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don't be a tooltip dps whore. elemental penetration is always better. as u go higher in map tiers and start alc-ing/chaos-ing maps, u get +ele resist more frequently.
these days normal and magic mobs get 1 shot irregardless of supports.
the tanky rares and bosses with their million mods will be the ones that take time to kill and penetration will work much better against their overcapped resists. just fight some breach rares with and without penetration, see for yourself how the difference is night and day.
for ignite builds dual flammability/ele weakness is a must have imo, and/or hopefully able to make use of
elemental equlibrium keystone. and even then penetration is still necessary to ensure the initial hit is strong.
(tho it can be dropped for certain bosses like shaper)
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doubleupgradeobbies!
Australia1187 Posts
On January 02 2017 14:13 Probemicro wrote:
don't be a tooltip dps whore. elemental penetration is always better. as u go higher in map tiers and start alc-ing/chaos-ing maps, u get +ele resist more frequently.
these days normal and magic mobs get 1 shot irregardless of supports.
the tanky rares and bosses with their million mods will be the ones that take time to kill and penetration will work much better against their overcapped resists. just fight some breach rares with and without penetration, see for yourself how the difference is night and day.
for ignite builds dual flammability/ele weakness is a must have imo, and/or hopefully able to make use of
elemental equlibrium keystone. and even then penetration is still necessary to ensure the initial hit is strong.
(tho it can be dropped for certain bosses like shaper)
In the build in question, he is already running significant amounts of passive fire pen. In which case penetration isn't always better. Since fire pen stacks additively with other fire pen. Whereas more damage stacks multiplicatively, with everything including already existing fire pen.
But aside from all that, this is completely a non-issue if you are going to use melee phys. If you meet a boss with maxed resists (which might be the about only situation more fire pen is going to be better for you than more damage), melee phys is the same colour as fire pen, and you just switch it in. Admittedly, conc effect is better in a single target situation than melee phys, and is a different colour to fire pen, presenting more of a problem.
On January 02 2017 06:08 -Archangel- wrote:Show nested quote +On January 02 2017 04:04 Lachrymose wrote:
With 55% pen. and Flammability then a pen. gem is significantly less damage than added fire in any reasonable situation and there's no way it's even remotely close for melee phys.
Like, the resist fire monsters have an 'allies resist elemental damage' rave party under a resistance shrine and melee phys is still better kind of not close.
Also, the ignite would take a lot of scaling to get to that point without an Emberwake. Let's say you have the Slowest Totems On Earth (this is the best case scenario for ignite as a DPS boost) and they hit twice a second each. So together they hit 16 times during the duration of an ignite, which, before scaling, is .8 extra attacks in that time frame. To be an extra totem your double dipping has to increase that 0.8 attacks to 8.0 attacks worth of damage, that's 900% increased damage. To be double damage you have to double that again. Melee phy gives 49% more damage but only for physical. It gives nothing for Anger or other sources of added fire damage. Fire Penetration gives 37% more damage based on total damage you do after all other calculations are done. Added Fire Damage gives 44% more fire damage based on your physical damage. Again, it does nothing for any sources of fire damage you will have which Fire penetration will give. All 3 supports will not double dip. Also Added Fire Damage and Melee physical will give way way less vs those crazy mobs with huge resists (elemental resist mobs on maps with fire resist mods and you can also get rares with elemental resist auras) which as you said, Fire Pen will give a lot more than just 37% more damage vs those enemies. Using Flammability just means their max resists will get reduced and then your penetration will do even more. Ok, I fracked up with double damage, but your ignite is based on damage of one totem and then again increased by all your fire, elemental, area, totem and other modifiers. It will be A LOT based on how much double dip you stacked (which I have, almost all my bonus damage is double dip) and increased burn modifiers which I also have. Only super high resist or curse immune will take lot less from ignite. It is easily worth extra totem especially since it keeps doing damage even if the original target moves away from range and you have to summon new totems so they keep hitting it.
