On May 18 2011 11:19 udgnim wrote: that Tribes video just looks like a whole lot of long range air rockets. if that was the pinnacle of Tribes skill, I have no idea why you think Tribes skill cap is higher than BW's.
I don't think you understand
all of those shots are considered sure shots in Tribes, read my post about how the projectiles in Tribes actually inherit the players velocity and there is much more prediction needed.
Imagine that target is actually 50x farther away, and you have to lead it by 8 seconds, and calculate how your movement will effect the "rocket projectile"'s path.
Also the terrain is never flat, and wherever you land will determine where you go next if you want to keep your speed. so you aren't just "shooting" someone, you also have to chase them and keep up to speed. While trying to land shots that take years of practice to even begin to hit sometimes. etc
There was actually a T2 player that got into the quake pro scene (painkiller at the time?) and was making good money on some big money tournament series.
Look, i appreciate the gameplay of Tribes. However in the grand scheme of things, its a slow game. Look at the QuakeWorld video i posted, there is no comparison in the speed of aiming, speed of acrobatics, speed of alteration of map control mechanics. Therefore, while there are concepts that perhaps make air rockets hard like galilean speed addition, it is lacking in other departments. See the criticism of CS in regard of tactics. Due to the landscape of Tribes the same argument applies.
The fact of the matter is, people coming from other first person shooters cant keep up when they try QuakeWorld. Its way too fast. The speed amplifies every aspect of the game, it needs gamers to turbocharge themselves.
Now about the air mechanics of Tribes. You could compare that to perhaps the concing of TeamFortress and TeamFortressClassic. A difficult and developed art in itself, reliant on percise timings. However the gameplay remains slow despite those things.
On May 18 2011 19:07 Irratonalys wrote: without a damn question , Touhou. your all just too young to have played it.
on insane , all the dots kill you , and they move in a complex series of changing patterns you have to remember and control perfectly to survive.
this is a video of a bossfight. remember , everything kills you:
Really, a shmup? When you've managed to clear the hardest levels, what's left to do? Without a damn question a shmup does not have the highest skill cap out of any game, however hard they might be.
Really, a shmup? When you've managed to clear the hardest levels, what's left to do? Without a damn question a shmup does not have the highest skill cap out of any game, however hard they might be.
then go and try beating the highscores
your looking at years of practice to maybe get in the top thousand (non asian worldwide)
Really, a shmup? When you've managed to clear the hardest levels, what's left to do? Without a damn question a shmup does not have the highest skill cap out of any game, however hard they might be.
then go and try beating the highscores
your looking at years of practice to maybe get in the top thousand (non asian worldwide)
Well, sure. But using that as a basis pretty much any arcade game ever can be called the game with the "highest skillcap". I'm not denying you need skill to clear them (I know how well I'd do..), just can't see how the skillcap is higher in a shmup which relies highly on trial & error and learning what X and Y does in pattern Z can compare to something like BW or Quake.
All this based on minimal experience with Touhou, but from what I've gathered it's just a shmup that's infinitely harder than other shmups?
Games like Eve, Starknights, and Seven Kingdoms have you control an empire (well eve only does it if you're like the head of a corporation). There's always a lot to learn in them. They're not as fast or reflex demanding as say some other games, but you have to manage your economy better than most stock traders manage their stocks in order to do well at them.
Managing your economy necessitated handling dozens of planets, each providing different raw resources, which would go to different factories to be produced into intermediate materals, which would then go to different planets and factories to be built into useable things for the construction of your fleets.
If we're going to go by difficulty of winning, well then Touhou is pretty hard, as would chess against a really good AI. If you're going to go by pure mechanics then games like multitask 2 (flash game) are almost impossible to do well in because there's a limit to how many hands and how much attention one can divide up into different tasks.
There are games that are just difficult to understand. As with any multiplayer game, it's been said that it's always possible to improve and to get better so no multiplayer game really has a skillcap, but I think more complex games have more to learn that can let good players continue to improve their skill levels a lot even after investing a hundred hours into the game.
