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On September 26 2014 15:59 Miragee wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2014 07:43 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:On September 26 2014 07:16 Miragee wrote:
That's one of the most stupid mechanics I have ever seen in a game, lol. "The user base complained"... I usually use and IC set up to get that done but I didn't want to use it on this char. But I guess armor just sucks and ECs and IC are the way to go. -.- My example makes armor looks really bad I guess. If you're actually putting effort into armor you should have at least 30k. I also typoed one of the numbers when I was calculating them previously which made them look even worse sorry. Edited with more realistic numbers so armor doesn't look so terrible. On September 26 2014 07:43 Tilorn91 wrote:
Holy shit I had no idea armor is so terrible for large hits... Keep in mind that when you're talking about percentage reduction the scaling isn't linear so having a percentage close to 100% is ridiculous mitigation. Well ok. But instead of investing heavily into armor nodes you could just go block + ECs + Granite. I don't feel like Armour nodes are really worth it in the current state. With close to 100% you mean 90%? Because that's the cap. And the mitigation is linear. Up to that point, each additional % of mitigation will mitigate the exact same damage of a source as the one before. In your example: If you increase the mitigation to 72 % you will take 10 dmg less (280). 73% again 10 dmg less (270). I know what you are talking about. The actual percentage of the damage mitigation increase gets higher and higher. But it doesn't really make sense to see it that way as the only thing that counts in the end is the flat dmg that hurts your life pool. And for that, the step from 72 to 73% isn't any better than the step from 89 to 90 %. Unless I'm missing something important again (like another formular).
Close to 100% is just a poor way of saying going from say 89% -> 90% is a lot more survival than going from 0% -> 1%.
A linear decrease in damage taken results in an exponential increase in survival. If I go from 0% damage reduction to 50% damage reduction I double my effective hitpoints. To double it again I only need to reach 75%. Doubling it again requires half of the remaining which means each time yields smaller and smaller percentages required for the same amount of damage mitigation.
1000 damage hits. 5000 hitpoints.
If I have 0% DR then it will take 5 hits to kill me.
If I have 25% DR then it will take 6.67 hits to kill me.
If I have 50% DR then it will take 10 hits to kill me.
If I have 75% DR then it will take 20 hits to kill me.
From these numbers you should be able to tell that a linear increase in the percentage does not actually result in a linear increase in survival.
On September 27 2014 01:15 HolydaKing wrote:
I would prefer a decent/high Armour build over any pure Evasion build any day if the later one doesn't have Lightning Coil in stash or Mind over Matter spec. My pure Eva builds all died in maps at some point. One to Undying Evangelists especially, those can be ridiculous.
I feel like the community of this game vastly overrates how terrible playing EV is and the need to use additional mitigation uniques like Coil or Cloak.
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You mean Evasion isn't so terrible? Well, at the moment a lot of people play Evasion even on HC, so I wouldn't say people underrate it. I feel Evasion alone is pretty good until mid maps, but that's it imo.
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On September 27 2014 02:05 HolydaKing wrote:
You mean Evasion isn't so terrible? Well, at the moment a lot of people play Evasion even on HC, so I wouldn't say people underrate it. I feel Evasion alone is pretty good until mid maps, but that's it imo.
I've played pure EV to level 90 so ^_^
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On September 27 2014 02:09 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 27 2014 02:05 HolydaKing wrote:
You mean Evasion isn't so terrible? Well, at the moment a lot of people play Evasion even on HC, so I wouldn't say people underrate it. I feel Evasion alone is pretty good until mid maps, but that's it imo. I've played pure EV to level 90 so ^_^
Maybe your playstyle is less relaxed than mine. :D I try to facetank everything and usually don't move much unless it's obvious that it's gonna hurt. :D
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Playing evasion is funny cuz u can run in and take virtually 0 damage and be like "oh im fine" then take 2 big hits in a row and go 100->0 near-instantly.