While I don't know exactly how much double dip you've actually stacked, I would consider going over again just to check exactly how much double dip you actually have.
I am generally weary of trying to rely on ignite in weapon builds, as melee, attack, WED, penetration and burn all don't double dip. Meaning some of the otherwise most efficient support gems don't actually double dip.
It's easy to forget that ignite is very unimpressive if you don't abuse the hell out of double dip mechanics. It may be that you do actually have enough double dip to justify it, but my rule of thumb is to be very careful of making sure on weapon damage builds.
I mean, it's fairly possible you do in fact have enough double dip to justify it, in which case pardon my scepticism.
But if you are going to rely on ignite, then Conc effect is much better than both melee phys or fire pen supports when you already have so much pen.
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doubleupgradeobbies!
Australia1187 Posts
edit: derp replied to myself instead of editing
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To essentially make these ridiculously pimped out Rare gear ppl have, I (in very simple terms):
1) Find a good high level Normal 4/5/6 socketed+linked weapon/armor.
2) Use Transmutations/Alterations/Augmentations for desired stats.
3) Have your Masters do whatever to it (?)
4) Pop a Regal on the Magic weapon
5) More Masters crafting (?)
Is that about right? And lol, I used up a few Orb of Fusings to get a 6 socket I found to at least 5 linked, until I looked it up, and found the statistical % of raw Orb of Fusing for a 5 linked...... Lol. Learning a lot here.
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doubleupgradeobbies!
Australia1187 Posts
On January 02 2017 16:07 sung_moon wrote:
To essentially make these ridiculously pimped out Rare gear ppl have, I (in very simple terms):
1) Find a good high level Normal 4/5/6 socketed+linked weapon/armor.
2) Use Transmutations/Alterations/Augmentations for desired stats.
3) Have your Masters do whatever to it (?)
4) Pop a Regal on the Magic weapon
5) More Masters crafting (?)
Is that about right? And lol, I used up a few Orb of Fusings to get a 6 socket I found to at least 5 linked, until I looked it up, and found the statistical % of raw Orb of Fusing for a 5 linked...... Lol. Learning a lot here.
For genuinely mirrorworthy, or near mirrorworthy rares.
You either start crafting on a rare(very occasionally magic) item you find with relevant t1 stats already there.
More rarely, you start on a high ilvl 6L, or if you are super super rich, you just craft from high ilvl white item, and follow your steps 2-5. With exalts somewhere before and/or after step 5.
For the sake of the super duper top tier rare items, the cost of 4/5Ling is negligible compared to the cost of actual crafting. 6L is someone worth starting as a base, but starting from relevant t1 stat rolls is just as relevant. You will always only want to do this on high ilvl items with relevant bases.
For the still very expensive but not near mirror worthy range: (eg result usually costs single number of exalts). You tend to always start with a rare with alot of good rolls already.
Generally anything still good below that, go to poe.trade, it's not worth crafting. If you really hate trading, probably just chaos spam something until it's decent.
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On January 02 2017 14:13 Probemicro wrote:
don't be a tooltip dps whore. elemental penetration is always better. as u go higher in map tiers and start alc-ing/chaos-ing maps, u get +ele resist more frequently.
these days normal and magic mobs get 1 shot irregardless of supports.
the tanky rares and bosses with their million mods will be the ones that take time to kill and penetration will work much better against their overcapped resists. just fight some breach rares with and without penetration, see for yourself how the difference is night and day.
for ignite builds dual flammability/ele weakness is a must have imo, and/or hopefully able to make use of
elemental equlibrium keystone. and even then penetration is still necessary to ensure the initial hit is strong.
(tho it can be dropped for certain bosses like shaper)
So I post like a page full of long posts with math and extensive breakdowns of when and why penetration falls off compared to other damage options and you just ignore it all and repeat the same myths everyone else believes based on their feelings?
That bosses have high base resists is a myth.
That, when monsters are resist capped from mods, it's best to stack every source of penetration possible is a myth.
