EPTUltra Street Fighter IV - Page 315
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Cel.erity
United States4890 Posts
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Duka08
3391 Posts
On July 09 2013 02:15 Excalibur_Z wrote: It's a rare condition, "this day and age", to read any good news on the newspaper page. Pad players say they have it harder in general I think, but for every crying pad player there's a pad superstar. Well then there must be some magic clue inside these tearful walls, 'cause all I see is a tower of dreams, real love burstin out of every seam. + Show Spoiler + Too many Urkels on your team, that's why your wins low Oh my.... LOL well played [Also as a note, I play stick. I just have no negative opinion about pad players, at least when it comes to being competitive.] @Cel.erity; I can see that, but that also would apply more to people going back and forth between pad/stick, or going from stick to pad (which hardly anyone will ever do). If you never used a keyboard in your life, and you learned to type upside-down, you'll never know the difference! I definitely do think stick has slight overall advantages, especially in learning, but I don't think top pad players are at a competitive disadvantage. If that even makes sense.... >_> | ||
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Cel.erity
United States4890 Posts
On July 09 2013 03:02 Duka08 wrote: Oh my.... LOL well played [Also as a note, I play stick. I just have no negative opinion about pad players, at least when it comes to being competitive.] @Cel.erity; I can see that, but that also would apply more to people going back and forth between pad/stick, or going from stick to pad (which hardly anyone will ever do). If you never used a keyboard in your life, and you learned to type upside-down, you'll never know the difference! I definitely do think stick has slight overall advantages, especially in learning, but I don't think top pad players are at a competitive disadvantage. If that even makes sense.... >_> Well...I had to go from stick to pad because of my carpal tunnel. At the same time, I've been using a pad since I was 5 on my NES, and I played fighting games at home on a pad for years. One would think it wouldn't be a difficult transition, but it was. Timing is harder, hitting diagonals is harder, multi-button inputs are harder. Nothing about it is easier. Even after months of not touching a stick, I can go back to stick for 5 minutes and my execution is immediately improved. It's not really a matter of being used to one or the other, there are inherent disadvantages. But yeah, like I said, once you're perfect on pad there's nothing to worry about. It just takes much, much longer to achieve that compared to any other input method. | ||
FakeSteve[TPR]
Valhalla18444 Posts
I'm actually really comfortable against Bison with Sakura, even though it's a losing matchup for her. This is centered around three key things: 1. Every headstomp will be punished by either walking backwards out of its range -> punish, or by air-to-air stuffing it with j.mp 2. I found setups that stuff EX Psycho Crusher in its startup (After the invincibility is gone) and lead to a full tatsu loop 3. I found normals that will reliably stuff lk scissors if done raw (far s.mp buffered into mp shouken which leads to that anti-EX Psycho setup) The rest of it is just footsies and patience - Bison is a fucking bully, but he has almost no ability to come back from a life deficit because he hits like a girl. Universal wisdom is to rush his shit down when he has no meter, which means finding a way you're comfortable with dealing with his s.mk and s.rh. When you hit him, make it fucking count, and don't stress yourself trying to OS his wakeup - he has many options that require different OSes, so do it based on a read or if you detect a pattern in the Bison's defense. MAKE SURE YOUR ANTI-AIRS ARE ON POINT. YOU MUST NOT GIVE BISON ANY 'FREE DAMAGE'. Free damage is basically combos off jump-ins you didn't anti-air, punishes on your whiffed or blocked reversals and normals, etc. Play solid as fuck and don't take unnecessary risks vs this character, unless the damage differential is heavily in your favor (as in if what you wanna do works, you'd hit him for 3-400 at the risk of maybe just an anti-air) Let me know who you use and I'll go into some character specific things you can do against him. If you play any character with an air throw you should know that air throws push his shit in, he's got a floaty jump and you can almost always air throw a headstomp (even EX) on reaction. | ||
Excalibur_Z
United States12240 Posts
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pachi
Melbourne5338 Posts
On July 09 2013 04:11 Excalibur_Z wrote: My main problem is I'm too obsessive about antiairs, so I even try to crouching fierce his EX headstomp. It's doable and can beat it clean, but it's like a 1f window (and probably distance specific too) and if you miss, you eat a ton of counterhit damage. You should worry more about finishing your combos and being less reliant on mk  | ||
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Pwere
Canada1557 Posts
On July 09 2013 03:12 Cel.erity wrote: I have the opposite scenario. I switched from pad to Stick with Super, and while hitting 2f links is easier, directional inputs are much, much harder. Dashing is really hard. After 6 months, I happened to play on pad, and I instantly could pull everything off, except for tight combos since the timing is simply different.Well...I had to go from stick to pad because of my carpal tunnel. At the same time, I've been using a pad since I was 5 on my NES, and I played fighting games at home on a pad for years. One would think it wouldn't be a difficult transition, but it was. Timing is harder, hitting diagonals is harder, multi-button inputs are harder. Nothing about it is easier. Even after months of not touching a stick, I can go back to stick for 5 minutes and my execution is immediately improved. But yeah, like I said, once you're perfect on pad there's nothing to worry about. It just takes much, much longer to achieve that compared to any other input method. On the other hand, I've never played umvc on pad and I simply don't know what to do. But I played SF2 on SNES, and then alpha/3rd strike on PS, so a pad is what's natural. If I went back to playing regularly, I'd probably give the hitbox a try. Best of both worlds, imo; basically a high quality keyboard with a nice layout. | ||
