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On July 29 2014 05:09 AnachronisticAnarchy wrote:Show nested quote +On July 29 2014 04:27 rebuffering wrote:On July 28 2014 21:22 bluQ wrote:On July 28 2014 09:38 rebuffering wrote:On July 28 2014 08:55 Capped wrote:On July 28 2014 03:41 Taguchi wrote:
GGG have said multiple times that they won't add an auction house, they'll add asynchronous website based trading instead. I take that to basically mean a CoD mail system accessible through the website interface - or something similar that requires the seller to put an item up for sale, the buyer to come to an agreement with the seller about price (possibly automation involved if seller specifies buyout but don't know for sure) and finally the buyer sending an offer and seller accepting the offer (or maybe seller CoDs the buyer so the buyer is the last to act but it's the same thing anyway).
That'd likely be in addition to trading tabs and/or some form of searching for items instead of simply browsing for them - perhaps they'll implement something similar to what procurement does and you'll be able to populate your shop with items easily while ingame. But no fully automated AH, that's been a given for a long time and I hope their stance didn't change since then. So basically, a shitty warped hard to use version of an auction house. Haha not a bad assessment, for me, the D3 auction house worked great. Don't get me wrong, i hate D3, and will never return to it, but the AH functioned just fine, as in, it was very easy to sell/buy stuff, you got your items/money immediately, it just worked well. The problem was that drops in the game were shit, and since it was using gold for the economy, inflation just made playing around in the AH a pain in the ass, since, hey i need to go farm like 10 million gold to buy some slight upgrade. And since the drop rates were so garbage back when it 1st started, the odds of you getting some sick legendary and making money off of it, was incredibly slim. Whats a pain in the ass in PoE, is sometimes, you'll msg someone for an item, and they'll say "hey, ill check after this map", which means, in best case scenario, your sitting around for 5+ mins waiting on someone for an item, or, they just plain forget. The other issue is that right now .xyz, eveyone looks for items whos sellers are Online, which at any given time, can be like 1/2 the player pool, so looking for items/upgrades means your not getting the full list of potential items/upgrades possible. If PoE incorporated a D3 style AH In-Game, which let us set buy outs, and not requiring the seller to be online, or click accept on purchase, would make trading WAY better IMO. Its annoying waiting on people to get back to you, when you just want to get back to mapping, or if im ready to buyout an item, but the person is online but AFK, just sucks so much. I think you are missing the point of async. The AH in D3 was synchron, which means the second someone puts something in it could be instant-bought. That made it way easier to dominate markets with AHbots etcpp. GGG doesn't want that. The economy will suffer anyways from guys who try to manipulate it by investing a lot and then reselling. Some instant-buy AH would make that a lot easier. If you have 3rd party website invovled and a hand-to-hand trade you'd need to invest way more time and effort to control markets. And from a socializing PoV its also pretty neat. I dunno how many guys I added for trades etc which I ended up either helping out with items or even mapping. Automatation always means easier automated-abuse. You are correct, i did miss the point. But isn't it still possible for people to do the same type of market control with A-synch? I mean, i buy something on the cheap, and try to sell it off at a higher amount at a later time? It IS possible to do personally, but you can't automate it. By making it async and (mildly) inconvenient to use, you reduce the quantity of goods on the market and give us the relatively comfortable selling experience we have now. If, however, you make trading almost perfectly convenient, then everybody will trade. Goods will flood the market, prices will tank and many sellers will have most of their stock rendered valueless. Of course, it may not be that bad, but it's a daunting change, and it will be impossible to predict how significant it will be unless it is tried out. Every barrier to trading, however small, inflates the value of goods traded. In that light, I'm fine with the status quo. Better to leave things relatively unchanged (and relatively inconvenient) than to risk bricking the market.
You make some good points sir, thanks for clearing that up.
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On July 28 2014 04:22 vndestiny wrote:Countdown to having a new proper pretty thread OP for the new league like we have been promised 
Don't know what you guys have planned, but since I believe im not the only one, maybe add some guys who regularly stream from the TLcommunity to the OP for new people to ask question directly inchat etc. 
(and some youtube guides ofc like ziggyD etc)
Introducing new people to PoE I always felt pictures are the best way to explain the game :D
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On July 29 2014 05:09 AnachronisticAnarchy wrote:Show nested quote +On July 29 2014 04:27 rebuffering wrote:On July 28 2014 21:22 bluQ wrote:On July 28 2014 09:38 rebuffering wrote:On July 28 2014 08:55 Capped wrote:On July 28 2014 03:41 Taguchi wrote:
GGG have said multiple times that they won't add an auction house, they'll add asynchronous website based trading instead. I take that to basically mean a CoD mail system accessible through the website interface - or something similar that requires the seller to put an item up for sale, the buyer to come to an agreement with the seller about price (possibly automation involved if seller specifies buyout but don't know for sure) and finally the buyer sending an offer and seller accepting the offer (or maybe seller CoDs the buyer so the buyer is the last to act but it's the same thing anyway).
