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On February 26 2018 18:51 -Archangel- wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2018 18:25 Velr wrote: Is it just my scrubself or is that Trickster overhaul really friggin strong? Looks even better for for RF now, but it is not Occultist/Hiero level. Those two are the best ones. That really depends on what you want to do... For Glacial Cascade for example, Trickster's Harness the Void is way too good. First the Shaper/Elder items, now this. Check Uberelites comment on Reddit if you don't understand why. It's of course possible that after the full patch notes things change in that regard.
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That last comment in that Reddit tread is so spot on about PoE:
"Doesn't the wording for other added as chaos damage avoid using "Hits". In this case it's your hit that gains the added damage, wouldn't that avoid the double dip?"
The language of PoE is so fucked... You basically need a Master in "PoE-English" to read skills/nodes and actually understand what they do ^^.
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I sort of wanna play SSF this league but my friends are scrubs. And it's no fun if you're doing it alone.
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On February 26 2018 20:44 Alur wrote: I sort of wanna play SSF this league but my friends are scrubs. And it's no fun if you're doing it alone. Can you trade within the current session ssf? as in, an item drops, you can put it on the ground and someone else can pick it up in the same area?
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On February 26 2018 23:59 Duvon wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2018 20:44 Alur wrote: I sort of wanna play SSF this league but my friends are scrubs. And it's no fun if you're doing it alone. Can you trade within the current session ssf? as in, an item drops, you can put it on the ground and someone else can pick it up in the same area? Nah, aside from towns, I'm pretty sure you can't even be in the same zone. You can't party up, after all.
What he means is prolly that he wants to tell friends what he finds/fails do to/when he dies per chat, and similarly wants friends who do the same.
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On February 27 2018 00:03 HolydaKing wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2018 23:59 Duvon wrote:On February 26 2018 20:44 Alur wrote: I sort of wanna play SSF this league but my friends are scrubs. And it's no fun if you're doing it alone. Can you trade within the current session ssf? as in, an item drops, you can put it on the ground and someone else can pick it up in the same area? Nah, aside from towns, I'm pretty sure you can't even be in the same zone. You can't party up, after all. *brainfart*
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Solo ssf is meh, but some kind of guild ssf with a cap of XX players could be awesome.
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Powercreep is getting absurd. If this keeps up it's probably the last league for me (heh).
It's actually absurd, why does trickster have a minimum of a 45% more multiplier (potentially scaling way higher depending on how conversion mechanics interact with it), why does the game now come with built in immunity to reflect nodes, why can someone get to maps in 3.5 hours, why do ascendancies exist at all if they're unique to each class.
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Nobody probably cares, but I want to write a bit about my opinions on the new classes, if nothing else in order to get some thoughts straight in my head.
Slayer: + Show Spoiler +RIP. I think new impact is super interesting but it doesn't seem possible to be a slayer without taking both 4-point arms now so I won't be trying it I don't believe. Somebody will figure out a stun build and have fun, but that somebody is probably not me.
Deadeye: + Show Spoiler +basically depends on how good tailwind feels. 20% more attackspeed/movespeed sounds hype for sure, assuming it works that way. If it reduces blink arrow cooldown as well as part of the 'faster' mechanic, then I'll try it although the damage options are surprisingly mediocre once you put all your points into tailwind and blink arrow cd. The bleed node is very nice simply for crit/lgoh on bosses, but then you seriously run out of points before you get the "traditional" deadeye extra projectile/chain etc. Quick shoutout to accuracy stacking builds with oskarm and obscurantis, since "100% more accuracy" is preeeeeeeeeeetty good for those.
Occultist: + Show Spoiler +lots of interesting changes but 60-80% less curse effect is still implicit to the actual spooky monsters in the game. Unless fated windscreams are hella dope I don't think it's worth sinking 4 points into the curse part. The power charge part is very exciting (mostly for 30-40% aoe) and has to be a lock for any occultist caster build that isn't chaos DoT based. The problem is that the rest of your class wants you to be chaos based, and the only good chaos skills are DoT based (maybe there's a dark pact build in here?). The ES buffs are nice although I'm not really a fan of the 30% regen cap xd. Meme talisman required for boss killing ofc. Overall, I haven't figured out what build best abuses all these mechanics best, but there is enough power in the class now if you can figure out the right build. Any actual fix to gigantic less curse effect modifiers and the class is insane.
