On July 31 2011 19:38 Mannerheim wrote: No, pretty much every top player agrees that Dark Phoenix is bullshit, which was more than enough incentive for Capcom to nerf her in Ultimate. Ditto for Wolverine and X-Factor as well, even if they weren't bonkers broken, people just don't like how they affect the game, and Capcom took notice.
The nerfs are coming, and the vast majority of the players welcome them with open arms, just accept it.
People whose livelihoods depend on their tournament results agreeing that she is too strong doesn't mean nerfing her with shit for evidence that she actually is too strong is the right choice. Holy fuck. How are you this thick?
If anyone wants to present an actual argument as to why it's a good idea to nerf things on reaction without giving them enough time to prove themselves to be actual threads, feel free to post. I'm done with thick headed trolls.
On July 31 2011 19:26 Scribble wrote: Are you acting intentionally thick? Yes, Blizzard did make drastic balance changes. Yes, Capcom will make drastic balance changes regardless of the outcome of this argument. I'm not trying to convince them not to because they aren't reading this bloody TL thread. My point, to you and everyone moaning about things being too powerful in a game less than 6 months old, is that knee-jerk nerfs aren't necessary.
You're right about my observation about the top 8 character breakdown being off. There's 1 more Phoenix than there are She-hulks, Mags, Akumas, Dantes, and Taskmasters, and just as many Wolverines and Weskers.
Also, Idra isn't the only top level Zerg saying that the race still needs help whether it be a direct buff or nerfs to the other 2 races. Nestea has been pretty vocal about the state of the race. You know what the conundrum is with trusting the best of the best when it comes to balance? They're fonts of useful information because they have the deepest understanding of their game[s], but they're also way too invested in performing well to be reliable.
You are correct about half the cast of MvC2 being non-viable. Magneto/Storm/Sentinel/Doom/Strider/Psylock and a few others dominate pretty hard and they have for quite some time. If Capcom were to go back and patch MvC2 now, I wouldn't have a problem with it because TIME has proven these characters to be a problem.
And that is what it boils down to. Some characters feel broken right now. Iceman felt broken too when he was new. But lo and behold, it turns out that there were strategies and characters much stronger, characters which to this day are the best in the game. If they had nerfed Iceman then, what would it have changed in the long run? Not a damn thing except people who enjoy him would have an even harder time playing him after he got figured out AND more broken characters emerged.
The "evidence" you keep dancing around without elaborating on indicates that Phoenix is becoming less of a problem. Like I said, compare Phoenix now to Phoenix a few months ago. A couple of months ago Phoenix players dominated and it took a huge stroke of luck to beat a Phoenix team. Right now though, people have started to figure her out and develop strategies to counter her. She still feels volatile, but you cannot deny that she isn't nearly as much of a threat now as she was and that is with just a few months of figuring her out.
Nostalgia isn't fueling my argument. History is. Protoss didn't need to be nerfed because Bisu pioneered a style that revolutionized the race even though it was dominant for some time, Iceman didn't need a nerf because he was dominant for some time, Phoenix doesn't necessarily need a nerf because she's been [increasingly less] dominant for some time.
I'm not saying all balance changes are bad, I'm saying that we need TIME for this "evidence," of yours to build. You wouldn't make any sweeping conclusions by polling 500 out of 30 million Americans, and you shouldn't make sweeping conclusions based on a half-year old game.
Who knows? Maybe over a few more months Phoenix players will find something new to do with her that makes her untouchable and the nerfs will be justified. Or maybe in a few months people will be able to shut her down so effectively that she's never a viable option again (*cough* Iceman).
Knee-jerk reaction balance changes aren't going to help, I promise you that much. Something will always be broken for a period of time. If you just nerf nerf nerf or buff buff buff the moment something seems too good or too bad, then balance will not ever be achieved because you won't be giving anything enough time to figure out whether or not it is a real problem or a short-lived trend of dominance.
Again, give it time. That's all I'm saying is give Phoenix, or whatever your balance problem of choice is, enough time to prove that they're a long-term problem instead of just complaining that you don't like how it is right now.
Now, I realize that a lot of older people don't like change.
Edit: Oh. Shit, can't believe I put that much effort responding to a troll. Well played.
