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On March 18 2019 21:09 chuDr3t4 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2019 20:30 -Archangel- wrote:
I didn't get maps from betrayal dudes or I got them rare enough that I don't really remember getting them.
Bug with getting better maps was fixed within 2 weeks. Most player base didn't abuse it that much because not everyone is speedrunning the game.
Scarabs were RNG, I maybe got 2 that increased map drops.
Cost of maps after 1+ month means little, most players already quit the league by then. Also not everyone buys maps to run them. I managed to get to guardians with very little map buying. I used Delve and Incursion to get more red maps and eventually get to guardians. Betrayal mechanics gave me least maps. everywhere i post betrayal breakdown someone responds w/ their personal anecdote sheesh I am not telling every person what he or she could've expiernced, I am explaining that Betrayal as a whole gave a lot of maps, and map price history prove it. day 10 of BHC guardian maps were 12ctwelve chaos!!!! when zana elder mod was 16 chaos I got to guardians no map trading in both Delve and Betrayal completely skipping league mechanics (such is live as pussy on HC). I am not buying maps, I am selling them, and Synthesis before buff was IMO superfine, but reddit had to ruin everything as always.
All that proves is that people ran breachstones over guardian maps. It says nothing about how plentiful map drops were.
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Russian Federation484 Posts
On March 18 2019 21:40 -Archangel- wrote:
All that proves is that people ran breachstones over guardian maps. It says nothing about how plentiful map drops were.
I am not sure why you're replying to me then, when I am saying that Atlas drops were fine pre-buff, and I am convinced they were same as Delve and Betrayal.
Maybe higher chance to +1/+2(!) on maps lower than T10 was all that needed, but who knows what they touched.
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On March 18 2019 21:59 chuDr3t4 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2019 21:40 -Archangel- wrote:
All that proves is that people ran breachstones over guardian maps. It says nothing about how plentiful map drops were. I am not sure why you're replying to me then, when I am saying that Atlas drops were fine pre-buff, and I am convinced they were same as Delve and Betrayal. Maybe higher chance to +1/+2(!) on maps lower than T10 was all that needed, but who knows what they touched.
Does not matter what you were convinced since GGG said they were not same as they tweek drop chances for each league.
Unless you are saying that the buff to drop rates they just did was a lie and that they didn't change anything.
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Russian Federation484 Posts
Chris did not confirm that, he confirmed different thing entirely.
He is not the guy that toches the drops
He was out of country this week
What he posted yesterday was pure PR.
Hhe said that there is a precedent about changing droprates over time.
0 confirmation about Betrayal->Synthesis transition exactly.
They could as well be the same.
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If you think droprates were fine i really wanna know how you were sustaining (if at all?).
My situation currently is that after buying literally 95% of the maps i needed on the way from t1-t16 completion including the shaper kill for the elder orb, im still trying to farm up the 8 guardian maps needed for an uber elder kill which i refuse to buy at 25c per map (dont have that currency anyway).
I bought 3 elder ugs maps, chiseled, alched, sextant and bloodline modded. Those dropped only lower level maps. After running about 50 maps going up and down im not at 2 t16, 0 t15, 0 t14, 4 t13. My delve is at 167 depth monster level 78 so still very far away from cities that drop t15-t16. I have no sulphite to get deeper. Im running out of maps. Im running out of chisel (how do you actually sustain them anyway without buying large amounts?) and im running of out chaos, bloodlines seems not to be worth it. Im now level 92, could be 93 if i didnt die so often like a tard. Cartography scarabs are 44c and sulphite scarabs are 34c a pop. They arent worth it unless you play with a big group. I havent done a lot of nexus because it doesnt drop maps like at all anyway.
Im about to call it quits, even after the buff i got nothing today.
If you think thats fine then go ahead please tell me how you play and teach me senpai.
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I had no problems so far, at T10 currently as the highest map drop, but I keep many breaks between mapping, so I can't even say I am hyperfocusing on it. I used 1 chisel so far, only because of a prophecy, and used around 5 sextants, one of those added some mob density. I already have some "reroll map type" orbs stashed up for T10+ maps. So for me, the drop rates were just as good (or bad) as they were in Betrayal.
I do not mind raising the drop rate, and if some official will say the drop rates were screwed, I will believe it in a heartbeat. Right now, we have zero confirmation. Chris said he will look into it, and today they raised it. That is still not confirmation, only an indicator that the drops were indeed probably lower than intended to be.
But the absolute melodrama about it boggles my mind. There was that post on reddit where the guy basically poured dozens of chaos' worth of stuff into running numerous maps, and according to him, he got ZERO maps, and everyone was like "hell yeah, same exact thing is happening to me!!". I'm gonna press (X) Doubt on that one.