That said flask discipline should save you 100% of the time on evasion chars, I think they are pretty good. Outside of against bubble dudes and other physical spells.
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On September 27 2014 02:16 HolydaKing wrote:Show nested quote +On September 27 2014 02:09 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:On September 27 2014 02:05 HolydaKing wrote:
You mean Evasion isn't so terrible? Well, at the moment a lot of people play Evasion even on HC, so I wouldn't say people underrate it. I feel Evasion alone is pretty good until mid maps, but that's it imo. I've played pure EV to level 90 so ^_^ Maybe your playstyle is less relaxed than mine. :D I try to facetank everything and usually don't move much unless it's obvious that it's gonna hurt. :D
Being relaxed is how you die. If you want to be relaxed play softcore :0
On September 27 2014 02:19 Sn0_Man wrote:
Playing evasion is funny cuz u can run in and take virtually 0 damage and be like "oh im fine" then take 2 big hits in a row and go 100->0 near-instantly.
That said flask discipline should save you 100% of the time on evasion chars, I think they are pretty good. Outside of against bubble dudes and other physical spells.
One hit often takes like 90% of your health. It is quite the rush. Glacial Cascade is the worst by far. Dat shotgun so terror.
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On September 27 2014 02:33 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 27 2014 02:16 HolydaKing wrote:On September 27 2014 02:09 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:On September 27 2014 02:05 HolydaKing wrote:
You mean Evasion isn't so terrible? Well, at the moment a lot of people play Evasion even on HC, so I wouldn't say people underrate it. I feel Evasion alone is pretty good until mid maps, but that's it imo. I've played pure EV to level 90 so ^_^ Maybe your playstyle is less relaxed than mine. :D I try to facetank everything and usually don't move much unless it's obvious that it's gonna hurt. :D Being relaxed is how you die. If you want to be relaxed play softcore :0
I would, but Rampage didn't appeal to me and now I've played too much Beyond to wanna switch. Well, and my lvl 82 Flameblaster is still alive despite it. :D But he would be dead for sure if I didn't have Warlord's Mark on CWDT (I have dual Curse) which helps a lot since the monsters are already cursed when my Flameblasts comes.
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It's likely different people, but it boggles my mind a community can go from saying "Evasion is bad because it's RNG based" in open beta (even though it isn't) to singing the praises of block, which is absolutely RNG based.
I do feel as though GGG needs to figure out a way to make going armor with armor nodes the best way to achieve high armor values. It's silly the best way to get armor right now is still evasion gear+evasion nodes+grace.
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@Blitz: Teh, I'm just incredibly stupid. -.-
On September 27 2014 04:02 TheTenthDoc wrote:
It's likely different people, but it boggles my mind a community can go from saying "Evasion is bad because it's RNG based" in open beta (even though it isn't) to singing the praises of block, which is absolutely RNG based.
I do feel as though GGG needs to figure out a way to make going armor with armor nodes the best way to achieve high armor values. It's silly the best way to get armor right now is still evasion gear+evasion nodes+grace.
I agree. It's difficult though. Maybe buffing armor nodes while changing Iron Reflexes to nullify armor nodes would help. You still have a cheap way to get a lot of armor especially early in the leagues then but to reach the top, armor nodes + armor gear would be better.
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Ok in light of previous events, I decided to roll up a facebreaker based character, using infernal blow and cyclone primarily. The guide I'm gonna use is http://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/445390 , is it a good lategame character? My old spectral throw / double strike was just not up to par, so I'm looking for a new character to invest time and currencies in.
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On September 27 2014 04:20 Miragee wrote:@Blitz: Teh, I'm just incredibly stupid. -.- Show nested quote +On September 27 2014 04:02 TheTenthDoc wrote:
It's likely different people, but it boggles my mind a community can go from saying "Evasion is bad because it's RNG based" in open beta (even though it isn't) to singing the praises of block, which is absolutely RNG based.
