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Pufftrees
Profile Joined March 2009
2449 Posts
February 19 2013 15:49 GMT
#6401
You want hack n slash without rng.... Well I'm glad the devs ignore requests like this lol
Chance favors the prepared mind.
Pwere
Profile Joined April 2010
Canada1557 Posts
February 19 2013 17:05 GMT
#6402
On February 20 2013 00:38 mordk wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 19 2013 20:45 Tobberoth wrote:
On February 19 2013 18:24 Avs wrote:
And then there's maps. Let's say you want to be able to experience all maps of all rarities and types. That further isolates exactly how you're going to build the character. Infinite builds? Nope. Infinite customization? Nope. Still boils down to min/max effectiveness. But again like I said, I understand that's what people who like PoE are looking for. To me, that actually doesn't make PoE any better than D3. They both fail to change or solve the ARPG problem.

This isn't an ARPG problem, it's ARPG gameplay. That's how it works. If you make any build or customization viable for the hardest content, there's no reason to customize anything. You get a basic D3 situation where customization is irrelevant because everything is about just as viable, there's no thoughtprocess needed. Pick a skill which looks fun and use only that one.

What makes fun customization is when you can make "bad" builds work by using your brain and gear. Sure, you might not be able to do every single map in the game, but who said you have to do that? Should even any class at all be able to do that? I say no. Min-maxing is fine as long as it's fun to do and everything else is fun as well, your duelist summoner doesn't HAVE to be able to do the hardest map in the game.
The main problem I have with this game is difficulty and combat. Difficulty because enemies either 1-shot you with ridiculous amounts of damage (since armor is less effective the harder an attack hits), or they don't pose a threat at all, which gets boring. And yes, D3 is a lot harder.
The 1-shot aspect is, unfortunately, part of the game now. That's what happens when instead of healing you put in life leech, life on hit, and ridiculous amount of life regen. There were a few of us in CB warning against this, but apparently most people like it. We gave up when they announced buffs to the life leech and LoHit support gem at high levels. This is part of why I much prefer short races. The game is good without leech.

The other problem currently is that groups are OP as hell. Lots of "endgame" builds are only viable in groups. The problem with melee is that they're weaker when grouped with ranged classes. But solo-wise, melee does better than tons of these builds. Obviously, the truly OP builds do just fine either way, but you can hardly blame the game for balance problems one month in the open beta.
Qaatar
Profile Joined January 2011
1409 Posts
February 19 2013 17:05 GMT
#6403
On February 20 2013 00:38 mordk wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 19 2013 20:45 Tobberoth wrote:
On February 19 2013 18:24 Avs wrote:
And then there's maps. Let's say you want to be able to experience all maps of all rarities and types. That further isolates exactly how you're going to build the character. Infinite builds? Nope. Infinite customization? Nope. Still boils down to min/max effectiveness. But again like I said, I understand that's what people who like PoE are looking for. To me, that actually doesn't make PoE any better than D3. They both fail to change or solve the ARPG problem.

This isn't an ARPG problem, it's ARPG gameplay. That's how it works. If you make any build or customization viable for the hardest content, there's no reason to customize anything. You get a basic D3 situation where customization is irrelevant because everything is about just as viable, there's no thoughtprocess needed. Pick a skill which looks fun and use only that one.

What makes fun customization is when you can make "bad" builds work by using your brain and gear. Sure, you might not be able to do every single map in the game, but who said you have to do that? Should even any class at all be able to do that? I say no. Min-maxing is fine as long as it's fun to do and everything else is fun as well, your duelist summoner doesn't HAVE to be able to do the hardest map in the game.

The problem here is that you cannot make a bad build work with your brain and gear in every situation. It won't happen. For example, right now AFAIK there is no melee in the top levels, all those builds are ranged, because melee just will not survive. Things like a triple elementalist witch also suck because your survivability is too low, etc, there are countless examples that just won't work on the endgame, and there's no way they will work, barring some balance patches.

I'm not saying this is a bad thing, but what you're saying is just wrong, "bad" builds will not work.



Melee is underpowered and extremely limited, which is why the devs have stated that they are working on balance changes. However, that isn't the point of the original poster. I believe the point was to "experience" all maps of all types, and quite honestly, this is just a question of where you draw the line. No build in the game currently can faceroll every single map mod combo solo, like I previously stated, and I'm pretty sure every top level party of 6 on the HC ladder still won't dare head into Vaal's room in the maze map.