That'd likely be in addition to trading tabs and/or some form of searching for items instead of simply browsing for them - perhaps they'll implement something similar to what procurement does and you'll be able to populate your shop with items easily while ingame. But no fully automated AH, that's been a given for a long time and I hope their stance didn't change since then. So basically, a shitty warped hard to use version of an auction house. Haha not a bad assessment, for me, the D3 auction house worked great. Don't get me wrong, i hate D3, and will never return to it, but the AH functioned just fine, as in, it was very easy to sell/buy stuff, you got your items/money immediately, it just worked well. The problem was that drops in the game were shit, and since it was using gold for the economy, inflation just made playing around in the AH a pain in the ass, since, hey i need to go farm like 10 million gold to buy some slight upgrade. And since the drop rates were so garbage back when it 1st started, the odds of you getting some sick legendary and making money off of it, was incredibly slim. Whats a pain in the ass in PoE, is sometimes, you'll msg someone for an item, and they'll say "hey, ill check after this map", which means, in best case scenario, your sitting around for 5+ mins waiting on someone for an item, or, they just plain forget. The other issue is that right now .xyz, eveyone looks for items whos sellers are Online, which at any given time, can be like 1/2 the player pool, so looking for items/upgrades means your not getting the full list of potential items/upgrades possible. If PoE incorporated a D3 style AH In-Game, which let us set buy outs, and not requiring the seller to be online, or click accept on purchase, would make trading WAY better IMO. Its annoying waiting on people to get back to you, when you just want to get back to mapping, or if im ready to buyout an item, but the person is online but AFK, just sucks so much. I think you are missing the point of async. The AH in D3 was synchron, which means the second someone puts something in it could be instant-bought. That made it way easier to dominate markets with AHbots etcpp. GGG doesn't want that. The economy will suffer anyways from guys who try to manipulate it by investing a lot and then reselling. Some instant-buy AH would make that a lot easier. If you have 3rd party website invovled and a hand-to-hand trade you'd need to invest way more time and effort to control markets. And from a socializing PoV its also pretty neat. I dunno how many guys I added for trades etc which I ended up either helping out with items or even mapping. Automatation always means easier automated-abuse. You are correct, i did miss the point. But isn't it still possible for people to do the same type of market control with A-synch? I mean, i buy something on the cheap, and try to sell it off at a higher amount at a later time? It IS possible to do personally, but you can't automate it. By making it async and (mildly) inconvenient to use, you reduce the quantity of goods on the market and give us the relatively comfortable selling experience we have now. If, however, you make trading almost perfectly convenient, then everybody will trade. Goods will flood the market, prices will tank and many sellers will have most of their stock rendered valueless. Of course, it may not be that bad, but it's a daunting change, and it will be impossible to predict how significant it will be unless it is tried out. Every barrier to trading, however small, inflates the value of goods traded. In that light, I'm fine with the status quo. Better to leave things relatively unchanged (and relatively inconvenient) than to risk bricking the market.
What leads you to believe that an auction house is going to brick the market? I don't know anybody who trades in path of exile without an indexer and the auction house is just going to replace that. It isn't some new feature that is going to collapse the market like you're making it out to be as far as I'm concerned.
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On July 29 2014 06:22 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 29 2014 05:09 AnachronisticAnarchy wrote:On July 29 2014 04:27 rebuffering wrote:On July 28 2014 21:22 bluQ wrote:On July 28 2014 09:38 rebuffering wrote:On July 28 2014 08:55 Capped wrote:On July 28 2014 03:41 Taguchi wrote:
GGG have said multiple times that they won't add an auction house, they'll add asynchronous website based trading instead. I take that to basically mean a CoD mail system accessible through the website interface - or something similar that requires the seller to put an item up for sale, the buyer to come to an agreement with the seller about price (possibly automation involved if seller specifies buyout but don't know for sure) and finally the buyer sending an offer and seller accepting the offer (or maybe seller CoDs the buyer so the buyer is the last to act but it's the same thing anyway).