Nobody is saying never run any penetration. I showed that under some circumstances a reasonable amount of penetration is the best thing you can possible do. He was talking about running -136%. -136% will never be good, even if every monster had 75% fire resist at all times.
Thank God for you doubleupgradeobbies, because otherwise fucking kill me.
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On January 02 2017 17:34 Lachrymose wrote:Show nested quote +On January 02 2017 14:13 Probemicro wrote:
don't be a tooltip dps whore. elemental penetration is always better. as u go higher in map tiers and start alc-ing/chaos-ing maps, u get +ele resist more frequently.
these days normal and magic mobs get 1 shot irregardless of supports.
the tanky rares and bosses with their million mods will be the ones that take time to kill and penetration will work much better against their overcapped resists. just fight some breach rares with and without penetration, see for yourself how the difference is night and day.
for ignite builds dual flammability/ele weakness is a must have imo, and/or hopefully able to make use of
elemental equlibrium keystone. and even then penetration is still necessary to ensure the initial hit is strong.
(tho it can be dropped for certain bosses like shaper)
So I post like a page full of long posts with math and extensive breakdowns of when and why penetration falls off compared to other damage options and you just ignore it all and repeat the same myths everyone else believes based on their feelings? That bosses have high base resists is a myth. That, when monsters are resist capped from mods, it's best to stack every source of penetration possible is a myth. Nobody is saying never run any penetration. I showed that under some circumstances a reasonable amount of penetration is the best thing you can possible do. He was talking about running -136%. -136% will never be good, even if every monster had 75% fire resist at all times. Thank God for you doubleupgradeobbies, because otherwise fucking kill me.
i never said im advocating for that -136 penetration, thats too much. im just saying idiots who think penetration is bad because of diminishing returns whatever need to get back to reality.
That bosses have high base resists is a myth. wrong its not a myth
have u seen breach rares? with the right combination of mods even double ele weakness/flammability and u still do trickle bit of dmg. these are the kind of things u will see more often in general mapping, not atziri with only teeny 35% resist or whatever.
for practicaility purpose always stick to penetration. like wtf u need melee phy tooltip whoring swapping gems around nonsense when U ONESHOT EVERYTHING non high resist IRREGARDLESS OF SUPPORTS. might as well just leave the fire penetration gem there, where u meet the rare /boss u down him faster than that tooltip warrior without having to go through stupid trouble of swapping gems.
if you are talking about shaper/guardians deleting builds who dont have much base resist yes i agree, but otherwise for general mapping even if u want to stack -100 penetration or whatever its fine and dandy.
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On January 02 2017 18:20 Probemicro wrote:Show nested quote +On January 02 2017 17:34 Lachrymose wrote:On January 02 2017 14:13 Probemicro wrote:
don't be a tooltip dps whore. elemental penetration is always better. as u go higher in map tiers and start alc-ing/chaos-ing maps, u get +ele resist more frequently.
these days normal and magic mobs get 1 shot irregardless of supports.
the tanky rares and bosses with their million mods will be the ones that take time to kill and penetration will work much better against their overcapped resists. just fight some breach rares with and without penetration, see for yourself how the difference is night and day.
for ignite builds dual flammability/ele weakness is a must have imo, and/or hopefully able to make use of
elemental equlibrium keystone. and even then penetration is still necessary to ensure the initial hit is strong.
