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On October 24 2012 05:18 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:
you dunno man. my preferred punish combo right now in some matchups is c.fp > c.fp > super LOL
i've been working on punishing whiffed lariats (among other things) with c.fp > super too
I'm of course not good at all but I don't see why you'd save for a super meter with cammy instead of using the skill Justin Wong(and many others) calls the best skill in the entire game.
Also I actually switched to Ibuki after I realized I could actually perform her comboes using blink. Also figured out a really complicated option select against Akuma Teleport, works against both PPP and KKK and I've never seen anyone use it... Play character for 1 day -> develop new stuff?
Oh the reason I think it's really complicated is because you also need to option select the timer for the neckbreaker
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United States12235 Posts
On October 24 2012 10:31 Shikyo wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2012 05:18 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:
you dunno man. my preferred punish combo right now in some matchups is c.fp > c.fp > super LOL
i've been working on punishing whiffed lariats (among other things) with c.fp > super too I'm of course not good at all but I don't see why you'd save for a super meter with cammy instead of using the skill Justin Wong(and many others) calls the best skill in the entire game. Also I actually switched to Ibuki after I realized I could actually perform her comboes using blink. Also figured out a really complicated option select against Akuma Teleport, works against both PPP and KKK and I've never seen anyone use it... Play character for 1 day -> develop new stuff? Oh the reason I think it's really complicated is because you also need to option select the timer for the neckbreaker
Generally I'm against burning meter on Supers but if it's going to win you the match OR you're playing a character who can easily sit on a life lead and using that Super will give you the life lead OR your opponent also has no meter going into the next round, it can be a significant amount of damage. EX Cannon Strike is of course AMAZING though (+14 on block SUP? I'm assuming that's off a TK CS because otherwise hahahah).
Speaking of burning meter, I 100% disagreed with Mike Ross's use of Super against Jwong in the SF25 tournament when a) it didn't win him the round and b) he still had to go into round 3 with zero meter.
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Melbourne5338 Posts
Shouldn't it be c.fp c.fp ultra for cammy
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Valhalla18444 Posts
that only works on a few characters, and the first c.hp has to be counterhit, not as a punish
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About EVO 2012 and Sako, after watching his games again it definitely was the nerves and not the input lag difference(I would say). He dropped 2 4 frame links. Those are 10000/10000 stuff, even a 2 frame difference shouldn't matter. Not to mention he mostly played on arcades IIRC and that's just a single frame difference, which should even completely be made up for with plinking(If the right frame to hit is number 4, and in arcades its frame 4 and sako plinks, he hits frames 4 and 5, frame 5 is correct for PS3) if you originally had the timing down perfectly. Also I'm pretty sure Sako could have just grinded training mode for a few hours before the tournament to get the new timing of the BnBs down anyway(SJCs are all 4 frame links so shouldn't matter). As he should plink everything the adjustment shouldn't be that difficult, and especially should be better than missing every single combo. I'm 3 months late I know >_>
Also Ibuki's really annoying to practice. Luckily SJC into ultra is practically worthless on her as I do suck at it but those anti-air comboes and resets are still pretty crazy ... Tsumuji loop timing is luckily a lot easier than Evil Ryu's BnB so that's starting to feel pretty comfortable already. Feels a bit stupid to need to input like 12 commands just for her anti-air to match Shoryuken damage but... Oh and there's also the fancy Kunai/command dash reset off an anti-air which would be really sexy to get down properly.
Oh and her ground comboes are really crazy, especially her punish combo with the Kunai extension(which is surprisingly easy because you don't need to tiger knee it) and even tsumuji loops. Also the fact that she doesn't really need to use meter.
Her comboes into ultra feel worthless, as mentioned before. Hit confirm comboes scale the damage heavily and tend to deal about the same amount of damage as one would without using ultra(while building more meter and stun) and her ultra doesn't allow for any sort of followup unlike her Neckbreaker for example. This basically means that SJC ultra is only important when: 1. You do it off a hit confirm 2. You wouldn't kill them without ultra AND you are guaranteed to kill them or get them into Kunai chip range with ultra 3. You don't have enough for a super 4. Your ultra is fully charged 5. It's preferably the final round(builds opponent meter, doesn't build yourself meter). As for straight punishes, raw ultra or j.HP -> ultra seem to deal similiar damage to a SJC ultra combo. This is why I'm leaning towards ultra 1 as Ultra 2 is really difficult to use on reaction vs fireball(And they shouldn't throw any anyway because of EX Necbreaker) and because I honestly can't find a reason to use ultra 2 assuming my analysis is accurate.