I can only speak for fighting games because those are the only games ive competed in high level tournaments for.
id say melee's execution and spacing exceed VF, but VF mixups and mindgames are superior. TTT movement and execution is on another level depending on the team.
In general, most of the older fighters require more skill to be a top player than their newer iterations.
I see that a lot of folks brought up WOW. I got glad in season 2, but never raided very much. WOW arena was a joke compared to most of these other games. It was fun, but I couldn't confidently say it took a lot of talent.
On May 18 2011 18:35 Sh0guni wrote: I gotta say that after getting into fighting games I realized what kind of practice it takes to be in the top level. I'm not even near that level myself but every time I see a pro do a sick 1-frame link, let alone 3 of them (Uryo sakura anyone??) in a grand final it just amazes me.
Also how the hell can they tech air throws by reaction in mvc3? I don't get it.
I don't think DotA had the highest learning curve, but boy was that game hard to get good at. Fail a mid and get flamed for the rest of your life jesus.
Almost no one techs throws by reaction in super4 or mvc3 (can't speak to other games). The window is something like 10 frames = 1/6 of a second. Most of the time, it's an option select (hit throw + punch, it will tech if opp tries to throw you and punch if they don't) or it's a situation where you expect a throw (opp jumps in, you block, opp will punch 0-2 times to continue block string and then throw you, you have to block the hits and tech the throw, trying to tech early will get you punched, trying to tech late will get you thrown). It's highly read-based, you just try to input at at timing that will cover the most bases.
1-frame links can become 2-frame links in certain games with good button technique. In super4, for example, if you hit LP and MP at almost the same time, you'll get MP and LPMP 1 frame apart, and MP takes priority over LP so essentially you've inputted MP in 2 consecutive frames (this is called plinking).
But yeah, practice. I like fighters because there's a lot of variety in play style and creativity (especially in the spur of the moment) since it's more about beating your opponent (reading, tricking, confusing, etc) than about executing perfectly against a range of possibilities from your opponent (for example, in starcraft games where having a good BO is essential and most players aren't too distinct because everyone goes 1rax FE --> rax --> tanks/medivac or something).
still play ut99 ctf instagib pubs...that game has in general has always been pretty demanding. easy to pub stomp but the leagues and when pros play in the pubs its scary.
ut mod called tactical ops...nobody probably has played it haha...been playing that for 10+ years.
I don't think mvc3 has a very high skill cap. We found full life combos on day 1 and xfactor is a scrub mechanic like rage in tekken6. Put in so new players will have a better chance against good opponents.
The game is fun as hell but there's no reason to play it over 2 imo.
Really, a shmup? When you've managed to clear the hardest levels, what's left to do? Without a damn question a shmup does not have the highest skill cap out of any game, however hard they might be.
Inclined to agree. Sure it takes a steady hand but with enough memorization you can beat the whole thing (not saying I could or I have). Any game that could qualify for "highest skill cap" would definitely have to be multiplayer simply because of the sheer number of situations you will be presented which will require skill to come out on top.
Brood War is definitely up there in terms of skill cap. You could practice for months and months non stop and still be the bottom of the barrel skill-wise.
If not BW than probably Bloodline Champions. That game is just silly with the amount of skill required.
In RTS games, the more cumbersome and antiquated the UI is, the higher the skill cap. BW has a higher skill cap because grouping is limited, waypoints are not dynamic, units have terrible pathfinding and need to be babysitted to the maximum and there is no intelligent spellcasting option. Really, if you could make a game with BW's macro, WC3's micro and WC2's inteface, you would have an infinite skill cap. Of course, it would be a terrible game.
When it comes to games I've also enjoyed UT2004, it's a bit slower than Q3 but I like the mechanics and weapons in it a lot more. Also, CTF is a blast in this one.
Really most obviously SC:BW over than any other game.
Single Player games cannot compete, because they do have a defined skill cap. Only Multiplayer games difficulty can scale with other players. Out of multiplayer games, SC:BW has the very best players and even those are not really able to play it 100% flawless (or every mirror between top players would end as a draw). There are so many things which every player still has to improve...
