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On April 14 2013 08:00 diehilde wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2013 05:42 YulyaVolkova wrote:AE soon at Texas Showdown: http://www.twitch.tv/levelupliveAlso latest set of char threads up on capcomunity for the balance suggestions. Viper thread already up at 12 pages, unsurprisingly. 90%+ of the posts seem to be completely clueless - either random people saying to essentially make burnkicks unusable (punishable on block, cant crossup etc) or viper players asking for 10 solid buffs in exchange for a minor nerf on some random special. Its what I expected, but still kinda silly. It got me thinking about making major character design changes to Viper though (that would never be done by Capcom, but was interesting to think about). What about (opinions of other people, especially Vipers would be awesome) if you basically made burnkicks actually unusable. Like -10~ on block kinda unusable. Couldn't randomly do them midscreen, couldn't use them for oki on wakeup, couldn't use them close range as crouchtech/throw frametraps etc because the risk/rewards would be very, very not in Vipers favour. The only situation I could think it could be used would be in certain matchups you could burnkick over a fireball etc on reaction and itd obv be used in combos after seismos sometimes. This would basically make people shut the fuck up about burnkicks, and when I think about it, I personally wouldn't miss burnkicks much. Burnkicks are most definitely not what I enjoy the most about playing Viper. They either connect, or they don't, and they're not particularly interesting. I enjoy close range frametrap/overhead/throw games with feints etc, I enjoy seismo game, I enjoy antiair trades into followups and probably a bunch of other things. Burnkicks definitely don't appear on my list as 'uber fun Viper playstyle elements'. That could absolutely just be me though and other Vipers might love the shit out of them. As removing burnkicks as a viable get-in/oki/defense option would be an absolutely huge character-changing nerf, she would have to get considerable buffs in exchange. The five minutes of thought ive put into this basically came up with: -Make her normals actually good. Not just give them a buff, make them GOOD. Not necessarily Chunli or Balrog etc good, but at least able to be even~ in a footsie battle against the majority of the cast. -Improve her seismo game a little bit. Increased area each seismo hits? Less recovery or startup (would have to relearn seismo SJC timing)? Shrug. These two things would basically make a character that can zone to some degree with seismos (wouldn't change much from what its like now, would just be slightly better), but can then actually compete in footsie range and once shes 'in' would open people up much like Cammy does now - frametraps, throws into setups etc. I pretty much just think it would be cool as fuck seeing top level Vipers doing what you sometimes see Latif do vs opponents, normal->feint/doublefeint->normal frametraps for like 10 seconds. That being standard Viper offense because these normals would actually be solid as fuck with decent startup and being quite + on block once feinted - that would be quite exciting to perform and watch. Right now Latif can generally only get away with that when the opponent lets him - it can be interrupted pretty much whenever they want (as in its not a good frametrap) and it rarely leads to any damage, it just looks flashy. The downside compared to Cammy would be no EX divekick, but Viper would have her own close range frametrap advantages such as her overhead and she has a long range option in seismos which Cammy doesn't have. Just a quick 5 minute concept I came up with. It will never, ever be implemented because it would be a pretty huge set of changes to the character and wouldn't make everyone happy. I think id actually prefer this version of Viper (as a rough concept) to the current version, even though I love the current version to bits. No, just no. Burnkicks not particularly interesting? wtf man. Is a friggin shoryuken, tatsu or fireball interesting to you? Burnkick is the most interesting special in the entire friggin game. There are like a billion different versions of burnkicks. Frametrap viper doesnt work because she has no hit confirms into solid dmg combo but I guess you want to change her normals that she has more ways to combo into ex seismo. Why for the love of god? What your basically saying is to make viper into another frametrap character like cammy or cody, just with seismos. Go play cody or cammy if thats what floats your boat. Burnkick is what defines viper as a character.
You have a tendency to be pretty aggressive in your responses both here and on the srk forums. Might want to tone it down a bit.
Yeah, personally im not a huge fan of burnkicks. No, I wouldn't agree that burnkicks 'define Viper as a character'. Yes, id agree that burnkicks are good and I use the living shit out of them because thats the way Viper is designed.
Its just my personal take on the character. I don't get a great deal of satisfaction beating random (high ranked, 'decent') people online because they have no idea how to deal with burnkicks. You may enjoy beating up on people that take 8 burnkicks in a row, I don't. It took me about a day to learn how to burnkick decently 2 years ago. Most people aren't going to put in the effort in training mode to learn how to beat the shit out of Viper for burnkicking in blatant situations when they run into a Viper player that has any idea what they're doing once a month. Yes, thats their fault. Yes that means the Viper should be abusing the shit out of their lack of knowledge. For me personally, I don't find it particularly fun. Again, thats just me. You don't have to agree.
Viper has many traits that 'define her as a character'. Seismos are pretty fucking unique and pretty solid - they 'define' her playstyle entirely in some matchups and have some use in almost all matchups. Big damage punishes with small amounts of meter 'define her as a character'. Feints and their applications 'define her as a character'. High execution barrier 'defines her as a character'. Insane Ultra-combo ability 'defines her as a character'. I could go on. I just personally like all these other things (that Cody, Cammy do not have) much more than burnkicks. These things are why I play Viper, not because she has burnkick. Again, this doesn't have to be the same for you and is why I asked for other Vipers to respond - I was genuinely interested in what elements of Vipers game people really enjoy using. Thanks for replying, just chill a bit :o).