I do feel as though GGG needs to figure out a way to make going armor with armor nodes the best way to achieve high armor values. It's silly the best way to get armor right now is still evasion gear+evasion nodes+grace. I agree. It's difficult though. Maybe buffing armor nodes while changing Iron Reflexes to nullify armor nodes would help. You still have a cheap way to get a lot of armor especially early in the leagues then but to reach the top, armor nodes + armor gear would be better.
Iron Reflexes has been terrible since it was changed to not double dip. It is a passive that is strong because its downside is the same as unwavering stance which is one of the strongest passives on the tree.
The change that made it no longer make your DEX provide %EV makes it bad enough already. It doesn't need to nullify armor nodes as well.
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On September 27 2014 05:26 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 27 2014 04:20 Miragee wrote:@Blitz: Teh, I'm just incredibly stupid. -.- On September 27 2014 04:02 TheTenthDoc wrote:
It's likely different people, but it boggles my mind a community can go from saying "Evasion is bad because it's RNG based" in open beta (even though it isn't) to singing the praises of block, which is absolutely RNG based.
I do feel as though GGG needs to figure out a way to make going armor with armor nodes the best way to achieve high armor values. It's silly the best way to get armor right now is still evasion gear+evasion nodes+grace. I agree. It's difficult though. Maybe buffing armor nodes while changing Iron Reflexes to nullify armor nodes would help. You still have a cheap way to get a lot of armor especially early in the leagues then but to reach the top, armor nodes + armor gear would be better. Iron Reflexes has been terrible since it was changed to not double dip. It is a passive that is strong because its downside is the same as unwavering stance which is one of the strongest passives on the tree. The change that made it no longer make your DEX provide %EV makes it bad enough already. It doesn't need to nullify armor nodes as well.
?
The dex change nerfed it a bit but since then it's still the most used passive in HC at least. It's good because you can just convert Grace into armor and because it still double dips: If you have armor/evasion nodes they count twice. Also, 100% Evasion and 100% Armour with pure evasion and IR is much better than 200% armour and pure armour.
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On September 27 2014 05:40 Miragee wrote:
it still double dips: If you have armor/evasion nodes they count twice.
False
Being able to jade AND granite is pretty nuts tho.
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On September 27 2014 05:41 Sn0_Man wrote:Show nested quote +On September 27 2014 05:40 Miragee wrote:
it still double dips: If you have armor/evasion nodes they count twice. False Being able to jade AND granite is pretty nuts tho.
I guess so. Just read the clarification. It doesn't say it in the formular. -.- Still, the much bigger difference is in my following sentence.
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Well afaik that also isn't true apart from evasion gear having higher base values? so w/e
Generally hybrid gear owns for rolling colours though and is often cheap too, so thats cool.
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On September 27 2014 05:40 Miragee wrote:Show nested quote +On September 27 2014 05:26 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:On September 27 2014 04:20 Miragee wrote:@Blitz: Teh, I'm just incredibly stupid. -.- On September 27 2014 04:02 TheTenthDoc wrote:
It's likely different people, but it boggles my mind a community can go from saying "Evasion is bad because it's RNG based" in open beta (even though it isn't) to singing the praises of block, which is absolutely RNG based.
I do feel as though GGG needs to figure out a way to make going armor with armor nodes the best way to achieve high armor values. It's silly the best way to get armor right now is still evasion gear+evasion nodes+grace. I agree. It's difficult though. Maybe buffing armor nodes while changing Iron Reflexes to nullify armor nodes would help. You still have a cheap way to get a lot of armor especially early in the leagues then but to reach the top, armor nodes + armor gear would be better. Iron Reflexes has been terrible since it was changed to not double dip. It is a passive that is strong because its downside is the same as unwavering stance which is one of the strongest passives on the tree. The change that made it no longer make your DEX provide %EV makes it bad enough already. It doesn't need to nullify armor nodes as well. ? The dex change nerfed it a bit but since then it's still the most used passive in HC at least. It's good because you can just convert Grace into armor and because it still double dips: If you have armor/evasion nodes they count twice. Also, 100% Evasion and 100% Armour with pure evasion and IR is much better than 200% armour and pure armour.
