EPTPath of Exile - Page 1533
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Guild invites: Message any of EvoSenseOfPride, ScionViableORly, neophyteWham, TheTouchOfGOLD in game OR post your character name in the thread and ask for an invite Private league ladder (finished): https://www.pathofexile.com/private-leagues/league/TeamLiquid and friends | ||
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Duvon
Sweden2360 Posts
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Duka08
3391 Posts
Right now spell damage is both high, AND the builds feel cheap and easy to get going. If either of those aspects were looked at a bit I'm sure boatloads of people would play melee. I was mostly melee (specifically molten strike) for the majority of my first few leagues, wasn't until like just 3.5 and 3.6 that I really dove into spell stuff and new ascendancies. And I'd happily go back. Main reason I'm probably going to play Flashback soon, because I want to get my Trickster ideas in again before 3.7 in case any melee changes are optimistic. | ||
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-Archangel-
Croatia7457 Posts
On May 06 2019 06:51 Duka08 wrote: Yeah I think "melee vs clear speed" is a bit overstated. As mentioned, plenty of melee stuff was considered OP with shaper stat sticks, especially single target, so all it needs is a bit of dmg help. All the best/most popular melee skills might be technically slower than the top clear spells, but I think people would still play them if the gap between spells and melee didn't feel as dramatic (especially if melee builds weren't so expensive/tougher to get "online" compared to spell builds). Right now spell damage is both high, AND the builds feel cheap and easy to get going. If either of those aspects were looked at a bit I'm sure boatloads of people would play melee. I was mostly melee (specifically molten strike) for the majority of my first few leagues, wasn't until like just 3.5 and 3.6 that I really dove into spell stuff and new ascendancies. And I'd happily go back. Main reason I'm probably going to play Flashback soon, because I want to get my Trickster ideas in again before 3.7 in case any melee changes are optimistic. I think it should be made opposite. Top end melee skills were (and are still) on par or even better than spells. The problems always was the other 90% of melee skills. I can make any kind of spell caster I want and have it do decent in red maps. I cannot do same with melee skills. Only some of them work well and only with top end gear. Melee skills overall need dps and survivability buffs, not nerfs to spells. Spells are finally at a stage where you are not required to use BV, totems or mines to do well, why destroy that now?! | ||
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Duka08
3391 Posts
On May 06 2019 07:05 -Archangel- wrote: I think it should be made opposite. Top end melee skills were (and are still) on par or even better than spells. The problems always was the other 90% of melee skills. I can make any kind of spell caster I want and have it do decent in red maps. I cannot do same with melee skills. Only some of them work well and only with top end gear. Melee skills overall need dps and survivability buffs, not nerfs to spells. Spells are finally at a stage where you are not required to use BV, totems or mines to do well, why destroy that now?! I didn't say nerf spells | ||
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
The signpost here is the fact that Resolute Technique is basically not a Keystone that anyone wants to take anymore. Prior to 3.1, Sunder was the king of SSF and still very competitive on trade leagues, Cyclone was a reasonable choice for all available content, and a ton of other RT-based melee builds could be geared cost-effectively due to the relatively low demand for DPS stats to do content. You just needed a 5-socket chest, a half-decent Siege Axe (or two), and Life/Res everywhere else and that was good enough to get you to red maps with Sunder, Earthquake, Cleave, etc. You can still do that. The problem is not the inability for melee builds to clear content. The problem is that it's not worth the effort because it's so easy to buy gear for anything else that does that content more quickly and more easily. Shaper/Elder gear representing the new ceiling for gear basically means that the cost of "good enough"-level non-Shaper/Elder gear is depressed due to demand plummeting after the first few days of the league. Fossil crafting drastically improves the accessibility of decent gear for everyone, and in general, it's way easier to get great gear that would have been extremely rare/valuable pre-3.1. It's not *worth* playing RT-based melee because being able to gear cost-effectively is no longer a valuable trait, when everything can gear cost-effectively because of how much easier it is to get good gear. | ||
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-Archangel-
Croatia7457 Posts
And looking at upvotes seems at least reddit agrees with him. | ||
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Archeon
3253 Posts
Often the fun in ARPGs lies in tearing through a mass of monsters imo, slowing down ranged clear speed to the point where "real" melee (as in run next to an enemy, hit them, run to the next enemy, hit them etc) becomes a competitive alternative would make the game tedious to play. Stuff like frost blades could be competitive with a numbers buff, but I'm not sure I'd count that as melee, it's functionally the same as something like arc with a lower range. | ||
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Duka08
3391 Posts
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Duvon
Sweden2360 Posts
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EchelonTee
United States5245 Posts
I do kind of think that it would widen build disparity in a bad way though. So the equivalent of Winter Orb would still be just as fast as before, while other builds would be much, much slower. Either way I doubt they will make any sweeping changes until 4.0. For melee rework I'm betting they'll do stuff similar to 3.6; a new support gem or two that heavily buffs melee, super buffing an ascendency like they did for trickster, maybe some animation changes at the most. I think that would be enough tbh, don't know why people are so cynical. There actually were metas in the past where melee was top tier, it's only impossible if you're picky on what counts as melee. | ||
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-Archangel-
Croatia7457 Posts
I didn't have this with any other game. All other games occupy my brain enough that I never doze off. I attribute this to its mindless clear speed gameplay :D | ||
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ramon
Germany4842 Posts