Kind of surprised she's not considered a top tier character, having 370+ damage meterless punish comboes into hard knockdown on nearly all the cast, 250+ damage into hard knockdown comboes off any hit confirm(even crouch tech) against almost the whole cast, 420+ damage comboes on the whole cast off a jumpin(or say, dodging a SPD), 300 damage comboes into hard knockdown off her overhead... All meterless and into the (second-)best okizeme in the game. Then of course add her super which she can get fully off any anti-air(for a 450~dmg combo) or hitconfirm or punish(for 500+ dmg combo)...
I guess her defense is pretty weak sure but I still don't think her footsies are that bad at all, and Tsumuji is really good for blockstrings. I guess she doesn't have a divekick but her Kunai can almost do the same thing(make an antiair normal whiff into punish combo). Oh and of course easy unblockables on many characters The lack of a good reversal is kind of worrying, then again Ibuki should be able to save the 3 bars for a FADC Kazekiri which is allright but not amazing, and she can of course combo heavily off one of those as well if it does land.
Then again maybe it's all theory because I don't see even Sako do her optimal comboes all the time but I'll try my best. At least her hit confirms are far easier than Evil Ryus and need 0 meter and as all HJCs are 4 frame links they shouldn't really be a problem either after a while. I also really like finding things like her Kara Reida being able to punish a blocked even a spaced Oni Demon Palm. Also realizing that one should use ultra 1 instead of 2 should also help alot with my reversal game, being able to punish every single thing worse than -2 on block(something she usually doesn't have an answer to)... Really exciting.
On October 24 2012 11:21 Excalibur_Z wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2012 10:31 Shikyo wrote:On October 24 2012 05:18 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:
you dunno man. my preferred punish combo right now in some matchups is c.fp > c.fp > super LOL
i've been working on punishing whiffed lariats (among other things) with c.fp > super too I'm of course not good at all but I don't see why you'd save for a super meter with cammy instead of using the skill Justin Wong(and many others) calls the best skill in the entire game. Also I actually switched to Ibuki after I realized I could actually perform her comboes using blink. Also figured out a really complicated option select against Akuma Teleport, works against both PPP and KKK and I've never seen anyone use it... Play character for 1 day -> develop new stuff? Oh the reason I think it's really complicated is because you also need to option select the timer for the neckbreaker Generally I'm against burning meter on Supers but if it's going to win you the match OR you're playing a character who can easily sit on a life lead and using that Super will give you the life lead OR your opponent also has no meter going into the next round, it can be a significant amount of damage. EX Cannon Strike is of course AMAZING though (+14 on block SUP? I'm assuming that's off a TK CS because otherwise hahahah). Speaking of burning meter, I 100% disagreed with Mike Ross's use of Super against Jwong in the SF25 tournament when a) it didn't win him the round and b) he still had to go into round 3 with zero meter.
If you do have super on Cammy using it is situational of course, I just don't really see... How your gameplay can possibly lead into you having full super gauge. EX Divekick just feels so essential in almost every situation. The frame advantage on hit is such that she can infinite with them if she has an unlimited super meter, who thought of this stuff?
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Playing against Ibuki makes me cry tears of rage.
Anyway I don't think I've ever actually posted in this thread. Long time SF player here. Mainly use Sagat/Deejay/Guile/Rose in SF4. I wouldn't say I'm very good though. 2200'ish BP player.
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Valhalla18444 Posts
leaving for calgary in ~6 hours... jitters a bit now lol
edit: shikyo you don't always need EX dive. cammy also has this thing called 'footsies' that she can convert damage off of. and none of my setups on knockdown require meter for a super ambiguous meaty divekick
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United States12235 Posts
On October 26 2012 01:33 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:
leaving for calgary in ~6 hours... jitters a bit now lol
edit: shikyo you don't always need EX dive. cammy also has this thing called 'footsies' that she can convert damage off of. and none of my setups on knockdown require meter for a super ambiguous meaty divekick
Who are you going to be playing at the tournament? (there is a right answer, choose wisely)
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Valhalla18444 Posts
Cammy, Sakura vs Gief/Juri/Hawk/Bison
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I just dropped in to say that I suck balls at this game and never have time to play, but I freaking LOVE watching SSF4:AE games and tourneys. My current addiction is Bullcat's Gouken, since Gouken is BAD ASS cool.