Elementalist: + Show Spoiler +Maybe it's just me but I simply refuse to play a class based on bullshit rotating timers (part of why i'm so nonplussed by the bullshit set unique "aspect of the dogshit" mechanics). 75% aoe is hype as fuck, but what's the point of even having it if half the time it just isn't there. I'd rather have 25% aoe all the time than 75% half the time, because you can't just wait around for your AoE to be enough for trash clear. That obviates the whole reason to have big aoe: fast trash clear. Ignite is still shit so that whole part of the tree is underwhelming even if it's conceptually hugely powerful. As others have said, 25% pen for 4 points gated behind heralds that might not even help you at all is not competitive with inquisitor. It's nice to see that GGG are willing to give spell leech to classes that aren't berserker, but i don't get why they didn't put a useful number. 0.5% isn't enough to sustain vs single target with default leech, and it's not like you have access to reasonable ways to improve your leech (leech rate, max leech etc). Vaal pact is gone ggg. Golems IDC, it's an interesting buff to golemancer but overall it doesn't really seem enticing.
Trickster: + Show Spoiler +Everybody knows that harness the void is an incredibly broken node like we've never seen before, but I'm not even convinced that people truly grasp how powerful it is right now. If this node goes to live, you'd have to be stupid to be any other class. Most OP abuse is doomfletch's prism ofc, but even glacial cascade with a cold to fire socketed because what the hell is still like 120% MORE dmg, before you factor in bullshit shaper sceptres etc. Now, it's true that there are some shaper sceptres that are almost as busted, but well it's not news how busted they are. New weave the arcane is stupid in that "0 mana cost movement skills" is just so irrelevant on the node that grants you infinite mana, and rewards you for spending mana, but I get that GGG just wanted both those nodes available to appease people who abused them already and ended up mashing them together to make space for the other shit. Patient reaper seems like REAL good now, although I suppose it's not the most reliable for bossing. The 15% more dot node isn't bad, but it's not close to the power level of the rest of trickster right now.
The 4-point ES/EV arm is very very interesting. It sucks that you become so gear dependant, since one of the nice things about getting flat ES on your ascendancy was that you could go CI at like level 60 and have a real amount of ES without needing gear. The first node is still not so exciting, 10% dodge/spelldodge is powerful but not great when you can't really pair it with acro, and "on ES recharge start" is a very very unreliable mechanic. A bit of MS and more chance to evade is very pleasant tho. The 2nd node is what everybody is going insane over, but I think people are overhyping it. Evasion rating is nice, but you could always run a jade flask and have plenty. The best way to abuse thousands of evasion is with queen of the forest, which admittedly sounds very interesting, but what is fundamentally attractive here is the free ES. Old trickster got 250 ES, no strings attached. In order to beat that, you need to beat (ES Chest of comparable value) + (250). So new trickster needs (250*6 = 1500 evasion) + (full es chest) worth of evasion + ES on their chest. That's hard. That means that realistically, new trickster is going to have LESS ES than old trickster, but far far far more evasion. Which is where QotF comes in, since QotF is still a roughly 300-350 ES chest (only 50-100 more than old trickster with qotf tho), and with the right hat (people keep citing vertex, which is a good choice) you'll have a very useable evasion total. It's important to note that your dodge total is still very lacking compared to acro evasion characters.
In practice, trickster can be a ton of builds right now which is very cool. I think that many combinations of nodes are takeable, although I don't get why harness the void is connected to prolonged pain since you'd have to be totally insane to try a poison build with harness the void and trickster in general. Like, really really dumb. Prolonged pain's poison text doesn't actually exist, even if you think it does.
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On February 27 2018 03:36 bo1b wrote: Powercreep is getting absurd. If this keeps up it's probably the last league for me (heh). Could you elaborate? Genuinely curious. I see a lot of people complaining about power creep and it's obviously true, but it doesn't seem as dramatic as people make it sound. And what about power creep specifically turns you off? Pigeonholed into certain builds? Leagues go by way faster because you reach higher levels of gear/content much quicker? I don't have a history with the game so idk what GGG's done in the past that might have people worried or skeptical, etc.