(tho it can be dropped for certain bosses like shaper)
So I post like a page full of long posts with math and extensive breakdowns of when and why penetration falls off compared to other damage options and you just ignore it all and repeat the same myths everyone else believes based on their feelings? That bosses have high base resists is a myth. That, when monsters are resist capped from mods, it's best to stack every source of penetration possible is a myth. Nobody is saying never run any penetration. I showed that under some circumstances a reasonable amount of penetration is the best thing you can possible do. He was talking about running -136%. -136% will never be good, even if every monster had 75% fire resist at all times. Thank God for you doubleupgradeobbies, because otherwise fucking kill me. i never said im advocating for that -136 penetration, thats too much. im just saying idiots who think penetration is bad because of diminishing returns whatever need to get back to reality. That bosses have high base resists is a myth. wrong its not a myth have u seen breach rares? with the right combination of mods even double ele weakness/flammability and u still do trickle bit of dmg. these are the kind of things u will see more often in general mapping, not atziri with only teeny 35% resist or whatever. for practicaility purpose always stick to penetration. like wtf u need melee phy tooltip whoring swapping gems around nonsense when U ONESHOT EVERYTHING non high resist IRREGARDLESS OF SUPPORTS. might as well just leave the fire penetration gem there, where u meet the rare /boss u down him faster than that tooltip warrior without having to go through stupid trouble of swapping gems. if you are talking about shaper/guardians deleting builds who dont have much base resist yes i agree, but otherwise for general mapping even if u want to stack -100 penetration or whatever its fine and dandy.
Everything you say is wrong. Your mindset is wrong.
Your idea that "pen is good vs bosses and melee phys is good vs trash" is wrong.
The reason your experience of doing 'trickle' damage with double resist curse exists is because you were wrong in the first place and thought double resist curse would be good for damage. Think about it. You're literally using the fact you experience poor damage with tons of -res as evidence you need even more -res. You are wrong. If you had built efficiently in the first place you wouldn't have had damage problems and you wouldn't get stuck in that loop.
You know why your dual curse seems to do trickle damage?
1. It has diminishing returns with itself to begin with, so even in best case scenario it's not that good.
2. When a strong rare (or boss with multiple map mods and its inbuilt reduced curse effectiveness) comes along with a bunch of stacked resistance buffs they can hit like 150-200% uncapped res. Curses against that do literally nothing. You reduce their uncapped res back down to 75-125% and then it gets capped to 75% like normal and you literally have not reduced 1 single point of resistance while going dual curse. THIS is why you feel like you need pen. on top of curses. You need to learn the game mechanics. Well, you don't, but you do if you want to give incinerate advice on what to do with his 150c.
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The issue isn't pen vs no pen, the issue is how much pen is reasonable considering what we lose for it aka opportunity cost that needs to be considered.
What Lachrymose is arguing is that getting to those high amounts of pen isn't as efficient as doing other things that would increase your damage. Think of it, 25% pen vs 75% res means it's an effective 100% modifier after all calculations are done. It's the exact same reason why +max res is so amazing for players. At that point any point of pen is gold.
The closer you get to zero, the closer each % point of penetration becomes closer to a 1:1 ratio as a 'more damage mod' (remember, we started out at 4:1 in the above example), the second you dip pen over 75% it becomes less than 1% more damage per point penetration. That's already past the point where we have much stronger things to increase our damage than a petty penetration gem.
In short, to delete bosses (leaving the resist map mod out of it) curses win straight up. To delete those tanky overcapped rares a reasonable amount of pen combined with "tooltip warrioring" is going to pull ahead. 'Reasonable' in this case means the 40-60% range, more than that becomes less efficient than other methods really quickly.
I can concede that for most builds "always get pen" is a good easy rule of thumb but then most builds slap in a penetration gem, get a few small tree nodes are in exactly that range I just mentioned. That's not a reason to stick to that oversimplified rule when we're talking about builds that push way deeper at 75% pen or even more.
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I wouldn't say curses win straight up vs bosses. I wouldn't say that at all. Map bosses have 60% less curse effectiveness, it's really very significant. Player curse effectiveness all comes as increased modifiers and so the boss resistance is multiplicative with it and therefore counters it, not the other way around.
As a general rule of thumb resistance curses are legitimately strong (compared to opportunity cost) under the conditions that your target has mid-to-high, but not overcapped resists and is not a boss. (And you don't have much pen.)
Penetration on the other hand is strong when your target has mid-to-high resists, even if they're overcapped and even if they're a boss.
Most situations your target is either going to have not enough resist compared to your penetration for the curse to do anything worthwhile, or your target is going to have so much elemental/curse resistance that the curse is also not going to do anything worthwhile. In between the curses are good. But it's very narrow.
