EPTUltra Street Fighter IV - Page 292
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Cel.erity
United States4890 Posts
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Duka08
3391 Posts
I love you Justin but this is why it's hard to do tier lists unless you look at the whole cast at once lol. | ||
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AnomalySC2
United States2073 Posts
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WindWolf
Sweden11767 Posts
What is a good format for an 8-player tournament in SF? I'm wondering because the way the Swedish E-Sports Championship works, there is 8 open qualifier tournaments (group play into double elimination) and the winner of each of those play a Grand Final tounament @DH summer. But IMO that doesn't work out when there is only 8 players. | ||
Excalibur_Z
United States12240 Posts
On May 02 2013 01:25 WindWolf wrote: I have an unrelated question. What is a good format for an 8-player tournament in SF? I'm wondering because the way the Swedish E-Sports Championship works, there is 8 open qualifier tournaments (group play into double elimination) and the winner of each of those play a Grand Final tounament @DH summer. But IMO that doesn't work out when there is only 8 players. Depends how long you want the tournament to last. If you want it to be short, you just randomly seed players into a double elimination bracket. If you want it to be long, you'd have everyone play round robin against everyone else, record the points (wins over losses), and seed them based on points (#1 vs. #8, #2 vs. #7 on the opposite end of the bracket, etc.) into a double elimination bracket. | ||
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WindWolf
Sweden11767 Posts
On May 02 2013 01:31 Excalibur_Z wrote: Depends how long you want the tournament to last. If you want it to be short, you just randomly seed players into a double elimination bracket. If you want it to be long, you'd have everyone play round robin against everyone else, record the points (wins over losses), and seed them based on points (#1 vs. #8, #2 vs. #7 on the opposite end of the bracket, etc.) into a double elimination bracket. This year, they've said that each tournament should be able to take place over one day. But if anyone in the tournament doesn't play in the DH main tournament, I guess that full round robin > double elimination could work out. Straight double elimination could also work as well. (Just to be clear, I'm not involved in the Swedish E-Sports Championships, I just watch it) | ||
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Noocta
France12578 Posts
I prefer match up tiers list but since it takes much more time to create one, I can understands the format. | ||
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aseq
Netherlands3994 Posts
Justin putting everyone relatively high in the tier list means to me that the game is relatively balanced. If he can beat Air's A+ Ryu with his C Dan, that's not so surprising. | ||
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Wangsta
United States776 Posts
On May 02 2013 00:23 ain wrote: His opinion isn't valid. That tier list is full of shit. S tier stands for huge advantages that are very hard to overcome. 2012 Akuma would fit this description, as would vanilla Sagat or AE Yun. Those characters had something that made them broken. The others in Wong's list dont qualify for this description. They're just good rushdown characters. A tier stands for top tier. Gouken, Dhalsim, Juri, Oni, Abel, Gen, Makoto and Dictator are not even close to A-tier. Gouken, Dhalsim and Oni are low tier. The others belong in B tier. B tier stands for good basics but some crucial shortcomings that prevent competing against top tier. Dudley in B tier is ludicrous. He's one of the worst characters in the game. The only characters he got right imo are Ken and Dan. Seth qualifies as S tier in my opinion. So does viper, his list is mostly fine. Sakura is debatable due to her weak wakeup. Her offense is also limited to footsies, counterhit, and knockdown setups. High damage is nice but command grabs, vortexes and dive kicks are nicer Ken and chun li are too low. Juri and sim are too high | ||
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Duka08
3391 Posts
On May 02 2013 03:38 aseq wrote: Are there definitions for what the tiers are 'supposed' to be? Since A+, B- don't really mean much to me, it's just a relative order. Justin putting everyone relatively high in the tier list means to me that the game is relatively balanced. If he can beat Air's A+ Ryu with his C Dan, that's not so surprising. This is how I'm treating it as well. It's a relative thing, rather than grading them on a strict, rigid scale. That's why I think it's going to be tough to do this way if you don't do the entire cast at once hehe. As a relative list, if you ignore the letters, it's much less ridiculous than people are making it.... | ||
CosmicSpiral
United States15275 Posts