Well first of all I'd say that the majority of its use has to do with unwavering stance as I've already stated. If unwavering stance was removed or the penalty was changed such that it didn't align perfectly to IR then I am going to claim you would see pretty much every build dropping IR. Some builds like Eternal Knives casters, which take it because EV doesn't mitigate physical reflect from spells whereas armor does, would continue using it, but it is a shit passive otherwise. It being the most used passive without accounting for the fact that its downsides align perfectly with the downside to stun immunity is not an argument.
At the most fundamental level Iron Reflexes says that 1 point of armor is stronger than 1 point of evasion (or that having both is terrible I guess). I don't think this is true, but I'm that guy playing pure EV when nobody else does so maybe I'm just doing it wrong.
100% EV and 100% armor with EV+IR is exactly the same as having 200% armor and pure armor. When you start adding jade and granite flasks it changes because the jade gets the reflexes bonus from Jade as well as the Iron Skin from granite. The granite only takes the iron skin bonus however since it isn't evasion. This is the reason you use EV gear instead of armor gear as well since armor gear doesn't get bonuses from evasion passives whereas the evasion does get the armor passives if you have IR. EV pieces having slightly higher base values than armor isn't actually significant. By using armor pieces you don't get the reflexes bonus from the jade flask. Technically you can roll iron skin on your jade, but the bonus doesn't stack with itself so it is irrelevant if you're using both flasks.
The strength of IR is that you can attain 200% increased armor from flasks that you might be using anyway. I'd say almost all builds are using a granite OR a jade at least, but having the flask space for both might be questionable. With the DEX change however you're also losing 20% and possibly much more %EV so this becomes less good (20% EV is 100 DEX which almost all builds have for gem use; an EV char probably has triple this at least from connector nodes).
On September 27 2014 05:48 Sn0_Man wrote:
Well afaik that also isn't true apart from evasion gear having higher base values? so w/e
Generally hybrid gear owns for rolling colours though and is often cheap too, so thats cool.
A hybrid piece also has more total stats if you combine them and compare. The downside to the hybrid armors is the weaker implicits. There isn't an astral plate or assassin garb awesome implicit on the hybrid armors.
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Ok the facebreaker build, while being awesome for enabling me to punch piety to death with me bare hands, is super mega boring in terms of farming and lvling, so I'm dropping it for now. I would really be grateful if you guys would could tell me what are the top 1 or 3 builds for each class in the game, just something I could google and find a good guide for.
There are like 20 or so guides for summoners so I'm a bit clueless on where to start, and it sounds super boring to level through the first 50 or so levels but I might be wrong since I haven't tried it actually. Thanks for all the info!