As a general piece of advice I would not run a resist curse at all unless you either:
A: Really have no other curse to run at all. (For example, if you're crit. you can safely run Assassin's Mark instead without bothering to do the math because Assassin's Mark will be a million times stronger in all but the most contrived of situations.)
B: Are doing something like mines or Vaal Righteous Fire and killing with a single (hugely double-dipping) ignite. In this case I'm sure you know what you're doing and have your spreadsheets all set out and know you're getting what you pay for with Flammability.
C: You care about the freeze chance from Frostbite.
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On January 02 2017 15:20 doubleupgradeobbies! wrote:Show nested quote +On January 02 2017 06:08 -Archangel- wrote:On January 02 2017 04:04 Lachrymose wrote:
With 55% pen. and Flammability then a pen. gem is significantly less damage than added fire in any reasonable situation and there's no way it's even remotely close for melee phys.
Like, the resist fire monsters have an 'allies resist elemental damage' rave party under a resistance shrine and melee phys is still better kind of not close.
Also, the ignite would take a lot of scaling to get to that point without an Emberwake. Let's say you have the Slowest Totems On Earth (this is the best case scenario for ignite as a DPS boost) and they hit twice a second each. So together they hit 16 times during the duration of an ignite, which, before scaling, is .8 extra attacks in that time frame. To be an extra totem your double dipping has to increase that 0.8 attacks to 8.0 attacks worth of damage, that's 900% increased damage. To be double damage you have to double that again. Melee phy gives 49% more damage but only for physical. It gives nothing for Anger or other sources of added fire damage. Fire Penetration gives 37% more damage based on total damage you do after all other calculations are done. Added Fire Damage gives 44% more fire damage based on your physical damage. Again, it does nothing for any sources of fire damage you will have which Fire penetration will give. All 3 supports will not double dip. Also Added Fire Damage and Melee physical will give way way less vs those crazy mobs with huge resists (elemental resist mobs on maps with fire resist mods and you can also get rares with elemental resist auras) which as you said, Fire Pen will give a lot more than just 37% more damage vs those enemies. Using Flammability just means their max resists will get reduced and then your penetration will do even more. Ok, I fracked up with double damage, but your ignite is based on damage of one totem and then again increased by all your fire, elemental, area, totem and other modifiers. It will be A LOT based on how much double dip you stacked (which I have, almost all my bonus damage is double dip) and increased burn modifiers which I also have. Only super high resist or curse immune will take lot less from ignite. It is easily worth extra totem especially since it keeps doing damage even if the original target moves away from range and you have to summon new totems so they keep hitting it. While I don't know exactly how much double dip you've actually stacked, I would consider going over again just to check exactly how much double dip you actually have. I am generally weary of trying to rely on ignite in weapon builds, as melee, attack, WED, penetration and burn all don't double dip. Meaning some of the otherwise most efficient support gems don't actually double dip. It's easy to forget that ignite is very unimpressive if you don't abuse the hell out of double dip mechanics. It may be that you do actually have enough double dip to justify it, but my rule of thumb is to be very careful of making sure on weapon damage builds. I mean, it's fairly possible you do in fact have enough double dip to justify it, in which case pardon my scepticism. But if you are going to rely on ignite, then Conc effect is much better than both melee phys or fire pen supports when you already have so much pen.
Frack, I was sure WED also double dipped because it had elemental as part of its description but it does not 
I do use Conc Effect and on tree I only took fire, elemental, area and totem damage nodes (expect a few melee damage that were on the way to accuracy and life nodes). I was also counting on WED to also give me more double dip. No other supports give me double dip from what I can see (projectile attacks have more double dip supports).
I am only using Ngamahu Flame to delete bosses, for clearing maps I am using Xoph's Nurture which has better AoE with Rain of Arrows.
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doubleupgradeobbies!