I played a lot of D3 long before I got into PoE so I'm very familiar with power creep and how dumb it can be. I was just surprised by how many people reacted so negatively to the ascendancy buffs. In D3 power creep was literally damage levels doubling or tripling every season for certain builds. This doesn't seem nearly as intense. I guess if 90% of builds/players being Trickster bothers you (and that bothers me too) then I could see why it would be a turn off, assuming it goes live as it is currently. But this is like flipping the table levels of mad. People have been playing shitty builds to endgame bosses for a long time in PoE, be it challenge or preference or whatever, so it's not like those same people must play Trickster now.
Edit: also, it would make more sense if a BUNCH of the new ascendancies were really getting insane buffs and looked crazy. But right now it seems like it's all cuz of ONE NODE on one class. All the other reworks seem to have a generally acceptable reaction, if not skeptical even (like new elementalist, which was already out of favor).
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To me the changes so far are fine, except for Tricksters Harness the Void and Hierophant is a tad too strong. I'm part of the faction who would've liked them to tone down the power of Ascendancys and use old Occultist or Deadeye as benchmarks, but I'm also fine if they wanna make all classes about as strong as Raider. I mean, this way the changes are more drastical and I like changes, more fun to try them out.
@Sn0_Man: I like reading your thoughts. Occultist isn't all chaos based, I mean for Malediction it's good to do non-chaos damage (it got buffed too from 4% to 8%), although that's only for 4 seconds and doesn't help vs bosses. If I had to guess something like dual Obliteration Blade Vortex would be really good.
And yes, I forgot that I also think the Elementalist changes are strange. It still doesn't feel good at all and why do there need to be 2 Witch Ascendancies for a niche build like golems whose usability is largely gated behind T1 rarity jewels.
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On February 27 2018 03:43 Duka08 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 27 2018 03:36 bo1b wrote: Powercreep is getting absurd. If this keeps up it's probably the last league for me (heh). Could you elaborate? Genuinely curious. I see a lot of people complaining about power creep and it's obviously true, but it doesn't seem as dramatic as people make it sound. And what about power creep specifically turns you off? Pigeonholed into certain builds? Leagues go by way faster because you reach higher levels of gear/content much quicker? I don't have a history with the game so idk what GGG's done in the past that might have people worried or skeptical, etc. I played a lot of D3 long before I got into PoE so I'm very familiar with power creep and how dumb it can be. I was just surprised by how many people reacted so negatively to the ascendancy buffs. In D3 power creep was literally damage levels doubling or tripling every season for certain builds. This doesn't seem nearly as intense. I guess if 90% of builds/players being Trickster bothers you (and that bothers me too) then I could see why it would be a turn off, assuming it goes live as it is currently. But this is like flipping the table levels of mad. People have been playing shitty builds to endgame bosses for a long time in PoE, be it challenge or preference or whatever, so it's not like those same people must play Trickster now. Edit: also, it would make more sense if a BUNCH of the new ascendancies were really getting insane buffs and looked crazy. But right now it seems like it's all cuz of ONE NODE on one class. All the other reworks seem to have a generally acceptable reaction, if not skeptical even (like new elementalist, which was already out of favor). It's the antithesis of why I want to play poe. Running around at 180% move speed one hitting mobs in t16 maps and killing the boss in 15 seconds. It also has no way back, and in my opinion no real future. They're doing what blizzard did and are trading long term complexity for short term profit.
Say what you want about cast on crit in pre cospris malice, but it at least had more interactive elements in the passive tree and gear then the majority of builds right now.
All memes aside, the difference between d3 and poe is becoming more artificial by the day, and eventually will reach a point where the graphics and feel of diablo 3 will be superior to poe. I don't want that to happen.
I read a bit more of what you wrote and I'd like to iterate something:
I don't give a damn about what ascendancy people choose, they're all stupidly strong with 0 real drawbacks. I couldn't care less if literally everyone chose trickster. The ultimate problem with powercreep is it trivializes early content, and then it trivializes late content. Consider that there is no functional difference between a rare and a white mob at any stage of the game, outside of early act one. Why even have a rare mob? Why not just have chests with mobs all around them?
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The power creep is also kind of a long-standing thing going back for way longer than just 3.0-3.2. You have to remember there was a time when Ascendancies didn't even exist, and going from not having them to having them was an enormous jump in power.