Also for clarification on why I don't like burnkicks. It essentially comes down to:
-Does the opponent know how to deal with burnkicks (and I mean really, really know)?
If yes: burnkicks are HORRIBLE. Like, absolutely horrible as an option in most matchups.
If no: you're beating up on someone because the opponent hasn't put time in, not because you're doing anything difficult/clever. Im just not a big fan of that.
Edit: I can attempt to describe it with feelings! :D
When I get like 4 burnkicks in a row on opponents wakeup I basically don't get any satisfaction from that - I just think 'Wow, this opponent is pretty fucking bad at playing against Viper'. When I get a st.strong->cr.fierce frametrap into EX seismo->meterlessFADC->reset->mixup its satisfying as fuck. I get the same satisfaction from all kinds of elements of Vipers game, its why I play her. Hitting people with a burnkick just doesn't do anything for me because it generally just suggests 'this persons bad' rather than giving me a feeling that I did anything particularly noteworthy myself. ^_^
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The thing is, Viper's mix up game would be really bad if you can't use burn kicks / cross up burn kicks.
You're looking at it the wrong way I feel.
Your opponent isn't bad because he took a burn kick, you made him took it by confusing him with your Feints mix up.
You can't be angry at the character because people are bad against her. As you said, you run into a decent Viper like once a month, she's really underplayed. A lot of character share that problem, like Gen and his weird mix ups and hard to understand Mantis j.MK cross up. Doesn't mean we have to rework the whole character.
If overall you don"t like playing a bit random, I feel you shouldn't play Viper. :o
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If you don't get any satisfaction from hitting people with crossups in this game you're probably playing the wrong game, or at least the wrong character.
Just sayin.
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On April 14 2013 13:24 Noocta wrote:
The thing is, Viper's mix up game would be really bad if you can't use burn kicks / cross up burn kicks.
You're looking at it the wrong way I feel.
Your opponent isn't bad because he took a burn kick, you made him took it by confusing him with your Feints mix up.
You can't be angry at the character because people are bad against her. As you said, you run into a decent Viper like once a month, she's really underplayed. A lot of character share that problem, like Gen and his weird mix ups and hard to understand Mantis j.MK cross up. Doesn't mean we have to rework the whole character.
If overall you don"t like playing a bit random, I feel you shouldn't play Viper. :o
I honestly feel like you should go reread my first post. Ive said I love Viper in her current state, love playing her, I burnkick alot etc etc.
It doesn't mean shes perfect for me. Like, is there nothing about Viper that you can say you dislike/wish was different? Not everyone will agree with your opinion just like not everybody will agree with mine, and ive already stated a couple of times that this was just theorycrafting, obviously this would never actually be done by Capcom because it would be completely changing the character which at this stage is not doable. I know that burnkicks are here to stay and will only get minor(hopefully not major) tweaks if anything done to them.
I was merely theorizing what a perfect Viper would look like for me, in terms of my enjoyment per minute playing SSF4:AE2012. It will never happen, and shouldn't at this stage, it doesn't mean I can't bring it up.
And I disagree with the notion that most burnkicks are 'skill' on the Vipers part because you did a low forward into a feint before you burnkicked which suddenly makes the burnkick incredibly hard to block. The burnkick is hard to block because of the minor adjustments (in a fraction of a second) that need to be made to make a burnkick crossup or not crossup which means that the only consistently viable way to defend against burnkicks is to make them whiff, which while incredibly doable takes alot of practice and gets fucked over reasonably badly by online delay. Burnkicks take very little mechanical skill to use (and can be used almost whenever the fuck Viper wants if the opponent isnt making them whiff) but require real dedication to learn how to defend against optimally.
Like, as a Viper player I can sit here and just say 'Ah, well these scrubs need to just learn how to deal with burnkicks', but I think thats honestly asking alot. I actually think its completely realistic to take someone thats only played SF4 for maybe a month, teach them how to be consistent with burnkick game and some incredibly basic blockstrings/very basic punish combos, and expect them to beat some reasonably decent players online semi-consistently. Vs random people online all you need is a random midscreen burnkick into instant burnkicks all day on their wakup. Im obviously exaggerating a bit but its pretty close to the truth.
As you said, her mixup game would be awful with no burnkicks. That was the whole point of the part in my original post that laid out the buffs she would get in exchange for shit burnkicks. She'd be frametrap based using feinted normals/seismos/meterless fadcs/overheads and not 'Im remotely close to my opponent better burnkick and hope the dude doesn't know how to deal with it'. Id prefer that, if you love burnkicks thats awesome :o). My semi-dislike of burnkicks doesnt affect my enjoyment of using Viper too much, shes still a fucking blast to play! I try to limit my burnkick usage as much as I realistically can purely so that I can play much better vs that 1-in-1000 person that actually destroys you for burnkicking almost ever.
Again, may be confusing because of the community balance change mention in my first post, but im in no way actually suggesting changes I think SHOULD be made in 2013 - absolutely not. Just think of my ramblings as 'If SSF4:AE2013:YULYAVOLKOVA EDITION was released, Viper would look like this' :o). Just wanted to see if any people agreed with my 'meh' opinion of burnkicks or if people loved the shit out of them!