Australia1187 Posts
On January 03 2017 00:01 -Archangel- wrote:Show nested quote +On January 02 2017 15:20 doubleupgradeobbies! wrote:On January 02 2017 06:08 -Archangel- wrote:On January 02 2017 04:04 Lachrymose wrote:
With 55% pen. and Flammability then a pen. gem is significantly less damage than added fire in any reasonable situation and there's no way it's even remotely close for melee phys.
Like, the resist fire monsters have an 'allies resist elemental damage' rave party under a resistance shrine and melee phys is still better kind of not close.
Also, the ignite would take a lot of scaling to get to that point without an Emberwake. Let's say you have the Slowest Totems On Earth (this is the best case scenario for ignite as a DPS boost) and they hit twice a second each. So together they hit 16 times during the duration of an ignite, which, before scaling, is .8 extra attacks in that time frame. To be an extra totem your double dipping has to increase that 0.8 attacks to 8.0 attacks worth of damage, that's 900% increased damage. To be double damage you have to double that again. Melee phy gives 49% more damage but only for physical. It gives nothing for Anger or other sources of added fire damage. Fire Penetration gives 37% more damage based on total damage you do after all other calculations are done. Added Fire Damage gives 44% more fire damage based on your physical damage. Again, it does nothing for any sources of fire damage you will have which Fire penetration will give. All 3 supports will not double dip. Also Added Fire Damage and Melee physical will give way way less vs those crazy mobs with huge resists (elemental resist mobs on maps with fire resist mods and you can also get rares with elemental resist auras) which as you said, Fire Pen will give a lot more than just 37% more damage vs those enemies. Using Flammability just means their max resists will get reduced and then your penetration will do even more. Ok, I fracked up with double damage, but your ignite is based on damage of one totem and then again increased by all your fire, elemental, area, totem and other modifiers. It will be A LOT based on how much double dip you stacked (which I have, almost all my bonus damage is double dip) and increased burn modifiers which I also have. Only super high resist or curse immune will take lot less from ignite. It is easily worth extra totem especially since it keeps doing damage even if the original target moves away from range and you have to summon new totems so they keep hitting it. While I don't know exactly how much double dip you've actually stacked, I would consider going over again just to check exactly how much double dip you actually have. I am generally weary of trying to rely on ignite in weapon builds, as melee, attack, WED, penetration and burn all don't double dip. Meaning some of the otherwise most efficient support gems don't actually double dip. It's easy to forget that ignite is very unimpressive if you don't abuse the hell out of double dip mechanics. It may be that you do actually have enough double dip to justify it, but my rule of thumb is to be very careful of making sure on weapon damage builds. I mean, it's fairly possible you do in fact have enough double dip to justify it, in which case pardon my scepticism. But if you are going to rely on ignite, then Conc effect is much better than both melee phys or fire pen supports when you already have so much pen. Frack, I was sure WED also double dipped because it had elemental as part of its description but it does not I do use Conc Effect and on tree I only took fire, elemental, area and totem damage nodes (expect a few melee damage that were on the way to accuracy and life nodes). I was also counting on WED to also give me more double dip. No other supports give me double dip from what I can see (projectile attacks have more double dip supports). I am only using Ngamahu Flame to delete bosses, for clearing maps I am using Xoph's Nurture which has better AoE with Rain of Arrows.
Yes sadly, weapon damage including WED won't double dip. It's one of the weaknesses of melee weapons vs ranged weapons, and applies to both poison and ignite.
But it's still worth trying to see how the ignite is. I havn't actually played any builds based on burn damage, so I have to admit I don't actually know how much double dip is 'good enough', I've just always been weary cos so there are so many fewer double dip options on melee weapon builds.
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On January 02 2017 21:08 Lachrymose wrote:
I wouldn't say curses win straight up vs bosses. I wouldn't say that at all. Map bosses have 60% less curse effectiveness, it's really very significant. Player curse effectiveness all comes as increased modifiers and so the boss resistance is multiplicative with it and therefore counters it, not the other way around.