This might be true for almost every multiplayer game. but I think that skill still plays a slightly more crucial role in Broodwar because it almost doesn't happen that a player is "maxed out" at a partial skill level (be it micro, macro, tactics).
On May 20 2011 01:25 teekesselchen wrote: Really most obviously SC:BW over than any other game.
Single Player games cannot compete, because they do have a defined skill cap. Only Multiplayer games difficulty can scale with other players. Out of multiplayer games, SC:BW has the very best players and even those are not really able to play it 100% flawless (or every mirror between top players would end as a draw). There are so many things which every player still has to improve...
This might be true for almost every multiplayer game. but I think that skill still plays a slightly more crucial role in Broodwar because it almost doesn't happen that a player is "maxed out" at a partial skill level (be it micro, macro, tactics).
I'd like to disagree here, a lot of the game's outcome is pretty highly dependant on the map. Maps usually favor one race over another (I don't believe I've seen a map where win ratios would be more or less equal across the board) and it doesn't let players always play to their full potential. If there would be a map, fair for every race and every playstyle we would have a good gauge to measure up skillcap and potential. But in the current environment when maps not only favor certain races but also force you into a specific kind of game (huge macro maps for example, where players who do best in the early-mid game with some crazy rushes or timing attacks) instead of letting you play whatever you choose without punishing you for it, you don't get to see what this game could really be like.
Korean pro's don't even think much when playing. They practice so much that the most of the game becomes more or less instinctive mechanical reactions for them, rather than conscious act.
@ QuakeWorld: Dunno man, seems things have changed a bit. When I was playing Quake back in the days having the colours set like that (gamma settings with no shadows and shining players) was forbidden.
On May 20 2011 01:25 teekesselchen wrote: Really most obviously SC:BW over than any other game.
Single Player games cannot compete, because they do have a defined skill cap. Only Multiplayer games difficulty can scale with other players. Out of multiplayer games, SC:BW has the very best players and even those are not really able to play it 100% flawless (or every mirror between top players would end as a draw). There are so many things which every player still has to improve...
This might be true for almost every multiplayer game. but I think that skill still plays a slightly more crucial role in Broodwar because it almost doesn't happen that a player is "maxed out" at a partial skill level (be it micro, macro, tactics).
I'd like to disagree here, a lot of the game's outcome is pretty highly dependant on the map. Maps usually favor one race over another (I don't believe I've seen a map where win ratios would be more or less equal across the board) and it doesn't let players always play to their full potential. If there would be a map, fair for every race and every playstyle we would have a good gauge to measure up skillcap and potential. But in the current environment when maps not only favor certain races but also force you into a specific kind of game (huge macro maps for example, where players who do best in the early-mid game with some crazy rushes or timing attacks) instead of letting you play whatever you choose without punishing you for it, you don't get to see what this game could really be like.
wouldn't the variety of maps add to the skillcap because it forces the player to be adaptable and not rely on their preferred way of playing. Maps being imbalanced toward races sucks, but maps being imbalanced toward playstyles is actually a good thing in my opinion.
On May 20 2011 01:25 teekesselchen wrote: Really most obviously SC:BW over than any other game.
Single Player games cannot compete, because they do have a defined skill cap. Only Multiplayer games difficulty can scale with other players. Out of multiplayer games, SC:BW has the very best players and even those are not really able to play it 100% flawless (or every mirror between top players would end as a draw). There are so many things which every player still has to improve...
This might be true for almost every multiplayer game. but I think that skill still plays a slightly more crucial role in Broodwar because it almost doesn't happen that a player is "maxed out" at a partial skill level (be it micro, macro, tactics).
Agreed...plus luck is less of a factor in BW than any other game. It's pretty much 100% based on skill and player ability. If a pretty good but not pro level player played 1000 games against Flash/Jaedong he would loose all 1000 of them badly. But in an FPS for example, if that same caliber player player 1000 rounds against fatality or a decent team played against the best CS team they could still take a handful of rounds due to lucky shots.
EPT![[image loading]](http://images.wikia.com/touhou/de/images/4/4a/EOSD_screen.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/W87BS.jpg)