That'd likely be in addition to trading tabs and/or some form of searching for items instead of simply browsing for them - perhaps they'll implement something similar to what procurement does and you'll be able to populate your shop with items easily while ingame. But no fully automated AH, that's been a given for a long time and I hope their stance didn't change since then. So basically, a shitty warped hard to use version of an auction house. Haha not a bad assessment, for me, the D3 auction house worked great. Don't get me wrong, i hate D3, and will never return to it, but the AH functioned just fine, as in, it was very easy to sell/buy stuff, you got your items/money immediately, it just worked well. The problem was that drops in the game were shit, and since it was using gold for the economy, inflation just made playing around in the AH a pain in the ass, since, hey i need to go farm like 10 million gold to buy some slight upgrade. And since the drop rates were so garbage back when it 1st started, the odds of you getting some sick legendary and making money off of it, was incredibly slim. Whats a pain in the ass in PoE, is sometimes, you'll msg someone for an item, and they'll say "hey, ill check after this map", which means, in best case scenario, your sitting around for 5+ mins waiting on someone for an item, or, they just plain forget. The other issue is that right now .xyz, eveyone looks for items whos sellers are Online, which at any given time, can be like 1/2 the player pool, so looking for items/upgrades means your not getting the full list of potential items/upgrades possible. If PoE incorporated a D3 style AH In-Game, which let us set buy outs, and not requiring the seller to be online, or click accept on purchase, would make trading WAY better IMO. Its annoying waiting on people to get back to you, when you just want to get back to mapping, or if im ready to buyout an item, but the person is online but AFK, just sucks so much. I think you are missing the point of async. The AH in D3 was synchron, which means the second someone puts something in it could be instant-bought. That made it way easier to dominate markets with AHbots etcpp. GGG doesn't want that. The economy will suffer anyways from guys who try to manipulate it by investing a lot and then reselling. Some instant-buy AH would make that a lot easier. If you have 3rd party website invovled and a hand-to-hand trade you'd need to invest way more time and effort to control markets. And from a socializing PoV its also pretty neat. I dunno how many guys I added for trades etc which I ended up either helping out with items or even mapping. Automatation always means easier automated-abuse. You are correct, i did miss the point. But isn't it still possible for people to do the same type of market control with A-synch? I mean, i buy something on the cheap, and try to sell it off at a higher amount at a later time? It IS possible to do personally, but you can't automate it. By making it async and (mildly) inconvenient to use, you reduce the quantity of goods on the market and give us the relatively comfortable selling experience we have now. If, however, you make trading almost perfectly convenient, then everybody will trade. Goods will flood the market, prices will tank and many sellers will have most of their stock rendered valueless. Of course, it may not be that bad, but it's a daunting change, and it will be impossible to predict how significant it will be unless it is tried out. Every barrier to trading, however small, inflates the value of goods traded. In that light, I'm fine with the status quo. Better to leave things relatively unchanged (and relatively inconvenient) than to risk bricking the market. What leads you to believe that an auction house is going to brick the market? I don't know anybody who trades in path of exile without an indexer and the auction house is just going to replace that. It isn't some new feature that is going to collapse the market like you're making it out to be as far as I'm concerned.
It is. Lots of people trade in chat because its quicker even though its more expensive. The AH ruined D3 and if they ever implement it in PoE ill never play it again.
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On July 29 2014 06:27 Yuljan wrote:Show nested quote +On July 29 2014 06:22 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:On July 29 2014 05:09 AnachronisticAnarchy wrote:On July 29 2014 04:27 rebuffering wrote:On July 28 2014 21:22 bluQ wrote:On July 28 2014 09:38 rebuffering wrote:On July 28 2014 08:55 Capped wrote:On July 28 2014 03:41 Taguchi wrote:
GGG have said multiple times that they won't add an auction house, they'll add asynchronous website based trading instead. I take that to basically mean a CoD mail system accessible through the website interface - or something similar that requires the seller to put an item up for sale, the buyer to come to an agreement with the seller about price (possibly automation involved if seller specifies buyout but don't know for sure) and finally the buyer sending an offer and seller accepting the offer (or maybe seller CoDs the buyer so the buyer is the last to act but it's the same thing anyway).
That'd likely be in addition to trading tabs and/or some form of searching for items instead of simply browsing for them - perhaps they'll implement something similar to what procurement does and you'll be able to populate your shop with items easily while ingame. But no fully automated AH, that's been a given for a long time and I hope their stance didn't change since then. So basically, a shitty warped hard to use version of an auction house. Haha not a bad assessment, for me, the D3 auction house worked great. Don't get me wrong, i hate D3, and will never return to it, but the AH functioned just fine, as in, it was very easy to sell/buy stuff, you got your items/money immediately, it just worked well. The problem was that drops in the game were shit, and since it was using gold for the economy, inflation just made playing around in the AH a pain in the ass, since, hey i need to go farm like 10 million gold to buy some slight upgrade. And since the drop rates were so garbage back when it 1st started, the odds of you getting some sick legendary and making money off of it, was incredibly slim. Whats a pain in the ass in PoE, is sometimes, you'll msg someone for an item, and they'll say "hey, ill check after this map", which means, in best case scenario, your sitting around for 5+ mins waiting on someone for an item, or, they just plain forget. The other issue is that right now .xyz, eveyone looks for items whos sellers are Online, which at any given time, can be like 1/2 the player pool, so looking for items/upgrades means your not getting the full list of potential items/upgrades possible. If PoE incorporated a D3 style AH In-Game, which let us set buy outs, and not requiring the seller to be online, or click accept on purchase, would make trading WAY better IMO. Its annoying waiting on people to get back to you, when you just want to get back to mapping, or if im ready to buyout an item, but the person is online but AFK, just sucks so much. I think you are missing the point of async. The AH in D3 was synchron, which means the second someone puts something in it could be instant-bought. That made it way easier to dominate markets with AHbots etcpp. GGG doesn't want that. The economy will suffer anyways from guys who try to manipulate it by investing a lot and then reselling. Some instant-buy AH would make that a lot easier. If you have 3rd party website invovled and a hand-to-hand trade you'd need to invest way more time and effort to control markets. And from a socializing PoV its also pretty neat. I dunno how many guys I added for trades etc which I ended up either helping out with items or even mapping. Automatation always means easier automated-abuse. You are correct, i did miss the point. But isn't it still possible for people to do the same type of market control with A-synch? I mean, i buy something on the cheap, and try to sell it off at a higher amount at a later time? It IS possible to do personally, but you can't automate it. By making it async and (mildly) inconvenient to use, you reduce the quantity of goods on the market and give us the relatively comfortable selling experience we have now. If, however, you make trading almost perfectly convenient, then everybody will trade. Goods will flood the market, prices will tank and many sellers will have most of their stock rendered valueless. Of course, it may not be that bad, but it's a daunting change, and it will be impossible to predict how significant it will be unless it is tried out. Every barrier to trading, however small, inflates the value of goods traded. In that light, I'm fine with the status quo. Better to leave things relatively unchanged (and relatively inconvenient) than to risk bricking the market. What leads you to believe that an auction house is going to brick the market? I don't know anybody who trades in path of exile without an indexer and the auction house is just going to replace that. It isn't some new feature that is going to collapse the market like you're making it out to be as far as I'm concerned. It is. Lots of people trade in chat because its quicker even though its more expensive. The AH ruined D3 and if they ever implement it in PoE ill never play it again.