I have a hard time watching stuff like MVC (too chaotic) or KoF (I don't have as much childhood attachment to the characters) but I can watch SSF4 for days!
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On October 26 2012 02:26 mikedebo wrote:
I just dropped in to say that I suck balls at this game and never have time to play, but I freaking LOVE watching SSF4:AE games and tourneys. My current addiction is Bullcat's Gouken, since Gouken is BAD ASS cool.
I have a hard time watching stuff like MVC (too chaotic) or KoF (I don't have as much childhood attachment to the characters) but I can watch SSF4 for days!
Then you are in luck! Canada Cup this weekend will have days worth of SSF4 between the singles tournament and the regional 5v5s.
FS, sak vs geif? Didn't you have a pocket chun to use for that matchup, or does sakura do well enough to not bother with it?
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Valhalla18444 Posts
also shikyo what the fuck ibuki's sjc ultra is worthless? WHat??
anyway as always you are too concerned with numbers. 'ibuki can do x damage, so can y top tier, therefore ibuki should be top tier as well because she has a vortex' or whatever you said. game doesn't work like that lol.
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Wait, Cammy/Juri is Juri favored? Well fuck me, I'm the king of the scrubs, especially since a guy I endless with now and then subs Hawk and buttrapes me too. Already knew how super bad I was for that, didn't realize I was double super bad.
GL FakeSteve
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On October 26 2012 02:34 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:
also shikyo what the fuck ibuki's sjc ultra is worthless? WHat??
anyway as always you are too concerned with numbers. 'ibuki can do x damage, so can y top tier, therefore ibuki should be top tier as well because she has a vortex' or whatever you said. game doesn't work like that lol.
Not exactly useless, just I'm not sure if it's worth picking over U1. Basically in punish scenarios it always does less dmg even with SJC so we're left with hit confirming in which case it's around 100 more dmg than BnB with zero stun, super, or okizeme. So it works as a finisher like that. Still, you can't reversal with ultra2 because even jab trades with it, you can't use it as an anti-air, etc. Anti-fireball works but ex-neckbreaker tends to make them not want to throw fireballs anyway. It's good for long distance punishes though.
Also yeah I know the game doesn't work that way, though I'm pretty sure that tier lists and matchup charts don't take into account Ibukis 370 damage meterless punish comboes because almost no one does that.
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Valhalla18444 Posts
lol...
trumpet, yeah I got a pocket chun but she's not great. I know the Gief matchup with Sakura very well and it's not as close to 6-4 in Gief's favor as the Cammy matchup (i fucking hate playing Gief with cammy... can't believe how lame i have to play)
I'm not good enough at chun vs gief specifically to pick her in that matchup, and cammy destroys the other characters I used to play chun against, so...
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On October 26 2012 03:06 Shikyo wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2012 02:34 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:
also shikyo what the fuck ibuki's sjc ultra is worthless? WHat??
anyway as always you are too concerned with numbers. 'ibuki can do x damage, so can y top tier, therefore ibuki should be top tier as well because she has a vortex' or whatever you said. game doesn't work like that lol. Not exactly useless, just I'm not sure if it's worth picking over U1. Basically in punish scenarios it always does less dmg even with SJC so we're left with hit confirming in which case it's around 100 more dmg than BnB with zero stun, super, or okizeme. So it works as a finisher like that. Still, you can't reversal with ultra2 because even jab trades with it, you can't use it as an anti-air, etc. Anti-fireball works but ex-neckbreaker tends to make them not want to throw fireballs anyway. It's good for long distance punishes though. Also yeah I know the game doesn't work that way, though I'm pretty sure that tier lists and matchup charts don't take into account Ibukis 370 damage meterless punish comboes because almost no one does that.
Shikyo I have a question.