Very well said. From the looks of it, it looks like capcom is only nerfing Phoenix's escape/zoning/ tools/survivability tools so it can be easier to kill her when you snapback her in. I honestly don't think this is needed because, like you said, people have already found answers to her.
That being said, I fear wolvie more than jean nowadays.
I wouldn't be this against it if she was just as dominant now as she was then, but that's not the case. Even if she was, I'm not sure that the nerfs she got would completely justified anyway. Wolverine might be a different story because the dude actually looks more terrifying now than he did when everyone first realized he was a beast, and that was *before* Phoenix took off.
Still, one way or another the nerfs are coming. Like it or not, I'd be a hypocrite to not say that we'll just have to wait and see how things develop after they hit. It just leaves a bad taste in my mouth knowing that they're so willing to do this kind of knee-jerk bullshit between UMvC, the Sentinel change that hit I think 1 month after the game came out, and the freshly announced AE rebalance.
Oh. I'm surprised this hasn't come up yet, but no, I don't play Yun/Yang/Wolvie/Phoenix. Zerg, Akuma/Makoto, Task/Tron/Dormammu. :D
On July 31 2011 18:52 Necrophantasia wrote: I've been following the streams, but it's been incredibly hard to keep track of individual players without an actual official bracket.
But I have a question. Does anyone know how Kayo Police actually did? I saw two of his matches that he won, but he is not present in the top 32. So, I'm a bit curious to see how he did seeing as how he is regarded as a top tier C.viper in Japan.
i saw her/his all matches in tekken (lili), first lost, in losers bracket win and lose in match for spot in finals
On July 31 2011 19:38 Mannerheim wrote: No, pretty much every top player agrees that Dark Phoenix is bullshit, which was more than enough incentive for Capcom to nerf her in Ultimate. Ditto for Wolverine and X-Factor as well, even if they weren't bonkers broken, people just don't like how they affect the game, and Capcom took notice.
The nerfs are coming, and the vast majority of the players welcome them with open arms, just accept it.
People whose livelihoods depend on their tournament results agreeing that she is too strong doesn't mean nerfing her with shit for evidence that she actually is too strong is the right choice. Holy fuck. How are you this thick?
If anyone wants to present an actual argument as to why it's a good idea to nerf things on reaction without giving them enough time to prove themselves to be actual threads, feel free to post. I'm done with thick headed trolls.
Whether or not she's "actually" too strong makes no difference at all. This is not a science. A huge majority (of players and spectators alike) don't like how she works right now, it's in Capcoms best interest to do something about it to ensure the success and continuation of the franchise.
But it's better to stop this discussion now, you're getting way too salty over a character in a game.
Pretty sure the franchise will stay successful regardless of what they do. Look back at MvC2 and the many many many mags/sent hate threads. Did capcom do anything about it? Was the game a huge success? Was MvC3 heavily anticipated because the success of MvC2?
On July 31 2011 19:26 Scribble wrote: Are you acting intentionally thick? Yes, Blizzard did make drastic balance changes. Yes, Capcom will make drastic balance changes regardless of the outcome of this argument. I'm not trying to convince them not to because they aren't reading this bloody TL thread. My point, to you and everyone moaning about things being too powerful in a game less than 6 months old, is that knee-jerk nerfs aren't necessary...
...I'm not saying all balance changes are bad, I'm saying that we need TIME for this "evidence," of yours to build. You wouldn't make any sweeping conclusions by polling 500 out of 30 million Americans, and you shouldn't make sweeping conclusions based on a half-year old game.
Who knows? Maybe over a few more months Phoenix players will find something new to do with her that makes her untouchable and the nerfs will be justified. Or maybe in a few months people will be able to shut her down so effectively that she's never a viable option again (*cough* Iceman).
Knee-jerk reaction balance changes aren't going to help, I promise you that much. Something will always be broken for a period of time. If you just nerf nerf nerf or buff buff buff the moment something seems too good or too bad, then balance will not ever be achieved because you won't be giving anything enough time to figure out whether or not it is a real problem or a short-lived trend of dominance.
Again, give it time. That's all I'm saying is give Phoenix, or whatever your balance problem of choice is, enough time to prove that they're a long-term problem instead of just complaining that you don't like how it is right now.
Now, I realize that a lot of older people don't like change.