Edit: And O-ops, why is crossup burnkick all Viper has? Can't I not particularly enjoy hitting a crossup burnkick but want to orgasm everytime I get EX Seismo->meterless FADC->Ultra, or seismo chain, or doublefiercefeint, or antiair trade into ultra, or sjc ultra, or just fucking FFF someone into stun, wakeup with fierce feint to bait OS'es and probably dozens of other examples. Why is it so black and white? Would you kindly point me to another character in AE that can do all of the things above? ^^
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Damn, you write a lot. I can't write that much, I'm not a native speaker, holy hell.
I understand better what you meant with this post, but you say it yourself : it's probably not gonna happen for this patch, or for this game. We will probably have to wait for SF5 with a new engine that isn't all about cross up and unblockable to get to see what they want to do with the character.
When I see Viper in UMvC3 with Burn kick feints, I'm not sure they will choose the road you want tho.. ~~
Although, when you look at Infiltration vs Latif again, you can see already that the character reliability on Burnkick is hurting her quite a bit when a player know how to make them whiff everytime. ( that damn crouch I don't remember which kick )
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On April 15 2013 02:16 Noocta wrote:
Damn, you write a lot. I can't write that much, I'm not a native speaker, holy hell.
I understand better what you meant with this post, but you say it yourself : it's probably not gonna happen for this patch, or for this game. We will probably have to wait for SF5 with a new engine that isn't all about cross up and unblockable to get to see what they want to do with the character.
When I see Viper in UMvC3 with Burn kick feints, I'm not sure they will choose the road you want tho.. ~~
Although, when you look at Infiltration vs Latif again, you can see already that the character reliability on Burnkick is hurting her quite a bit when a player know how to make them whiff everytime. ( that damn crouch I don't remember which kick )
I do write a lot :D. Ive lurked TL since about 2004, think I only made this account last year or something. Never been much of a forum poster. When I do post I write a lot though ^^.
Yeah its never going to happen. Like, ever, ever, ever. No argument here. Its just like, if I was somehow in charge of Capcom and managed to get everybody in the world to agree that my rough plan to alter Viper was the best thing in the world, id change her in the ways listed.
Yus Infiltration is a good (possibly the best) example of someone that really knows how to fuck over 90% of the options most Vipers rely on. Whenever I watch an Infiltration vs Latif/Krone match (like those at Final Round recently) I pretty much want to slit my wrists. Just looks like Viper can't press just about anything in almost any situation and when she gets knocked down Akuma vortex+OS'es just crushes her defensive options. Obviously Infiltration makes lots of characters look like that though.
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On April 14 2013 12:01 YulyaVolkova wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2013 08:00 diehilde wrote:On April 14 2013 05:42 YulyaVolkova wrote:AE soon at Texas Showdown: http://www.twitch.tv/levelupliveAlso latest set of char threads up on capcomunity for the balance suggestions. Viper thread already up at 12 pages, unsurprisingly. 90%+ of the posts seem to be completely clueless - either random people saying to essentially make burnkicks unusable (punishable on block, cant crossup etc) or viper players asking for 10 solid buffs in exchange for a minor nerf on some random special. Its what I expected, but still kinda silly. It got me thinking about making major character design changes to Viper though (that would never be done by Capcom, but was interesting to think about). What about (opinions of other people, especially Vipers would be awesome) if you basically made burnkicks actually unusable. Like -10~ on block kinda unusable. Couldn't randomly do them midscreen, couldn't use them for oki on wakeup, couldn't use them close range as crouchtech/throw frametraps etc because the risk/rewards would be very, very not in Vipers favour. The only situation I could think it could be used would be in certain matchups you could burnkick over a fireball etc on reaction and itd obv be used in combos after seismos sometimes. This would basically make people shut the fuck up about burnkicks, and when I think about it, I personally wouldn't miss burnkicks much. Burnkicks are most definitely not what I enjoy the most about playing Viper. They either connect, or they don't, and they're not particularly interesting. I enjoy close range frametrap/overhead/throw games with feints etc, I enjoy seismo game, I enjoy antiair trades into followups and probably a bunch of other things. Burnkicks definitely don't appear on my list as 'uber fun Viper playstyle elements'. That could absolutely just be me though and other Vipers might love the shit out of them. As removing burnkicks as a viable get-in/oki/defense option would be an absolutely huge character-changing nerf, she would have to get considerable buffs in exchange. The five minutes of thought ive put into this basically came up with: -Make her normals actually good. Not just give them a buff, make them GOOD. Not necessarily Chunli or Balrog etc good, but at least able to be even~ in a footsie battle against the majority of the cast. -Improve her seismo game a little bit. Increased area each seismo hits? Less recovery or startup (would have to relearn seismo SJC timing)? Shrug. These two things would basically make a character that can zone to some degree with seismos (wouldn't change much from what its like now, would just be slightly better), but can then actually compete in footsie range and once shes 'in' would open people up much like Cammy does now - frametraps, throws into setups etc. I pretty much just think it would be cool as fuck seeing top level Vipers doing what you sometimes see Latif do vs opponents, normal->feint/doublefeint->normal frametraps for like 10 seconds. That being standard Viper offense because these normals would actually be solid as fuck with decent startup and being quite + on block once feinted - that would be quite exciting to perform and watch. Right now Latif can generally only get away with that when the opponent lets him - it can be interrupted pretty