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On September 27 2014 01:29 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2014 15:59 Miragee wrote:On September 26 2014 07:43 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:On September 26 2014 07:16 Miragee wrote:
That's one of the most stupid mechanics I have ever seen in a game, lol. "The user base complained"... I usually use and IC set up to get that done but I didn't want to use it on this char. But I guess armor just sucks and ECs and IC are the way to go. -.- My example makes armor looks really bad I guess. If you're actually putting effort into armor you should have at least 30k. I also typoed one of the numbers when I was calculating them previously which made them look even worse sorry. Edited with more realistic numbers so armor doesn't look so terrible. On September 26 2014 07:43 Tilorn91 wrote:
Holy shit I had no idea armor is so terrible for large hits... Keep in mind that when you're talking about percentage reduction the scaling isn't linear so having a percentage close to 100% is ridiculous mitigation. Well ok. But instead of investing heavily into armor nodes you could just go block + ECs + Granite. I don't feel like Armour nodes are really worth it in the current state. With close to 100% you mean 90%? Because that's the cap. And the mitigation is linear. Up to that point, each additional % of mitigation will mitigate the exact same damage of a source as the one before. In your example: If you increase the mitigation to 72 % you will take 10 dmg less (280). 73% again 10 dmg less (270). I know what you are talking about. The actual percentage of the damage mitigation increase gets higher and higher. But it doesn't really make sense to see it that way as the only thing that counts in the end is the flat dmg that hurts your life pool. And for that, the step from 72 to 73% isn't any better than the step from 89 to 90 %. Unless I'm missing something important again (like another formular). Close to 100% is just a poor way of saying going from say 89% -> 90% is a lot more survival than going from 0% -> 1%. A linear decrease in damage taken results in an exponential increase in survival. If I go from 0% damage reduction to 50% damage reduction I double my effective hitpoints. To double it again I only need to reach 75%. Doubling it again requires half of the remaining which means each time yields smaller and smaller percentages required for the same amount of damage mitigation. 1000 damage hits. 5000 hitpoints. If I have 0% DR then it will take 5 hits to kill me. If I have 25% DR then it will take 6.67 hits to kill me. If I have 50% DR then it will take 10 hits to kill me. If I have 75% DR then it will take 20 hits to kill me. From these numbers you should be able to tell that a linear increase in the percentage does not actually result in a linear increase in survival. Show nested quote +On September 27 2014 01:15 HolydaKing wrote:
I would prefer a decent/high Armour build over any pure Evasion build any day if the later one doesn't have Lightning Coil in stash or Mind over Matter spec. My pure Eva builds all died in maps at some point. One to Undying Evangelists especially, those can be ridiculous. I feel like the community of this game vastly overrates how terrible playing EV is and the need to use additional mitigation uniques like Coil or Cloak.
Considering I had a level 95 Evasion based bow character in Invasion I think I'm qualified to speak on this.
Evasion sucks dick without Coil or other forms of mitigation, because in HC, all it takes is that one set of random ass modifiers to put you into standard league. It's the same deal as armor, you need to run other things like EC/MoM/AA/Coil/Saffel's/Block/etc. that are layered on top of either Evasion or Armor. In general, this is just because GGG sucks at balancing so all they do to make the game more difficult is make mob do 10000x more damage.
That being said, Evasion does come out on top over Armor if you do layer other defenses on top of it because you have access to Acrobatics/Phase/etc; however, the previous patch nerfed Evasion pretty hard because you are forced to go into the Scion Lifewheel now to get enough life (when previously you didn't have to do that at all).
Not to mention getting stunned is the biggest fucking problem with Evasion, and as you and me both know, stun = desync like mad. This is why Unwavering Stance is still such a popular keystone in HC; it prevents a massive amount of desync. It's extremely rare to get stunned, but it can and does happen, and you might even get unlucky and get stunned twice in a row and just flat out die.
Oh, it also didn't help that for a long time Devourer attacks couldn't be dodged/evaded for whatever dumb reason.
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On September 28 2014 08:19 Tilorn91 wrote:
Ok the facebreaker build, while being awesome for enabling me to punch piety to death with me bare hands, is super mega boring in terms of farming and lvling, so I'm dropping it for now. I would really be grateful if you guys would could tell me what are the top 1 or 3 builds for each class in the game, just something I could google and find a good guide for.
There are like 20 or so guides for summoners so I'm a bit clueless on where to start, and it sounds super boring to level through the first 50 or so levels but I might be wrong since I haven't tried it actually. Thanks for all the info!
There aren't really any consensus top builds for classes. Some of the more popular ones that are pretty easy to play right now are things like flame totem, tornado shot, freeze pulse, and arc. Just look on the poe forums
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Man, I don't even play that much, this new patch makes it pretty much impossible for me to craft, rofl.
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EPT