As a general rule of thumb resistance curses are legitimately strong (compared to opportunity cost) under the conditions that your target has mid-to-high, but not overcapped resists and is not a boss. (And you don't have much pen.)
Penetration on the other hand is strong when your target has mid-to-high resists, even if they're overcapped and even if they're a boss.
Most situations your target is either going to have not enough resist compared to your penetration for the curse to do anything worthwhile, or your target is going to have so much elemental/curse resistance that the curse is also not going to do anything worthwhile. In between the curses are good. But it's very narrow.
As a general piece of advice I would not run a resist curse at all unless you either:
A: Really have no other curse to run at all. (For example, if you're crit. you can safely run Assassin's Mark instead without bothering to do the math because Assassin's Mark will be a million times stronger in all but the most contrived of situations.)
B: Are doing something like mines or Vaal Righteous Fire and killing with a single (hugely double-dipping) ignite. In this case I'm sure you know what you're doing and have your spreadsheets all set out and know you're getting what you pay for with Flammability.
C: You care about the freeze chance from Frostbite.
You're right for the most part, but despite the curse effectiveness on bosses they're still a great slot for damage.
Main reason for curses from my point of view is that their opportunity cost, especially in SC, is rather low for a lot of builds. They don't eat up links, and unless you're running Enfeeble/Temp Chains on Blasphemies (more of a general defensive thing for maps in HC rather than bosses specifically) or need Warlords's Mark they're rather close to "free" damage you can get easily. Hell, even double curse on hit isn't a crazy investment that ends up helping quite a bit vs bosses if your tree runs around up there.
When we're discussing the idea that pen up to 100% is totally amazing then to me "fuck that, get curses if you really want more damage instead and drop pen to 40-60%" is rather clear-cut, even against bosses. You just gotta remember they help jack shit against the overcapped breach rares we just talked about. =P
Also yeah, Assassin's Mark is a whole different story and should never be ignored in crit builds without REALLY good reasons.
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OK let me ask a question about a problem I have with my other character - Bladefall poison trapper.
I need a secondary trap skill to use so Bladefall does not run out of charges and it needs to work with a 4L.
This secondary skill lets me clear maps and breaches faster by letting me murder white and blue enemies without a need to use my main trap.
Just like other Bladefall trappers, my damage passive points are put into physical, chaos and trap nodes.
(why am I not using 2x Bladefall traps setups? I tried, but for some reason GGG decided that all same traps will share same cooldown even if you used two different slot setups for them LOL)
So my most logical choice for secondary skill was Ethereal Knives. EK+TrapDamage+ClusterTraps+Pierce support. It works.. sometimes. It works vs bigger packs if 50% pierce activates. Vs smaller groups of enemies traps often fire in all kind of directions and do little. With Cluster Trap support enemies need to be hit by multiple traps for poison to finish them off.
So I started looking for other options.
Bear Trap only works on single targets. I could Cluster Trap it but that would at most give me 4 hits and I don't even know if all 4 would activate.
Glacial Cascade I tried due to it having some base phy damage. It could maybe even work if it had better AoE. As it is, it fires in all kind of directions and work as bad as EK but with weaker damage.
Blade Vortex will not work due to needing multiple casts to do any kind of damage and traps only activate once.
Then I tried Desecrate since it does chaos damage and that can also poison, but its damage is really bad and it does not kill anything before it ends or enemies walk out of its area :D. And it turned out if cannot poison because it does not actually hit :D
ED cannot even work with traps... I also tried Blight but channeling skills don't work with Traps.
Ok, I looked at other physical damage sources. Since I use two Obliteration wands I tried to use Kinetic Blast. KB+TrapSupport+Additional Accuracy+Cluster Traps. This again kind of worked sometimes like EK but it wasn't reliable. Also its damage is going to be weaker due to base damage of wands not being that great.