much whenever they want (as in its not a good frametrap) and it rarely leads to any damage, it just looks flashy. The downside compared to Cammy would be no EX divekick, but Viper would have her own close range frametrap advantages such as her overhead and she has a long range option in seismos which Cammy doesn't have. Just a quick 5 minute concept I came up with. It will never, ever be implemented because it would be a pretty huge set of changes to the character and wouldn't make everyone happy. I think id actually prefer this version of Viper (as a rough concept) to the current version, even though I love the current version to bits. No, just no. Burnkicks not particularly interesting? wtf man. Is a friggin shoryuken, tatsu or fireball interesting to you? Burnkick is the most interesting special in the entire friggin game. There are like a billion different versions of burnkicks. Frametrap viper doesnt work because she has no hit confirms into solid dmg combo but I guess you want to change her normals that she has more ways to combo into ex seismo. Why for the love of god? What your basically saying is to make viper into another frametrap character like cammy or cody, just with seismos. Go play cody or cammy if thats what floats your boat. Burnkick is what defines viper as a character. You have a tendency to be pretty aggressive in your responses both here and on the srk forums. Might want to tone it down a bit. Yeah, personally im not a huge fan of burnkicks. No, I wouldn't agree that burnkicks 'define Viper as a character'. Yes, id agree that burnkicks are good and I use the living shit out of them because thats the way Viper is designed. Its just my personal take on the character. I don't get a great deal of satisfaction beating random (high ranked, 'decent') people online because they have no idea how to deal with burnkicks. You may enjoy beating up on people that take 8 burnkicks in a row, I don't. It took me about a day to learn how to burnkick decently 2 years ago. Most people aren't going to put in the effort in training mode to learn how to beat the shit out of Viper for burnkicking in blatant situations when they run into a Viper player that has any idea what they're doing once a month. Yes, thats their fault. Yes that means the Viper should be abusing the shit out of their lack of knowledge. For me personally, I don't find it particularly fun. Again, thats just me. You don't have to agree. Viper has many traits that 'define her as a character'. Seismos are pretty fucking unique and pretty solid - they 'define' her playstyle entirely in some matchups and have some use in almost all matchups. Big damage punishes with small amounts of meter 'define her as a character'. Feints and their applications 'define her as a character'. High execution barrier 'defines her as a character'. Insane Ultra-combo ability 'defines her as a character'. I could go on. I just personally like all these other things (that Cody, Cammy do not have) much more than burnkicks. These things are why I play Viper, not because she has burnkick. Again, this doesn't have to be the same for you and is why I asked for other Vipers to respond - I was genuinely interested in what elements of Vipers game people really enjoy using. Thanks for replying, just chill a bit :o). Also for clarification on why I don't like burnkicks. It essentially comes down to: -Does the opponent know how to deal with burnkicks (and I mean really, really know)? If yes: burnkicks are HORRIBLE. Like, absolutely horrible as an option in most matchups. If no: you're beating up on someone because the opponent hasn't put time in, not because you're doing anything difficult/clever. Im just not a big fan of that. Edit: I can attempt to describe it with feelings! :D When I get like 4 burnkicks in a row on opponents wakeup I basically don't get any satisfaction from that - I just think 'Wow, this opponent is pretty fucking bad at playing against Viper'. When I get a st.strong->cr.fierce frametrap into EX seismo->meterlessFADC->reset->mixup its satisfying as fuck. I get the same satisfaction from all kinds of elements of Vipers game, its why I play her. Hitting people with a burnkick just doesn't do anything for me because it generally just suggests 'this persons bad' rather than giving me a feeling that I did anything particularly noteworthy myself. ^_^
Who are you? eightbo? You dont agree that burnkicks define viper? Well your in a huge minority then, last I checked its her signature move. Ask random street fighter players that question and im sure the far and away most given answer is gonna be "burnkicks". Doesnt matter that other parts of her game are just as important, the most defining move when people think of viper is burnkick, like shoryuken is for ryu.
And no, burnkicks are far, FAR from horrible. Did you even watch Latif vs Infiltration at Final Round? Do you realize he is the only person in the entire top 8 that took a game off infiltration (aside Ryans draw)? Go watch that match and count the burnkicks. Then count how many were blocked, how many hit and how many were avoided with low forward and punished (hint: 0). I guess its because Infiltration is just bad at dealing with this horrible move... No. Its because Latif used them cleverly. Burnkick is a good move and hitting with it doesnt mean the other player is bad. Overusing it and hitting players on wake up x times in a row means the other player is bad. Do I enjoy it? No. Do I play such players? Maybe 3 times before I kick them. Mainly I play players who Ive played with a lot and who know how to deal with viper - still doesnt mean burnkick becomes useless. Just because somebody knows how to deal with burnkick doesnt mean hell never ever throw a single fireball at you or try a low poke at the wrong time. I also dont get your notion of skill. Why for the love of god is doing a frametrap more skillful than doing a burnkick? Everything is an educated guess in this game, hitting with a frametrap doesnt mean anything else than hitting with a burnkick - you tried something and your opponent did the wrong thing at the wrong time. And going for ex seismo into reset apart from a higly scaled dizzy is something you should never do, thats just bad and far more reliable on having a bad opponent than using burnkick. Instead you could go for sweep, rake in max dmg and 200 more stun and get a hard knockdown with far more mixup possibilities than the ones you get off a reset. Thats just being flashy for the sake of it.
