns isn't nearly so reliable (damage wise) as using say Burning Arrow/infernal blow + chance to ignite imho but w/e up to you dude.
If i didn't have to worry about status debuffs or w/e I'd prefer phys dmg every time though.
In other news who knew atziri's drop table got changed to only flasks (I kid but seriously -_-)
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I'm at 14 in a row, and 15 out of 17 total for flasks... I feel your pain :p
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I'm actually just grinding her for the shot at a mortal hope atm, I've found one and wanna try it again but mentally I can't handle forking over ~3.5ex for it (even though thats definitely cheaper than trying to find one when sac sets are 15c each).
Also when its not flasks is basement-rolled boots or something.
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Well......guess HC isn't for me. Was doing a zany Mountain Ledge map cleared it up, last thing in the center..... is a rare Arcanist's box. +5 Level, Spawns Exile, Contains +6 items, and casts Frost Nova. Entirety of PoE froze as I clicked it, ALT F4 closed the game in 2 seconds, turned out I still died. Fuck 
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yeah boxes freeze ur game when they spawn exiles quite commonly cuz it has to load all the exiles shit (microtrans, etc). 6 item arcanist so good tho QQ unfortunate
funcore time? >_>
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Never happened before, I usually roll +Exile or +Rare/Magic mobs on the boxes. This time completely froze....that +5 Nova must've decimated my poor Ranger. FML, just when I got into mapping and it was all going well. It was all an illusion, Exile.
Yeah Funcore time.
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How scared should I be as a melee character coming up on Piety and later Dominus in normal?
My only other solo Dominus kill (in softcore) can be summed up to lots of death and abuse of curse-removal flask in phase two...
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for piety: kill the blue portals and if she gets to one just hide behind a pillar. Beyond that intelligent flask useage and decent hp/lightning resist will see you through no problem.
For dominus: Phase 1 is easy, just avoid tanking all his very dodgeable stuff. For phase 2, STAND INSIDE THE BUBBLE when its up and bring "of staunching" flasks if you have them. Consider transmute+alterationing a flask for the "of staunching" suffix to remove bleeds (the red orbs floating around you + ur hp dropping fast means ur bleeding). Dominus doesn't curse.
Its mostly dependant on ur HP though.
PS: Don't be afraid to TP-abuse. Always have a portal up nearby and don't be afraid to run through it if you think you are going to die. I once used 13 TP scrolls on dominus (before I understood the "STAND IN THE BUBBLE" mechanic) and there wasn't any problem with that.
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For some reason, my anti-curse flask worked back then.
I had tons of latency issues in P1 though, totems would be up and beaming before completely cast...
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Dominus isn't really an issue if you know what you are doing. Piety is much more gear dependend. Sno sums it up pretty nicely. I would add that I prefer to cap my ele res before attempting Piety which shouldn't be much of a problem really. Also aim for more than 1k hp. 1500+ is comfortable. Of course it's managable with less than 1k but with 1500+ and 75 fire res + flask you can easily tank the fire form.
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On October 21 2014 05:57 Sn0_Man wrote:
for piety: kill the blue portals and if she gets to one just hide behind a pillar. Beyond that intelligent flask useage and decent hp/lightning resist will see you through no problem.
For dominus: Phase 1 is easy, just avoid tanking all his very dodgeable stuff. For phase 2, STAND INSIDE THE BUBBLE when its up and bring "of staunching" flasks if you have them. Consider transmute+alterationing a flask for the "of staunching" suffix to remove bleeds (the red orbs floating around you + ur hp dropping fast means ur bleeding). Dominus doesn't curse.
Its mostly dependant on ur HP though.
PS: Don't be afraid to TP-abuse. Always have a portal up nearby and don't be afraid to run through it if you think you are going to die. I once used 13 TP scrolls on dominus (before I understood the "STAND IN THE BUBBLE" mechanic) and there wasn't any problem with that.
I wouldn't waste your transmutes/alts on a flask for normal or cruel. If you get one randomly great, but it is far cheaper to portal scum it.
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On October 21 2014 06:47 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:
I wouldn't waste your transmutes/alts on a flask for normal or cruel. If you get one randomly great, but it is far cheaper to portal scum it.
I disagree. Flasks are awesome and especially on HC I think spending a few transmutes and alts is worth the added protection you can get from rolls like Seething. I love instant flasks, they have saved my ass so many times.
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On October 22 2014 08:07 MaRCsoN wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2014 06:47 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:
I wouldn't waste your transmutes/alts on a flask for normal or cruel. If you get one randomly great, but it is far cheaper to portal scum it. I disagree. Flasks are awesome and especially on HC I think spending a few transmutes and alts is worth the added protection you can get from rolls like Seething. I love instant flasks, they have saved my ass so many times.
I'd log out in that situation so a seething is pretty useless to me.
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Need someone skilled to teach me the finer points of racing
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Check through post of Varanice, LagLovah, Kju and maybe Zoroxo in this thread, sth bound to come up. These are some of the demi-winners in this thread ( except Varan, couldnt catch a break. Where is he thou )
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I've won demi's in the past, just been out of the loop so looking for the fine details rather than over arching strategies ^ ^
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EPT
