i'm surprised for so many mentions of gunz.. yeah there was some mashing involved but it doesn't even dominate in that aspect of skill imho, not when you compare it to, say, ssbm. the main difference in gunz is that the key sequences were quite loose on timing as long as the order was correct (in other words generally the faster you do it, the better), and there's basically no punishment for doing something too fast (some exceptions but not really relevant in actual gameplay)
compare this to ssbm which not only has the mashing aspect of gunz, but a HUGE emphasis on timing, where if you do something too slow (just like gunz) it wont work, but also if you do something too fast, it won't work either (like teching too early, attempting to ff too early, attempting to Lcancel too early and on and on) i dunno, i could never really get the hang of ssbm the way i did gunz, and i suspect that is primarily why. much <3 to ssbm, in terms of technical skill i'm quite certain it's up there among the best.
On May 17 2011 04:32 DaBoxX wrote: I think playing Arena at highest lvl in WoW is the same as grandmaster in SC2.
No, just no.
While the above post provides good insight about end game PvE, I'll talk about PvP here.
I have multiple rank 1's so I am definitely entitled to talk about this. Not Gladiator mind you. Gladiator is the top 0.5% and I can assure you, that is infinitely times easier than Master in SC2 ( top 2%). Simply put, anyone that isn't medically retarded can get Gladiator if they want to.
WoW pvp, high end or not, is a joke and can never be taken seriously. You might think PvP might bring some form of randomness, but it's not. That's why it's called "scripted pvp", just like how raid bosses are scripted. The entire high end PvP core is based on 4 things.
1. Exchanging cooldowns (very little skill)
2. Counter comping (no skill)
3. Queue dodging (no skill)
4. Win trading (no skill)
WoW has absolutely one of the lowest skill caps in the world, and 99.99% of the people playing are very, very stupid. That is why top 0.5% means absolutely nothing at all.
On May 17 2011 04:32 DaBoxX wrote: I think playing Arena at highest lvl in WoW is the same as grandmaster in SC2.
No, just no.
While the above post provides good insight about end game PvE, I'll talk about PvP here.
I have multiple rank 1's so I am definitely entitled to talk about this. Not Gladiator mind you. Gladiator is the top 0.5% and I can assure you, that is infinitely times easier than Master in SC2 ( top 2%). Simply put, anyone that isn't medically retarded can get Gladiator if they want to.
WoW pvp, high end or not, is a joke and can never be taken seriously. You might think PvP might bring some form of randomness, but it's not. That's why it's called "scripted pvp", just like how raid bosses are scripted. The entire high end PvP core is based on 4 things.
1. Exchanging cooldowns (very little skill)
2. Counter comping (no skill)
3. Queue dodging (no skill)
4. Win trading (no skill)
WoW has absolutely one of the lowest skill caps in the world, and 99.99% of the people playing are very, very stupid. That is why top 0.5% means absolutely nothing at all.
Do you realize that only the 0.5% top SC2 players make it entertaining? I agree that WoW has a very small skill cap, but you can't just throw random facts, specially the 4th one. A lot of people win trade in SC2 but no one talks about it, because it's not the main frame. You have to compare MLG WoW Arenas to GSL. And yes, I agree that GSL requires MUCH more skill, but WoW STILL requires skill. Read "Exchange Cooldowns" as a "Blink Stalker v Blink Stalker micro".
My vote goes to chess personally. Having played for over 10 years and barely making it over 2000 Fide, it was an extremely fun and complex game. I'm sure as far as video games go, Broodwar takes the cake. I think something to be noted is what sort of effects do patches have on video games in terms of skill ceilings?
On May 17 2011 04:32 DaBoxX wrote: I think playing Arena at highest lvl in WoW is the same as grandmaster in SC2.
No, just no.
While the above post provides good insight about end game PvE, I'll talk about PvP here.
I have multiple rank 1's so I am definitely entitled to talk about this. Not Gladiator mind you. Gladiator is the top 0.5% and I can assure you, that is infinitely times easier than Master in SC2 ( top 2%). Simply put, anyone that isn't medically retarded can get Gladiator if they want to.
WoW pvp, high end or not, is a joke and can never be taken seriously. You might think PvP might bring some form of randomness, but it's not. That's why it's called "scripted pvp", just like how raid bosses are scripted. The entire high end PvP core is based on 4 things.
1. Exchanging cooldowns (very little skill)
2. Counter comping (no skill)
3. Queue dodging (no skill)
4. Win trading (no skill)
WoW has absolutely one of the lowest skill caps in the world, and 99.99% of the people playing are very, very stupid. That is why top 0.5% means absolutely nothing at all.