Edit: Oh. Shit, can't believe I put that much effort responding to a troll. Well played.
I'm still not sure what you're trying to say. You keep saying "Time, Time!"...but we don't have time. We have four months before UMvC3 comes out. UMvC3 will destroy tech based on glitches (confirmed in current builds) and, in all probability, introduce new tech. All that can be done, that should be done, is to balance on what we have and know now, not "balance" on hypothetical tech that may or may not exist with completely different glitches a decade from now in a different game; playing "who knows" is a terrible game on all levels. Even though our knowledge isn't perfect, we have a much better idea of how this game plays now than we did when Capcom released this game. And what we have now is that Pheonix is almost universally regarded as broken, and she'll need fixing in UMvC3. If she's nerfed too hard on release day, Capcom can fix that. If it turns out she was nerfed too hard three years from now, Capcom could still fix that. Certainly inconceivable back in the "good old days" but hey, that's technology for you.
...actually, everyone knows there'll be a "super ultimate marvel" version out in another year just to milk sales, and they'll probably change around stuff even more then.
It's hard to believe that there won't be "Time, Time!" to pray for answers...but, well, there won't be a decade or even a year. At the very most, we'll have two and a half months, maybe three months, before they go gold. Thankfully, Capcom understands what you do not, and has fixed quite a few of her problems in recent builds. Wolverine's dive kick and Berserker Slash have also had substantial nerfs, and zoning characters have been buffed across the board. Tron's assist is much easier to punish from anecdotes, ditto with Haggar.
And hey, if JWong uses super tech tomorrow that turns Phoenix into a Goomba...Capcom will patch around that, too. There's absolutely no doubt we'll know more about the game two months from now than we do today and Capcom will have to adjust accordingly. But current builds for the next game should only keep in mind current, not wishful, circumstances.
On July 31 2011 19:57 Scribble wrote: People whose livelihoods depend on their tournament results agreeing that she is too strong doesn't mean nerfing her with shit for evidence that she actually is too strong is the right choice. Holy fuck. How are you this thick?
If anyone wants to present an actual argument as to why it's a good idea to nerf things on reaction without giving them enough time to prove themselves to be actual threads, feel free to post. I'm done with thick headed trolls.
People whose livelihoods depends on Phoenix...will adapt. The same way people whose livelihoods depended on the 5 Rax Reaper adapted to the upgrade change, build time increase, and Roach range. The same way people whose livelihoods depended on Protoss adapted to the Scarab AI and Disruptor Web nerf. And if they don't adapt, they'll lose.
Nothing is wrong with this. At all. One-dimensional players always fall out in the end.
On July 31 2011 20:25 Raimu wrote: Anyone know when AE finals start?
Sunday, July 31
Tournament Finals We have a few surprises in store between tournament finals all day. Tune in! 10:00 AM - 11:30 AM BlazBlue Continuum Shift 2 11:50 AM - 1:30 PM Tekken 6 2:00 PM - 3:30 PM Third Strike Exhibition 5:00 PM - 6:30 PM Marvel vs. Capcom 3 7:00 PM - 8:30 PM Super Street Fighter IV: Arcade Edition
On July 31 2011 20:26 Sirvantes7 wrote: Pretty sure the franchise will stay successful regardless of what they do. Look back at MvC2 and the many many many mags/sent hate threads. Did capcom do anything about it? Was the game a huge success? Was MvC3 heavily anticipated because the success of MvC2?
MvC2 was a Dreamcast title, in a time when the concept of balance patching on consoles didn't yet exist (not to mention the technology to implement it). By the time it did, there was no longer any financial incentive to touch the game (fighting games were dead, until SF4 revived the genre)
On July 31 2011 20:25 Raimu wrote: Anyone know when AE finals start?
Sunday, July 31
Tournament Finals We have a few surprises in store between tournament finals all day. Tune in! 10:00 AM - 11:30 AM BlazBlue Continuum Shift 2 11:50 AM - 1:30 PM Tekken 6 2:00 PM - 3:30 PM Third Strike Exhibition 5:00 PM - 6:30 PM Marvel vs. Capcom 3 7:00 PM - 8:30 PM Super Street Fighter IV: Arcade Edition
So that's like around 3.00 GMT monday morning.
