EPT+ Show Spoiler +
they are money matches D:
EVO 2011 Tournament Season - Page 111
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broz0rs
United States2294 Posts
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Scribble
2077 Posts
On July 31 2011 17:08 broz0rs wrote: "grudge" matches on the after hour stream right now. + Show Spoiler + they are money matches D: Hark! Illegal activities? ALERT THE AUTHORITIES! (= | ||
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Trumpet
United States1935 Posts
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/jO2pF.png) lololololol I liked the Ultradavid explanation. One guy bought another dinner, and so the other guy went to get exact change for what the dinner cost to pay him back. They're matching money. lolol | ||
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Zlasher
United States9129 Posts
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Scribble
2077 Posts
On July 31 2011 17:16 Zlasher wrote: They're betting doll-hairs and capcom unity points, maybe even some esports dollars but definitely no MM'ing going on Oh, I see. False alarm! They're just banana-buck matching. | ||
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Mannerheim
766 Posts
On July 31 2011 17:16 Zlasher wrote: They're betting doll-hairs and capcom unity points, maybe even some esports dollars but definitely no MM'ing going on Also Bison dollars. | ||
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Zlasher
United States9129 Posts
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bajabaja
245 Posts
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Scribble
2077 Posts
Edit: Here you go. http://www.ustream.tv/evo2011 | ||
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ShatterStar
United States40 Posts
That being said really the update is coming too soon, usually a game has a longer cycle before an update, but since it's coming anyway, you may as well do some balancing as patches are not near as common for console games (especially since it costs money to put out patches on PSN if I remember correctly, passed the first one, and with Xbox you have to wait for it to be approved) so sometimes you're a bit more progressive than you need be because you know lest something is terribly broken you're not going to get another shot at it for awhile. Capcom hasn't really done balance tweaks via patches, they usually just roll them out with another edition of the game. (They did patch out some unintended things, Fei Long infinite, stuff like that in SF4). Though who knows, times are definitely changing on that front with AE getting a free balance change in the future they may look more at using that method, but if you're doing it all in one go you feel more impetus to try to stay ahead of the curve. | ||
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frogurt
Australia907 Posts
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Scribble
2077 Posts
On July 31 2011 17:40 ShatterStar wrote: Don't forget that UMVC3 is changing some things about the way the systems work, changes to X-Factor, damage normalizations, etc. So those changes may necessitate changes to characters as well--so it may not just be a NERF THIS situation. Like for example the ability to X-Factor in the air changes things about how Phoenix is played and played against fundamentally and could have caused some issues they have found in testing. That being said really the update is coming too soon, usually a game has a longer cycle before an update, but since it's coming anyway, you may as well do some balancing as patches are not near as common for console games (especially since it costs money to put out patches on PSN if I remember correctly, passed the first one, and with Xbox you have to wait for it to be approved) so sometimes you're a bit more progressive than you need be because you know lest something is terribly broken you're not going to get another shot at it for awhile. Capcom hasn't really done balance tweaks via patches, they usually just roll them out with another edition of the game. (They did patch out some unintended things, Fei Long infinite, stuff like that in SF4). Though who knows, times are definitely changing on that front with AE getting a free balance change in the future they may look more at using that method, but if you're doing it all in one go you feel more impetus to try to stay ahead of the curve. They're rolling out an AE balance patch in a few months due to the outcry about the twins. That said, you brought up some valid points. | ||
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acker
United States2958 Posts
On July 31 2011 16:46 Scribble wrote: Individual players are dominant in Marvel. What is your point here? Also, I would argue that racial balance was fairly constant because Blizzard didn't knee-jerk nerf everything just because something felt broken for a short while. I didn't think that it was a very difficult point to understand; individuals can have good and bad win ratios, but balance isn't based on individuals. Balance is based on top players as a group. Every race in Starcraft roughly had this balance, even during the Flash era. Blizzard also allegedly balances in this manner, contrary to what your strawman might suggest. Thankfully, Capcom appears to do game balance this way as well. On July 31 2011 16:46 Scribble wrote: I'd also like to point out that there are as many she-hulks and magnetos as phoenixes in top 8. I'm certain that this isn't the case, unless this isn't the top eight and the site is lying. Also, one Magneto is on a Pheonix team and one She-Hulk is on a Wolverine team, the other character that got beat just as hard with the nerf stick in the current UMVC3 build. http://www.gamezone.com/news/item/evo_2011_update_top_8s_for_day_2 On July 31 2011 16:46 Scribble wrote:Oh yeah, here's another hypothetical: many pro Zergs agree that Zerg needs to be buffed/T and P need to be nerfed. The response I hear all the time is, "give it time and just work to figure out how to solve ZvX." "Many" does not