Do you realize that only the 0.5% top SC2 players make it entertaining? I agree that WoW has a very small skill cap, but you can't just throw random facts, specially the 4th one. A lot of people win trade in SC2 but no one talks about it, because it's not the main frame. You have to compare MLG WoW Arenas to GSL. And yes, I agree that GSL requires MUCH more skill, but WoW STILL requires skill. Read "Exchange Cooldowns" as a "Blink Stalker v Blink Stalker micro".
I suppose "forcing" cooldowns is a better word. When played at the highest level, whichever team that runs out of cooldowns first loses, and often times it is luck or RNG that determines that, not skill that can be practiced for hours. Win trading is also blatantly more common and accepted in WoW arenas than in SC2.
Skillwise, WoW does not compare to starcraft simply because you are responding to preset happenings(PvE, I never really got into PvP). Especially with the myriad addons available to show points at which you should pop CD's to maximize damage, I'd have to say the only positions in WoW PvE that required skill were 1. Raid leading - insane social skills/not sucking/organization required 2. Main tanking, sometimes offtank - Needs to maintain full awareness of himself, and where he is positioning the dps along with some other stuff. 3. Healing - heroic anub'arak and possibly heroic saurfang. Anuba'rak was a heart attack waiting to happen for a healer - 90% of the raid flashing red on my grid X.x Saurfang was just praying the boss died before a guy got gibbed between heals.
On May 17 2011 16:54 Amui wrote: Broodwar IMO is one of the highest skill caps.
Skillwise, WoW does not compare to starcraft simply because you are responding to preset happenings(PvE, I never really got into PvP). Especially with the myriad addons available to show points at which you should pop CD's to maximize damage, I'd have to say the only positions in WoW PvE that required skill were 1. Raid leading - insane social skills/not sucking/organization required 2. Main tanking, sometimes offtank - Needs to maintain full awareness of himself, and where he is positioning the dps along with some other stuff. 3. Healing - heroic anub'arak and possibly heroic saurfang. Anuba'rak was a heart attack waiting to happen for a healer - 90% of the raid flashing red on my grid X.x Saurfang was just praying the boss died before a guy got gibbed between heals.
Just a quick comment on the healing - I had a holy pally during WotLK. And I must say, it wasn't that difficult.
The strategy game with the highest mental skillcap is chess, but if mechanical skill is also a factor, Starcraft: Brood War. Too many people don't appreciate how difficult chess actually is!!
I'm actually pleasantly surprised at the respect dota has here - an awful lot of other communities have bashed it citing lack of apm needs and saying "theres no apm, there's no skill" when it's clearly the interactions that has a massive effect.
It's all about the teamwork and understanding of intent in dota - the whole team needs to work as one, to intrinsically understand what everyone is going to be doing at any point, to see the same opportunities and weaknesses, which are often only open for less than a second, and take them.
There's still obviously mechanical skill differences, but it is, as someone said early, absolutely about decision making and reading the game that makes a difference. Understanding how the game's going to flow, where and when people are likely to be and what they're doing is huge.
Elastomania (previosly Action Supercross) has a great skill cap. The top players have such timings, control and reactions that it's ridiculous! I played the game for a while quite serious and was never ever able to execute some of the "pro players" times or moves. To break a record you have to play perfect and every key stroke matters.
On May 12 2011 08:25 shawster wrote: skill is very vague. the skillcap can never be reached in a game that is player vs player because there is always a way to win. there is always a way to one up an opponent if the game is meant to be balanced.
i think you should rename this mechanical/technical skill cap, not skillcap.
Well said.
Another thing that deserves mention is that the more people playing the more games will be played therefore the better the skill level will be. For instance I was the #1 player in one of the AOE games and a couple C&C games. I think i was something like 400-10, but it was due to lack of competition. It had nothing to do with me being amazing, there just wasn't very many good players playing.
This population skillcap is one of the reasons getting merc gladiator in wow is difficult despite people claiming it's "easy". The fact is wow is very difficult because so many people play it and 99.999% of the people saying getting merc glad is easy haven't even gotten regular glad.
On May 17 2011 16:54 Amui wrote: Broodwar IMO is one of the highest skill caps.
Skillwise, WoW does not compare to starcraft simply because you are responding to preset happenings(PvE, I never really got into PvP). Especially with the myriad addons available to show points at which you should pop CD's to maximize damage, I'd have to say the only positions in WoW PvE that required skill were 1. Raid leading - insane social skills/not sucking/organization required 2. Main tanking, sometimes offtank - Needs to maintain full awareness of himself, and where he is positioning the dps along with some other stuff. 3. Healing - heroic anub'arak and possibly heroic saurfang. Anuba'rak was a heart attack waiting to happen for a healer - 90% of the raid flashing red on my grid X.x Saurfang was just praying the boss died before a guy got gibbed between heals.