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Logo
United States7542 Posts
On May 09 2019 16:39 EchelonTee wrote: I kind of think it would be more fun if they did some sort of monster health up, damage down thing, mostly because I'm tired of doing 3-4 minute maps that require all this out of map crap. Like sextants, prophecies, etc. I've stopped doing elder/shaper flip flop because it's a PITA. Also sometimes the gameplay feels really mindless. If the maps themselves were longer, the between map maintenance wouldn't be so bad and theoretically the gameplay would be less mind numbing. I do kind of think that it would widen build disparity in a bad way though. So the equivalent of Winter Orb would still be just as fast as before, while other builds would be much, much slower. Either way I doubt they will make any sweeping changes until 4.0. For melee rework I'm betting they'll do stuff similar to 3.6; a new support gem or two that heavily buffs melee, super buffing an ascendency like they did for trickster, maybe some animation changes at the most. I think that would be enough tbh, don't know why people are so cynical. There actually were metas in the past where melee was top tier, it's only impossible if you're picky on what counts as melee. I don't know that damage down, health up would accomplish anything. People would just cut survivability for more damage without lowering their Time to Die. Though I think it could be good/interesting for rare monsters where they're often indistinguishable from any other trash mob. | ||
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-Archangel-
Croatia7457 Posts
On May 09 2019 23:38 Logo wrote: I don't know that damage down, health up would accomplish anything. People would just cut survivability for more damage without lowering their Time to Die. Though I think it could be good/interesting for rare monsters where they're often indistinguishable from any other trash mob. Well the point would be to up enemy HP enough that average players cannot up their damage to one shot whole screens of white enemies. Players that spent 20ex on gear to have some really power build should be able to still do whatever, that is the reward for playing well and having a good and expensive build. But those are 0.1% of the playerbase. The 99.9% should not be punished because of them. | ||
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clusen
Germany8702 Posts
On May 09 2019 18:42 -Archangel- wrote: Path of Exile is unique game for me in one aspect. When I am tired and sleepy but I keep playing it I sometimes doze off during mapping. It lasts for few seconds but unless I shutdown the game I cannot keep myself awake by playing it. I didn't have this with any other game. All other games occupy my brain enough that I never doze off. I attribute this to its mindless clear speed gameplay :D Yes, but that is what the majority wants. The faster the game became the more popular it got. Everything about the game that was slowing down gameplay or was really dangerous was hated by many and got removed. I stopped playing hardcore because the game became so dumb that you switch off and, well, then you die :D | ||
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Logo
United States7542 Posts
On May 09 2019 23:43 -Archangel- wrote: Well the point would be to up enemy HP enough that average players cannot up their damage to one shot whole screens of white enemies. Players that spent 20ex on gear to have some really power build should be able to still do whatever, that is the reward for playing well and having a good and expensive build. But those are 0.1% of the playerbase. The 99.9% should not be punished because of them. That doesn't fundamentally change the game though? It just makes it slower and you put all of the same incentives in place. You'd still run fast clear builds they'd just clear slower. At best it just seems like a nerf to DoT effects (ED+Contagian and the like) where it's difficult to double up the damage on trash mobs | ||
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Duvon
Sweden2360 Posts
Currently only really weak characters dont 1shot white regular mobs. My initial thought was that for regular builds, melee 1shots regular mobs, while ranged 1,5-2 shots them. This seems fitting due to the opportunity cost difference. (DoT should still 1shot, but maybe even slower than 2 attacks/spellcasts.) Stronger builds would move the 1-shot barrier past blue mobs, really strong even past weak rares. Only the 0,01% should 1-shot strong rares. Some things makes this harder to quantify though - what content should you balance around? Up to 68 its easy, zones are mostly equal level, but when you hit maps, or if you start delving, you quickly overlevel the content thats readily available. So now we might wanna have a look at map levels and exp gains etc. Another wrench is thrown by semi-ranged builds like shattering steel, freeze pulse, blight etc. | ||
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clusen
Germany8702 Posts
On May 10 2019 01:05 Logo wrote: That doesn't fundamentally change the game though? It just makes it slower and you put all of the same incentives in place. You'd still run fast clear builds they'd just clear slower. At best it just seems like a nerf to DoT effects (ED+Contagian and the like) where it's difficult to double up the damage on trash mobs DoT spells (and WOrb) have to get nerfed anyway if you want melee to be comparatively good / the game to remain good, they are mechanically far superior to any skill that has to stand still to do damage. It's not a coincidence that those are the top spells this league. Add ES / EB + MOM to the equation compared to how much life you can get on the other side of the tree and you see how skewed the balance is. I totally agree that buffing monster health is not going to do much good, it just makes the game less fun to play for anyone that is new / not experienced enough yet. For my last character this league I switched to trade league to play melee, let's see how it goes. I don't want to invest a lot of currency, but I'm not sure I will get a decent build without it. | ||
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EchelonTee
United States5245 Posts
On May 09 2019 21:40 ramon wrote: accidentally left the guild instead of a party... i would like to rejoin: consecratedmypants I added you I think at this point, melee in trade league is fine tbh, most gear is cheaper. You can get started with a voidforge or atziri's disfavour that is stupid cheap. Can also try to make the broken synthesis weapons if you want, but it would probably be too hard to trade when flashback comes out | ||
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Duvon
Sweden2360 Posts
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