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On October 26 2012 03:06 Shikyo wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2012 02:34 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:
also shikyo what the fuck ibuki's sjc ultra is worthless? WHat??
anyway as always you are too concerned with numbers. 'ibuki can do x damage, so can y top tier, therefore ibuki should be top tier as well because she has a vortex' or whatever you said. game doesn't work like that lol. Not exactly useless, just I'm not sure if it's worth picking over U1. Basically in punish scenarios it always does less dmg even with SJC so we're left with hit confirming in which case it's around 100 more dmg than BnB with zero stun, super, or okizeme. So it works as a finisher like that. Still, you can't reversal with ultra2 because even jab trades with it, you can't use it as an anti-air, etc. Anti-fireball works but ex-neckbreaker tends to make them not want to throw fireballs anyway. It's good for long distance punishes though. Also yeah I know the game doesn't work that way, though I'm pretty sure that tier lists and matchup charts don't take into account Ibukis 370 damage meterless punish comboes because almost no one does that.
SJC-U2 is an extremely easy and reliable way to ultra with a character that does not need it. In fact, I would say it's the most common way, so, to me, it is the best ultra choice.
U1, however, is a 1 frame startup that can punish certain things.
I don't play Ibuki terribly often, but I play almost exclusively rushdown/vortex characters: viper/cammy/seth/etc, so that would be my interpretation. The only situation I would use U1 is where you KNOW that 1f punish would be worthwhile. Even then, U2 has to be close in damage. This is completely ignorant of actual damage numbers, but Ibuki's ultra matters very little to her game as opposed to say, Ryu or Viper.
On October 26 2012 03:13 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:
lol...
trumpet, yeah I got a pocket chun but she's not great. I know the Gief matchup with Sakura very well and it's not as close to 6-4 in Gief's favor as the Cammy matchup (i fucking hate playing Gief with cammy... can't believe how lame i have to play)
I'm not good enough at chun vs gief specifically to pick her in that matchup, and cammy destroys the other characters I used to play chun against, so...
Gief was the one of the matchups I had the most problems with. It was mostly my issue with the fact that I love to press buttons. Naturally, it follows that I also love to get hit/grabbed because of this. I'm still not sure how to reliably beat him with Viper, besides the whole be lame-as-a-mother-fucker thing. I generally end up trying to punish impatient stuff, but frankly that match is uphill for me, and BORING too. When faced up against a Gief, everyone seems to be forced into his game. For a Viper player, as I'm sure it as for Sakura too, it is a test of patience.
Edit: Thinking about the Ibuki thing, can you dp fadc u1? Like you can with her Raida?
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You can DP FADC u1 but it's worthless and deals no damage. Don't see a reason to do that instead of something like cl.HK SJC command dash cr.HP -> reset or cl.HK JC jf.HK into techable knockdown at your feet. You gain stun and super meter off those 2, don't gain for ultra.
Also that's the thing with Ibukis ultra 2. Even if she SJCs into it, is it better than just doing her normal combo? She gets no super meter, causes no stun, gets no setup afterwards(And it's an Ibuki setup, who has perhaps the best okizeme along with Akuma). It's only good for finishing off a round or getting an opponent into EX-Kunai chip range, and only when your ultra meter is near full.
Oh yeah, what I really wanted to say: Watched Chris Hu commentate on this one Yun and it was hilarious. "He's going to EX DP now" -> did it "He's going to EX rush punch now" -> did it "Now he's going for a command grab" -> he did it and so on ^_^ Why so good
What made the command grab even better was that he hadn't used the command grab even once that set, and then suddenly he's like "He's going to command grab" and he does his first one there ...
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Apparently Mago is playing Adon in the team tourney LOL
And holy shit team SEA is stacked.
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On October 26 2012 13:00 Shikyo wrote:
Also that's the thing with Ibukis ultra 2. Even if she SJCs into it, is it better than just doing her normal combo? She gets no super meter, causes no stun, gets no setup afterwards(And it's an Ibuki setup, who has perhaps the best okizeme along with Akuma). It's only good for finishing off a round or getting an opponent into EX-Kunai chip range, and only when your ultra meter is near full.
Your post got me questioning how much damage it actually did, and to the position they were in after. Jumped in sf4, here's what I got:
422 off of jab-strong-fierce TC xx SJC U2 and a corner from anywhere at least mid-screen.
You sacrifice the immediate positioning of a Neckbreaker finisher in favor of a higher damage combo finisher, and an overall better position -- assuming you used it to move opponent to corner. Now, I can't remember the exact damage, but the same TC into Neckbreaker was ~217. This is ignoring her loops as they have variable damage. So, you do sacrifice some oki setups, but it's almost twice the damage AND you get a corner which is a better overall oki setup.