The auction house certainly didn't help Diablo 3, but you would still be complaining about release Diablo 3 if it was released without it. I have no clue how this thread thinks that automation makes trading terrible; wasting less of my time trading so I can actually play the game seems pretty good for some reason.
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On July 29 2014 06:22 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 29 2014 05:09 AnachronisticAnarchy wrote:On July 29 2014 04:27 rebuffering wrote:On July 28 2014 21:22 bluQ wrote:On July 28 2014 09:38 rebuffering wrote:On July 28 2014 08:55 Capped wrote:On July 28 2014 03:41 Taguchi wrote:
GGG have said multiple times that they won't add an auction house, they'll add asynchronous website based trading instead. I take that to basically mean a CoD mail system accessible through the website interface - or something similar that requires the seller to put an item up for sale, the buyer to come to an agreement with the seller about price (possibly automation involved if seller specifies buyout but don't know for sure) and finally the buyer sending an offer and seller accepting the offer (or maybe seller CoDs the buyer so the buyer is the last to act but it's the same thing anyway).
That'd likely be in addition to trading tabs and/or some form of searching for items instead of simply browsing for them - perhaps they'll implement something similar to what procurement does and you'll be able to populate your shop with items easily while ingame. But no fully automated AH, that's been a given for a long time and I hope their stance didn't change since then. So basically, a shitty warped hard to use version of an auction house. Haha not a bad assessment, for me, the D3 auction house worked great. Don't get me wrong, i hate D3, and will never return to it, but the AH functioned just fine, as in, it was very easy to sell/buy stuff, you got your items/money immediately, it just worked well. The problem was that drops in the game were shit, and since it was using gold for the economy, inflation just made playing around in the AH a pain in the ass, since, hey i need to go farm like 10 million gold to buy some slight upgrade. And since the drop rates were so garbage back when it 1st started, the odds of you getting some sick legendary and making money off of it, was incredibly slim. Whats a pain in the ass in PoE, is sometimes, you'll msg someone for an item, and they'll say "hey, ill check after this map", which means, in best case scenario, your sitting around for 5+ mins waiting on someone for an item, or, they just plain forget. The other issue is that right now .xyz, eveyone looks for items whos sellers are Online, which at any given time, can be like 1/2 the player pool, so looking for items/upgrades means your not getting the full list of potential items/upgrades possible. If PoE incorporated a D3 style AH In-Game, which let us set buy outs, and not requiring the seller to be online, or click accept on purchase, would make trading WAY better IMO. Its annoying waiting on people to get back to you, when you just want to get back to mapping, or if im ready to buyout an item, but the person is online but AFK, just sucks so much. I think you are missing the point of async. The AH in D3 was synchron, which means the second someone puts something in it could be instant-bought. That made it way easier to dominate markets with AHbots etcpp. GGG doesn't want that. The economy will suffer anyways from guys who try to manipulate it by investing a lot and then reselling. Some instant-buy AH would make that a lot easier. If you have 3rd party website invovled and a hand-to-hand trade you'd need to invest way more time and effort to control markets. And from a socializing PoV its also pretty neat. I dunno how many guys I added for trades etc which I ended up either helping out with items or even mapping. Automatation always means easier automated-abuse. You are correct, i did miss the point. But isn't it still possible for people to do the same type of market control with A-synch? I mean, i buy something on the cheap, and try to sell it off at a higher amount at a later time? It IS possible to do personally, but you can't automate it. By making it async and (mildly) inconvenient to use, you reduce the quantity of goods on the market and give us the relatively comfortable selling experience we have now. If, however, you make trading almost perfectly convenient, then everybody will trade. Goods will flood the market, prices will tank and many sellers will have most of their stock rendered valueless. Of course, it may not be that bad, but it's a daunting change, and it will be impossible to predict how significant it will be unless it is tried out. Every barrier to trading, however small, inflates the value of goods traded. In that light, I'm fine with the status quo. Better to leave things relatively unchanged (and relatively inconvenient) than to risk bricking the market. What leads you to believe that an auction house is going to brick the market? I don't know anybody who trades in path of exile without an indexer and the auction house is just going to replace that. It isn't some new feature that is going to collapse the market like you're making it out to be as far as I'm concerned.
You don't know anyone = very small sample size. I thought you are in Math of Exile? 
No really, there are more people trading in chats only than you might think. There are also tons of people that only trade certain goods because of the lack of an AH.
From my experience over the last decade, every game (not just D3) with an AH had serious issues with controlling of market as well as having problems with prone to patches/bots/hacks/farming routes/bugs/exploits that might lead to economy changes. With AH that rules out of control very fast, often times within an hour.
