EPTTL Chess Match 4 - Page 19
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EchelonTee
United States5256 Posts
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qrs
United States3637 Posts
On August 11 2011 05:01 Blazinghand wrote: I stopped reading at this point, because the move that you say "crushes us", to which our responses are "all terrible" transposes to + Show Spoiler [opening name] ++ Show Spoiler + That's fair. Let me rephrase, then: + Show Spoiler [3. nf3] + 3. Nf3 is called the Centre game, Kieseritsky variation. Black's best response is: 3... Nc6 This crushes us. What are our responses? All terrible. The pawn he has on d4 either wins because we take it, putting us way behind in development, or because we don't take it, giving him a lot of room.... the Scotch Game, after Black plays 3.... exd | ||
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DibujEx
Chile130 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + On August 08 2011 10:46 wizard944 wrote: I vote Nf3 + Show Spoiler + Just as with e4, I believe that our strength in this game is our numbers and we should preserve this strength by playing the most standard moves possible as to not alienate any of our own team | ||
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Blazinghand
United States25557 Posts
On August 11 2011 07:06 qrs wrote: I stopped reading at this point, because the move that you say "crushes us", to which our responses are "all terrible" transposes to + Show Spoiler [opening name] + the Scotch Game, after Black plays 3.... exd Please read my analysis, especially if I'm wrong. If it's wrong, I'd like to be corrected specifically so I can become a better player-- I put a lot of effort into writing it, and it would take only a minute or two to read. I've reproduced it below without the offending text. + Show Spoiler + That's fair. Let me rephrase, then: + Show Spoiler [3. nf3] + 3. Nf3 is called the Centre game, Kieseritsky variation. I think Black's best response is: 3... Nc6 I'm having trouble finding good play from white at this point. What do we do? The pawn he has on d4 either wins because we take it, putting us way behind in development, or because we don't take it, giving him a lot of room. Here are my thoughts regarding possible white moves. I think these are our only options... but if there are more, please let me know. 4. Nxd4 Bc5 now we're in danger towne. We need to guard, flee or exchange our knight. If we play 5. Nxc6, though, the response 5....Qf6 is very, very dangerous for us. If we flee the knight to f5, f3,or b5 we lose a tempo so black gains ANOTHER developed piece on top of it. If we guard the knight with a bishop or pawn we pin more of our own pieces and Qf6 remains an everpresent danger. This is a bad position to get into, and not worth earning back the pawn. So, we must not retake the pawn. Instead, we play 4. Bc4 and this looks pretty normal. Given a standard black response of 4 ... Nf6 we begin to see white's trouble. We've lost a lot of space to black's pawn on the d file, and by not taking it, we're incredibly compressed. It's almost impossible to defend our e-pawn, and we will eventually lose the center, which is very unfortunate given that this is the Centre game. 4. Bc3 suffers similar problems, but it delays them with the bishop guard on the knight. Qf6 and his bishop still threaten the kingside, so we can't take his pawn, and as long as that pawn is out we will have no room to develop. Because our knight developed late, we couldn't control the dark-colored squares, and that 5th rank pawn is the death of us, one way or the other. I'm a little busy but I'll address 3. f4 later tonight. | ||
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Malli
Germany138 Posts
2. Nf3 is the move! | ||
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Raysalis
Malaysia1034 Posts
On August 11 2011 07:30 Blazinghand wrote: Please read my analysis, especially if I'm wrong. If it's wrong, I'd like to be corrected specifically so I can become a better player-- I put a lot of effort into writing it, and it would take only a minute or two to read. I've reproduced it below without the offending text. + Show Spoiler + That's fair. Let me rephrase, then: + Show Spoiler [3. nf3] + 3. Nf3 is called the Centre game, Kieseritsky variation. I think Black's best response is: 3... Nc6 I'm having trouble finding good play from white at this point. What do we do? The pawn he has on d4 either wins because we take it, putting us way behind in development, or because we don't take it, giving him a lot of room. Here are my thoughts regarding possible white moves. I think these are our only options... but if there are more, please let me know. 4. Nxd4 Bc5 now we're in danger towne. We need to guard, flee or exchange our knight. If we play 5. Nxc6, though, the response 5....Qf6 is very, very dangerous for us. If we flee the knight to f5, f3,or b5 we lose a tempo so black gains ANOTHER developed piece on top of it. If we guard the knight with a bishop or pawn we pin more of our own pieces and Qf6 remains an everpresent danger. This is a bad position to get into, and not worth earning back the pawn. So, we must not retake the pawn. Instead, we play 4. Bc4 and this looks pretty normal. Given a standard black response of 4 ... Nf6 we begin to see white's trouble. We've lost a lot of space to black's pawn on the d file, and by not taking it, we're incredibly compressed. It's almost impossible to defend our e-pawn, and we will eventually lose the center, which is very unfortunate given that this is the Centre game. 4. Bc3 suffers similar problems, but it delays them with the bishop guard on the knight. Qf6 and his bishop still threaten the kingside, so we can't take his pawn, and as long as that pawn is out we will have no room to develop. Because our knight developed late, we couldn't control the dark-colored squares, and that 5th rank pawn is the death of us, one way or the other. I'm a little busy but I'll address 3. f4 later tonight. + Show Spoiler + If you think that the scotch puts white in danger town i cant imagine what you will think of the kings gambit  .To address your moves: 4) Nxd4 Bc5 (This is the classical variation of the scotch.) 