How does a Sagat player successfully deal against Ibuki? Since you probably play against them from time to time, can you tell me what your weaknesses are against Sagat? Or whats in Sagat's best interest.
Personally I just get destroyed by every Ibuki I play. I think it's a really hard match up for Sagat, but maybe I'm just playing like trash. If possible I try to use Dee Jay against her.
Still though it's very annoying
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The most common reason why people pick U2 over U1 is because you can combo off U2. Not exactly the best in major damage. but its guaranteed if your execution is good and you're not reliant on people making a mistake to hit your Ultra. Punish ultras can make the opponent go "I should play safe" and soup up their defense while combo'd ultras, they can't really prepare for, and hell, if you count Ibuki/viper/cammy type characters, it gives them another problem to worry about.
Of course, I haven't followed 2012 in a very long time. But usually, guaranteed damage is better in the long run since you're not relying on the opponent to create your damage opportunities for you.
Meh, I'm having a hard time explaining, too pissed at Dota2 matchmaking + its 5:30am here. Good luck steve!
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We need updates from the floor!!! 
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Yeah I really guess it's just the guaranteed damage thingy. Ultra 2 indeed could be the difference between finishing the round and not finishing it ... Just well, dunno, I've seen so many Ibukis sit on full super meter and SJC into ultra2 when a combo into Super would deal more damage anyway. Maybe I'm overrating the reversal, antiair and option select possibilities of ultra 1, who knows. I think picking it should at least depend on the matchup instead of being auto-ultra2 like it seems to be for every Ibuki.
Also going to play live finally the day after tomorrow, must get my execution ready for it >_< It should be so nice, there's many good players who I can annoy with questions and maybe I'll actually learn to play midrange somewhat. Currently I'm just option select-poking and that goes really well when it works but then I don't react to jumpins in time(Even though I expect them, what the hell is wrong with me? -_-)
Also I'm getting Tsumuji loop already really consistently, happy happy ^_^ Or well that's kind of lying, I just get the 1 frame link consistently, I drop the 4 frame link and the special cancel pretty often though... What the hell? Why does the placement of my execution mistakes always make no sense?
About Sagat, I just switched to Ibuki so I don't really know ... But you can reaction punish all his fireballs from midscreen with EX-Neckbreaker if you spend like an hour in the training mode practicing reactions against fireballs. So don't throw fireballs at midrange at least without feints. Almost fullmap is safe, and too close to react is safe as well(With feints) Also she can double Tsumuji loop him which means million billion damage. I guess you could mash DP through it hoping they drop but yeah.
Some things though, after EX Neckbreaker the common ambiguous MK command dash -> forward jump -> j.LK hits Sagat to the front even though it looks like a crossup. Also here you need to look at their feet. Walk forward a bit = crossup, don't walk forward = not a crossup. With Neckbreaker walk forward about 0.5 steps or so = crossup, walk forward less = not crossup. If they use the walk forward + LK safe jump timing it's not a crossup. If they do that as a crossup you can DP it or dash forward or whatever because it's too late.
The normal safe jump Neckbreaker -> b.MP -> jump attack doesn't work against Sagat because he wakes up too late(so the safejump misses him). So if you see them do that you know they're going to whiff the jump attack and can do whatever you like. If they know about cr.MK safejump against Sagat though this paragraph is useless.
Against Kunai Vortex if it's not perfectly timed you can autocorrect DP it easily. If they do time it perfectly, reversal LP DP. It puts you airborne so the kunai hits you while you're in the air and you are sent down on a soft knockdown juggle, effectively escaping the vortex. That's sagat-specific, you can also focus-dash it if you like.
Again I can't really say what to actually do in the matchup but here's how to escape most of her stuff(If the player knows what they're doing they can get around these countermeasures but most Ibukis just autopilot and those you destroy)
That's mostly theory by the way, I play against terrible players so my own sagat games seem to be wait until tiger shot -> EX Neckbreaker -> Kunai Vortex until they escape(if they are terrible they never will) -> repeat. They also always give you tiger shots to EX-Neckbreaker so I don't even need to think about footsies. So I really don't know much about the actual matchup. (And against the rare good sagat players I of course have no idea how to play. Tiger Knee is punishable by Ultra2 though so don't do that)
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EPT