GW2 is a delicate example where you can always see when a new patch ruins the market in minutes or when a new wave of AH bots arrive.
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On July 29 2014 07:19 Miragee wrote:Show nested quote +On July 29 2014 06:22 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:On July 29 2014 05:09 AnachronisticAnarchy wrote:On July 29 2014 04:27 rebuffering wrote:On July 28 2014 21:22 bluQ wrote:On July 28 2014 09:38 rebuffering wrote:On July 28 2014 08:55 Capped wrote:On July 28 2014 03:41 Taguchi wrote:
GGG have said multiple times that they won't add an auction house, they'll add asynchronous website based trading instead. I take that to basically mean a CoD mail system accessible through the website interface - or something similar that requires the seller to put an item up for sale, the buyer to come to an agreement with the seller about price (possibly automation involved if seller specifies buyout but don't know for sure) and finally the buyer sending an offer and seller accepting the offer (or maybe seller CoDs the buyer so the buyer is the last to act but it's the same thing anyway).
That'd likely be in addition to trading tabs and/or some form of searching for items instead of simply browsing for them - perhaps they'll implement something similar to what procurement does and you'll be able to populate your shop with items easily while ingame. But no fully automated AH, that's been a given for a long time and I hope their stance didn't change since then. So basically, a shitty warped hard to use version of an auction house. Haha not a bad assessment, for me, the D3 auction house worked great. Don't get me wrong, i hate D3, and will never return to it, but the AH functioned just fine, as in, it was very easy to sell/buy stuff, you got your items/money immediately, it just worked well. The problem was that drops in the game were shit, and since it was using gold for the economy, inflation just made playing around in the AH a pain in the ass, since, hey i need to go farm like 10 million gold to buy some slight upgrade. And since the drop rates were so garbage back when it 1st started, the odds of you getting some sick legendary and making money off of it, was incredibly slim. Whats a pain in the ass in PoE, is sometimes, you'll msg someone for an item, and they'll say "hey, ill check after this map", which means, in best case scenario, your sitting around for 5+ mins waiting on someone for an item, or, they just plain forget. The other issue is that right now .xyz, eveyone looks for items whos sellers are Online, which at any given time, can be like 1/2 the player pool, so looking for items/upgrades means your not getting the full list of potential items/upgrades possible. If PoE incorporated a D3 style AH In-Game, which let us set buy outs, and not requiring the seller to be online, or click accept on purchase, would make trading WAY better IMO. Its annoying waiting on people to get back to you, when you just want to get back to mapping, or if im ready to buyout an item, but the person is online but AFK, just sucks so much. I think you are missing the point of async. The AH in D3 was synchron, which means the second someone puts something in it could be instant-bought. That made it way easier to dominate markets with AHbots etcpp. GGG doesn't want that. The economy will suffer anyways from guys who try to manipulate it by investing a lot and then reselling. Some instant-buy AH would make that a lot easier. If you have 3rd party website invovled and a hand-to-hand trade you'd need to invest way more time and effort to control markets. And from a socializing PoV its also pretty neat. I dunno how many guys I added for trades etc which I ended up either helping out with items or even mapping. Automatation always means easier automated-abuse. You are correct, i did miss the point. But isn't it still possible for people to do the same type of market control with A-synch? I mean, i buy something on the cheap, and try to sell it off at a higher amount at a later time? It IS possible to do personally, but you can't automate it. By making it async and (mildly) inconvenient to use, you reduce the quantity of goods on the market and give us the relatively comfortable selling experience we have now. If, however, you make trading almost perfectly convenient, then everybody will trade. Goods will flood the market, prices will tank and many sellers will have most of their stock rendered valueless. Of course, it may not be that bad, but it's a daunting change, and it will be impossible to predict how significant it will be unless it is tried out. Every barrier to trading, however small, inflates the value of goods traded. In that light, I'm fine with the status quo. Better to leave things relatively unchanged (and relatively inconvenient) than to risk bricking the market. What leads you to believe that an auction house is going to brick the market? I don't know anybody who trades in path of exile without an indexer and the auction house is just going to replace that. It isn't some new feature that is going to collapse the market like you're making it out to be as far as I'm concerned. You don't know anyone = very small sample size. I thought you are in Math of Exile? No really, there are more people trading in chats only than you might think. There are also tons of people that only trade certain goods because of the lack of an AH. From my experience over the last decade, every game (not just D3) with an AH had serious issues with controlling of market as well as having problems with prone to patches/bots/hacks/farming routes/bugs/exploits that might lead to economy changes. With AH that rules out of control very fast, often times within an hour. GW2 is a delicate example where you can always see when a new patch ruins the market in minutes or when a new wave of AH bots arrive.
Standard league economy is already dead because of legacy items. At very worst I say you introduce the auction house and then you can disable it for the temp leagues if it really is all doom and gloom.
What makes you think the market needs controlled anyway? What constitutes a good economy and how is the market unaffected by any of patches/bots/hacks/farming routes/bugs/exploits if there isn't an auction house? You're trying to solve a problem, but you aren't attacking the right thing.
Provide an example of a game that has a good economy as you see it.