However, build X might be able to solo 95% (just an arbitrary percentage) of the map mod combos, while build Y might only be able to do 50% of them with a low chance of dying. The question here is, where do you draw the line for a build to be considered "good", and for another build to not be considered viable at all? I believe that's subjective, and therefore, I don't agree with the point of the original poster. No, there aren't infinite possibilities, and some builds will be stronger than others, but every single build (outside of some clearly unbalanced types, like many pure melee builds), can do maps. Just not every single mod, and perhaps not every single boss (I'm not touching Oak solo with a 10 foot pole either).
Unentschieden
Profile Joined August 2007
Germany1471 Posts
February 19 2013 17:12 GMT
#6404
The first thing they need to do is to drop "melee" from Groundslam and Lightning strike. Yeah it´ll hurt LOADS of builds but unless melee actually means standing right next to the target they won´t be able to balance the associated skills/passives correctly.
AnotherRandom
Profile Joined May 2012
Canada81 Posts
February 19 2013 17:14 GMT
#6405
I'm not terribly experienced with maps but I don't think there's a map that my summoner can't do.
Teamliquid is one of the dumbest gaming communities on the internet.
Tennet
Profile Joined January 2010
United States1458 Posts
February 19 2013 17:21 GMT
#6406
Extra lightning damage
monster damage
more projectiles
no regen
minus resist
chaos dot or blood magic

glhf
"The harder it gets, the more you need to focus on the basics." - Seo Gyung Jong
Qaatar
Profile Joined January 2011
1409 Posts
February 19 2013 17:30 GMT
#6407
On February 20 2013 02:14 AnotherRandom wrote:
I'm not terribly experienced with maps but I don't think there's a map that my summoner can't do.


Have fun with blood magic.
Butcherski
Profile Joined April 2010
Poland446 Posts
February 19 2013 17:32 GMT
#6408
Add me in game @ Butcherski

lvl 79 searching for some people to run maps with on default
"Well Tasteless, i once met a three-toed sloth with good marauder control " - Artosis
NotSorry
Profile Blog Joined October 2002
United States6722 Posts
February 19 2013 17:43 GMT
#6409
I think alot of people are confusing getting 1shotted by a single attack from a single source, with getting hit by a ton of things at once. I've had multiple mid 70s in cb and alpha and I have honestly never been 1shotted as a ranger.
We have now sunk to a depth at which restatement of the obvious is the first duty of intelligent men. - Orwell
furlyman
Profile Joined September 2011
55 Posts
February 19 2013 17:44 GMT
#6410
The fun of ARPG's is that its similar to gambling in the fact that you can RNG an amazing item, but mostly you get useless stuff. Its like that at lvl 1 all the way up to lvl 77 maps. Dont see what the problem with that is, if you dont like the RNG / gambling / hoping to get items style of gameplay, ARPG is not for you =).

On a side note, this game does a great job with high risk / high reward style RNG gameplay (the whole crafting system is a great example) which I think will keep this game fresh even when the market starts to see many good items. You can almost always exalt something and have a "chance" of it being better =)
Archers_bane
Profile Joined February 2011
United States1338 Posts
February 19 2013 17:52 GMT
#6411
So...anyone know how much currency you need to be considered "rich" or at least well off? Lol, would be interesting to know how much everyone here has

I have like 6 exalts worth of currency only, a lot of currency in items waiting to be moved, but really lazy to do it
Starcraft's BW glory days have passed, RIP Jaedong's dominance - 2013...EDIT 2017: WE BACK BOYS
Shinbi
Profile Joined December 2009
338 Posts
February 19 2013 18:14 GMT
#6412
On February 20 2013 02:52 Archers_bane wrote:
So...anyone know how much currency you need to be considered "rich" or at least well off? Lol, would be interesting to know how much everyone here has

I have like 6 exalts worth of currency only, a lot of currency in items waiting to be moved, but really lazy to do it


I only have ~11 exalts worth and I still think I'm rather poor =/
Qaatar
Profile Joined January 2011
1409 Posts
February 19 2013 18:18 GMT
#6413
On February 20 2013 02:52 Archers_bane wrote:
So...anyone know how much currency you need to be considered "rich" or at least well off? Lol, would be interesting to know how much everyone here has

I have like 6 exalts worth of currency only, a lot of currency in items waiting to be moved, but really lazy to do it


I've seen people on the HC trade forums offer like 25 exalts worth of stuff for Lioneye's Glare. I'm pretty sure there are people who abuse d2jsp who have hundreds of exalts. In default, I'm sure it's even more insane.