What I like most about viper isnt burnkicks. Its having bad footsies coupled with high dmg/stun combos which means you really have to work for your opportunities and maximize every chance you get. If youd nerf her burnkicks but gave her good footsies, it wouldnt make her harder or more intelligent to play, quite the opposite. Opening up a player with bad footsies takes a lot more skill than doing so with ridiculous ones like akumas sweep. Raw burnkicks dont lead to combos or hard knockdowns, good footsies do. Give that to Viper, who has pretty much the biggest damage and stun output off various situations in the game, and shes flat OP, even if you take out burnkick entirely. No thanks Id rather take burnkick as is and bad footsies, because it sure is a hell of a lot harder to play viper at very high level that way than playing viper with good footsies and a whole less special to worry about (except for combo enders).
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On April 15 2013 07:17 diehilde wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2013 12:01 YulyaVolkova wrote:On April 14 2013 08:00 diehilde wrote:On April 14 2013 05:42 YulyaVolkova wrote:AE soon at Texas Showdown: http://www.twitch.tv/levelupliveAlso latest set of char threads up on capcomunity for the balance suggestions. Viper thread already up at 12 pages, unsurprisingly. 90%+ of the posts seem to be completely clueless - either random people saying to essentially make burnkicks unusable (punishable on block, cant crossup etc) or viper players asking for 10 solid buffs in exchange for a minor nerf on some random special. Its what I expected, but still kinda silly. It got me thinking about making major character design changes to Viper though (that would never be done by Capcom, but was interesting to think about). What about (opinions of other people, especially Vipers would be awesome) if you basically made burnkicks actually unusable. Like -10~ on block kinda unusable. Couldn't randomly do them midscreen, couldn't use them for oki on wakeup, couldn't use them close range as crouchtech/throw frametraps etc because the risk/rewards would be very, very not in Vipers favour. The only situation I could think it could be used would be in certain matchups you could burnkick over a fireball etc on reaction and itd obv be used in combos after seismos sometimes. This would basically make people shut the fuck up about burnkicks, and when I think about it, I personally wouldn't miss burnkicks much. Burnkicks are most definitely not what I enjoy the most about playing Viper. They either connect, or they don't, and they're not particularly interesting. I enjoy close range frametrap/overhead/throw games with feints etc, I enjoy seismo game, I enjoy antiair trades into followups and probably a bunch of other things. Burnkicks definitely don't appear on my list as 'uber fun Viper playstyle elements'. That could absolutely just be me though and other Vipers might love the shit out of them. As removing burnkicks as a viable get-in/oki/defense option would be an absolutely huge character-changing nerf, she would have to get considerable buffs in exchange. The five minutes of thought ive put into this basically came up with: -Make her normals actually good. Not just give them a buff, make them GOOD. Not necessarily Chunli or Balrog etc good, but at least able to be even~ in a footsie battle against the majority of the cast. -Improve her seismo game a little bit. Increased area each seismo hits? Less recovery or startup (would have to relearn seismo SJC timing)? Shrug. These two things would basically make a character that can zone to some degree with seismos (wouldn't change much from what its like now, would just be slightly better), but can then actually compete in footsie range and once shes 'in' would open people up much like Cammy does now - frametraps, throws into setups etc. I pretty much just think it would be cool as fuck seeing top level Vipers doing what you sometimes see Latif do vs opponents, normal->feint/doublefeint->normal frametraps for like 10 seconds. That being standard Viper offense because these normals would actually be solid as fuck with decent startup and being quite + on block once feinted - that would be quite exciting to perform and watch. Right now Latif can generally only get away with that when the opponent lets him - it can be interrupted pretty much whenever they want (as in its not a good frametrap) and it rarely leads to any damage, it just looks flashy. The downside compared to Cammy would be no EX divekick, but Viper would have her own close range frametrap advantages such as her overhead and she has a long range option in seismos which Cammy doesn't have. Just a quick 5 minute concept I came up with. It will never, ever be implemented because it would be a pretty huge set of changes to the character and wouldn't make everyone happy. I think id actually prefer this version of Viper (as a rough concept) to the current version, even though I love the current version to bits. No, just no. Burnkicks not particularly interesting? wtf man. Is a friggin shoryuken, tatsu or fireball interesting to you? Burnkick is the most interesting special in the entire friggin game. There are like a billion different versions of burnkicks. Frametrap viper doesnt work because she has no hit confirms into solid dmg combo but I guess you want to change her normals that she has more ways to combo into ex seismo. Why for the love of god? What your basically saying is to make viper into another frametrap character like cammy or cody, just with seismos. Go play cody or cammy if thats what floats your boat. Burnkick is what defines viper as a character. You have a tendency to be pretty aggressive in your responses both here and on the srk forums. Might want to tone it down a bit. Yeah, personally im not a huge fan of burnkicks. No, I wouldn't agree that burnkicks 'define Viper as a character'. Yes, id agree that burnkicks are good and I use the living shit out of them because thats the way Viper is designed. Its just my personal take on the character. I don't get a great deal of satisfaction beating random (high ranked, 'decent') people online because they have no idea how to deal with burnkicks. You may enjoy beating up on people that take 8 burnkicks in a row, I don't. It took me about a day to learn how