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Excalibur_Z
United States12240 Posts
On July 09 2013 04:13 pachi wrote: You should worry more about finishing your combos and being less reliant on mk And you should play on a cabinet that's less prone to crashing on character select :> | ||
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Duka08
3391 Posts
On July 09 2013 04:19 Pwere wrote: I have the opposite scenario. I switched from pad to Stick with Super, and while hitting 2f links is easier, directional inputs are much, much harder. Dashing is really hard. After 6 months, I happened to play on pad, and I instantly could pull everything, except for tight combos since the timing is simply different. On the other hand, I've never played umvc on pad and I simply don't know what to do. But I played SF2 on SNES, and then alpha/3rd strike on PS, so a pad is what's natural. If I went back to playing regularly, I'd probably give the hitbox a try. Best of both worlds, imo; basically a high quality keyboard with a nice layout. Which pad did you use and more importantly, a d-pad or analog stick? Just kind of curious. I started out with UMVC3 on pad and got used to it, initially D-pad but realized it was very unreliable (360) and had erroneous inputs, so switched to the analog thumbstick. I switched to fight stick for AE and didn't touch marvel for a while, but after I came back to marvel using the stick was more comfortable than pad simply because I had been using it for a while. The muscle memory of combos took a while to re-practice, but input feel and button access were more ingrained from using the stick more beforehand. Interesting to hear about the vast differences in experiences! | ||
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Pwere
Canada1557 Posts
As for umvc, I think you simply need the face buttons to do the quick chains. How do you comfortably do LMH on pad? And more importantly, where's the fun in mashing on a pad? | ||
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Monsen
Germany2548 Posts
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Duka08
3391 Posts
On July 09 2013 04:35 Pwere wrote: My favorite has always been the SNES d-pad, but the one on Xbox is terrible. As for umvc, I think you simply need the face buttons to do the quick chains. How do you comfortably do LMH on pad? And more importantly, where's the fun in mashing on a pad? UMVC was quite easy with a controller, using the 4 face buttons for LMHS and 2 triggers for assists. If you're creative (and depending on how you feel about the subject) you can also bind things like the infamous one button dash to the other triggers! | ||
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Noocta
France12578 Posts
I'm still hovering between 1k5 and 2k PP in ranked, but I'm beating players that were humiliating me not a month ago. I'm feeling great. Realizing you"re getting better is really satisfying. I really need a practice partner who plays Akuma tho lol. | ||
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Cel.erity
United States4890 Posts
On July 09 2013 04:35 Pwere wrote: My favorite has always been the SNES d-pad, but the one on Xbox is terrible. As for umvc, I think you simply need the face buttons to do the quick chains. How do you comfortably do LMH on pad? And more importantly, where's the fun in mashing on a pad? Wait what, why would you need a stick to do Marvel combos? Marvel combos are not particularly fast or difficult in terms of button presses. LMH is just uh...Square X Circle for me on PS2 pad, where's the issue? Timing is the main thing which poses a problem for me, because I can't hear the button presses and I can't get a rhythm. On July 09 2013 04:19 Pwere wrote:I have the opposite scenario. I switched from pad to Stick with Super, and while hitting 2f links is easier, directional inputs are much, much harder. Dashing is really hard. After 6 months, I happened to play on pad, and I instantly could pull everything off, except for tight combos since the timing is simply different.. Dashing I can see being difficult at first, but that's pretty minor once you get used to it. The problem is for certain games where you need to hit a diagonal input perfectly without overshooting, pad is really bad at that. It also tends to skip diagonal inputs sometimes. Sticks have gates so you can just slam your hand to Up-Forward or whatever and know it's going to be clean. | ||
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Pwere
Canada1557 Posts
I really didn't give the pad much of a chance in UMvC, but why bother when the stick works just fine? Dash with face buttons ftw. | ||
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FakeSteve[TPR]
Valhalla18444 Posts
i actually think pad is superior for umvc, just because the game isnt too tough executionally and you can wavedash more effectily on pad with the trigger button dash and the dpad. really small difference in the end but its just way harder to wavedash like that on stick soul calibur is apparently dominated by pad though lol | ||
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Excalibur_Z
United States12240 Posts
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sung_moon
United States10110 Posts
I go claw style on Tekken too. | ||
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YulyaVolkova
United Kingdom95 Posts