Personally, I'm almost level 82 in HC, and I only have about as much as you (5-6 exalts). I'd say a stack of exalts would be considered well off.
r.Evo
Profile Joined August 2006
Germany14081 Posts
February 19 2013 18:26 GMT
#6414
On February 20 2013 03:18 Qaatar wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 20 2013 02:52 Archers_bane wrote:
So...anyone know how much currency you need to be considered "rich" or at least well off? Lol, would be interesting to know how much everyone here has

I have like 6 exalts worth of currency only, a lot of currency in items waiting to be moved, but really lazy to do it


I've seen people on the HC trade forums offer like 25 exalts worth of stuff for Lioneye's Glare. I'm pretty sure there are people who abuse d2jsp who have hundreds of exalts. In default, I'm sure it's even more insane.

Personally, I'm almost level 82 in HC, and I only have about as much as you (5-6 exalts). I'd say a stack of exalts would be considered well off.

d2jsp is one of the worst things for those types of games imo.
"We don't make mistakes here, we call it happy little accidents." ~Bob Ross
Blitzkrieg0
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States13132 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-02-19 18:33:07
February 19 2013 18:32 GMT
#6415
On February 20 2013 03:18 Qaatar wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 20 2013 02:52 Archers_bane wrote:
So...anyone know how much currency you need to be considered "rich" or at least well off? Lol, would be interesting to know how much everyone here has

I have like 6 exalts worth of currency only, a lot of currency in items waiting to be moved, but really lazy to do it


I've seen people on the HC trade forums offer like 25 exalts worth of stuff for Lioneye's Glare. I'm pretty sure there are people who abuse d2jsp who have hundreds of exalts. In default, I'm sure it's even more insane.

Personally, I'm almost level 82 in HC, and I only have about as much as you (5-6 exalts). I'd say a stack of exalts would be considered well off.


Even mirrors aren't trading that high on default. Seen mirrors sold for just 15-20 exalts.
I'll always be your shadow and veil your eyes from states of ain soph aur.
Tennet
Profile Joined January 2010
United States1458 Posts
February 19 2013 18:32 GMT
#6416
I haven't bothered to calc it but i have like 3-4 exalt in wealth in HC, I was at 8 exalt yesterday but I've been upgrading and things.
"The harder it gets, the more you need to focus on the basics." - Seo Gyung Jong
T0F4sT
Profile Joined September 2011
Netherlands317 Posts
February 19 2013 19:27 GMT
#6417
On February 20 2013 02:05 Pwere wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 20 2013 00:38 mordk wrote:
On February 19 2013 20:45 Tobberoth wrote:
On February 19 2013 18:24 Avs wrote:
And then there's maps. Let's say you want to be able to experience all maps of all rarities and types. That further isolates exactly how you're going to build the character. Infinite builds? Nope. Infinite customization? Nope. Still boils down to min/max effectiveness. But again like I said, I understand that's what people who like PoE are looking for. To me, that actually doesn't make PoE any better than D3. They both fail to change or solve the ARPG problem.

This isn't an ARPG problem, it's ARPG gameplay. That's how it works. If you make any build or customization viable for the hardest content, there's no reason to customize anything. You get a basic D3 situation where customization is irrelevant because everything is about just as viable, there's no thoughtprocess needed. Pick a skill which looks fun and use only that one.

What makes fun customization is when you can make "bad" builds work by using your brain and gear. Sure, you might not be able to do every single map in the game, but who said you have to do that? Should even any class at all be able to do that? I say no. Min-maxing is fine as long as it's fun to do and everything else is fun as well, your duelist summoner doesn't HAVE to be able to do the hardest map in the game.
The main problem I have with this game is difficulty and combat. Difficulty because enemies either 1-shot you with ridiculous amounts of damage (since armor is less effective the harder an attack hits), or they don't pose a threat at all, which gets boring. And yes, D3 is a lot harder.
The 1-shot aspect is, unfortunately, part of the game now. That's what happens when instead of healing you put in life leech, life on hit, and ridiculous amount of life regen. There were a few of us in CB warning against this, but apparently most people like it. We gave up when they announced buffs to the life leech and LoHit support gem at high levels. This is part of why I much prefer short races. The game is good without leech.

The other problem currently is that groups are OP as hell. Lots of "endgame" builds are only viable in groups. The problem with melee is that they're weaker when grouped with ranged classes. But solo-wise, melee does better than tons of these builds. Obviously, the truly OP builds do just fine either way, but you can hardly blame the game for balance problems one month in the open beta.