to burnkick decently 2 years ago. Most people aren't going to put in the effort in training mode to learn how to beat the shit out of Viper for burnkicking in blatant situations when they run into a Viper player that has any idea what they're doing once a month. Yes, thats their fault. Yes that means the Viper should be abusing the shit out of their lack of knowledge. For me personally, I don't find it particularly fun. Again, thats just me. You don't have to agree. Viper has many traits that 'define her as a character'. Seismos are pretty fucking unique and pretty solid - they 'define' her playstyle entirely in some matchups and have some use in almost all matchups. Big damage punishes with small amounts of meter 'define her as a character'. Feints and their applications 'define her as a character'. High execution barrier 'defines her as a character'. Insane Ultra-combo ability 'defines her as a character'. I could go on. I just personally like all these other things (that Cody, Cammy do not have) much more than burnkicks. These things are why I play Viper, not because she has burnkick. Again, this doesn't have to be the same for you and is why I asked for other Vipers to respond - I was genuinely interested in what elements of Vipers game people really enjoy using. Thanks for replying, just chill a bit :o). Also for clarification on why I don't like burnkicks. It essentially comes down to: -Does the opponent know how to deal with burnkicks (and I mean really, really know)? If yes: burnkicks are HORRIBLE. Like, absolutely horrible as an option in most matchups. If no: you're beating up on someone because the opponent hasn't put time in, not because you're doing anything difficult/clever. Im just not a big fan of that. Edit: I can attempt to describe it with feelings! :D When I get like 4 burnkicks in a row on opponents wakeup I basically don't get any satisfaction from that - I just think 'Wow, this opponent is pretty fucking bad at playing against Viper'. When I get a st.strong->cr.fierce frametrap into EX seismo->meterlessFADC->reset->mixup its satisfying as fuck. I get the same satisfaction from all kinds of elements of Vipers game, its why I play her. Hitting people with a burnkick just doesn't do anything for me because it generally just suggests 'this persons bad' rather than giving me a feeling that I did anything particularly noteworthy myself. ^_^ Who are you? eightbo? You dont agree that burnkicks define viper? Well your in a huge minority then, last I checked its her signature move. Ask random street fighter players that question and im sure the far and away most given answer is gonna be "burnkicks". Doesnt matter that other parts of her game are just as important, the most defining move when people think of viper is burnkick, like shoryuken is for ryu. And no, burnkicks are far, FAR from horrible. Did you even watch Latif vs Infiltration at Final Round? Do you realize he is the only person in the entire top 8 that took a game off infiltration (aside Ryans draw)? Go watch that match and count the burnkicks. Then count how many were blocked, how many hit and how many were avoided with low forward and punished (hint: 0). I guess its because Infiltration is just bad at dealing with this horrible move... No. Its because Latif used them cleverly. Burnkick is a good move and hitting with it doesnt mean the other player is bad. Overusing it and hitting players on wake up x times in a row means the other player is bad. Do I enjoy it? No. Do I play such players? Maybe 3 times before I kick them. Mainly I play players who Ive played with a lot and who know how to deal with viper - still doesnt mean burnkick becomes useless. Just because somebody knows how to deal with burnkick doesnt mean hell never ever throw a single fireball at you or try a low poke at the wrong time. I also dont get your notion of skill. Why for the love of god is doing a frametrap more skillful than doing a burnkick? Everything is an educated guess in this game, hitting with a frametrap doesnt mean anything else than hitting with a burnkick - you tried something and your opponent did the wrong thing at the wrong time. And going for ex seismo into reset apart from a higly scaled dizzy is something you should never do, thats just bad and far more reliable on having a bad opponent than using burnkick. Instead you could go for sweep, rake in max dmg and 200 more stun and get a hard knockdown with far more mixup possibilities than the ones you get off a reset. Thats just being flashy for the sake of it. What I like most about viper isnt burnkicks. Its having bad footsies coupled with high dmg/stun combos which means you really have to work for your opportunities and maximize every chance you get. If youd nerf her burnkicks but gave her good footsies, it wouldnt make her harder or more intelligent to play, quite the opposite. Opening up a player with bad footsies takes a lot more skill than doing so with ridiculous ones like akumas sweep. Raw burnkicks dont lead to combos or hard knockdowns, good footsies do. Give that to Viper, who has pretty much the biggest damage and stun output off various situations in the game, and shes flat OP, even if you take out burnkick entirely. No thanks Id rather take burnkick as is and bad footsies, because it sure is a hell of a lot harder to play viper at very high level that way than playing viper with good footsies and a whole less special to worry about (except for combo enders).
All fine opinions :o). Don't agree with all of it, but solid thinking.
Edit: Just to clarify bits I disagree with a bits I think youre spot on with (hopefully quickly):
I actually totally agree about the recent Infiltration games vs Latif, burnkicks were actually doing okay vs him in that set, partly because Latif was purposefully delaying his burnkicks quite a bit so they're not hitting at standard timings. That is just solid play and is something ive been experimenting with since I saw it do so well vs Infiltration. Definitely a good sign for burnkicks. When I was talking about making burnkicks useless I was mostly talking about the FT7 set that Infiltration 7-0ed where (I havn't watched it for a while) it seemed Infiltration dodged/stuffed almost everything Latif tried to do for 7 games, including burnkicks. Youre definitely right though, it looked much better for Latif at Final Round.