Same goes for people saying they could not even sustain white maps or get to yellow ones. Like, sure, I have no idea how tedious it is to farm guardians, but I call bullshit on having trouble of getting to yellows. I have bought ONE map, and only because I needed it for the quest.
Do these people know they can reroll maps to get a different from the same tier? Do they know, they can sell 3 of the same kind to get a higher tier one? Do they clear out the high density maps or just finish whenever they slay the boss? I can believe that some people get seriously unlucky, but for it to be a server-wide issue, that is bonkers.
As for my T10+ experience from the previous league: I actually bought many maps then, constantly used the map reroll orbs, and even then it was an absolute nightmare to progress, so I agree that it is shit at that level, but it has been shit to begin with.
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Russian Federation484 Posts
You bought most of your atlas completion? WHAT? You bought 3 t16 maps to run? You gave up after that?
Have you tried, I don't know, run maps? No wonder you could not sustain. You did it very very wrong.
I drop every map myself, farm white and yellows until every single map drops w/ help of zana horizon mods and zana mission, when I get 5/15 I farm T5->T10 for 2c to get T10s up and push into reds when i flipped gems and levelled them some (lvl 92+). Save nice t10s (moon temple this league), run others and just gradually conjoin into center.
Yes, I mean, that, e.g when I am on T10, I farm T10s until I drop every single T11. That helps to never fall into situation you described.
After I get guardians unlocked I farm nice T10->T15s w/ zana shaped mod to get more t15/t16s.
I am alching starting w/ T1, chisel only T14s and higher. Don't use zana league mods until T14.
Add: also I clear every map until <50 monsters and kill almost all map bosses (skip 1-2 per league like belfry (takes too long) and primordial (too dangerous)).
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People like to complain about map sustain and all, but the game is really boring when it's too easy to sustain t16's. The most boring leagues for me were the ones where sustain was so easy t16's were going for dirt cheap. It shouldn't be so easy that timmy mccasual can alch and go and sustain t16's without investing into it.
As for how to sustain, there isn't that much to it. Obviously chisel the high tier maps you want to sustain. Alch them to >20% pack size. Use sextants, roll over the sextants that don't give more packs or drops. Either vaal the maps or run zana mods. If you want to tryhard, make an elder blob on the map you want to sustain. If you run out of t16's, run your t15 of choice, since you should get a lot of it from running the t16's. If you run out of those, run t14's, while you replenish your t15's, etc...
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I managed to go down to my very last map on T3 (after having completed all T1/2's)... Felt kinda hilarious. But i hadn't bought the Zana Maps at that point and didn't have a real problem after i did, but it felt weird to realise that i just put in my last map and had troubles sustaining T1-3  .
Getting into higher Tiers feels a bit slow but not totally out of the ordinary, could also be tainted memory because i was so extremly lucky at league start last league and had absolutely terrible luck this league
Its fine now, but till lvl 82 it was actually hilarious how just nothing dropped for me, barely any C/Fusings, halfway decent rares or uniques to make a few C. Luckily Bane is ridiculous.
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On March 19 2019 00:11 chuDr3t4 wrote:
You bought most of your atlas completion? WHAT? You bought 3 t16 maps to run? You gave up after that?
Have you tried, I don't know, run maps? No wonder you could not sustain. You did it very very wrong.
Only initially, that was a week ago now, just to have atlas completion asap. I realize that im not supposed to have every map drop in succession and just run new maps all the time by my own, but once you get to red maps i expect to at least sustain them with chisel and alchs without dropping down two or three tiers.
On March 19 2019 00:11 chuDr3t4 wrote:
I drop every map myself, farm white and yellows until every single map drops w/ help of zana horizon mods and zana mission, when I get 5/15 I farm T5->T10 for 2c to get T10s up and push into reds when i flipped gems and levelled them some (lvl 92+). Save nice t10s (moon temple this league), run others and just gradually conjoin into center.
Yes, I mean, that, e.g when I am on T10, I farm T10s until I drop every single T11. That helps to never fall into situation you described.
I dont see the difference mechanically tbh. If i farm t10 and t10 only i would drop down to t8 because i would run out of t10s and then t9s tryin to sustain those instead of just doing the highest map i have at all times. The maps just dont drop enough maps of their own tier at every tier not just guardian tier.
On March 19 2019 00:11 chuDr3t4 wrote:
After I get guardians unlocked I farm nice T10->T15s w/ zana shaped mod to get more t15/t16s.
Ok i admit i havent been doing that and its a possibilty certainly. Ill try that, though i dont believe you can sustain the chaos orbs for that even after selling t15s you get from that, ill try.
On March 19 2019 00:11 chuDr3t4 wrote:
I am alching starting w/ T1, chisel only T14s and higher. Don't use zana league mods until T14.