Damn, I'll probably watch it on that guy's youtube channel the next morning then.
On July 31 2011 20:26 Sirvantes7 wrote: Pretty sure the franchise will stay successful regardless of what they do. Look back at MvC2 and the many many many mags/sent hate threads. Did capcom do anything about it? Was the game a huge success? Was MvC3 heavily anticipated because the success of MvC2?
MvC2 was a Dreamcast title, in a time when the concept of balance patching on consoles didn't yet exist (not to mention the technology to implement it). By the time it did, there was no longer any financial incentive to touch the game (fighting games were dead, until SF4 revived the genre)
Street Fighter 2 turbo, Super Street Fighter 2, ST, Street Fighter 3, Street Fighter 2nd Impact, Street Fighter Third Strike. All were game upgrades that tried to balance out the game mechanics. To me only ST was successful at this. 3S still has terrible matchups. (Chun vs Hugo).
Also, fighting games were only dead in the console scene. It was alive and well in the arcade scene.
Which was why there were plenty more upgrades (tekken 5, tekken 5 dr, vf4, vf4evo, vf4:ft) during your "death period."
And your "implementation" isn't much different than going to the store and buying the newest version. (SSF4). SSF4AE is the only exception to that. But even then you still had to pay for the "patch."
I would like to add that Soul Calibur 2 was out around the same time as MvC2. (Maybe a little before.) That game had 4 different version ver A - Ver D. Tekken 4 had atleast 3 ver A - ver C. And don't get me started with Virtua Fighter 3. Patches existed in early arcade fighting games, you just didn't see them because the console were based on the most current version. Which is why the console version is released years after the arcade version. (Even SF4 was out a year after the ac version.) Super Street Fighter 4 was the first fighting game that I know of that was actually out before the arcade version.
On July 31 2011 21:12 Sirvantes7 wrote: And your "implementation" isn't much different than going to the store and buying the newest version. (SSF4). SSF4AE is the only exception to that. But even then you still had to pay for the "patch."
Those times are more or less over now. MvC3 had a balance patch for Sentinel, AE will most likely get a balance patch later this year, MK9 has had several balance patches and fixes for infinites. All of them free and applied automatically.
If UMvC3 with its new content wasn't on the horizon, I'm pretty Capcom would've patched Phoenix/Wolvie/XF eventually anyways.
Wait, Tokido isn't in the Top 8 of MvC3??? For someone who missed it, can someone fill me on in how that happened? From the games I saw of him he looked absolutely untouchable :o
On August 01 2011 01:11 emperorchampion wrote: Wait, Tokido isn't in the Top 8 of MvC3??? For someone who missed it, can someone fill me on in how that happened? From the games I saw of him he looked absolutely untouchable :o
It happened off-stream. Probably because he's been practicing a lot of games. He made top 8 in AE BBC2 and T6 i think.
I just rewatched Justin vs Richard Nguyen and the reason why Richard goes for the aerial exchange in the last match instead of fatal claw was because he had no meter and Wolvie was in berserker slash mode.
Hey guys I'm not really familiar with fighting games mechanics so I have a question.
You see, I'd love to see all the MvC3 characters being used in competition. But, is it even possible? Could Capcom manage to tweak the game so that all the characters become usable in tournaments? Or will the game always have a handful of useless characters no matter what? Sorry for the ignorance and thanks for replying.
On August 01 2011 01:11 emperorchampion wrote: Wait, Tokido isn't in the Top 8 of MvC3??? For someone who missed it, can someone fill me on in how that happened? From the games I saw of him he looked absolutely untouchable :o
How is that any surprising? There is no competitive scene in Japan, so there is no one to train with. Also, he played BB, Tekken and MvC3 on the same day; so chances for an "early" dropout were higher.
On August 01 2011 01:11 emperorchampion wrote: Wait, Tokido isn't in the Top 8 of MvC3??? For someone who missed it, can someone fill me on in how that happened? From the games I saw of him he looked absolutely untouchable :o
How is that any surprising? There is no competitive scene in Japan, so there is no one to train with. Also, he played BB, Tekken and MvC3 on the same day; so chances for an "early" dropout were higher.
I was surprised because the games I saw he got near perfects. I was more wondering who knocked him out.
EPT