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On July 29 2014 07:29 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 29 2014 07:19 Miragee wrote:On July 29 2014 06:22 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:On July 29 2014 05:09 AnachronisticAnarchy wrote:On July 29 2014 04:27 rebuffering wrote:On July 28 2014 21:22 bluQ wrote:On July 28 2014 09:38 rebuffering wrote:On July 28 2014 08:55 Capped wrote:On July 28 2014 03:41 Taguchi wrote:
GGG have said multiple times that they won't add an auction house, they'll add asynchronous website based trading instead. I take that to basically mean a CoD mail system accessible through the website interface - or something similar that requires the seller to put an item up for sale, the buyer to come to an agreement with the seller about price (possibly automation involved if seller specifies buyout but don't know for sure) and finally the buyer sending an offer and seller accepting the offer (or maybe seller CoDs the buyer so the buyer is the last to act but it's the same thing anyway).
That'd likely be in addition to trading tabs and/or some form of searching for items instead of simply browsing for them - perhaps they'll implement something similar to what procurement does and you'll be able to populate your shop with items easily while ingame. But no fully automated AH, that's been a given for a long time and I hope their stance didn't change since then. So basically, a shitty warped hard to use version of an auction house. Haha not a bad assessment, for me, the D3 auction house worked great. Don't get me wrong, i hate D3, and will never return to it, but the AH functioned just fine, as in, it was very easy to sell/buy stuff, you got your items/money immediately, it just worked well. The problem was that drops in the game were shit, and since it was using gold for the economy, inflation just made playing around in the AH a pain in the ass, since, hey i need to go farm like 10 million gold to buy some slight upgrade. And since the drop rates were so garbage back when it 1st started, the odds of you getting some sick legendary and making money off of it, was incredibly slim. Whats a pain in the ass in PoE, is sometimes, you'll msg someone for an item, and they'll say "hey, ill check after this map", which means, in best case scenario, your sitting around for 5+ mins waiting on someone for an item, or, they just plain forget. The other issue is that right now .xyz, eveyone looks for items whos sellers are Online, which at any given time, can be like 1/2 the player pool, so looking for items/upgrades means your not getting the full list of potential items/upgrades possible. If PoE incorporated a D3 style AH In-Game, which let us set buy outs, and not requiring the seller to be online, or click accept on purchase, would make trading WAY better IMO. Its annoying waiting on people to get back to you, when you just want to get back to mapping, or if im ready to buyout an item, but the person is online but AFK, just sucks so much. I think you are missing the point of async. The AH in D3 was synchron, which means the second someone puts something in it could be instant-bought. That made it way easier to dominate markets with AHbots etcpp. GGG doesn't want that. The economy will suffer anyways from guys who try to manipulate it by investing a lot and then reselling. Some instant-buy AH would make that a lot easier. If you have 3rd party website invovled and a hand-to-hand trade you'd need to invest way more time and effort to control markets. And from a socializing PoV its also pretty neat. I dunno how many guys I added for trades etc which I ended up either helping out with items or even mapping. Automatation always means easier automated-abuse. You are correct, i did miss the point. But isn't it still possible for people to do the same type of market control with A-synch? I mean, i buy something on the cheap, and try to sell it off at a higher amount at a later time? It IS possible to do personally, but you can't automate it. By making it async and (mildly) inconvenient to use, you reduce the quantity of goods on the market and give us the relatively comfortable selling experience we have now. If, however, you make trading almost perfectly convenient, then everybody will trade. Goods will flood the market, prices will tank and many sellers will have most of their stock rendered valueless. Of course, it may not be that bad, but it's a daunting change, and it will be impossible to predict how significant it will be unless it is tried out. Every barrier to trading, however small, inflates the value of goods traded. In that light, I'm fine with the status quo. Better to leave things relatively unchanged (and relatively inconvenient) than to risk bricking the market. What leads you to believe that an auction house is going to brick the market? I don't know anybody who trades in path of exile without an indexer and the auction house is just going to replace that. It isn't some new feature that is going to collapse the market like you're making it out to be as far as I'm concerned. You don't know anyone = very small sample size. I thought you are in Math of Exile? No really, there are more people trading in chats only than you might think. There are also tons of people that only trade certain goods because of the lack of an AH. From my experience over the last decade, every game (not just D3) with an AH had serious issues with controlling of market as well as having problems with prone to patches/bots/hacks/farming routes/bugs/exploits that might lead to economy changes. With AH that rules out of control very fast, often times within an hour. GW2 is a delicate example where you can always see when a new patch ruins the market in minutes or when a new wave of AH bots arrive. Standard league economy is already dead because of legacy items. At very worst I say you introduce the auction house and then you can disable it for the temp leagues if it really is all doom and gloom. What makes you think the market needs controlled anyway? What constitutes a economy and how is the market unaffected by any of patches/bots/hacks/farming routes/bugs/exploits if there isn't an auction house? You're trying to solve a problem, but you aren't attacking the right thing. Provide an example of a game that has a good economy as you see it.
No game I know has good economy because resources are always inflating in them. It's not like the real world. Currency and items are created out of thin air at all times. And gold sinks that are usually put into the game do nothing because a gold sink that is strong enough to hinder inflation has to take as much money out of the game as there is created out of thin air. This will make the game feel very punishing and the majority of players would feel ripped of like beggars on the street. And that's where you are mixing things up here. The economy of standard isn't dead because of legacy items. Those are just rare as hell, some can afford them, most can't. But that's normal. The real problem about standard economy is that there is no end to the inflation, especially because all new leagues/dead HC chars end up in standard. Prices are out of control because currency and items accumulated there over time, that's all.