Optimal finisher for Ibuki is technically Raida. It's not used over Neckbreaker because the positioning, as you implied, is so important to Ibuki's game. Which it is. What I'm trying to say is that if you are in a position beyond mid-screen you need to be using U2 for optimal punishes. Of course this depends on meter/life left/other variables, but that's the conclusion I've come up with.
Off the top of my head, I cannot think of an Ibuki combo that does near that much damage. I also have no clue on how much Tsumuji(I think? QCB+K thing) loops do, or how many repetitions you can do and who on. Character specific combos etc. I'd like to think that nothing Ibuki could do could touch the SJC U2 damage, but I'm not sure. Frankly, the damage itself is enough for me to go for that when I have the meter. The positioning is icing to me. I much prefer a corner to an ambiguous kunai (I'm not sure if the same kunai setups work in the corner. Here is my lack of Ibuki knowledge, apologies).
The SJC-U2 is a sure fire way to get ~380 damage, and it's almost impossible to drop with even a modicum of execution. I cannot think of a reason, besides the 1f punish I mentioned in the earlier post, that I would want U1 for. The other probable reasons, damage trade off/positioning trade off, seem to be irrelevant assuming you have enough meter for it to matter. I didn't think to test 1/2 meter or 3/4 meter, and now I'm too lazy to turn sf4 back on.
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First of all, note you're comparing damage with full ultra meter which indeed was one of my requirements. The combo at least is useless without full meter.
I don't think corner is better than okizeme, otherwise people would be finishing their comboes with Reida instead of Neckbreaker.
Hmm LP MP HP isn't what I had in mind, that's kind of tough to land as a hitconfirm and you need to be right in their face to even begin it. I'm not sure when I'd use it except after a Kunai. I was thinking more like cr.LK cr.LP s.MK or cr.LP cr.LP s.MK which are a lot more practical(and far more difficult). Off a LP MP HP combo it can be a good option though.
Tsumuji loops are character specific. If you land a s.MP the single Tsumuji loop (that works on 82% of the cast) off that deals 340 damage and 483 stun if you finish with Neckbreaker. The double Tsumuji loop against the characters it works on off that deals 385 damage and 528 stun. Both comboes also give over 1 super meter and perfect okizeme.
I guess if you are against someone who you cannot Tsumuji loop it's a better option to SJC(Blanka, Cammy, C.Viper, Dan, Juri, Rose, T.Hawk) and that would likely make you more inclined to pick ultra 2 against them.
Still, watching probably hundreds of Ibuki videos, I think there was just like, one or two situations where a SJC ultra combo killed the opponent where a normal combo wouldn't have killed them(where Ibuki didn't have full super meter because comboing to super deals more dmg than ultra2)
the SJC comboes being harder to drop is a factor, though I think doing it off s.MK is still really tough.
Damn, Overhead -> s.MP is character specific(vs crouchers) as is far LP against crouchers. I might need to start using a notebook or something, write down everything that works for each character so whenever I play a character I can just check which character-specific stuff works on them -__-
Oh and more importantly, I succeeded in a double Tsumuji loop for the first time!
Oh and now many more times, guess after you get the hang of it...
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United Kingdom14464 Posts
Just got the game, been playing around with Ken a bit cause i want to play a shoto but I don't like playing the main character/race/group of a series so Ryu was out, and Akuma's sandals make me giggle. Any tips to get started, for now i've just been messing around in training vs bots.
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I honestly don't remember much about ken specifically, I want to say one of the regular posters here is a ken main but I forget who :x
Biggest thing when you're new to the game is learning some basic footsies. First step to that is learning how to anti air so people can't just jump at you like mad men--at least not unless they knock you down first.
As ken, your most obvious anti air tools are cr.hp and medium shoryuken. medium shoryu is probably better for most situations, but crouching hp will probably be a lot easier for you to react with.
there are combos aka bnbs on the shoryuken.com wiki or ken forums somewhere, but learning fancy stuff isn't that important when you're starting. Just make sure you have some type of combo, even if it's just hp xx heavy shoryuken, to do in punish situations (aka when you block someone else's shoryuken)
Also people get hype canada cup starts today
http://twitch.tv/canadacup
LETS GO [̲̅$̲̅(̲̅8.95)̲̅$̲̅] !!!!
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Ken is just as "main" as Ryu, can't have one without the other...