equate "almost everyone". Especially when "many" means "Idra". Incidentally, "almost every", not "many", top players were, in fact, complaining about the Zerg matchups in the not-so-distant past. Blizzard proceeded to make "drastic balance changes" to the ZvP and ZvT matchup. I don't think you'd want many of the changes revoked, just so you could theoretically solve the associated problems yourself. http://starcraft.wikia.com/wiki/StarCraft_II_version_history On July 31 2011 16:46 Scribble wrote: Edit: I just think folks need to chill with the "I don't know what to do and other people better than me agree, so NERF THIS!" attitude. BW and MvC2 have both proven that a game doesn't necessarily need knee-jerk balance changes. They obviously aren't proof that patches aren't EVER necessary, but patience is a virtue, one which today's generation of gamers need to learn to appreciate. If half the effort expended in whining went into solving match-ups we wouldn't need to argue in the first place. Starcraft actually went through two extremely large game overhauls. I've never played MvC2 and can't comment much on it, though I've heard that over half the cast is completely nonviable. When the evidence suggests something is grossly imbalanced and the only argument against it is some sort of nostalgia, things should be changed. If things are changed too much, you can always revert the changes. It's a fairly novel concept, one that didn't exist before widespread internet access, but I don't think it's difficult to understand. Now, I realize that a lot of older people don't like change. But you don't have a decade to solve this out, find new glitches, and pray for a solution. The next version is coming out in three or four months and a lot of current tech is getting "fixed"; if new tech exists, it will be based on unpredictable bugs. So what's got to happen is, quite literally, to take what we know now and apply it to what's being built. Not what we may or may not know theoretically a decade later. I'm not going to claim that it's perfect, but it's the only process that makes sense. | ||
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Necrophantasia
Japan299 Posts
But I have a question. Does anyone know how Kayo Police actually did? I saw two of his matches that he won, but he is not present in the top 32. So, I'm a bit curious to see how he did seeing as how he is regarded as a top tier C.viper in Japan. | ||
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FACENC
United States63 Posts
On July 31 2011 18:52 Necrophantasia wrote: I've been following the streams, but it's been incredibly hard to keep track of individual players without an actual official bracket. But I have a question. Does anyone know how Kayo Police actually did? I saw two of his matches that he won, but he is not present in the top 32. So, I'm a bit curious to see how he did seeing as how he is regarded as a top tier C.viper in Japan. She is not considered a top C.Viper in Japan at all. She isn't even in the top 20 Viper players in Japan. | ||
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Qiang1446
United States92 Posts
anyone know where I can find the recording/vods??? -__-; | ||
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kainzero
United States5211 Posts
On July 31 2011 18:52 Necrophantasia wrote: But I have a question. Does anyone know how Kayo Police actually did? I saw two of his matches that he won, but he is not present in the top 32. So, I'm a bit curious to see how he did seeing as how he is regarded as a top tier C.viper in Japan. she didn't make it out of her pool, iirc | ||
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Scribble
2077 Posts
You're right about my observation about the top 8 character breakdown being off. There's 1 more Phoenix than there are She-hulks, Mags, Akumas, Dantes, and Taskmasters, and just as many Wolverines and Weskers. Also, Idra isn't the only top level Zerg saying that the race still needs help whether it be a direct buff or nerfs to the other 2 races. Nestea has been pretty vocal about the state of the race. You know what the conundrum is with trusting the best of the best when it comes to balance? They're fonts of useful information because they have the deepest understanding of their game[s], but they're also way too invested in performing well to be reliable. You are correct about half the cast of MvC2 being non-viable. Magneto/Storm/Sentinel/Doom/Strider/Psylock and a few others dominate pretty hard and they have for quite some time. If Capcom were to go back and patch MvC2 now, I wouldn't have a problem with it because TIME has proven these characters to be a problem. And that is what it boils down to. Some characters feel broken right now. Iceman felt broken too when he was new. But lo and behold, it turns out that there were strategies and characters much stronger, characters which to this day are the best in the game. If they had nerfed Iceman then, what would it have changed in the long run? Not a damn thing except people who enjoy him would have an even harder time playing him after he got figured out AND more broken characters emerged. The "evidence" you keep dancing around without elaborating on indicates that Phoenix is becoming less of a problem. Like I said, compare Phoenix now to Phoenix a few months ago. A couple of months ago Phoenix players dominated and it took a huge stroke of luck to beat a Phoenix team. Right now though, people have started to figure her out and develop strategies to counter her. She still feels volatile, but you cannot deny that she isn't nearly as much of a threat now as she was and that is with just a few months of figuring her out. Nostalgia isn't fueling my argument. History is. Protoss didn't need to be nerfed because Bisu pioneered a style that revolutionized the race even though it was dominant for some time, Iceman didn't need a nerf because he was dominant for some time, Phoenix doesn't necessarily need a nerf because she's been [increasingly less] dominant for some time. I'm not saying all balance