Then I tried something crazy. Shockwave Totem+Trap support... Trap did summon a Totem, but none of the trap bonus damage boosted totem damage so its damage was pretty pathetic :D
So I decided to try something with real AoE. Also since I use Southbound gloves I need something with DoT so I can kill enemies so currently I am testing Vortex. Yea full on cold damage now, half my passives do shit for it
Vortex+Trap Support+Trap Damage+Multiple Traps. It has decent AoE, slows down enemies and can kill them, trap passives double dip for its DoT. But damage seems to be low even at tier 7 to 10 maps and traps when activated create Vortex at the trap spot which often makes it so all 3 traps don't hit same target.
I has some other ideas I didn't test like:
#1 Conversion Trap+Cluster Trap+Increased Duration+something. It would serve as a good distraction during Breaches but not be very helpful for general fast map clearing
#2 Detonate Dead Trap - could be good, but would have too many factors that need to fit for this to work reliably, also not that useful for general map clearing since new packs I run into and want to one shot with this will not have corpses near them.
I am kind of out of ideas now. I might go back to EK setup with 50% pierce, at least it one shot the Breach groups 50% of the time.
I could use ideas on what else to try to test in this 4L to get some setup that lets me one shot white groups and weaker blue groups.
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doubleupgradeobbies!
Australia1187 Posts
Honestly, this will sound counter intuitive, but the spells i will suggest you play around with, even with your build, are vortex (which you are already trying) and ice trap.
They don't really fit well into your build, but the problem is, no other physical/chaos spell has the pack clearing ability of bladefall. So you are kinda stuck with spells that don't fit into your build, but otherwise have nice properties(namely the shape/size of their aoe).
My gut feeling is that Ice trap would be the best for you. I'm guessing you need the extra traps for general clearing, and not single target, since single target is supposed to be the forte of poison bladefall traps/mines. So you are just clearing faster than your bladefall traps are recharging. In which case, you just need another trap to kill stragglers/have something to do when you wait for recharge. The beauty of ice trap is that it recharges faster than spell traps (as well as having better clearing properties than bear trap). Which means it will be alot worse than your bladefall trap but it will be up all pretty much all the time.
At the end of the day, there are actually no 'good options' for you. Having something like ice trap, cluster trap, cold pen, trap damage, will be 'OK'. Primarily it's advantage is that you won't run out very often. The other traps with Aoe or Aoeish properties like lightning trap might also be worth a try. I think recharge rate will be the best option you can get.
The other option is Binos + use your bladefall traps more sparingly. Let the prolif do all the work. But I know Binos are super overpriced this league.
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Binos is dirt cheap right now, the cheapest go for 5c. Ever since Mathil stopped playing it and showed HOWA is even better the price went down A LOT. Nothing like in older leagues where it actually stayed pricey.
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I seen Bladefall Bino's builds, there is no reason to do that build for Bladefall when two Obliteration wands give you way more damage. Only reason to use Bino with traps is if you want to focus on Bear Trap and have it affect groups but I am not playing a Bear Trap build. Ice Trap cannot really do much for me because it will not kill anyone since I use Southbound gloves (I need it for bonus life and so I can get mana from my DoTs killing enemies instead of traps)
I decided to try Fire Trap instead of Vortex trap and it is crap. Does less damage than Vortex, has smaller AoE and has no slow.
Edit: currently I am trying out two setups.
#1 Vortex+trap support+added Chaos+Trap damage support
#2 Firestorm+trap support+added Chaos+Concentrated Effect
Maybe I can get some poison and needed bonus damage with this :D
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hypothetically firetrap benefits from not having to run the trap support
in real terms welcome to powercreep where a gem that's been barely touched since closed beta is bad
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On January 04 2017 00:46 Sn0_Man wrote:
hypothetically firetrap benefits from not having to run the trap support
in real terms welcome to powercreep where a gem that's been barely touched since closed beta is bad
It still is a very decent skill though. There are much worse ones. Just recently there was that guy on Reddit who died at lvl 99 and 70% EXP or so on BHC with a Fire Trap build.
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I am an idiot, and now need to respec from CI to life-based, using a number of Orbs of Regret that makes them worthy of the name.
How are you guys doing?
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EPT