Anyway, as a fellow scrub all I can really say is try to remember to stay on the ground and learn ranges and speeds of your different attacks - you don't have to know the frame difference between your jab and your strong but at least know in your head roughly how long it'll take to connect.
Practice a simple bread and butter, a simple punish, and how to anti-air. Don't start worrying about things like vortex, FADC, fuzzies, etc. until after you're super consistent on everything else, otherwise you won't have the mechanics to make them work right. Please note that I can't follow my own advice however on just about any of this 
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Ken isn't nearly as "main" as Ryu.
My protip is to learn to kara throw and to abuse it. It's insanely good.
Your main gameplay should be to spam fireballs until they jump and then anti-air them with Shoryuken. Apart from that learn some simple combo like HP -> Shoryuken for punishing and maybe something like cr.LP cr.LP cr.MK Hadoken as a hitconfirm / block combo.
Shotos are pretty simple to pick up and play. Not Bison level but still
By the way, watching Canada Cup. White Gun has the second-sexiest non-Sako Ibuki I've seen, hope he wins the tournament.
Also I hadn't even thought of overhead -> s.MK -> SJC ultra2. You can easily confirm that... That alone might be enough to make me rethink my ultras ><
...Although I can only do SJC ultra s.MK to the left side and even that inconsistently ._.
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United States12240 Posts
On October 27 2012 01:22 Trumpet wrote:I honestly don't remember much about ken specifically, I want to say one of the regular posters here is a ken main but I forget who :x Biggest thing when you're new to the game is learning some basic footsies. First step to that is learning how to anti air so people can't just jump at you like mad men--at least not unless they knock you down first. As ken, your most obvious anti air tools are cr.hp and medium shoryuken. medium shoryu is probably better for most situations, but crouching hp will probably be a lot easier for you to react with. there are combos aka bnbs on the shoryuken.com wiki or ken forums somewhere, but learning fancy stuff isn't that important when you're starting. Just make sure you have some type of combo, even if it's just hp xx heavy shoryuken, to do in punish situations (aka when you block someone else's shoryuken) Also people get hype canada cup starts today http://twitch.tv/canadacupLETS GO [̲̅$̲̅(̲̅8.95)̲̅$̲̅] !!!!
I cannot believe that they're still charging $8.95 for the paid stream after last year's fiasco. I want to believe they're self-aware and doing it ironically but I just don't know...
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On October 27 2012 04:52 Excalibur_Z wrote:Show nested quote +On October 27 2012 01:22 Trumpet wrote:I honestly don't remember much about ken specifically, I want to say one of the regular posters here is a ken main but I forget who :x Biggest thing when you're new to the game is learning some basic footsies. First step to that is learning how to anti air so people can't just jump at you like mad men--at least not unless they knock you down first. As ken, your most obvious anti air tools are cr.hp and medium shoryuken. medium shoryu is probably better for most situations, but crouching hp will probably be a lot easier for you to react with. there are combos aka bnbs on the shoryuken.com wiki or ken forums somewhere, but learning fancy stuff isn't that important when you're starting. Just make sure you have some type of combo, even if it's just hp xx heavy shoryuken, to do in punish situations (aka when you block someone else's shoryuken) Also people get hype canada cup starts today http://twitch.tv/canadacupLETS GO [̲̅$̲̅(̲̅8.95)̲̅$̲̅] !!!! I cannot believe that they're still charging $8.95 for the paid stream after last year's fiasco. I want to believe they're self-aware and doing it ironically but I just don't know...
Most hilarious thing is the chat being a graveyard with only like 5 people talking because they only allow subscribers to talk so we're all chatting at http://www.twitch.tv/nycfurby
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wherever you are, good luck in your pool fakesteve, lets hope you get some stream time!!! TL represent!
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AE going down on canada cup stream now, gogogo!
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This Mike Ross commentary is hilarious.
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Lmao, Flash to Marn: "How do you go from beating Daigo to losing to Laugh?"
LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL
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Important milestone: I performed the Ibuki vs Abel combo cr.HP -> JC MP Kunai -> s.MP -> s.MK -> LK Tsumuji -> s.LP -> s.MP -> LK Tsumuji -> s.LP -> s.MK -> Neckbreaker for a 13 hit combo of 390 damage.
Worthless combo in practice because it's not optimal but it still felt really really good <3
edit: nvm its optimal
It has 4 1 frame links.
edit: nvm only 3 1 frames.
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Is Canada Cup supposed to have Top16 or Top8 SSF4AE today? I'm getting conflicting information from different people :|
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United States12240 Posts
It's supposed to be Top 16 but it's starting late because people didn't show up on time.
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Sick double KO win for Xian there.
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EPT