I didn't play pre-Ascendancy PoE, but when you look at the accumulated jumps in player power over so many leagues, it's far more than just a little power creep. It's not all at once like D3 power creep, but when you add it all up, it's the same. It's the kind of thing where any one patch in isolation looks fine, but the summed effect of every boost in player power for the last 2-3 years is just ridiculous. And in the meantime, enemies haven't really been scaled to compensate for the increasing player power. We've gotten a few more endgame bosses like Shaper and Elder, but the average white mob hasn't really gotten more threatening at all.
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On February 27 2018 04:05 TheYango wrote: The power creep is also kind of a long-standing thing going back for way longer than just 3.0-3.2. You have to remember there was a time when Ascendancies didn't even exist, and going from not having them to having them was an enormous jump in power.
I didn't play pre-Ascendancy PoE, but when you look at the accumulated jumps in player power over so many leagues, it's far more than just a little power creep. It's not all at once like D3 power creep, but when you add it all up, it's the same. Well, it makes sense. People want something new, something that changes their characters. And they (the majority, at least) definitely don't want something that makes them weaker.
One way to battle it would be to add content that really needs the Ascendancies or similar new content, as of right now you can play the game without any of them just fine if you know what you do (though maybe only until high tier maps? idk). I'm not sure how they could do that though, adding content with more monster life just punishes a few builds, adding more damage doesn't work either, since Ascendancies not all increase how much you survive.
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@sn0 I dunno if you played occultist before when curses worked fully on bosses, but it was stupid absurd. uber atziri moving like she's in mud, dealing no damage. occ doesn't really need buff to bossing, it'll have a huge ES pool and wicked ward, and it's damage was already good enough. I think occultist is a very strong option, but it's still not that speedy
slayer didn't get anything but the old slayer builds aren't really affected (minus self bleed stuff), though since everything else is buffed it may fall behind
hierophant buffs seem really good, but when ur totems are killing the beasts too fast it'll suck xD if it wasn't for that I'd for sure roll hiero
@Yango yeah power creep since beta has been insaneeee, but 3.0 was a huge dip down in power. I forgot if you played in double dipping era, but then the damage was 2-3x what we have now, with easy to get 11-14k ES pools. and pre nerf VP. We've powercrept since 3.0, but it's still not the most insane time in PoE, in my opinion.
personally, I'm fine with some power buffs to increase enthusiasm in underused ascendencies. I think the game is in a better state than in 2.5-2.6
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On February 27 2018 04:05 TheYango wrote: The power creep is also kind of a long-standing thing going back for way longer than just 3.0-3.2. You have to remember there was a time when Ascendancies didn't even exist, and going from not having them to having them was an enormous jump in power.
I didn't play pre-Ascendancy PoE, but when you look at the accumulated jumps in player power over so many leagues, it's far more than just a little power creep. It's not all at once like D3 power creep, but when you add it all up, it's the same. I played a lot of d3, and I've played poe since before ascendancies.
The power creep in d3 is in my opinion less game breaking then in poe. Even though poe's powercreep is significantly less dramatic, diablo 3 has been balanced around the idea of an arcade style go until you can't hack and slash. It's shallow as hell, but that's what it is.
Poe has been designed with clear limits as to what a character is supposed to be able to achieve. Doomfletch will break 10 million dps this league, with or without trickster. Power creep in diablo doesn't affect the main game, it just acts as a bandaid to cover up a lack of real content. Power creep in poe shits on the main game, and what's worse is the power creep doesn't just appear late game with stupidly expensive gear, it appears from level 2 now, and level 4 is the most egregious display with ancestral call.
On February 27 2018 04:09 HolydaKing wrote:Show nested quote +On February 27 2018 04:05 TheYango wrote: The power creep is also kind of a long-standing thing going back for way longer than just 3.0-3.2. You have to remember there was a time when Ascendancies didn't even exist, and going from not having them to having them was an enormous jump in power.