5) Be3 (guarding the knight on d4 and developing, also guards the f2 pawn) 5) ... Qf6 (attack the knight on d4 6) c3 (guard the knight on d4 again 6) ... Nge7 7) Bc4 (now white is safe to castle and we have a normal game) Your line of 5) Nxc6 Qf6, white can meet the threat of Qxf2 by playing 6)Qf3. Possible line is 6)... Qxf3 7)gxf3 dxc6 and the position is probably quite level, white has the centre and the pawn structure is probably also better for the endgame. 4) Bc4 Nf6 (This line is sharper and white does loss the e pawn but its only temporary) 5) O-O (white is not afraid of losing the e pawn as this open the e file and is dangerous for the black king) 5) ... Nxe4 6) Re1 (bring the rook to the open file and pin the knight) 6) ... d5 (defending the knight 7) Bxd5! Qxd5 8) Nc3! (a tactical trick that crop up in many openings. Now black king is the one in danger and white can easily win the pawn back or gain good compensation) 4)Bc3 this move is not legal. Did you make a typo? cant tell what move you were referring to from your explanation | ||
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Rybka
United States836 Posts
All of this bickering and peen flexing is pointless - so stop it. It's killing the vibe. | ||
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qrs
United States3637 Posts
On August 11 2011 07:30 Blazinghand wrote: OK, I've read it all now. My objection wasn't that you came to a different conclusion from Kasparov; heck if it comes to that, I'll play our moves over the book any day, correct or not. I didn't sign up to copy moves from the textbook without understanding them. As I said, my only objection was to your representing your analysis as definitive, when it couldn't have been.Please read my analysis, especially if I'm wrong. If it's wrong, I'd like to be corrected specifically so I can become a better player-- I put a lot of effort into writing it, and it would take only a minute or two to read. I've reproduced it below without the offending text. + Show Spoiler + That's fair. Let me rephrase, then: + Show Spoiler [3. nf3] + 3. Nf3 is called the Centre game, Kieseritsky variation. I think Black's best response is: 3... Nc6 I'm having trouble finding good play from white at this point. What do we do? The pawn he has on d4 either wins because we take it, putting us way behind in development, or because we don't take it, giving him a lot of room. Here are my thoughts regarding possible white moves. I think these are our only options... but if there are more, please let me know. 4. Nxd4 Bc5 now we're in danger towne. We need to guard, flee or exchange our knight. If we play 5. Nxc6, though, the response 5....Qf6 is very, very dangerous for us. If we flee the knight to f5, f3,or b5 we lose a tempo so black gains ANOTHER developed piece on top of it. If we guard the knight with a bishop or pawn we pin more of our own pieces and Qf6 remains an everpresent danger. This is a bad position to get into, and not worth earning back the pawn. So, we must not retake the pawn. Instead, we play 4. Bc4 and this looks pretty normal. Given a standard black response of 4 ... Nf6 we begin to see white's trouble. We've lost a lot of space to black's pawn on the d file, and by not taking it, we're incredibly compressed. It's almost impossible to defend our e-pawn, and we will eventually lose the center, which is very unfortunate given that this is the Centre game. 4. Bc3 suffers similar problems, but it delays them with the bishop guard on the knight. Qf6 and his bishop still threaten the kingside, so we can't take his pawn, and as long as that pawn is out we will have no room to develop. Because our knight developed late, we couldn't control the dark-colored squares, and that 5th rank pawn is the death of us, one way or the other. I'm a little busy but I'll address 3. f4 later tonight. Raysalis has already given an excellent response to your post, so there's nothing for me to say there. On August 11 2011 10:10 Rybka wrote: I don't know whom you're addressing, but I haven't seen any of that stuff. Maybe you're projecting it?All of this bickering and peen flexing is pointless - so stop it. It's killing the vibe. | ||
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Blazinghand
United States25557 Posts
On August 11 2011 10:36 qrs wrote: I don't know whom you're addressing, but I haven't seen any of that stuff. Maybe you're projecting it? I agree with qrs here. I think that this discussion has been informative, fun, and educational (at least for me). I haven't seen any bickering and peen flexing-- and everything has had a point, and has made the vibe better. qrs had some valid points about my presentation, and I amended it immediately. He then went on to read my points, and reference me to another poster who had adequately addressed my concerns regarding the proposed move. Everything so far has been excellent, and I see no reason to change the format or content of our discussion moving forward. | ||