What makes me think the market need controlled anyway? I don't understand this question. The market doesn't need control. What I was saying that there are always people that try to control it and an AH makes it much much easier to do so.
The market isn't unaffected by patches/bots/hacks/farming routes/bugs/exploits. I never said that. The market is just affected more by the aforementioned things when an AH is in place. And that's because everything is in one place and everyone has immidiate access to everything. Entire stocks can be bought in seconds, the reaction time to all those things is extremly low. Let's also explain how AH bots and controlling usually works. You focus on one item and buy the entire stock. Now you have a monopol and can set the price. Through the AH, everytime cheaper supplies are available you insta-buy them (e.g. with a bot) to keep your market clean. Without AH that isn't possible to that degree because trade personally and won't sell all stuff to you, either.
A game economy is very complicated and I am by no means an expert but here are a few points that I observed in the last years that I found to be important for having a good economy:
- multiple currencies, materials as currencies etc.
- multiple different sinks for each of them, creating a complex web of in and output of those currencies
- no global, all-in-one trading system, but spread out over different plattforms
- keep the game clean from farm bots/dupes
A game that did trading very well imho is Guild Wars. The only problem there was, again, inflation. But even that wasn't as bad as in other games when comparing time past because of very effective resource sinks that somehow didn't feel that punishing (maybe because most of them were vanity).
The only way I can see AH's work is in a completly open world game with local AH's, Trading Routes and open PvP. This way, players will always have a hand against bots etc. You have to travel for certain prices and have to transport goods for it as well. Every part of the chain can be interrupted by ganking. That way it is controlled by a player driven, random dynamic instead of an artificial one from outside the game. But this is a system that can't take place in PoE because the core game doesn't give the possibilities.
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You can just as easily say the market adjusts faster when it is centralized. When a patch hits and an item changes in value dramatically it is easy for everyone to notice and begin buying/selling at a new price. In the current economy I might search buyout only on an index and be misguided because it hasn't reflected the change yet.
I'm not going to argue that there aren't downsides to an auction house, but it isn't all bad either. People already control the market and flip items. It being easier or faster is irrelevant to me and my time saved trading is more important to me than them having to work slightly harder to do what they're already doing. People manipulate the market because it is the easiest way to make money if you're good at it. You've played enough games to realize that it isn't going to go away so I'd suggest giving up on it.
If you're against bots then you ban bots. The history with GGG and map hacking probably steers people away from that though I suppose.
I'd also suggest that your trade routes merely create a new exploit. The strongest PvP entity merely sells a service and controls the market. You're only creating a new problem by solving your current one. The system will be exploited no matter what direction you take. How it is done is a product of whatever you've created.
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I agree with Blitzkrieg0. There will always be those people "playing" the market no matter what you do. Just like in the real world.
The current economy in standard is pretty broken as far as I know. Because there is a constant inflow of items and no real item sink.
So why would a AH ever work in POE? One reason; The constant new ladders! You will get a fresh market every 4 months and sometimes faster with the 1 months leagues etc.
The biggest failure of D3 AH was that there was no reset of the economy, endless inflation which always will make the rich richer, and the poor (and more casual players) poorer.
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On July 29 2014 15:47 Ota Solgryn wrote:
I agree with Blitzkrieg0. There will always be those people "playing" the market no matter what you do. Just like in the real world.
The current economy in standard is pretty broken as far as I know. Because there is a constant inflow of items and no real item sink.
So why would a AH ever work in POE? One reason; The constant new ladders! You will get a fresh market every 4 months and sometimes faster with the 1 months leagues etc.
The biggest failure of D3 AH was that there was no reset of the economy, endless inflation which always will make the rich richer, and the poor (and more casual players) poorer.
There's some serious false information regarding an AH. The purpose of the AH is really to make it easier and more fair for the less hardcore gamers. Seriously. Hardcore gamers are gonna know relatively accurate prices. In a game like PoE where there is no AH, it's very easy to swindle less knowledgeable gamers of prices on certain items, especially rares. How do I know? I made an absolute fortune in Invasion league the first 2 weeks (I was actually relatively on par with HVC in terms of wealth for a period of time), because I was just ripping off people left and right.
The AH makes it faster to make transactions, and gives more accurate information. It makes it much harder for a player to control the markets; it requires SERIOUS time investment to do so. In Diablo 3, it was extremely difficult to control the AH, as it required a serious bankroll to do so.
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You missunderstand the term "control the market". It's not about people ripping of others in order to make profit (aka flipping items etc.). That's not controlling a market. Controlling the market is, when someone buys every single Exalt (or whatever item of a single kind) that is offered and monopolising them. Then he uses the opportunity to feed-sell those back at a much higher price while buying all cheap offers to keep the monopol. An AH doesn't make that easier. It's simply only possible with an AH.
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I could listen to you guys talk about this forever! Seriously, some really good points on all fronts here, enjoying the discussion alot.