I see FFF into reset (of some sort) done by both Latif and Krone pretty often. You obviously don't use it as your standard FFF ender but thrown in at appropriate spots in the appropriate way it works stupidly well.
No, there's nothing really inherently different about hitting opponents with a frametrap or a burnkick, you're right. Im completely aware that the game is basically just rapid damage-EV calculations followed by execution. Some other elements of it make it feel much less satisfying though, namely:
-A frametrap requires a read. You need to (generally) know why you're doing the frametrap and when you're going to time it for it to hit at all often. Yeah, you can just randomly just do a frametrap based on no information and have it work but it probably wont. A burnkick you can just kinda, do, and it will often work because of its inherent properties as a move, not because of good play/gamesense/note-taking on the Vipers part.
-Burnkicks are pretty damn safe vs most opponents. Again, they can just kinda be done and forgotten about - most of the time you end up getting in with frame advantage even if it didnt hit, anyway. A frametrap has to read that they're opponent isnt going to randomly mash shit. Randomly mashing shoryukens midscreen to guess-catch burnkicks can happen, doesn't happen as much as randomly mashing shoryukens when the Vipers up in the opponents face.
You could well be right with everything you said in the last paragraph :o). I have to say, I think ive given a slightly wrong impression about burnkicks - I really don't dislike them and do like having them as a tool when playing Viper. They're not completely dull and definitely have some interesting uses. I think to some degree my burnkick-play may have just become a bit stale and ive perhaps stopped experimenting with them as much as I can. Ill try to implement some 'different' burnkick stuff into my play :o).
Fuck, went long again.
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On April 15 2013 07:17 diehilde wrote:
the most defining move when people think of viper is burnkick, like shoryuken is for ryu.
Shoryu is Ken, Ryu is hadoken :p, which is funny because shoRyu and hadoKen 
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United States4126 Posts
On April 15 2013 21:20 HeatEXTEND wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2013 07:17 diehilde wrote:
the most defining move when people think of viper is burnkick, like shoryuken is for ryu.
Shoryu is Ken, Ryu is hadoken :p, which is funny because shoRyu and hadoKen
..... I never made that connection...
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Thats because it isnt there. After all the move is called shoryuken.
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Just bought the game on Steam (as a birthday present to myself). Now begins the challenge, trying out every character.
I like playing the game with keyboard. As a PC-gamer, it feels more natural that way.
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After all this Viper talk I felt like giving her another shot and brushing up a bit, since she's one of my favorite characters but I wasn't confident in my execution or game knowledge back when I tried to play her (like < 1 month after getting the game AND a stick lol).
It's amazing what a years worth of experience does. She feels much more natural now. Just need to practice my FFF timing hehehe.
Anyone have a trick/advice to doing seismo chains? I can do the motion somewhat well, but the timing is eluding me. Can't determine if I should input it slowly like repetitive, fluid movements... or do it very quickly. The rhythm I use is the same as she shouts when it's done successfully. Should I be a little quicker than this, due to the way inputting works?
Practicepracticepracitce
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On April 14 2013 05:42 YulyaVolkova wrote:AE soon at Texas Showdown: http://www.twitch.tv/levelupliveAlso latest set of char threads up on capcomunity for the balance suggestions. Viper thread already up at 12 pages, unsurprisingly. 90%+ of the posts seem to be completely clueless - either random people saying to essentially make burnkicks unusable (punishable on block, cant crossup etc) or viper players asking for 10 solid buffs in exchange for a minor nerf on some random special. Its what I expected, but still kinda silly. It got me thinking about making major character design changes to Viper though (that would never be done by Capcom, but was interesting to think about). What about (opinions of other people, especially Vipers would be awesome) if you basically made burnkicks actually unusable. Like -10~ on block kinda unusable. Couldn't randomly do them midscreen, couldn't use them for oki on wakeup, couldn't use them close range as crouchtech/throw frametraps etc because the risk/rewards would be very, very not in Vipers favour. The only situation I could think it could be used would be in certain matchups you could burnkick over a fireball etc on reaction and itd obv be used in combos after seismos sometimes. This would basically make people shut the fuck up about burnkicks, and when I think about it, I personally wouldn't miss burnkicks much. Burnkicks are most definitely not what I enjoy the most about playing Viper. They either connect, or they don't, and they're not particularly interesting. I enjoy close range frametrap/overhead/throw games with feints etc, I enjoy seismo game, I enjoy antiair trades into followups and probably a bunch of other things. Burnkicks definitely don't appear on my list as 'uber fun Viper playstyle elements'. That could absolutely just be me though and other Vipers might love the shit out of them. As removing burnkicks as a viable get-in/oki/defense option would be an absolutely huge character-changing nerf, she would have to get considerable buffs in exchange. The five minutes of thought ive put into this basically came up with: -Make her normals actually good. Not just give them a buff, make them GOOD. Not necessarily Chunli or Balrog etc good, but at least able to be even~ in a footsie battle against the majority of the cast. -Improve her seismo game a little bit. Increased area each seismo hits? Less recovery or startup (would have to relearn seismo SJC timing)? Shrug. These two things would basically make a character that can zone to some degree with seismos (wouldn't change much from what its like now, would just be slightly better), but can then actually compete in footsie range and once shes 'in' would open people up much like Cammy does now - frametraps, throws into setups etc. I pretty much just think it would be cool as fuck seeing top level Vipers doing what you sometimes see Latif do vs opponents, normal->feint/doublefeint->normal frametraps for like 10 seconds. That being standard Viper offense because these normals would actually be solid as fuck with decent startup and being quite + on block once feinted - that would be quite exciting to perform and watch. Right now Latif can generally only get away with that when the opponent lets him - it can be interrupted pretty much whenever they want (as in its not a good frametrap) and it rarely leads to any damage, it just looks flashy. The downside compared to Cammy would be no EX divekick, but Viper would have her own close range frametrap advantages such as her overhead and she has a long range option in seismos which Cammy doesn't have. Just a quick 5 minute concept I came up with. It will never, ever be implemented because it would be a pretty huge set of changes to the character and wouldn't make everyone happy. I think id actually prefer this version of Viper (as a rough concept) to the current version, even though I love the current version to bits.