Oh man, this 1000 times.
Even doing maps with 2-3 people just removes a big part of dying+ if you combine the auras people run..
Sure you want people to party up and play together.
but the difference between solo play and party play is just too damn big.
I'm gla bonus d they nerfed the XP/quantityon groups, atleast one thng that is less OP now.
i
EGdoto #dealwithit
T0F4sT
Profile Joined September 2011
Netherlands317 Posts
February 19 2013 19:29 GMT
#6418
On February 20 2013 03:32 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 20 2013 03:18 Qaatar wrote:
On February 20 2013 02:52 Archers_bane wrote:
So...anyone know how much currency you need to be considered "rich" or at least well off? Lol, would be interesting to know how much everyone here has

I have like 6 exalts worth of currency only, a lot of currency in items waiting to be moved, but really lazy to do it


I've seen people on the HC trade forums offer like 25 exalts worth of stuff for Lioneye's Glare. I'm pretty sure there are people who abuse d2jsp who have hundreds of exalts. In default, I'm sure it's even more insane.

Personally, I'm almost level 82 in HC, and I only have about as much as you (5-6 exalts). I'd say a stack of exalts would be considered well off.


Even mirrors aren't trading that high on default. Seen mirrors sold for just 15-20 exalts.



I would say there are more mirrors in the game then, Lioneye's Glare/Kaom's Heart.
EGdoto #dealwithit
Blitzkrieg0
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States13132 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-02-19 19:39:39
February 19 2013 19:37 GMT
#6419
On February 20 2013 04:29 T0F4sT wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 20 2013 03:32 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:
On February 20 2013 03:18 Qaatar wrote:
On February 20 2013 02:52 Archers_bane wrote:
So...anyone know how much currency you need to be considered "rich" or at least well off? Lol, would be interesting to know how much everyone here has

I have like 6 exalts worth of currency only, a lot of currency in items waiting to be moved, but really lazy to do it


I've seen people on the HC trade forums offer like 25 exalts worth of stuff for Lioneye's Glare. I'm pretty sure there are people who abuse d2jsp who have hundreds of exalts. In default, I'm sure it's even more insane.

Personally, I'm almost level 82 in HC, and I only have about as much as you (5-6 exalts). I'd say a stack of exalts would be considered well off.


Even mirrors aren't trading that high on default. Seen mirrors sold for just 15-20 exalts.



I would say there are more mirrors in the game then, Lioneye's Glare/Kaom's Heart.


Certainly, but a rare is better than a unique in most cases. Certain builds revolve around a unique, but for most players a mirror is more valuable assuming you have something to copy. I've seen quite a few 6L rares that have super rolls for people to copy on the forums already.

Kaom's Heart won't be nearly as rare as it was in CB because maps are higher level now as well. So much easier to get level 68 drops than it was before.
I'll always be your shadow and veil your eyes from states of ain soph aur.
T0F4sT
Profile Joined September 2011
Netherlands317 Posts
February 19 2013 19:48 GMT
#6420
On February 20 2013 04:37 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 20 2013 04:29 T0F4sT wrote:
On February 20 2013 03:32 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:
On February 20 2013 03:18 Qaatar wrote:
On February 20 2013 02:52 Archers_bane wrote:
So...anyone know how much currency you need to be considered "rich" or at least well off? Lol, would be interesting to know how much everyone here has

I have like 6 exalts worth of currency only, a lot of currency in items waiting to be moved, but really lazy to do it


I've seen people on the HC trade forums offer like 25 exalts worth of stuff for Lioneye's Glare. I'm pretty sure there are people who abuse d2jsp who have hundreds of exalts. In default, I'm sure it's even more insane.

Personally, I'm almost level 82 in HC, and I only have about as much as you (5-6 exalts). I'd say a stack of exalts would be considered well off.


Even mirrors aren't trading that high on default. Seen mirrors sold for just 15-20 exalts.



I would say there are more mirrors in the game then, Lioneye's Glare/Kaom's Heart.


Certainly, but a rare is better than a unique in most cases. Certain builds revolve around a unique, but for most players a mirror is more valuable assuming you have something to copy. I've seen quite a few 6L rares that have super rolls for people to copy on the forums already.

Kaom's Heart won't be nearly as rare as it was in CB because maps are higher level now as well. So much easier to get level 68 drops than it was before.


I saw a post yesterday, after 5 chances he got a Lioneye's Glare...
makes me wanna cry

I haven't seen any Kaom's Heart might take a while till some one gets one.
EGdoto #dealwithit
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