changes are bad, I'm saying that we need TIME for this "evidence," of yours to build. You wouldn't make any sweeping conclusions by polling 500 out of 30 million Americans, and you shouldn't make sweeping conclusions based on a half-year old game. Who knows? Maybe over a few more months Phoenix players will find something new to do with her that makes her untouchable and the nerfs will be justified. Or maybe in a few months people will be able to shut her down so effectively that she's never a viable option again (*cough* Iceman). Knee-jerk reaction balance changes aren't going to help, I promise you that much. Something will always be broken for a period of time. If you just nerf nerf nerf or buff buff buff the moment something seems too good or too bad, then balance will not ever be achieved because you won't be giving anything enough time to figure out whether or not it is a real problem or a short-lived trend of dominance. Again, give it time. That's all I'm saying is give Phoenix, or whatever your balance problem of choice is, enough time to prove that they're a long-term problem instead of just complaining that you don't like how it is right now. Now, I realize that a lot of older people don't like change. Edit: Oh. Shit, can't believe I put that much effort responding to a troll. Well played. | ||
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Mannerheim
766 Posts
The nerfs are coming, and the vast majority of the players welcome them with open arms, just accept it. | ||
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Sirvantes7
United States18 Posts
On July 31 2011 19:26 Scribble wrote: Are you acting intentionally thick? Yes, Blizzard did make drastic balance changes. Yes, Capcom will make drastic balance changes regardless of the outcome of this argument. I'm not trying to convince them not to because they aren't reading this bloody TL thread. My point, to you and everyone moaning about things being too powerful in a game less than 6 months old, is that knee-jerk nerfs aren't necessary. You're right about my observation about the top 8 character breakdown being off. There's 1 more Phoenix than there are She-hulks, Mags, Akumas, Dantes, and Taskmasters, and just as many Wolverines and Weskers. Also, Idra isn't the only top level Zerg saying that the race still needs help whether it be a direct buff or nerfs to the other 2 races. Nestea has been pretty vocal about the state of the race. You know what the conundrum is with trusting the best of the best when it comes to balance? They're fonts of useful information because they have the deepest understanding of their game[s], but they're also way too invested in performing well to be reliable. You are correct about half the cast of MvC2 being non-viable. Magneto/Storm/Sentinel/Doom/Strider/Psylock and a few others dominate pretty hard and they have for quite some time. If Capcom were to go back and patch MvC2 now, I wouldn't have a problem with it because TIME has proven these characters to be a problem. And that is what it boils down to. Some characters feel broken right now. Iceman felt broken too when he was new. But lo and behold, it turns out that there were strategies and characters much stronger, characters which to this day are the best in the game. If they had nerfed Iceman then, what would it have changed in the long run? Not a damn thing except people who enjoy him would have an even harder time playing him after he got figured out AND more broken characters emerged. The "evidence" you keep dancing around without elaborating on indicates that Phoenix is becoming less of a problem. Like I said, compare Phoenix now to Phoenix a few months ago. A couple of months ago Phoenix players dominated and it took a huge stroke of luck to beat a Phoenix team. Right now though, people have started to figure her out and develop strategies to counter her. She still feels volatile, but you cannot deny that she isn't nearly as much of a threat now as she was and that is with just a few months of figuring her out. Nostalgia isn't fueling my argument. History is. Protoss didn't need to be nerfed because Bisu pioneered a style that revolutionized the race even though it was dominant for some time, Iceman didn't need a nerf because he was dominant for some time, Phoenix doesn't necessarily need a nerf because she's been [increasingly less] dominant for some time. I'm not saying all balance changes are bad, I'm saying that we need TIME for this "evidence," of yours to build. You wouldn't make any sweeping conclusions by polling 500 out of 30 million Americans, and you shouldn't make sweeping conclusions based on a half-year old game. Who knows? Maybe over a few more months Phoenix players will find something new to do with her that makes her untouchable and the nerfs will be justified. Or maybe in a few months people will be able to shut her down so effectively that she's never a viable option again (*cough* Iceman). Knee-jerk reaction balance changes aren't going to help, I promise you that much. Something will always be broken for a period of time. If you just nerf nerf nerf or buff buff buff the moment something seems too good or too bad, then balance will not ever be achieved because you won't be giving anything enough time to figure out whether or not it is a real problem or a short-lived trend of dominance. Again, give it time. That's all I'm saying is give Phoenix, or whatever your balance problem of choice is, enough time to prove that they're a long-term problem instead of just complaining that you don't like how it is right now. Edit: Oh. Shit, can't believe I put that much effort responding to a troll. Well played. Very well said. From the looks of it, it looks like capcom is only nerfing Phoenix's escape/zoning/ tools/survivability tools so it can be easier to kill her when you snapback her in. I honestly don't think this is needed because, like you said, people have already found answers to her. That being said, I fear wolvie more than jean nowadays. | ||
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