Just a quick comment on the healing - I had a holy pally during WotLK. And I must say, it wasn't that difficult.
i dont know but watching my bro PVEer main tank during WOTLK, it seemed kinda easy,lol.(he did ICC ,Ulduar, Tourny etc) And he was kind of a noob. He clicked some spells,despite me advising him to use better keybind, Ya, he gets the job done most of the time (Most of the time, the wipes happen cos of terribad raiders)
On May 17 2011 16:03 mastergriggy wrote: My vote goes to chess personally. Having played for over 10 years and barely making it over 2000 Fide, it was an extremely fun and complex game. I'm sure as far as video games go, Broodwar takes the cake. I think something to be noted is what sort of effects do patches have on video games in terms of skill ceilings?
Patches generally lower skill ceilings. Broodwar example : protoss being able to queue interceptors or scarabs from a group of carriers or reavers instead of having to do each one seperately.Came in very early on , 1.03 or 4.Mindless clicking but the extra mechanics make it "higher cap"
SC2 example : numerous , but what about requiring supply depot before barracks thus removing T openings.Same with removing void speed and khaydarin amulet , overenthusiastic reaper nerf etc etc all reduces potential strategies.Like i say too many to mention.Still , the new units coming out in the expansions could boost the skill cap a little , we will see.
On May 17 2011 16:03 mastergriggy wrote: My vote goes to chess personally. Having played for over 10 years and barely making it over 2000 Fide, it was an extremely fun and complex game. I'm sure as far as video games go, Broodwar takes the cake. I think something to be noted is what sort of effects do patches have on video games in terms of skill ceilings?
Patches generally lower skill ceilings. Broodwar example : protoss being able to queue interceptors or scarabs from a group of carriers or reavers instead of having to do each one seperately.Came in very early on , 1.03 or 4.Mindless clicking but the extra mechanics make it "higher cap"
SC2 example : numerous , but what about requiring supply depot before barracks thus removing T openings.Same with removing void speed and khaydarin amulet , overenthusiastic reaper nerf etc etc all reduces potential strategies.Like i say too many to mention.Still , the new units coming out in the expansions could boost the skill cap a little , we will see.
Yeah. And controlling a high macro game in warcraft 2? Maximum 8 units in group, no control groups, no rally points or production que in buildings. Sometimes i become nostalgic to these things and think, BroodWar wouldve been a better game if they had ramped up the macro difficulty a little. That Warcraft 2 vibe is really something. Guys like BeSt seem amazing with their macro in BW, think how incredible they would be if macro was as hard as it is in WC2. And terran would require 500 apm to control, lol :p
On May 17 2011 15:06 JeeJee wrote: i'm surprised for so many mentions of gunz.. yeah there was some mashing involved but it doesn't even dominate in that aspect of skill imho, not when you compare it to, say, ssbm. the main difference in gunz is that the key sequences were quite loose on timing as long as the order was correct (in other words generally the faster you do it, the better), and there's basically no punishment for doing something too fast (some exceptions but not really relevant in actual gameplay)
compare this to ssbm which not only has the mashing aspect of gunz, but a HUGE emphasis on timing, where if you do something too slow (just like gunz) it wont work, but also if you do something too fast, it won't work either (like teching too early, attempting to ff too early, attempting to Lcancel too early and on and on) i dunno, i could never really get the hang of ssbm the way i did gunz, and i suspect that is primarily why. much <3 to ssbm, in terms of technical skill i'm quite certain it's up there among the best.
I'm surprised people mention SSBM and no one mentions Virtua Fighter series... It's all about timing and positioning and some of the moves are ridiculously hard (release block after 1/60 second to launch a quick elbow). On top of that it's in 3D, different characters have different mass, which makes some of them more or less prone to juggling etc.
I mean, look at the player's input in this training session. How much you need to mash and time your stuff to get even a 3 hit combo...
On May 17 2011 20:58 archonOOid wrote: Elastomania (previosly Action Supercross) has a great skill cap. The top players have such timings, control and reactions that it's ridiculous! I played the game for a while quite serious and was never ever able to execute some of the "pro players" times or moves. To break a record you have to play perfect and every key stroke matters.
btw: can someone explain how to use the embedded link?
Yeah, I totally agree, everyone should play Elastomania for a few hours(break single player), then review a replaypack from http://www.moposite.com of those same levels smashed by pros. Mind-boggling.
On May 17 2011 20:58 archonOOid wrote: Elastomania (previosly Action Supercross) has a great skill cap. The top players have such timings, control and reactions that it's ridiculous! I played the game for a while quite serious and was never ever able to execute some of the "pro players" times or moves. To break a record you have to play perfect and every key stroke matters.
btw: can someone explain how to use the embedded link?
Yeah, I totally agree, everyone should play Elastomania for a few hours(break single player), then review a replaypack from http://www.moposite.com of those same levels smashed by pros. Mind-boggling.
I played it for a while and it wasn't that difficult. After like a week of practice I was able to do WR strats, although slightly less perfected. Still, I wouldn't say it's anywhere near some of the most difficult games.
EPT