Add: also I clear every map until <50 monsters and kill almost all map bosses (skip 1-2 per league like belfry (takes too long) and primordial (too dangerous)). I do that too, i really milk the map, every betrayal, every cranny of the map, every memory fragment, all the bosses. I start to chisel at red maps but dont corrupt them unless for completion.
I dunno, i just want to kill uber elder, not grind for 100 hours to be able to do so.
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Russian Federation484 Posts
The difference mechanically is in amount of maps ran and dropped. You cannot get 20+ T10s in your stash by running each T10 map only once.
And again Zana shaped mods are a godsend to get mappool before push further into Atlas. By not using them you really screwed up sry.
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This whole issue would be way smaller if maps until T10+ with horrible mods woudn't be total pushovers. It devolves into mindless grinding because our toons get way too strong for the maps way too fast. At league start it might take a few levels but with a decently geared char t1-10 might not even exist.
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I was able to play T11-T14 for a few days before the map hotfix dropped and don't think I would have run out of red maps to play, but I didn't make it further without buying maps. The new increase of map drops is definitely noticeable from what I can tell so far, it's nice to have.
I did have a huge issue getting all T10 maps, but somehow T11-T13 were dropping better.
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On March 19 2019 03:12 Velr wrote:
This whole issue would be way smaller if maps until T10+ with horrible mods woudn't be total pushovers. It devolves into mindless grinding because our toons get way too strong for the maps way too fast. At league start it might take a few levels but with a decently geared char t1-10 might not even exist.
I think it's important for T1-10 maps to be the way they are so that there's a sense of progression for people playing bad characters. Most of us are experienced enough that this isn't an issue for us very often, but I've played some hipster builds that didn't work out, and if your character is bad enough the differences among white and yellow maps matter in a way that they don't for a character that's actually good.
If you're in this situation, "red maps are beyond me, but I can safely do white maps and maybe once I save up for that upgrade I'll be able to do yellow maps too" is a much better feeling to have than, "well, I'm done with the leveling content and maps are too scary, guess I'll stop playing." And I think it's important for the game to feel fun and provide you with stuff to do even if you're bad.
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On March 18 2019 20:30 -Archangel- wrote:
Scarabs were RNG, I maybe got 2 that increased map drops.
Scarabs were not RNG. Once you got reasonable relationships set up on your Syndicate, it was very easy to cycle Cameria and Rin on Intervention and start shitting out Sulphite and Carto scarabs.
I never did any low-level Syndicate grinding because it seemed ungodly boring to me, but even with normal mapping, I was self-farming Sulphite and Carto scarabs at a pretty comfortable rate.
On March 18 2019 21:09 chuDr3t4 wrote:
everywhere i post betrayal breakdown someone responds w/ their personal anecdote sheesh
I am not telling every person what he or she could've expiernced, I am explaining that Betrayal as a whole gave a lot of maps, and map price history prove it.
I don't know why this is surprising to people. Sulphite and Carto scarabs were two of the most heavily run Scarabs and both massively contribute to map sustain. Once people figured out that you could reliably mass-farm them, map availability skyrocketed.
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On March 19 2019 03:42 ASoo wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2019 03:12 Velr wrote:
This whole issue would be way smaller if maps until T10+ with horrible mods woudn't be total pushovers. It devolves into mindless grinding because our toons get way too strong for the maps way too fast. At league start it might take a few levels but with a decently geared char t1-10 might not even exist. I think it's important for T1-10 maps to be the way they are so that there's a sense of progression for people playing bad characters. Most of us are experienced enough that this isn't an issue for us very often, but I've played some hipster builds that didn't work out, and if your character is bad enough the differences among white and yellow maps matter in a way that they don't for a character that's actually good. If you're in this situation, "red maps are beyond me, but I can safely do white maps and maybe once I save up for that upgrade I'll be able to do yellow maps too" is a much better feeling to have than, "well, I'm done with the leveling content and maps are too scary, guess I'll stop playing." And I think it's important for the game to feel fun and provide you with stuff to do even if you're bad.
And how would that be diffrent with a steeper or actual difficulty curve?
League Mechanics or Maps are allways way harder than the Maps themselves, I basically just argue to push the maps up to that difficulty in general.
Failing a build so bad that it can't get into yellow maps but was able to clear Acts 4-10 in a reasonable time is pretty much impossible if your not playing something that needs lvl 8Xor specific uniques to get online, which newbs won't do.
Most of the Game is clearly way harder than early maps, its just that Kitava drops your resistances, so if you weren't lucky/didn't farm resists you take way more dmg than you should.
I would much rather have generally more difficult maps than needing to roll them with mods that make them a pain in the ass to play. Horray for Temporal Chains, Frozen Ground or Supercrits - such fun mechanics, yes you can counteract most of that stuff, its still just plain annoying. Why does it often feel like we are fighting Mapmods instead of Monsters?