I didn't play pre-Ascendancy PoE, but when you look at the accumulated jumps in player power over so many leagues, it's far more than just a little power creep. It's not all at once like D3 power creep, but when you add it all up, it's the same. Well, it makes sense. People want something new, something that changes their characters. And they definitely don't want something that makes them weaker. One way to battle it would be to add content that really needs the Ascendancies or similar new content, as of right now you can play the game without any of them just fine if you know what you do (though maybe only until high tier maps? idk). I'm not sure how they could do that though, adding content with more monster life just punishes a few builds, adding more damage doesn't work either, since Ascendancies not all increase how much you survive. People aren't getting changes though they're getting larger numbers. There is no functional difference in flickerstrike over the last 3 years, it's just way stronger and easier to play.
With the double dip nerf, and coc nerf we've actually lost mechanics not gained them over all.
On February 27 2018 04:10 EchelonTee wrote: @sn0 I dunno if you played occultist before when curses worked fully on bosses, but it was stupid absurd. uber atziri moving like she's in mud, dealing no damage. occ doesn't really need buff to bossing, it'll have a huge ES pool and wicked ward, and it's damage was already good enough. I think occultist is a very strong option, but it's still not that speedy
slayer didn't get anything but the old slayer builds aren't really affected (minus self bleed stuff), though since everything else is buffed it may fall behind
hierophant buffs seem really good, but when ur totems are killing the beasts too fast it'll suck xD if it wasn't for that I'd for sure roll hiero
@Yango yeah power creep since beta has been insaneeee, but 3.0 was a huge dip down in power. I forgot if you played in double dipping era, but then the damage was 2-3x what we have now, with easy to get 11-14k ES pools. We've powercrept since 3.0, but it's still not the most insane time in PoE, in my opinion.
personally, I'm fine with some power buffs to increase enthusiasm in underused ascendencies. I think the game is in a better state than in 2.5-2.6 The 2.5/6 damage was arguably a bug, and in my opinion we've actually increased clear speed and single target dps across the board on almost all builds that didn't abuse it, and weren't vaal something. Wanders have somehow gotten stronger every patch, as an example.
Also I played howa with super gg gear in legacy, with a 930ish es chest and all that, the only thing that could kill me then was reflect and being stupid. They've removed reflect, and they've removed volatiles. I have a slayer tornado shot build using mom, kaoms heart and a lion eyes that has 8k life, 2k mana, fire conversion and a million effective shaper dps for not a lot of currency, and I bet I'll be more tanky on that then I was on the howa character, and probably have more clearspeed.
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On February 27 2018 04:09 HolydaKing wrote: One way to battle it would be to add content that really needs the Ascendancies or similar new content, as of right now you can play the game without any of them just fine if you know what you do (though maybe only until high tier maps? idk). I'm not sure how they could do that though, adding content with more monster life just punishes a few builds, adding more damage doesn't work either, since Ascendancies not all increase how much you survive. They did this, we've slowly gotten end-game bosses like Shaper and Elder tacked onto the end of progression.
The problem is that it doesn't fix the fact that the power creep breaks the progression curve to get to them in the first place (because it makes all the old content easier, even if there's now new content waiting for you at the end).
On February 27 2018 04:10 bo1b wrote: The power creep in d3 is in my opinion less game breaking then in poe. Even though poe's powercreep is significantly less dramatic, diablo 3 has been balanced around the idea of an arcade style go until you can't hack and slash. It's shallow as hell, but that's what it is.
D3's endgame is also functionally-infinite progression, so no matter how power-crept players get, Rifts will always support them getting endlessly stronger. Whereas PoE's content progression has essentially had a fixed endpoint since the Atlas was introduced.
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is lvl 4 ancestral call that crazy? the fastest way to level is still sunder
I agree with you in spirit bo1b, I don't like rampant power creep, but still, we haven't gotten patch notes yet. if they nerf GC, summoners, and sunder, I think things'll be fine (I didn't play 2nd half of abyss so dunno if meta shifted)
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On February 27 2018 04:14 EchelonTee wrote: is lvl 4 ancestral call that crazy? the fastest way to level is still sunder
I agree with you in spirit bo1b, I don't like rampant power creep, but still, we haven't gotten patch notes yet. if they nerf GC, summoners, and sunder, I think things'll be fine Sunder is definitely still the fastest, I believe in Deadanddooms racing abilities. :D
And I really don't mind that Act 1 leveling got easier with more support gems. It never was truely hard if you went Cleave, but fuck cleave.
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