My main for the past 2 years has been Viper which I definitely know the most about the matchup with. Stuff like jab tk beating stand roundhouse + often trading/sometimes beating short scissors, reversal strong tk point blank EX psycho, reversal EX seismo point blank fierce psycho etc. Also some weird stuff like if the Bison short scissors->short scissors alot you can just start throwing out raw FFFs after a blocked scissors and counterhit the next one, obviously loses vs many other options though. At the moment im mainly trying to learn Evil Ryu, probably intending to make him my new main so hes probably the character id like the most help with if you could, I understand you played him a bit recently? You mentioning Sakuras st.mp->shoryu as a scissors beating option makes me think that theres a reasonable chance E.Ryu has the exact same option, ill test it out later. I guess the main thing I don't get overall is the idea of attempting to stop the Bison from doing several things at once while im also trying to do things actively. I don't know if its normal but I find it really, really difficult to react do anything where im watching for more than one possible thing. Ive played reaction based games all my life but its always the case that you're just watching for one thing at once, and have something you're going to do if it happens. In Street Fighter, say slightly outside of footsie range, Bison can jump, headstomp, or move about on the ground say (in several ways), all of which theoretically I should be countering with my own options, but I just can't. I find it really really hard to even say watch for headstomp AND jump, differentiate between the two, and apply the punishes correctly in time before ive already been forced to block. Nevermind adding in the fact that I should be focussing heavily on the ground game in order to out footsie/pressure only to then switch to these punish options at the random moment they may occur. Think that may have actually twigged in my head potentially the primary cause of the issues, but have no idea how to solve it. The idea that I have trouble vs characters that have lots of options that are unpunishable on block, and must be punished on startup essentially either pre-emptively or on reaction. This may explain why I feel like I get in these endless pressure loops unless I choose the one correct option - I just don't know how to be attempting to counter several of these things at once. Any ideas? Perhaps something like passively countering as many of them as possible while watching for one specifically? Like the st.mp just being done passively countering scissors while also not being out there long on whiff and possibly allowing a react headstomp punish if you're watching for it. If I could train myself to quickly differentiate between jump and headstomp I could add that in as a third option I could beat. How do you approach it? | ||
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diehilde
Germany1596 Posts
On July 09 2013 18:20 YulyaVolkova wrote: Thanks alot Steve. My main for the past 2 years has been Viper which I definitely know the most about the matchup with. Stuff like jab tk beating stand roundhouse + often trading/sometimes beating short scissors, reversal strong tk point blank EX psycho, reversal EX seismo point blank fierce psycho etc. Also some weird stuff like if the Bison short scissors->short scissors alot you can just start throwing out raw FFFs after a blocked scissors and counterhit the next one, obviously loses vs many other options though. At the moment im mainly trying to learn Evil Ryu, probably intending to make him my new main so hes probably the character id like the most help with if you could, I understand you played him a bit recently? You mentioning Sakuras st.mp->shoryu as a scissors beating option makes me think that theres a reasonable chance E.Ryu has the exact same option, ill test it out later. I guess the main thing I don't get overall is the idea of attempting to stop the Bison from doing several things at once while im also trying to do things actively. I don't know if its normal but I find it really, really difficult to react do anything where im watching for more than one possible thing. Ive played reaction based games all my life but its always the case that you're just watching for one thing at once, and have something you're going to do if it happens. In Street Fighter, say slightly outside of footsie range, Bison can jump, headstomp, or move about on the ground say (in several ways), all of which theoretically I should be countering with my own options, but I just can't. I find it really really hard to even say watch for headstomp AND jump, differentiate between the two, and apply the punishes correctly in time before ive already been forced to block. Nevermind adding in the fact that I should be focussing heavily on the ground game in order to out footsie/pressure only to then switch to these punish options at the random moment they may occur. Think that may have actually twigged in my head potentially the primary cause of the issues, but have no idea how to solve it. The idea that I have trouble vs characters that have lots of options that are unpunishable on block, and must be punished on startup essentially either pre-emptively or on reaction. This may explain why I feel like I get in these endless pressure loops unless I choose the one correct option - I just don't know how to be attempting to counter several of these things at once. Any ideas? Perhaps something like passively countering as many of them as possible while watching for one specifically? Like the st.mp just being done passively countering scissors while also not being out there long on whiff and possibly allowing a react headstomp punish if you're watching for it. If I could train myself to quickly differentiate between jump and headstomp I could add that in as a third option I could beat. How do you approach it? Well I guess part of your problems come from having mained viper. Bison is definitely one of the hardest matchups for viper. You cant play footsies against bison with viper like ever... Once you get into range of lk.scissors or even cr.lk your best bet ist to hold down back and wait for the right moment to gtfo. Viper basically has to rely on zoning bison all day, except you get a knockdown ofc. And Bison has a huge variety of escape options on wakeup, so even when you get that knockdown its not as good as against other chars. Its a pretty shitty mu tbh. | ||
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