On May 02 2013 00:23 ain wrote: His opinion isn't valid. That tier list is full of shit. S tier stands for huge advantages that are very hard to overcome. 2012 Akuma would fit this description, as would vanilla Sagat or AE Yun. Those characters had something that made them broken. The others in Wong's list dont qualify for this description. They're just good rushdown characters. A tier stands for top tier. Gouken, Dhalsim, Juri, Oni, Abel, Gen, Makoto and Dictator are not even close to A-tier. Gouken, Dhalsim and Oni are low tier. The others belong in B tier. B tier stands for good basics but some crucial shortcomings that prevent competing against top tier. Dudley in B tier is ludicrous. He's one of the worst characters in the game. The only characters he got right imo are Ken and Dan. Comparing AE 2012 Akuma to Vanilla Sagat and AE Yun is just cute. He's not nearly as brain-dead or skewed in risk/reward ratio. On May 02 2013 00:00 aseq wrote: Yeah I agree, seems odd she's ranked higher than Dhalsim and Ken. But I don't think he's that far off, he's giving relatively high marks for all the characters (btw, can't we just change to a 0-100 scale, this S-+ stuff is silly), and Juri has some unfulfilled potential (not getting picked up by a true top player, like Gen by Xian for example). I also think Abel is a bit highly-rated (Juicebox fighting!). Abel's problem is that for all his good qualities, his weaknesses regularly get exposed by the top-tier characters. It's like how Honda looks great if you only judge him by how he performs against everyone below him. On May 02 2013 03:54 Wangsta wrote: Seth qualifies as S tier in my opinion. So does viper, his list is mostly fine. Sakura is debatable due to her weak wakeup. Her offense is also limited to footsies, counterhit, and knockdown setups. High damage is nice but command grabs, vortexes and dive kicks are nicer Ken and chun li are too low. Juri and sim are too high Seth is probably the weakest S tier in the game. His footsies potential is trash and his keepaway game is mediocre. He only looks terrifying once he gets you on your back. | ||
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ain
Germany786 Posts
A-tier is usually synonymous to 'good all around', B-tier to 'average', C-tier to 'lacking in one way or another' and so forth. I agree that Justin's list would be slightly less silly if every character was downgraded by one tier. He's making a lot of ridiculous statements though, such as placing Oni, Gouken, Dhalsim, Makoto, Abel and Juri so high. Don't get me wrong, I think most of these are good characters, but in an environment where they have to compete with vortex characters sporting invulnerable, FADCable DPs, they are nowhere near top tier. This is what I think it should look like: S: Akuma A: Adon, Cammy, C. Viper, Fei Long, Sakura, Seth, maybe Yun B: Everyone else C: Dan, Dudley, Gouken, T.Hawk, Yang It doesn't really make sense to divide the cast into more groups as the game has such a balanced middle field. You could argue forever whether Dee Jay is really the same tier as Ken. They both have strong and weak matchups and thats exactly what defines a mid-tier character. e: On May 02 2013 05:15 CosmicSpiral wrote: Comparing AE 2012 Akuma to Vanilla Sagat and AE Yun is just cute. He's not nearly as brain-dead or skewed in risk/reward ratio. I disagree. The amount of guaranteed pressure he can get on anyone in the cast is unparalleled. Maybe Cammy comes close, but she has to pay for it in other areas. If you let him jump and throw a fireball at best you will be pushed into the corner. You can't try to contest his air fireballs because Akuma is the one who controls the spacing in every matchup. Trying to hit him out of air fireball is very risky. I suppose his advantages aren't as obvious as Sagats 600 damage ultra combos or Yuns insane frame advantage, but they are there and Infiltration is showing time and time again how to abuse them. He barely even does the vortex anymore. Most of the time you see him zoning and looking for an opportunity to make you block air fireballs. If he doesn't land the following mixup he can just go back and start from scratch ad infinitum. | ||
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CosmicSpiral
United States15275 Posts