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keyStorm
Canada316 Posts
2. Nf3 | ||
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GnarKill
Canada68 Posts
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Ng5
702 Posts
Okay, guys. Playtime is over - let me have a few minutes making my stats, posting and answering things. I will also post my next move within 24 hours, so stay tuned! | ||
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qrs
United States3637 Posts
Final Vote count Nf3: 46 (Cloud9157, Ikari, Raysalis, Soluhwin, Bengui, XXGeneration, Varpulis, f4: 24 (Blazinghand, Malinor, qrs, PtM, Bourne, jdseemoreglass, Rybka, gogogadgetflow, Jumbled, imBLIND, mastergriggy, enigmaticcam, durza, noclaninator, tyr, shackes, aphorism, indigoawareness, mcc, Babyfactory, KingStuart, slakkoo, Miles_Edgeworth, Snarfs) Nc3: 1 (Epithet) d4: 2 (BaronFel, ParanoiaHoT) Qh5: 1 (timh) Bc4: 1 (zasta) Nothing surprising in our first two moves so far: we've chosen the most popular opening moves by pretty wide margins, which is what I'd expect in a game played by such a large team. The only things that surprised me even a bit about this vote were how strong a showing the King's Gambit made and that annul voted for a serious move. ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/oEs8u.png) | ||
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Ng5
702 Posts
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/dd6xZ.png) I will post some more data about the first two votes later, and from move three I have a set amount of goodies I'm gonna post when a move is decided. I don't want to make it too flashy - I want it to be pure, practical but also cover some fun stats for people to look at. | ||
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Sandster
United States4054 Posts
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Ng5
702 Posts
Rybka wrote: I want to emphasize to this group that any opening is more or less safe in correspondence games like this one. This is correspondence chess, not blitz in the park. No matter what choice we make, we will not be down material in the next 7-8 moves unless we choose to be (a.k.a. gambit a pawn). at the very very worst black might be ever so slightly better. All of this bickering and peen flexing is pointless - so stop it. It's killing the vibe. I would like to address this, because I think it is very important. You can't argue that an opening would be bad this early, unless you are saccing a minor piece for nothing or getting mated in five. Yes you can score a 10 move win against a 2000-2100 rated player even in correspondence (did so several times, myself). But there you can have a reason like... Don't take back with the c-pawn or you're losing the bishop on g4, tardface! If you can't bring any real reason, or maybe your only reason is because your computer says you are fucked in that particular opening - your engine is wrong. Engines suck - get over it. They can't analyze endgames proper enough and they misevaluate openings. Why do you think they need an opening book attached? There are countless openings where engines give huge advantages to one side for ten-fifteen moves only to realize it's completely drawn or flat out winning for the other side within the course of one more move. Just because engines are getting better and better at certain midgame positions it doesn't matter they are good all around. Forget that. So please, if you want to argue, do it like... I don't really like this position, because I feel uncomfortable playing from it because xyz. But not with... I hate it because it sucks we shouldn't play it. That's what engine mongers do. If the shoe doesn't fit, please don't wear it and keep this the awesome community event it started out to be. Note that no, I haven't read the spoilers, no I haven't asked my friends to read it for me. But I'm not green. I know how these things go - both psychologically and chess-wise. Keep up with the fun arguments, but don't just bash random things. This makes me want to write a blog about it damnit, and I hate and despise those. See what you are doing?!? On the side - I do like and appreciate trash-talk. I don't want this message to kill off any possible bashing coming my, or your way. So if you are doing it all good and the right way I'm all for it. But please, do not do it in bad blood. We're supposed to be a groving micro-community within tens - if not hundreds - of thousands of people, all with different values, background and thinking. Keep it nice. | ||
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Ng5
702 Posts
Sandster wrote: lol I like the single vote for Qh5. Hey it gave Naka a four move victory against Carlsen in a blitz game...  | ||
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Bill Murray
United States9292 Posts
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Ng5
702 Posts
You guys will have a whole weekend on this important move. | ||
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Bill Murray
United States9292 Posts
You're 1 person. You can make a quick decision. We have a lot to vote on, and you updating it quickly is more advantageous to us as a group because people would have more time to be able to come and collectively cast. | ||
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