This also leads to the "fun" fact that juiced up league Mechanics are way more dangerous than anything most Maps including their Bosses throw at you.
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On March 19 2019 09:16 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2019 20:30 -Archangel- wrote:
Scarabs were RNG, I maybe got 2 that increased map drops.
Scarabs were not RNG. Once you got reasonable relationships set up on your Syndicate, it was very easy to cycle Cameria and Rin on Intervention and start shitting out Sulphite and Carto scarabs. I never did any low-level Syndicate grinding because it seemed ungodly boring to me, but even with normal mapping, I was self-farming Sulphite and Carto scarabs at a pretty comfortable rate. Show nested quote +On March 18 2019 21:09 chuDr3t4 wrote:
everywhere i post betrayal breakdown someone responds w/ their personal anecdote sheesh
I am not telling every person what he or she could've expiernced, I am explaining that Betrayal as a whole gave a lot of maps, and map price history prove it.
I don't know why this is surprising to people. Sulphite and Carto scarabs were two of the most heavily run Scarabs and both massively contribute to map sustain. Once people figured out that you could reliably mass-farm them, map availability skyrocketed.
That assumes one enjoyed that league mechanic and had a build that could easily farm them. Also it was still RNG.
I tried to get to Mastermind, not farm specific stuff. And by the time I had a character that could reliably farm Syndicate in red maps I already was able to unlock most of red maps without using scarabs.
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You didnt do syndicate in red maps, you farmed lvl 60 areas like ossuary, harbor bridge or blood aquaducts, stacked the right ones and then ran the safehouse. If you ran research you get 2 pure breachstones, each drops 2 t16 on average, if you did intervention you got 2 cartography scarabs which had 100% more map drops. You could do more than one safehouse per hour after the initial setup. So yes syndicate could create a lot of maps.
Nevertheless the influence of syndicate is blown out of proportion, the mass spam farming of syndicate didnt occur until mid january when the video guide was published and until then most people didnt really do them since you could lock them down in the research stage. I dont think it had too big of an influence on the map price. And certainly it didnt do anything to self sustain if you werent running them yourself.
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On March 19 2019 19:25 Velr wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2019 03:42 ASoo wrote:On March 19 2019 03:12 Velr wrote:
This whole issue would be way smaller if maps until T10+ with horrible mods woudn't be total pushovers. It devolves into mindless grinding because our toons get way too strong for the maps way too fast. At league start it might take a few levels but with a decently geared char t1-10 might not even exist. I think it's important for T1-10 maps to be the way they are so that there's a sense of progression for people playing bad characters. Most of us are experienced enough that this isn't an issue for us very often, but I've played some hipster builds that didn't work out, and if your character is bad enough the differences among white and yellow maps matter in a way that they don't for a character that's actually good. If you're in this situation, "red maps are beyond me, but I can safely do white maps and maybe once I save up for that upgrade I'll be able to do yellow maps too" is a much better feeling to have than, "well, I'm done with the leveling content and maps are too scary, guess I'll stop playing." And I think it's important for the game to feel fun and provide you with stuff to do even if you're bad. And how would that be diffrent with a steeper or actual difficulty curve? League Mechanics or Maps are allways way harder than the Maps themselves, I basically just argue to push the maps up to that difficulty in general. Failing a build so bad that it can't get into yellow maps but was able to clear Acts 4-10 in a reasonable time is pretty much impossible if your not playing something that needs lvl 8Xor specific uniques to get online, which newbs won't do. Most of the Game is clearly way harder than early maps, its just that Kitava drops your resistances, so if you weren't lucky/didn't farm resists you take way more dmg than you should. I would much rather have generally more difficult maps than needing to roll them with mods that make them a pain in the ass to play. Horray for Temporal Chains, Frozen Ground or Supercrits - such fun mechanics, yes you can counteract most of that stuff, its still just plain annoying. Why does it often feel like we are fighting Mapmods instead of Monsters? This also leads to the "fun" fact that juiced up league Mechanics are way more dangerous than anything most Maps including their Bosses throw at you.
I agree about the league vs map stuff. I think a lot of builds flounder not so much in yellow maps but on league mechanics if they spawn in yellow maps.
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I think the bigger problem with maps t1-t10 is that they aren't skippable no matter how good your build is. You have to clear them at least once for the map completion, and likely more times than that for things like shaper influence.
With Act 1->10 you're at least building up your character, using temporary gem setups, getting new gems, dealing with different boss fights that need different resistances, etc.
But with the early mapping you're basically clearing (potentially) trivial content with usually finalized gem setup and max resistances. There's no progression for your character during those maps, just a huge checklist of maps to check off to get that atlas completion up.
I feel like you could do something like remove all white maps from the atlas bonus calculation (just bake their % in by default) and lose pretty much nothing of value for the player base.
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EPT