On May 02 2013 05:27 ain wrote: I disagree. The amount of guaranteed pressure he can get on anyone in the cast is unparalleled. Maybe Cammy comes close, but she has to pay for it in other areas. If you let him jump and throw a fireball at best you will be pushed into the corner. You can't try to contest his air fireballs because Akuma is the one who controls the spacing in every matchup. Trying to hit him out of air fireball is very risky. I suppose his advantages aren't as obvious as Sagats 600 damage ultra combos or Yuns insane frame advantage, but they are there and Infiltration is showing time and time again how to abuse them. He barely even does the vortex anymore. Most of the time you see him zoning and looking for an opportunity to make you block air fireballs. If he doesn't land the following mixup he can just go back and start from scratch ad infinitum. I disagree that he gets guaranteed pressure on anyone in the cast. His air fireball spacing is character-dependent. He has the liberty of tossing them out against Gen because Gen has very limited options to deal with them. Gen has to rely on super, ultra, focus, and sweep if he is very close. This also applies to some other characters like Zangief. Meanwhile other characters in the cast don't have that problem. He can't throw air fireballs liberally against Cammy; Adon has a million and one ways to punish its recovery; Fei can focus-forward dash to get within range or use anti-air rekkas; Viper doesn't really care; Juri doesn't really care as she can absorb them with Senpusha or counter. Even Ryu is not overly concerned with air fireball as long as it's not EX Air Fireball in the corner. Infiltration is using air fireballs to make people impatient. Most of the time it works. | ||
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AnomalySC2
United States2073 Posts
When you see other people go for wild uppercuts that fail miserably and get punished by full combos, the mistakes are very obvious. You never see stuff like that from Infiltration because his execution is so insane he can immediately fadc a failed risk to make it safe. It seems like 9 times out of 10 he still ends up turning that type of stuff into damage because it throws his opponents off. Dude is a machine. His Ryu is just as godly tbh. I think if they nerf Akuma he will just win every tournament with him instead. | ||
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Noocta
France12578 Posts
http://penny-arcade.com/report/article/why-nobody-can-stop-sun-woo-lee-the-new-king-of-street-fighter It's a nice read. | ||
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Wangsta
United States776 Posts
once he got ultra u literally could not do anything, because back then he could cast super/ultra while a fireball was STILL ON the screen. he throws a fireball and u 100% cannot do anything except block it. cant neutral jump or focus or anything from full screen. have zero options except get chipped to death or eat the ultra on purpose | ||
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Excalibur_Z
United States12240 Posts
On May 02 2013 12:10 Wangsta wrote: earlier patches were unexplored. people always mention vanilla sagat but they forget about vanilla seth, who was easily more broken. once he got ultra u literally could not do anything, because back then he could cast super/ultra while a fireball was STILL ON the screen. he throws a fireball and u 100% cannot do anything except block it. cant neutral jump or focus or anything from full screen. have zero options except get chipped to death or eat the ultra on purpose Vanilla Seth made you make really stupid but necessary decisions to deal with his ultra trap, like neutral jumping over fireballs and intentionally landing on the fireball so that the ultra would whiff. I mained Zangief at the time and that was the most horrid matchup in existence. | ||
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ain
Germany786 Posts
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AnomalySC2
United States2073 Posts
On May 02 2013 08:47 Noocta wrote: There's a pretty good article on it on penny arcade http://penny-arcade.com/report/article/why-nobody-can-stop-sun-woo-lee-the-new-king-of-street-fighter It's a nice read. I do think his "studying" of opponents is a powerful tool, but I think maybe people are putting too much emphasis on that aspect of his game (maybe not, just imo). He really seems to simply have flawless execution, where lots of times his opponents just can't deal with his play and eventually whiff something big and he runs away with the match from there. I mean he never drops combos, whiffs something hugely punishable (if he does he fadc instantly) or misses anti airs. | ||
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Noocta
France12578 Posts
On May 02 2013 22:43 AnomalySC2 wrote: I do think his "studying" of opponents is a powerful tool, but I think maybe people are putting too much emphasis on that aspect of his game (maybe not, just imo). He really seems to simply have flawless execution, where lots of times his opponents just can't deal with his play and eventually whiff something big and he runs away with the match from there. I mean he never drops combos, whiffs something hugely punishable (if he does he fadc instantly) or misses anti airs. Probably a bit of both I feel. People are getting scared of him, it's getting in their heads. When you 3-0 someone to see him just 4-0 you back 20min after that, you seriously take a hit mentally for the next time you will meet the guy. PS : I just got B rank with Makoto, I'm quite happy :D Even if I'm a 1000~PP ish newbie that can't link shit underpressure lol. | ||
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