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On July 29 2014 18:07 Miragee wrote:
You missunderstand the term "control the market". It's not about people ripping of others in order to make profit (aka flipping items etc.). That's not controlling a market. Controlling the market is, when someone buys every single Exalt (or whatever item of a single kind) that is offered and monopolising them. Then he uses the opportunity to feed-sell those back at a much higher price while buying all cheap offers to keep the monopol. An AH doesn't make that easier. It's simply only possible with an AH.
Typically it is done with some finished good that you're producing and pushing others out of the market, but that isn't possible in path of exile. Somebody might be able to drive up the prices of certain orbs temporarily, but without an easy way to acquire that item, there is no way the margin would be favorable for them to continue their scheme. Controlling the market is exactly like flipping; the only difference is that you're doing it to manipulate the price instead of merely buying items that are priced incorrectly. You're still buying under priced items and selling them for more, but you're doing it to increase your profit margin as well.
I have no issue with people playing trade simulator. The prices rise on items, but I make that extra bit when I sell it and spend that extra bit when I buy it so it evens out. Unless it is some item that is impossible for me to obtain without this person (which I don't see possible in path of exile) then it isn't the end of the world.
The real bad people are for instance those in world of warcraft who make a finished product (say flasks) and then undercut anyone else who tries to sell them. They have a strangle hold on the market and make it impossible for anyone else to enter the market and do their profession. They make a loss whenever somebody else tries to enter, but since they make all the profits otherwise the money makes up for it in the long run. These people shouldn't really be possible in path of exile.
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On July 30 2014 02:55 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 29 2014 18:07 Miragee wrote:
You missunderstand the term "control the market". It's not about people ripping of others in order to make profit (aka flipping items etc.). That's not controlling a market. Controlling the market is, when someone buys every single Exalt (or whatever item of a single kind) that is offered and monopolising them. Then he uses the opportunity to feed-sell those back at a much higher price while buying all cheap offers to keep the monopol. An AH doesn't make that easier. It's simply only possible with an AH. Typically it is done with some finished good that you're producing and pushing others out of the market, but that isn't possible in path of exile. Somebody might be able to drive up the prices of certain orbs temporarily, but without an easy way to acquire that item, there is no way the margin would be favorable for them to continue their scheme. Controlling the market is exactly like flipping; the only difference is that you're doing it to manipulate the price instead of merely buying items that are priced incorrectly. It is taking an active role in making your flipping more efficient
It's obviously not happening with something like exalts in a 4 month league. Simple to aquire goods can't be pushed out of the market forever. It still can happen for a week or so which is already a terrible time frame in a short league. However it will happen with the really rare uniques for example, like Shav's, Kaom's, Crown of Eyes etc. Especially if something like Atziri sells make a few people super rich in the beginning of a league.
The difference here is not only that you make your flipping more efficient. The much bigger problem is that you are causing high prices for everyone. With the current system only a few uninformed people suffer (if even that, because some deals don't result out of being uninformed but rather because the seller/buyer want to trade it quick, while the flipper wants to invest time in trading to turn a profit, that's not ripping off). With monopolising and driving prices for single goods crazy, nobody can buy any items at the "normal" price like the majority of players does in the current system.
Don't get me wrong, it isn't all black and white. Of course the AH doesn't lead to an all encompassing "controllism" of the market. But part of the market will be controlled and not only for a few days and it will hurt the majority of the player base. I have seen enough of it in other games to think that I personally want to sacrifice the comfort I get from the AH for a better economy for everyone.
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At the very start of the league if you have enough capital to control high end uniques then you should probably be a hedge fund manager or something instead of playing trade simulator ^_^
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On July 30 2014 03:13 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:
At the very start of the league if you have enough capital to control high end uniques then you should probably be a hedge fund manager or something instead of playing trade simulator ^_^
Did you follow the start of Ambush/Invasion? If yes, you know what I mean. There are always those hardcore players that invest a lot of time and figure out wholes to get rich ridicously fast. It doesn't have to make sense to you or me. What matters is that it happens.
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Just had a big brain fart.
I went afk in an instance on 1MHC league. Just had to get some water so no problem. Then my short term attention span made me forget everything as soon as I entered the kitchen and did a number of things (toilet, getting the mail etc)
When I got back a single monster had killed me.
Hahahaha
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On July 30 2014 03:49 Miragee wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2014 03:13 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:
At the very start of the league if you have enough capital to control high end uniques then you should probably be a hedge fund manager or something instead of playing trade simulator ^_^ Did you follow the start of Ambush/Invasion? If yes, you know what I mean. There are always those hardcore players that invest a lot of time and figure out wholes to get rich ridicously fast. It doesn't have to make sense to you or me. What matters is that it happens.
You say this like people getting rich is a problem. I have no problem with people working hard to get rich.
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On July 30 2014 04:29 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2014 03:49 Miragee wrote:On July 30 2014 03:13 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:
At the very start of the league if you have enough capital to control high end uniques then you should probably be a hedge fund manager or something instead of playing trade simulator ^_^ Did you follow the start of Ambush/Invasion? If yes, you know what I mean. There are always those hardcore players that invest a lot of time and figure out wholes to get rich ridicously fast. It doesn't have to make sense to you or me. What matters is that it happens. You say this like people getting rich is a problem. I have no problem with people working hard to get rich.
No it isn't. It is only a problem if there is a system in place that allows rich people to monopolise certain goods: aka AH.
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EPT