Uh lol.. Burnkicks are pretty cool and unique for viper. Otherwise shes just a weird projectile character
Id like personally to see her stand or crouch jab be made 3f and c.mk finally get lengthened. They can do whatever in turn regarding nerfing particular damage or whatever
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On April 16 2013 15:42 Duka08 wrote:
After all this Viper talk I felt like giving her another shot and brushing up a bit, since she's one of my favorite characters but I wasn't confident in my execution or game knowledge back when I tried to play her (like < 1 month after getting the game AND a stick lol).
It's amazing what a years worth of experience does. She feels much more natural now. Just need to practice my FFF timing hehehe.
Anyone have a trick/advice to doing seismo chains? I can do the motion somewhat well, but the timing is eluding me. Can't determine if I should input it slowly like repetitive, fluid movements... or do it very quickly. The rhythm I use is the same as she shouts when it's done successfully. Should I be a little quicker than this, due to the way inputting works?
Practicepracticepracitce
its probably slower than you think to do non-ex seismo chains
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On April 16 2013 15:42 Duka08 wrote:
After all this Viper talk I felt like giving her another shot and brushing up a bit, since she's one of my favorite characters but I wasn't confident in my execution or game knowledge back when I tried to play her (like < 1 month after getting the game AND a stick lol).
It's amazing what a years worth of experience does. She feels much more natural now. Just need to practice my FFF timing hehehe.
Anyone have a trick/advice to doing seismo chains? I can do the motion somewhat well, but the timing is eluding me. Can't determine if I should input it slowly like repetitive, fluid movements... or do it very quickly. The rhythm I use is the same as she shouts when it's done successfully. Should I be a little quicker than this, due to the way inputting works?
Practicepracticepracitce
You can do each sjcseismo motion pretty slowly and the button press is quite delayed, most people rush it. Best to just stay as calm+accurate as possible, no need for speed.
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On April 16 2013 15:42 Duka08 wrote:
After all this Viper talk I felt like giving her another shot and brushing up a bit, since she's one of my favorite characters but I wasn't confident in my execution or game knowledge back when I tried to play her (like < 1 month after getting the game AND a stick lol).
It's amazing what a years worth of experience does. She feels much more natural now. Just need to practice my FFF timing hehehe.
Anyone have a trick/advice to doing seismo chains? I can do the motion somewhat well, but the timing is eluding me. Can't determine if I should input it slowly like repetitive, fluid movements... or do it very quickly. The rhythm I use is the same as she shouts when it's done successfully. Should I be a little quicker than this, due to the way inputting works?
Practicepracticepracitce
Seismo chain are weird, you have to do them very slowly actually.
Just input a seismo, then input a second one but finish your motion at Up Forward instead of Forward.
Start inputing it after Viper's hand hit the ground for the first seismo. And don't hit your punch button for the second seismo too quickly.
I'm personnaly getting better at it, but doing really fast TK feint between normals is still out of my reach. ( like cr.MK xx feint >instant cross up burn kick is so hard for me right now... )
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Ahhh I was probably doing it too early. Like I said I tried fast and slow, and I have a lot of experience with the tiger knee motion itself so I'm fairly confident in that, it was just the timing of when. Gonna try some today with delaying the whole input way more than I was (I kept super jumping out usually)
Edit: Yuuuuuup, definitely needed to do it waaaaaaay later. Got like a dozen in a row now. Also figured out there are characters that can get hit by it from corner to corner for easier practice. Lol.
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On April 17 2013 00:10 Duka08 wrote:
Ahhh I was probably doing it too early. Like I said I tried fast and slow, and I have a lot of experience with the tiger knee motion itself so I'm fairly confident in that, it was just the timing of when. Gonna try some today with delaying the whole input way more than I was (I kept super jumping out usually)
Edit: Yuuuuuup, definitely needed to do it waaaaaaay later. Got like a dozen in a row now. Also figured out there are characters that can get hit by it from corner to corner for easier practice. Lol.
Sagat set to crouching block all? Are there any more? :o
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Rufus lol. Probably a couple? I'd just try all the big bodies unless these two just have specifically bad hitboxes
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EPT
